Question for Paul Sage regarding vampires

MornaBaine

So when asked if vampires will ever have the ability to hide their vampiric appearance, Sage's answer is, "I don't know that we're ever going to offer that except through maybe disguises or costumes. But maybe disguises or costumes are the way to go. Part of the reason that is so people can tell who vampires are on the battlefield and, you know, so the populace can tell who the vampire is. So..." and he trails off and ends there.

What I would really like to understand is WHY Sage feels it's "important" for all other players to be able to tell who the vampires are at all times, both in PvE and PvP. In PvE you certainly cannot tell who the werewolves are unless they use their ultimate and transform. Why is it NOT important for werewolves to have some sort of constantly visible marker at all times if it truly IS important for vampires to have one?

Also, why is this important for PvP? No other skill line requires some sort of flashing neon sign saying, "Fighter's Guild ability-user here!" "Mage's Guild ability-user here!" "Undaunted ability-user here!" Looked at from that perspective, it really just makes no sense. IF being a vampire actually conferred vampire-like abilities simply by BEING a vampire, such as super strength, preternatural speed, and the ability to "Charm"/root an opposing player to the spot, AND super fast healing in addition to the simple skills one gets from the line that are really just some vampire-themed spells, I'd definitely understand why non-vampire players would need an ability to combat that advantage. But it's just not the case. So why does one need a magic "spot the vampire" button when they apparently don't need a "spot the healer" button? Why don't players have to choose targets in PvP by OBSERVATION and seeing what skills they actually use in order to determine who the biggest threat is? "Get the healer!" is pretty standard procedure...but you don't know who the healer IS until you see them throw a healing spell. Part of the reason we're able to use any armor and weapon for any class is so that we are NOT pigeonholed into the stereotypes and boring tropes virtually every other MMO is guilty of and THAT is a large part of the appeal of this game. But for reasons beyond my mere mortal comprehension, Sage has decided that vampires must all look like Max Schreck as Nosferatu at all times, a clear break with all previous ES lore.

***For clarity's sake I am editing to add the following for the readers of this thread who seem to keep getting confused: It is true that many of the player vampires in previous ES games do not look EXACTLY as they did as mortals. Skin tone DOES tend to vary slightly and the eyes get glowy. Typically, it looks SIMILAR to ESO's Stage 1 appearance. However, the later stages in ESO advance SO QUICKLY and are so utterly freakish looking that they cannot be denied or ignored and it causes your vampire to look glaringly obvious (not to mentin darned UGLY) MOST of the time. THAT is what is in such sharp contrast to the previous ES games. And that is what I, and many others, object to so strongly. ***

***EDITING TO ADD***
As this video (at 1:40) of the vampire quest shows, Lamae Bal, looking completely MORTAL by the way, says the following:
"Your kin live among the mortals. They may be wearing rags or crowns. They may hide within or rise above the masses. Find them. They await."

https://youtube.com/watch?v=KRQepUQ0OTU

If THAT does not indicate that vampires SHOULD and were INTENDED to be able to pass as mortals, I don't know what does.


But since Sage seems to strongly feel that it's important for players on the battlefield and "the populace" (one presumes this to mean both players and NPCs) to be able to clearly tell who the vampires are... I would really like to know WHY.

Please explain your reasoning Mr. Sage or have one of the many lovely folks who occasionally interact with us here in an official capacity explain it to us for you. Because I REALLY want to understand. Thank you.

phreatophile

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Especially since there is a spot the vampire skill one can slot from the fighters guild line.

Starting think the folks saying Vampires were an afterthought that ZOS doesn't particularly like are correct. If we can be highlighted by a skill, or picked out by cheaters from a distance using a third party addon like Srendarr we should have a lot more benefits and downsides than we do.

If we have to be able to picked out like that, you'd think we're a lot more dangerous than we are.

Nihili

MornaBaine wrote: »

But for reasons beyond my mere mortal comprehension, Sage has decided that vampires must all look like Max Schreck as Nosferatu at all times, a clear break with all previous ES lore.

I was about to argue that to allow vampires to so simply hide their monstrous appearance would be against ES lore, but you just covered that saying that NOT allowing it is breaking lore.
If you don't mind explaining why you think so I would greatly appreciate it?

WraithAzraiel

I've personally never seen a PvP whinepost entirely dedicated to not being able to see vampires on the battlefield.

Never seen it. The fact of that, to me, indicates that players even at the lowest skill level and amount of spatial awareness can tell a vampire from a non vampire.

The request is simple, allow us to retain mortal appearance at Stage 1, unless in Cyrodiil, or grant us a potion that only works at stage 1 but not in Cyrodiil. Putting limits on systems is a part of MMO's, this is no different.

phreatophile

Nihili wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

But for reasons beyond my mere mortal comprehension, Sage has decided that vampires must all look like Max Schreck as Nosferatu at all times, a clear break with all previous ES lore.

I was about to argue that to allow vampires to so simply hide their monstrous appearance would be against ES lore, but you just covered that saying that NOT allowing it is breaking lore.
If you don't mind explaining why you think so I would greatly appreciate it?

We've got a least 2 vampires who look mortal in eso, several in Skyrim, many in Oblivion.

MornaBaine

Nihili wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

But for reasons beyond my mere mortal comprehension, Sage has decided that vampires must all look like Max Schreck as Nosferatu at all times, a clear break with all previous ES lore.

I was about to argue that to allow vampires to so simply hide their monstrous appearance would be against ES lore, but you just covered that saying that NOT allowing it is breaking lore.
If you don't mind explaining why you think so I would greatly appreciate it?

Phreatophile answers you well but I would like the opportunity to expand upon that. Noxiphilic Sanguivoria, the strain of vampirism,( which is only one of many strains in existence in ES lore but is supposedly "common" in the era that ESO takes place in), is completely different from all other forms of vampirism in all previous ES games. Now, in the setting of an MMO it SEEMS that some changes would HAVE to be made. Stand alone ES vampires actually took damage from sunlight exposure. And I would agree that since ZoS, in their infinite wisdom, decided to make days last 6 hours with 4 of them being daylight hours, it is an unrealistic expectation that players would be content playing their vampires only during the hours of Tamriel darkness. Clearly, something had to give. So Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is unique in that it is a strain of vampirism that allows vampires to operate in the sun. Now, this IS lore breaking. No other vampire previous to this has had the innate ability to walk completely unscathed in the sunlight. While the reasons for it seem plain enough, I will emphasize once again, notwithstanding, it's lore breaking. NO OTHER VAMPIRE STRAIN ALLOWS FOR DAYWALKERS. Pardon the Blade reference. And I'll be returning to this point.

Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is also lore breaking in at least two other ways. For one, the compressed speed of the Stages. Vampires in Skyrim, in order to maintain a normal appearance, not take excessive damage, and basically maintain healthy functioning, only needed to feed ONCE in a 24 hour period. ONCE A DAY. Not TWELVE TIMES a day. This utterly ridiculous "feeding schedule" is not only lore breaking but completely illogical. As a vampire, how could you possibly NOT get caught if you were attacking 12 people a day? Forever? Even the most dedicated of serial killers would find that an impossible pace to keep up with.

And then, there's the way vampires of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria strain of vampirism LOOK. Even at Stage 1, where they aren't hideous, they are clearly inhuman. At Stage 2 it is even more apparent that there is something deeply wrong with them. At Stage 3 they are the stuff of nightmares. And at Stage 4 they are so glaringly monstrous that people should be fleeing from their presence shrieking in terror and guards and other do-gooders should be coming out of the woodwork to destroy them. Yet even OTHER VAMPIRES are completely oblivious to their condition. Obviously ESO vampires CAN hide their condition really, really, really well... from NPCs. Now apparently SOME of that is going to change but that is a subject separate from the ways in which Noxiphilic Sanguivoria are lore breaking. But it is glaringly apparent that the utter inability to "blend in" among humans and mer would quickly have led to utter extermination, not to a strain of vampirism as terribly common as Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is. This complete inability to "look normal" is utterly at odds with all previous ES vampires. Therefore, it is lore breaking.

Now, as promised, I will return to the subject of daywalking. Rather than being an innate strength of Noxiphilic Sanguivoria it could have been presented in a way that does NOT break lore. Therefore there is no excuse for it to exist in its current lore breaking state. Think about if for a minute. There are plenty of vampire mages. Don't you suppose that some of them would have turned their considerable talents and, given the span of years potentially available to them, would have developed and disseminated spells to deal with this problem of excessive sun damage? This could have easily been a vampire level 1 or 2 passive. It would have been a fun challenge to deal with the sun damage until the passive had been achieved. People keep saying, "You should have to work for it! Stop asking for freebies!" Well THAT would have been working for it! And the challenge might have been so fun for some of us that we might have chosen not to take the passive! Vampires should simply NOT be innately immune to sunlight. They should have to WORK for the ability to walk in the sun. Conversely, daywalking might have required a potion, expensive, that has to be taken once a day. Making the gold necessary to maintain one's ability to withstand the sun would ALSO be "working for it." These are just two ideas that would have allowed vampires to be legitimately playable in the setting of an MMO and would have presented a "downside" to help balance their strengths and abilities that would have actually been meaningful.

And as for the not only lore breaking but utterly illogical way vampires in ESO look? The mother" of your line, Lame Bal... looks like a normal human. Count Verandis Ravenwatch looks like a normal Elf when you first encounter him. But later, he very clearly seems to be of the Noxiphilic Sanguivoria line...even though he all but tells you that he, like Lamae Bal, is a Son of Coldharbor, having contracted his vampirism from the Lord of Schemes himself. He even tells you he "hides" his vampirism at the insistence of his friend High King Emeric. He doesn't say he has the innate ability to simply appear mortal as a byproduct of being a Son of Coldharbor. He tells you he HIDES his condition. Seems to me those long lived vampire sorcerers DID in fact discover the magical secret of disguising their lore breaking appearance. There is therefore no logical reason PLAYER vampires cannot do so as well. EDIT TO ADD: Of course, according to lore, there ARE NO Sons of Coldharbor, only Daughters. So despite what may be implied by Ravenwatch, he very well might NOT be created directly via Molag Bal like Lamae is.

Darn near everything about Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is lore breaking. Vampires as implemented in ESO are incredibly poorly done and were quite obviously shoehorned in at the last possible moment due to player demand. Simply, we were thrown a sop for the sake of subscriptions when it became apparent that there were a considerable number of ES fans who would not play ESO unless their beloved vampires and werewolves were available. We got them both half-baked and lore breaking. It's high time ZoS admitted this and put them back in the oven to finish.

So...THAT is why ESO vampires are lore breaking. Now, aren't you glad you asked?

And finally, you cannot "break lore" by asking for things that mitigate ALREADY BROKEN lore.

ShadowHvo

Honestly though, claiming it to be lore-breaking is outright wrong. It's additions to the lore. The elder Scrolls lore is made in such a way that most we get told -can- be biased opinions. The only things we can be 100% sure about is the events and happenings we ourselves as players see in the actual games, and what the devs otherwise outright confirm.

Neither is Noxiphilic Sanguivoria the only bloodline able to walk in the sun, the Cyrodiilic Vampyrum Order in particular are able to walk in the sun as long as they have fed within 24 hours. The Sanguinare Vampiris could also walk under broaddaylight, they do however get severely weakened by it. But they can still operate without the fear of dying from the sun's rays.

While I'm fully up for the option of players receiving a vanity item to attain their normal mortal appearance. Claiming that Zenimax "Broke the lore" with Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is just false. We know from previous ES titles that the many different vampiric bloodlines / strains can be completely different, so having Noxiphilic Sanguivoria be a strain with less Vampiric benefit, in return for the ability to never fear the sun's rays, and instead get more powerful at night isn't quite far fetched.

The coolest thing however, in my opinion would be if we got more vampire strains and types of lycanthropy to choose from. That would be cool as hell.


EDIT:
For some reason I wrote vanity pet.. changed it to item since pet would make little to no sense.

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Honestly though, claiming it to be lore-breaking is outright wrong. It's additions to the lore. The elder Scrolls lore is made in such a way that most we get told -can- be biased opinions. The only things we can be 100% sure about is the events and happenings we ourselves as players see in the actual games, and what the devs otherwise outright confirm.

Neither is Noxiphilic Sanguivoria the only bloodline able to walk in the sun, the Cyrodiilic Vampyrum Order in particular are able to walk in the sun as long as they have fed within 24 hours. The Sanguinare Vampiris could also walk under broaddaylight, they do however get severely weakened by it. But they can still operate without the fear of dying from the sun's rays.

While I'm fully up for the option of players receiving a vanity item to attain their normal mortal appearance. Claiming that Zenimax "Broke the lore" with Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is just false. We know from previous ES titles that the many different vampiric bloodlines / strains can be completely different, so having Noxiphilic Sanguivoria be a strain with less Vampiric benefit, in return for the ability to never fear the sun's rays, and instead get more powerful at night isn't quite far fetched.

The coolest thing however, in my opinion would be if we got more vampire strains and types of lycanthropy to choose from. That would be cool as hell.


EDIT:
For some reason I wrote vanity pet.. changed it to item since pet would make little to no sense.

I can accept your contention that Noxiphilic Sanguivoria is not lore breaking because the devs are pretty much at liberty to make up whatever they want for this version of ES reality. In other words, they make the lore. But then, by the same token, if they DO decide to give players some cosmetic options regarding their vampire's appearance that is also NOT lore breaking. Too many people (not saying you are one of them) seem to want it both ways. It simply makes no sense to say, "Well ZoS decided this is the way it is so that's lore. But if ZoS were to listen to player requests and add and/or change things, then somehow that would NOT be lore and would be lore breaking." I keep trying to figure out how that makes sense but the fact is that is just doesn't.

ShadowHvo

Some kind of vanity item which "BY LORE" would be an enchanted necklace or something wouldn't be lorebreaking at all. Even if the vampire were a simple illusionist (With illusion magic ofc) would be able to hide their true nature, in favor for their normal mortal appearance. That would be my guess on how Verandis does it himself.

Hell, we have an INGAME crystal, which we can somehow activate (Through means only the devs know) which casts an illusion to trick others to see us as a skeleton. Using the very same magic to appear as one's mortal self isn't lore-breaking the slightest.

Honestly though, we tend to agree MornaBaine, espically on the roleplay forums too. Just let the haters hate and keep on trying to change the Devs current view on their (Sadly) lame excuse for vampirism in a ES game.

Now I shall send in my 56th email to Zenimax, begging for them to remove my nose in stage four and let me burn in the sunlight...

MornaBaine

ShadowHvo wrote: »

Some kind of vanity item which "BY LORE" would be an enchanted necklace or something wouldn't be lorebreaking at all. Even if the vampire were a simple illusionist (With illusion magic ofc) would be able to hide their true nature, in favor for their normal mortal appearance. That would be my guess on how Verandis does it himself.

Hell, we have an INGAME crystal, which we can somehow activate (Through means only the devs know) which casts an illusion to trick others to see us as a skeleton. Using the very same magic to appear as one's mortal self isn't lore-breaking the slightest.

Honestly though, we tend to agree MornaBaine, espically on the roleplay forums too. Just let the haters hate and keep on trying to change the Devs current view on their (Sadly) lame excuse for vampirism in a ES game.

Now I shall send in my 56th email to Zenimax, begging for them to remove my nose in stage four and let me burn in the sunlight...

A voice of reason in the wilderness! LOL I KNOW I shouldn't let myself get bogged down in the "it's lore/it not lore" conversational traps. They aren't people, by and large, trying to argue a logical point...they're just trying to argue. Thanks for reminding me there are sane people in this game...and that some of them actually visit these forums from time to time.

MornaBaine

So...is this where posts originally put in General Discussion are put to die? Just wondering.

MornaBaine

Well I guess this is as good a place as any to be ignored. LOL

Minnesinger

If you want realism make vampires vulnerable to the Sun and chased by others.

Of course, the vampires´s capability to move outdoors in a clear sunlight is practical as it would be great deal of harder to play a vamp if their health bar starts sliding down for their vulnerability to it. Also, the vampires aren´t lynched by villagers for their morbid tendency to suck the blood of common people. None seem to care their presence.

I have 2 vampires and plan to play more, but the lack of hatred by their victims is clearly missing. Thus, making them visible in PvP to all players slotting 1 skill makes sense to me.

More challenging times to come.

MornaBaine

Minnesinger wrote: »

If you want realism make vampires vulnerable to the Sun and chased by others.

Of course, the vampires´s capability to move outdoors in a clear sunlight is practical as it would be great deal of harder to play a vamp if their health bar starts sliding down for their vulnerability to it. Also, the vampires aren´t lynched by villagers for their morbid tendency to suck the blood of common people. None seem to care their presence.

I have 2 vampires and plan to play more, but the lack of hatred by their victims is clearly missing. Thus, making them visible in PvP to all players slotting 1 skill makes sense to me.

More challenging times to come.

All of this just goes to show that vampires were incredibly poorly implemented and are in desperate need of an overhaul all around. Immune to daylight? They really should not be. They should have to employ additional magic to remain unscathed in the sun. That could be implemented in a variety of ways. A potion. A "daywalker" set of armor. A passive skill not available until Vamp Level 3. A ring. A trophy type item that must be slotted. In all instances being indoors or underground in some dungeon removes the sun damage and keeping to shadows should only cause half the damage that being in direct sunlight would cause. THAT would make vamps a challenge to play and yet still make them viable during daylight.

phreatophile

MornaBaine wrote: »

So...is this where posts originally put in General Discussion are put to die? Just wondering.

Possibly, just have to keep it alive.

Give us mortal or very close to mortal appearance at stage 1, and make it last an hour or two. Problem solved without the addition of some kind of silly macguffin that we must equip in place of a costume we might prefer.

MornaBaine

phreatophile wrote: »

MornaBaine wrote: »

So...is this where posts originally put in General Discussion are put to die? Just wondering.

Possibly, just have to keep it alive.

Give us mortal or very close to mortal appearance at stage 1, and make it last an hour or two. Problem solved without the addition of some kind of silly macguffin that we must equip in place of a costume we might prefer.

Indeed. Because I wasn't content to just click on "Agree."

MornaBaine

I ALSO KEEP GETTING THE NOTICE TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT THIS LATEST ANSWER ANSWERS MY QUESTION BUT THERE IS NO NEW ANSWER FOR ME TO CONSIDER. ZOS STAFF, PLEASE FIX THIS SO I QUITE GETTING THIS NOTIFICATION AND RETURN MY QUESTION TO QUESTION STATUS. THANK YOU.

MornaBaine

This question is STILL showing INCORRECTLY as being answered. Please stop ignoring this and fix it ZoS Staff. Thank you.

MornaBaine

STILL not fixed and I keep CONSTANTLY getting the notification that my question has been answered and I need to accept or reject the answers....and of course there is no new answer to either accept or reject. At least one thing seems to be confirmed, this is indeed where ZoS staff sends topics to die as clearly even THEY don't read anything here.

nightwalkerrobin_ESO

I also keep getting those notifications and I cannot even find the posts that were questions. I doubt they will ever fix it.

MornaBaine

Thank you to whoever finally fixed this! NOW...if I could just ever get an answer...

nightwalkerrobin_ESO

The answer is the hard part for them.

MornaBaine

nightwalkerrobin_ESO wrote: »

The answer is the hard part for them.

Apparently so.

MornaBaine

So has Sage EVER answered a question on the forums. Or just reddit?

phreatophile

Paul doesn't answer questions, they answer to him.

matbarliabriub17_ESO

I do agree that it is different from the lore we are introduced to so far. This being so remember that we are in a prequel and that some lore is bound to be lost from time throughout the ages. Not every vampire lore book has been found just as in real life new civilizations and new facts or insights into past civilizations are always on the horizon. Perhaps in some future version of Elder Scrolls they will find some ancient civilization that gives us the lore of the ESO vampires, and how they are extinct in future times because of some great arch-mage alchemist who found a - dare I say - some kind of vaccine. Who knows I might take a stab at writing the lore for fun. So I think I might challenge you skeptics to come up with something that explains the lore you are not yet familiar with. Find a way, use your infinite creativity and phenomenal grammar skills and give to us a book called perhaps-- "The Daywalkers"

MornaBaine

Still not answered. Mr. Sage?

MornaBaine

Wonder if this might be addressed in the upcoming Road Ahead. Hey I can dream, can't I?

MornaBaine

MornaBaine wrote: »

Wonder if this might be addressed in the upcoming Road Ahead. Hey I can dream, can't I?

So, nope, that didn't happen. Anyone know if vampires were mentioned in the live stream?

MornaBaine

So Stage 4 vampires WILL be treated as if they are criminals in the Justice System as has been confirmed in the Livestream. So, Mr. Sage... since we know that even the NPCs will finally be able to tell what a vampire is at Stage 4 but, presumably not at the other 3 Stages...does it STILL make any sort of sense for those previous Stages to be visually apparent? If so, why?

Ophindis

I don't even remember what my character looks like.