Why are Damage/Crit combos such difficult concepts for ZOS to implement?

LonePirate

So I was reading a thread on Reddit about an effective DK build someone was using. Inside the thread was this whopper of a comment related to Lava Whip, a DK Class skill that requires Magicka just like every other Class skill in the game:

no weapon critical. whip is spell damage and weapon critical crushing shock weapon damage and spell damage.....

http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2jxx9x/dk_dps_crushing_shock_build/clgg63q

Why in the world is a Magicka based Class skill using Weapon Critical instead of Spell Critical?

Most players are going to apply common sense to their builds. This means they are going to adopt the common sense belief that if a skill requires Magicka to use (like every Class skill in the game) then it will utilize Spell Damage and Spell Crit in its final damage output. Similarly, if a skill requires Stamina to use (like most weapon skills), then the skill will utilize Weapon Damage and Weapon Crit.

The only exceptions to these common sense principles are the light and heavy attacks for Destruction and Restoration staves as they are being used as weapons in those instances rather than as spell casting tools. Weapon Damage and Weapon Crit would come into play for these light and heavy attacks. Otherwise, their Magicka based weapon attacks should use Spell Damage and Spell Crit.

Why is this concept such a difficult one for ZOS to implement? Can anyone from ZOS explain why there are skills which do not use the common sense Damage/Crit combos which players expect? Perhaps more importantly, how do we go about getting skills like this one and others changed so they all use the obvious Damage/Crit combo which players would expect them to use?

Then there is the related mystery of the Crushing Shock skill for the Destruction Staff which uses Magicka and is delivers output based on Spell Damage and Weapon Damage. How in the world are ordinary players supposed to know or realize these things? At they very least, tool tips should explain these unexpected situations to players.

Aeratus

Even the devs themselves are confused apparantly.

If you look at the new patch 1.4 set called Destruction Mastery, which gives bonuses while carrying a destro staff, the set has a bonus to SPELL damage. The only problem is that destro staff spells use WEAPON damage.

Athas24

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff. Bows should use weapon crit etc. It's confusing when trying to build your character because you need to cross check which abilities you are going to use and if they run off spell or weapon crit. Grr.

khele23eb17_ESO

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff. Bows should use weapon crit etc. It's confusing when trying to build your character because you need to cross check which abilities you are going to use and if they run off spell or weapon crit. Grr.

Isnt it quite simple in fact? Close range magicka abilities use weapon crit (theyre usually attacks with some sort of summoned melee weapon), long range spells use spell crit. No confusion here.

Also, do you really want to make light armor even more powerful and prevalent at the cost of medium armor?

Dymence

LonePirate wrote: »

*snip*

You found out about this just now? Haha, go look at nightblades. Over half of their class spells are using weapon crit.

Dymence

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff.

Staves are using spell crit. The thing with staves is that they are using weapon damage and not spell damage.

Vizier

So how is it a summoned weapon wouldn't use weapon critical? Does Magic swing your arm? I don't see a problem.

Aeratus

Dymence wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff.

Staves are using spell crit. The thing with staves is that they are using weapon damage and not spell damage.

The reason staves are designed to use weapon damage is probably that when any weapon is upgraded, it increases in weapon damage. This is because there is only one "damage" type across all types of weapons.

What I propose is that stave attacks (both basic and skills) should be based on a separate damage value that is based on (spell damage + x), where x is the value that increases when the quality of the staff improves. So staves are scaled at (spell damage + x) while class skills remain scaled to just spell damage.

LonePirate

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff. Bows should use weapon crit etc. It's confusing when trying to build your character because you need to cross check which abilities you are going to use and if they run off spell or weapon crit. Grr.

Isnt it quite simple in fact? Close range magicka abilities use weapon crit, long range spells use spell crit. No confusion here.

I'm sorry but there is plenty of confusion here. If I use a skill that requires Magicka, then I am casting a spell so that skill should use Spell Damage and Spell Crit. There is absolutely no need for the extra and ridiculous condition of if the skill has a range less than X meters, then it uses Weapon Crit instead of Spell Crit. That extra condition is nonsensical and completely counter-intuitive. Not only that but what if I use a long range ability at close range? Why does it still use Spell Crit? How are players to know where the dividing line is?

Plain and simple, ZOS needs to fix these items and make them consistent and make them meet common sense expectations.

Dymence

Aeratus wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff.

Staves are using spell crit. The thing with staves is that they are using weapon damage and not spell damage.

The reason staves are designed to use weapon damage is probably that when any weapon is upgraded, it increases in weapon damage. This is because there is only one "damage" type across all types of weapons.

What I propose is that stave attacks (both basic and skills) should be based on a separate damage value that is based on (spell damage + x), where x is the value that increases when the quality of the staff improves. So staves are scaled at (spell damage + x) while class skills remain scaled to just spell damage.

I didn't say there was anything wrong with staves using weapon damage. I was merely clearing up the previous poster's misconception.

khele23eb17_ESO

LonePirate wrote: »

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Athas24 wrote: »

Ya the entire system needs to stick with magicka for spell crit abilities and stamina use for weapon crit abilities. Even staves IMO should be based on spell crit because it is technically a spell projected from the staff. Bows should use weapon crit etc. It's confusing when trying to build your character because you need to cross check which abilities you are going to use and if they run off spell or weapon crit. Grr.

Isnt it quite simple in fact? Close range magicka abilities use weapon crit, long range spells use spell crit. No confusion here.

I'm sorry but there is plenty of confusion here. If I use a skill that requires Magicka, then I am casting a spell so that skill should use Spell Damage and Spell Crit. There is absolutely no need for the extra and ridiculous condition of if the skill has a range less than X meters, then it uses Weapon Crit instead of Spell Crit. That extra condition is nonsensical and completely counter-intuitive. Not only that but what if I use a long range ability at close range? Why does it still use Spell Crit? How are players to know where the dividing line is?

Plain and simple, ZOS needs to fix these items and make them consistent and make them meet common sense expectations.

Close range attacks with summoned weapons you physically swing - weapon crit, long range magickal projectile attacks - spell crit. That IS consistent. Not the way you personally wish it were, but still plenty consistent. And its a balance thing.

However, since we are in the wishful thinking territory... I would love to see some changes too. Id be very happy if they allowed you to morph any skill so that it can use any combination of resource/crit/damage scaling you might need for your build. Not going to happen but it would be great.

guybrushtb16_ESO

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Close range attacks with summoned weapons you physically swing - weapon crit, long range magickal projectile attacks - spell crit. That IS consistent. Not the way you personally wish it were, but still plenty consistent. And its a balance thing.

Sorry, but while some clear cases are more or less consistent, the system as a whole is just ridiculous. Sure, it is somehow possible to figure out which is which, if you extensively rely on outside sources, but the system is still horribly convoluted and unintuitive, and there are numerous borderline cases where it's even less clear, for example:

1. Impale becomes ranged through a morph, yet still retains weapon crit
2. Unstable Flame is melee crit for the initial hit, spell crit for the dot whereas acid spray is melee for the hit and the dot (this actually got changed after release)
3. Ultimates now apparently scale with the higher of either magicka or stamina, but what do they crit with? Does it change or is it just the higher of both again? Do they scale with weapon/spellpower at all?
4. About Guild skils honestly I'm even less sure. Last time I looked, I believe silver bolts scaled with stamina, spellpower and... I don't know what it crits with. Neither do I know about caltrops or the support skills for that matter.

So even if we accept that this is just for balance's sake, the fact that it's horribly horribly unintuitive and that the game never ever tells you about literally anything at all are just very bad design. Especially since the game urges you to chose your skills and equipment according to information it never gives you at all.

Aeratus wrote: »

Even the devs themselves are confused apparantly.

If you look at the new patch 1.4 set called Destruction Mastery, which gives bonuses while carrying a destro staff, the set has a bonus to SPELL damage. The only problem is that destro staff spells use WEAPON damage.

Obviously that must be because they wanted to encourage class/weapon skill hybrids, right? -_-

LonePirate

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno

This would be a great opportunity or discussion thread for someone from ZOS (be it a dev or content manager or anyone with knowledge) to chime in here and either add clarity and explanations or a broad vision of the future. This stuff affects every player in the game, even those who are unaware. This topic would also be an ideal segment for ESO Live where a broader, more informative discussion could occur.