My first experience in Craglorn as a solo VR10

spoqster

TL;DR: Very disappointed because the quests require you to be in a group.

First of all I noticed that Craglorn is very challenging. Taking on these groups by yourself requires concentration and just the right build. Without the perfect balance of protection, healing, resource management and damage capabilities it is almost not doable.

But after endless whacking through the solo quests this was finally fun. The funnest part I had so far was killing Kareth of Shadows by myself (some guy helped for around 10k damage, but died and didn't come back). This fight took over 4 minutes of highest concentration, resource management and patience. What a hoot! I did 78k damage, so I was at around 320 DPS.

So I was having great amounts of fun when I discovered that the quests actually require you to be in a group. This was such a huge downturn. The story is really great, finally, finally the fights are challenging, and then the game disallows me to play it? I am really disappointed.

There are multiple problems with this:

• First: Questing is an immersion thing. You read, you feel, you let yourself go into the story. This is only possible alone, or with really, really good friends that have the same speed as you. Questing is not fun if you feel like someone is waiting for you to finish reading. It's great if some people quest together, but I think most people prefer to do it alone. Questing alone, sports (arena, dungeons, pvp) with other people. (EDIT: I started this poll to back up my claim.)
• And second: If I played this Craglorn in a group of 3 or 4 people it wouldn't be fun anymore! It's fun at this difficulty level. These fights get boring as soon as a single random person shows up to help you. I've actually asked other players to stay back and let me fight alone. Not because I am asocial, but because of the challenge. I want to know that I have killed a group or a boss by myself. And if someone helps me I go back, wait for the respawn and do it again by myself.

What is my point? ZOS, you did a GREAT job designing Craglorn, it's beautiful, the story is good (as far as I can tell), it's engaging and challenging. But why did you make it group only? You could have given players the chance to play some great and challenging single player content while still creating a group zone for players who don't want the challenge. Why the restriction?

@ZOS_PaulSage‌

Akula

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

CoolsHisHands

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

Came to this thread to post exactly this.

spoqster

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

You don't get it, do you?

1. It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.
2. Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.
3. Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Akula

spoqster wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

You don't get it, do you?

1. It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.
2. Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.
3. Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

So if you have something constructive to say, say it, but please refrain from trolling my post.

If your post happened to be constructive, maybe you would receive constructive feedback. But whining about the inability of being able to solo CL, a area designed for groups, is not constructive feedback.

CoolsHisHands

spoqster wrote: »

It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.

"I'm so great, I can solo this stuff. I'm awesome. Let me do Craglorn solo, don't force me into a group!"

spoqster wrote: »

Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.

"Quests in Craglorn should be more difficult so people want to group up instead of forcing them to group using game mechanics. I say this, even though exactly 3 seconds ago I said I wanted to do everything solo."

For the record, I play a support class, and the quests in Craglorn are impossible for me without a group. I'd really like to stop by sometime and watch you solo stuff like Trials of Rahni'Za, and Shada's Tear. Those should be a piece of cake for you, right? Do you have a Twitch stream? I am serious.

spoqster wrote: »

Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

Erock25

Akula wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

You don't get it, do you?

1. It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.
2. Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.
3. Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

So if you have something constructive to say, say it, but please refrain from trolling my post.

If your post happened to be constructive, maybe you would receive constructive feedback. But whining about the inability of being able to solo CL, a area designed for groups, is not constructive feedback.

I wasn't aware that for something to be constructive it had to fit your own personal agenda.

I agree completely with the OP. I do dungeons for grouping content. I quest when I want to take my time and get involved in a story or I am otherwise occupied with things going on in the real world (have to check on dinner or eat dinner or look up what to make for dinner or daydream about dinner).

I have about 7 or so lower crag quests going right now that I've completed solo up until a point where I need 2-3 other people to activate the next sequence. I understand a zone with a difficulty that is tuned for groups but making it so the build min/maxing soloist can't proceed even though his character is powerful enough to do so is pretty ridiculous.

spryler

What about the quests requires you to be in a group? Why can't you just solo all the quests like you solo the world bosses and such?

Erock25

spryler wrote: »

What about the quests requires you to be in a group? Why can't you just solo all the quests like you solo the world bosses and such?

They require you to have three - four people to complete certain objectives like activating four items at once, or standing in four places at once, etc.

RSram

I agree with OP's questing analysis. Quest phasing/Syncing has been a on going problem with group content.

I don't agree with the rest of the post.

ESO is trying to make the most money it can by catering to both the solo, group, and PVP players. Not an easy task if you been reading the forums lately.

I have over 1000 hours playing solo between 5 characters, but you can't beat the fun and teamwork that is required to make through the group dungeons; especially the first run when you don't know what to expect. I suggest all the group content haters join a guild and try group content, its fun.

You also contradict yourself in your OP. You state that you didn't want any help to fight a battle, because having another player would make it too easy, but then you go on and comment that you can't finish the Craglorn dungeons because they are too hard for solo?

ESO is working on a new solo PvE zone called Wrothgar which should be available next spring, I believe. Don't forget the Dark Brotherhood and Thief's guild quest lines that are coming.

Sharee

I have to agree. I went in solo, trying to do the main quest, got through some tough fights like soloing an anomaly, it was a fun challenge.
Then hit a brick wall "you need to stand at three floor plates at once" at which point i said eff it and went back to cyrodiil.

spoqster

CoolsHisHands wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.

"I'm so great, I can solo this stuff. I'm awesome. Let me do Craglorn solo, don't force me into a group!"

spoqster wrote: »

Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.

"Quests in Craglorn should be more difficult so people want to group up instead of forcing them to group using game mechanics. I say this, even though exactly 3 seconds ago I said I wanted to do everything solo."

For the record, I play a support class, and the quests in Craglorn are impossible for me without a group. I'd really like to stop by sometime and watch you solo stuff like Trials of Rahni'Za, and Shada's Tear. Those should be a piece of cake for you, right? Do you have a Twitch stream? I am serious.

spoqster wrote: »

Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

Which part of Shada's Tear are you referring to, and what are the Trials of Rahni'Za?

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

spoqster

RSram wrote: »

I have over 1000 hours playing solo between 5 characters, but you can't beat the fun and teamwork that is required to make through the group dungeons; especially the first run when you don't know what to expect. I suggest all the group content haters join a guild and try group content, its fun.

You also contradict yourself in your OP. You state that you didn't want any help to fight a battle, because having another player would make it too easy, but then you go on and comment that you can't finish the Craglorn dungeons because they are too hard for solo?

Group content is loads of fun! I love it! I love the Veteran Dungeons, they are fantastic! I just think questing is about immersion and thus a solo thing.

I don't contradict myself. I could do most world stuff in Craglorn solo. Here I was referring to the traditional Veteran Dungeons. Try doing Darkshade Caverns by yourself. I can't imagine a build that can handle it.

Rune_Relic

Surely there's a spell that lets me be in four places at once

Magdalina

spoqster wrote: »

TL;DR: Very disappointed because the quests require you to be in a group.

First of all I noticed that Craglorn is very challenging. Taking on these groups by yourself requires concentration and just the right build. Without the perfect balance of protection, healing, resource management and damage capabilities it is almost not doable.

But after endless whacking through the solo quests this was finally fun. The funnest part I had so far was killing Kareth of Shadows by myself (some guy helped for around 10k damage, but died and didn't come back). This fight took over 4 minutes of highest concentration, resource management and patience. What a hoot! I did 78k damage, so I was at around 320 DPS.

So I was having great amounts of fun when I discovered that the quests actually require you to be in a group. This was such a huge downturn. The story is really great, finally, finally the fights are challenging, and then the game disallows me to play it? I am really disappointed.

There are multiple problems with this:

• First: Questing is an immersion thing. You read, you feel, you let yourself go into the story. This is only possible alone, or with really, really good friends that have the same speed as you. Questing is not fun if you feel like someone is waiting for you to finish reading. It's great if some people quest together, but I think most people prefer to do it alone. Questing alone, sports (arena, dungeons, pvp) with other people.
• And second: If I played this Craglorn in a group of 3 or 4 people it wouldn't be fun anymore! It's fun at this difficulty level. These fights get boring as soon as a single random person shows up to help you. I've actually asked other players to stay back and let me fight alone. Not because I am asocial, but because of the challenge. I want to know that I have killed a group or a boss by myself. And if someone helps me I go back, wait for the respawn and do it again by myself.

What is my point? ZOS, you did a GREAT job designing Craglorn, it's beautiful, the story is good (as far as I can tell), it's engaging and challenging. But why did you make it group only? You could have given players the chance to play some great and challenging single player content while still creating a group zone for players who don't want the challenge. Why the restriction?

@ZOS_PaulSage‌

What do you mean? There're, iirc, 2 quests in Lower Crag that you HAVE to be in a group for, Critical Mass and Missing Guardian or whatever last quest in mainstory is called, and that's purely because you need 4 people to press 4 buttons for you at the same time.

You will need 1-2 other people for certain bosses at different quests/delves, but if you're good - and you say you are, so it shouldn't be an issue - you can perfectly solo most delves and most of main storyline on your own. I mean, originally you're supposed to group but no one forbids you to try to solo it(except for the few cases listed above).
And I agree on difficulty, I solo'd most of Crag delves, was great fun. 3 manning some of them with a couple of friends actually made it disappointingly easy, like normal solo delve style easy. But if it's easy, again, you don't absolutely have to group for it, for the most part.

While at that, I suggest you try soloing Haddock's Market delve Heaps of fun to be had.

Upper Cralorn, now, is a completely different story and poses a perfectly valid challenge even for 3 people.

EDIT: Oh yes, and you will want all 4 people for Shada, and they better be good. But Shada is special, I swear I wiped less in COH than on her XD

Akula

Erock25 wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

spoqster wrote: »

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

You don't get it, do you?

1. It's too easy for being group content, otherwise people wouldn't be able to play solo.
2. Why *force* people to group up? Why not just create it so that it is so hard that most people will play in a group, rather than actually putting restrictions on the quests? People can play VR dungeons alone, but they are so hard that it is almost impossible if you are not 4 people.
3. Quests don't make too much sense in groups in the first place.

So if you have something constructive to say, say it, but please refrain from trolling my post.

If your post happened to be constructive, maybe you would receive constructive feedback. But whining about the inability of being able to solo CL, a area designed for groups, is not constructive feedback.

I wasn't aware that for something to be constructive it had to fit your own personal agenda.

I agree completely with the OP. I do dungeons for grouping content. I quest when I want to take my time and get involved in a story or I am otherwise occupied with things going on in the real world (have to check on dinner or eat dinner or look up what to make for dinner or daydream about dinner).

I have about 7 or so lower crag quests going right now that I've completed solo up until a point where I need 2-3 other people to activate the next sequence. I understand a zone with a difficulty that is tuned for groups but making it so the build min/maxing soloist can't proceed even though his character is powerful enough to do so is pretty ridiculous.

Its not my personal agenda, its the core feature of the area. Sorry to break up the bandwagon here, but asking for a complete change in core mechanics is not constructive.

I understand the implimentation leads to serious problems in CL. Grouping is a serious pain because of individual phases etc. Addressing these issues is constructive. Just asking to scrap it and allow it to be soloable is not.

Nazon_Katts

I'd loved for the quests being solo, but just because I can't find a group for questing in the first place. Seems no one does them anymore. I could solo a couple of steps, but there's the know brick walls, the overall cost (repair/pots) and time wasted (priceless when you cleared the group, got the boss down to 5% and the frakking mobs respawn), that just don't make that feasible.

Maybe let's meet in the middle and make all of that duo content? Or repeatable? I really don't see myself even starting with the quests if not something is fundamentally changed how they're played.

spoqster

Akula wrote: »

Its not my personal agenda, its the core feature of the area. Sorry to break up the bandwagon here, but asking for a complete change in core mechanics is not constructive.

With the Champion System they will be changing the core mechanics to improve usability of the product.

ZOS shows that they are willing to tackle important issues.

To me, solo vs. group content and difficulty levels are some of the most important issues to be dealt with. And frankly I think some of their decisions should be discussed.

spoqster

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

I'd loved for the quests being solo, but just because I can't find a group for questing in the first place. Seems no one does them anymore. I could solo a couple of steps, but there's the know brick walls, the overall cost (repair/pots) and time wasted (priceless when you cleared the group, got the boss down to 5% and the frakking mobs respawn), that just don't make that feasible.

Maybe let's meet in the middle and make all of that duo content? Or repeatable? I really don't see myself even starting with the quests if not something is fundamentally changed how they're played.

I am not a big fan of repeatable quests personally (at least not the way they did it in Cyrodiil - Daily dungeons are fine) but the focus on two players - duo content - is a fantastic thought.

It is so much easier to find a single good gaming partner than to find 3.

MasterSpatula

Whatever else I may disagree with on the OP, I have to say that this point is completely accurate:

spoqster wrote: »

Questing is an immersion thing. You read, you feel, you let yourself go into the story. This is only possible alone, or with really, really good friends that have the same speed as you. Questing is not fun if you feel like someone is waiting for you to finish reading.

The truth is, the best part of ESO is the story, and it's much harder to give the story its full appreciation when your group just wants to move on to the next fight.

This is actually something SWTOR does better than ESO, by not progressing dialogue (and thus, the quest) until everyone is caught up.

tordr86b16_ESO

Basically, you have a "leveling" zone that is group exclusive and the most efficient way to reach max veteran rank is by grinding hircine's haunt, which in turn, makes pugging quests and delves impossible because no one wants to do them or because they can't due to said reasons.

skeletorz_ESO

Akula wrote: »

You mean you are disappointed you cannot solo an area designed for groups? Mindboggling.

You didn't even read the OP. GTHO of this thread, right now.

On topic: I agree. The veterans zones were also a lot more fun back when they were challenging. But ZoS caved to all the stupid people and made it easy and boring like the 1-50.

Lord_Hev

Scaling... so simple to implement.


Forced grouping happens in private instances. All ZOS has to do is detect upon entry - the amount of players in the instance. So if you go solo, or with a single friend, the enemy and boss HP and DPS statistics get toned down. Then scale up the difficulty when there are a total of 3-4 players grouped and in the instance.


Requires like, zero additional processing power. I mean, they are already moving in this direction by scaling all instances to group leader's lvl. All they need to do now is then add a simple script that adjusts boss statistics depending on #players in the instance.



Scaling allows both parties to be happy. Solo players can solo and experience the story... and groups can work together, and experience the same story. OPTIONS. ZOS is moving in the right direction with dungeon lvling... they now just need to take one additional step and add actual scaling. Why force(solo only/group only), when you can just adapt?(scaling)


Craglorn Overworld is fine. Just the story and delves need to be scaled based on amount of players in a given instance.



Why is it that all the group die-hards think in such Black and White terms?

spoqster

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Scaling... so simple to implement.


Forced grouping happens in private instances. All ZOS has to do is detect upon entry - the amount of players in the instance. So if you go solo, or with a single friend, the enemy and boss HP and DPS statistics get toned down. Then scale up the difficulty when there are a total of 3-4 players grouped and in the instance.


Requires like, zero additional processing power. I mean, they are already moving in this direction by scaling all instances to group leader's lvl. All they need to do now is then add a simple script that adjusts boss statistics depending on #players in the instance.



Scaling allows both parties to be happy. Solo players can solo and experience the story... and groups can work together, and experience the same story. OPTIONS. ZOS is moving in the right direction with dungeon lvling... they now just need to take one additional step and add actual scaling. Why force(solo only/group only), when you can just adapt?(scaling)


Craglorn Overworld is fine. Just the story and delves need to be scaled based on amount of players in a given instance.

Why is it that all the group die-hards think in such Black and White terms?

What about the Overworld quest parts? Most of the content in ESO is not instanced. How would you approach that in terms of scaling?

Nazon_Katts

At least overland content is accessible by all players, wether anyone got a referring quest or not. Now, if you just made delves/instances public and don't gate them by quests, add incentives to tackle inside content multiple times (xp, gold, item drops) - like the MMOs of old pretty much all did - you could always find people to help you quest.

Gating, phasing, no incentives and overly efficient grinding kills most of that content and I haven't seen much from Devs addressing those issues. Just a couple of band aid solutions that won't do that much.

Merlin13KAGL

spoqster wrote: »

RSram wrote: »

I have over 1000 hours playing solo between 5 characters, but you can't beat the fun and teamwork that is required to make through the group dungeons; especially the first run when you don't know what to expect. I suggest all the group content haters join a guild and try group content, its fun.

You also contradict yourself in your OP. You state that you didn't want any help to fight a battle, because having another player would make it too easy, but then you go on and comment that you can't finish the Craglorn dungeons because they are too hard for solo?

Group content is loads of fun! I love it! I love the Veteran Dungeons, they are fantastic! I just think questing is about immersion and thus a solo thing.

I don't contradict myself. I could do most world stuff in Craglorn solo. Here I was referring to the traditional Veteran Dungeons. Try doing Darkshade Caverns by yourself. I can't imagine a build that can handle it.

@spoqster , this will cease completely after 1.5 implements Group Dungeon Scaling. You won't even walk into 'Normal' Spindleclutch as a VR14 and solo it, let along Vet Darkshade. (There is one guy that has a video doing just that, but it takes a dear year.)

Rune_Relic wrote: »

Surely there's a spell that lets me be in four places at once

Nope...but a piece of gear can:

Rajhin's Mantle

spoqster

Update: I started this poll to see how the community feels about group questing. Looks like I am not alone.

Fi'yra

Honestly, I agree with the OP.
Although, my opinions are different.
I enjoy doing Craglorn (I'm still half way through it), but the thing is, I was never much of a PvE player, I always preferred PvP over it, until I finally hit a higher level on my DK, and decided I would try a Craglorn delve with some strangers.

I enjoyed it a lot, but the only thing that disappoints me are the quests.
- Being in a group really puts you behind on things, and most of the time you're getting rushed by your group, because they're only there for the achievement, or the XP.

But either way, you hardly get the time to actually experience Craglorn and the stories behind it.

Personally, because of the way Craglorn is, I'd say I enjoy it a lot, but of course, it has it's flaws, but what doesn't?
I think it's cool that ZoS implemented a group based area for players to join up and fight together, rather than the boring solo-quest line, which had really bad story line (imo)

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

You want to know what's challenging??

You and one other person trying to gather Skyshards from Craglorn Dungeons, you are a Nightblade, your friend is a Templar, I had to break out the Vanish potions for him. I would get the Skyshard first and then he would go for it while I became visible and dragged the enemy group (its called distraction) and remain alive longer than 3 sec's while getting my furry tail handed to me so he could attain the Skyshard. Fun stuff. Yes....Craglorn is for Groups.

Rune_Relic

I was proud of myself soloing village of the dead on cold harbour and fungal grotto. This sounds like a whole new level of pain.

spoqster

Rune_Relic wrote: »

I was proud of myself soloing village of the dead on cold harbour and fungal grotto. This sounds like a whole new level of pain.

Village of the dead was a lot of fun soloing. I remember that. Haven't done Fungal yet.