New VR Attribute Point Concerns (Warning: Contains Math)
Dagoth_Rac
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Patch notes state, “Reduced the amount of Health, Magicka, and Stamina rewarded on a Veteran Rank gain by 35% to compensate for the new Attribute Points rewarded.” This means the normal 10/15/10 Magicka/Health/Stamina gain for a VR Rank will now be 6.5/9.75/6.5. Let’s see how that works out.
Note that you start at Level 1 so you never got an Attribute Point for that. And you jump directly from Level 49 to VR1, but it acts like a normal Level Up and gives an Attribute Point. So only VR2-VR14 did not give Attribute Points. Thus, current max Attribute Points are 49 and Update 5 max Attribute Points are 49 + 13 = 62.
Initial Conditions:
Magicka = 100
Health = 150
Stamina = 100
Current, Level 2-VR1:
Magicka = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 20 per Level + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Current, Level VR2-VR14:
Magicka = 10 per VR Rank
Health = 15 per VR Rank
Stamina = 10 per VR Rank
Update 5, Level 2-VR1:
Magicka = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 20 per Level + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Update 5, Level VR2-VR14:
Magicka = 6.5 per VR Rank + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 9.75 per VR Rank + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 6.5 per VR Rank + 10 per Attribute Point
Now, let’s compare a VR14 with Current versus Update 5, with the typical distribution of Magicka/Health/Stamina (i.e., 0/49/0 current, 0/62/0 in Update 5).
(Current Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Current Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (10 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1210 Base Magicka at VR14
Current Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (15 * 13) + (49 * 15) = 2060 Base Health at VR14
Current Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (10 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1210 Base Stamina at VR14
(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1165 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (62 * 15) = 2187 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1165 Base Stamina at VR14
So, my Health has gone up 127 points, about 6.2%. That is pretty good! But my Magicka and Stamina have each gone down 45 points, about 3.7% each. I did not expect this to nerf my Magicka and Stamina! Let me reallocate to get Magicka and Stamina back to where they were. I lost 45 in each, so 5 attribute points is the smallest amount needed in each to not end up below where I was with the current system. So now we have a 5/52/5 distribution:
(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (52 * 15) = 2037 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Stamina at VR14
Great. Now I have my Magicka and Stamina back where they were, plus a tiny bonus of about 0.4%. Let’s see what my Health has gone up to with the extra Attribute Points. Uh oh. Health has now gone down 23 points, or about 1.1%.
I guess I need to rethink this whole thing and go for a more balanced allocation. Maybe 15/32/15. Nope, that does not work either. No matter the combination or permutation, you always end slightly worse than a similar distribution in the current system. It is a minor difference. It is not game-breaking. An extra 5 resource here or a missing 23 health there is not the difference between facerolling and constant wipes.
But it still raises the question of what the point was? The formulas are now more complicated, the cost to respec attributes is now higher, but we are not gaining anything from it as best as I can tell. Why jump through all these hoops if we are just going to end up back where we started?
I will take the 13 free skill points, though! Wait. Do 3 Skyshards still give you a skill point? Or does it now take like 3.3 Skyshards to compensate for the 13 new Skill Points we are getting? ;-)
Note that you start at Level 1 so you never got an Attribute Point for that. And you jump directly from Level 49 to VR1, but it acts like a normal Level Up and gives an Attribute Point. So only VR2-VR14 did not give Attribute Points. Thus, current max Attribute Points are 49 and Update 5 max Attribute Points are 49 + 13 = 62.
Initial Conditions:
Magicka = 100
Health = 150
Stamina = 100
Current, Level 2-VR1:
Magicka = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 20 per Level + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Current, Level VR2-VR14:
Magicka = 10 per VR Rank
Health = 15 per VR Rank
Stamina = 10 per VR Rank
Update 5, Level 2-VR1:
Magicka = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 20 per Level + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 20 per Level + 10 per Attribute Point
Update 5, Level VR2-VR14:
Magicka = 6.5 per VR Rank + 10 per Attribute Point
Health = 9.75 per VR Rank + 15 per Attribute Point
Stamina = 6.5 per VR Rank + 10 per Attribute Point
Now, let’s compare a VR14 with Current versus Update 5, with the typical distribution of Magicka/Health/Stamina (i.e., 0/49/0 current, 0/62/0 in Update 5).
(Current Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Current Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (10 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1210 Base Magicka at VR14
Current Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (15 * 13) + (49 * 15) = 2060 Base Health at VR14
Current Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (10 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1210 Base Stamina at VR14
(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1165 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (62 * 15) = 2187 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (0 * 10) = 1165 Base Stamina at VR14
So, my Health has gone up 127 points, about 6.2%. That is pretty good! But my Magicka and Stamina have each gone down 45 points, about 3.7% each. I did not expect this to nerf my Magicka and Stamina! Let me reallocate to get Magicka and Stamina back to where they were. I lost 45 in each, so 5 attribute points is the smallest amount needed in each to not end up below where I was with the current system. So now we have a 5/52/5 distribution:
(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (52 * 15) = 2037 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Stamina at VR14
Great. Now I have my Magicka and Stamina back where they were, plus a tiny bonus of about 0.4%. Let’s see what my Health has gone up to with the extra Attribute Points. Uh oh. Health has now gone down 23 points, or about 1.1%.
I guess I need to rethink this whole thing and go for a more balanced allocation. Maybe 15/32/15. Nope, that does not work either. No matter the combination or permutation, you always end slightly worse than a similar distribution in the current system. It is a minor difference. It is not game-breaking. An extra 5 resource here or a missing 23 health there is not the difference between facerolling and constant wipes.
But it still raises the question of what the point was? The formulas are now more complicated, the cost to respec attributes is now higher, but we are not gaining anything from it as best as I can tell. Why jump through all these hoops if we are just going to end up back where we started?
I will take the 13 free skill points, though! Wait. Do 3 Skyshards still give you a skill point? Or does it now take like 3.3 Skyshards to compensate for the 13 new Skill Points we are getting? ;-)
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ExiledKhallisi✭✭✭✭✭It seems ZOS idea of buffs is similar to the the slight difference in professional swimming between a man who shaves his legs and arms and one who doesn't.>>>>>>>>(DC)Guild Master of Biestas 250+ Active Members<<<<<<<<||||||Vr14 Sorc: Darkened Soul vr14 Templar: Tiffaney||||||“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War4 -
AshySamurai✭✭✭✭✭
✭You also get +% from Undaunted passives. You can +6%. I think this is more than compensates all nerfs. And don't forget about 14 additional attribute points.Edited by AshySamurai on October 15, 2014 3:32AMMake sweetrolls, not nerfs!2 -
driosketch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Looks like you could get two atribuutes, say magic and health, both slightly higher while neglecting the third though. Any idea if certain racial bonuses would be helped from a bigger potential pool?
Bigger concern, what happens to the skill points when the champion system takes over. Is any character you didn't get to VR14 going to be out of luck?Main: Drio Azul ~ DC, Redguard, Healer/Magicka Templar ~ NA-PC
●The Psijic Order●The Sidekick Order●Great House Hlaalu●Bal-Busters●1 -
Nihil✭✭✭When I did lvl up a veteran rank and compared the increase in stats (didn't check till like vr 12), it was not the typical 10/15/10. I think it was closer to 5 (well I got 6 due to my dunmer passive)/7ish/5. Keep in mind that if you were already over soft cap in a stat that it will look like you get more due to the increase in soft cap as well.
Did you compare on live server when you lvled up to see if the VR ranks gave the same attribute increase?
Also my base health is 2041, and not 2060, so it isn't quite how your formula works out.
And my stamina / magicka after factoring out my dunmer passives are 1196 each... so this is a loss of 19 health, and 14 magicka / stamina in comparison to your formula.Edited by Nihil on October 15, 2014 4:49AM0 -
Unknown_poster✭✭✭Really gonna blow your mind when the champion system is enacted and your heath goes from 2800 to 28000. 10x change to show the impact of minor percentage changes to your character.0 -
bellanca6561n✭✭✭✭✭
✭AshySamurai wrote: »You also get +% from Undaunted passives. You can +6%. I think this is more than compensates all nerfs. And don't forget about 14 additional attribute points.
So, what your saying is it's like six of one, half dozen of the other?
Old Saxon math.
Or is it the Lord gave, the Lord hath taken away?
Old time religion....Job actually...1 -
xaraan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I didn't think it was about a buff, but about letting players spend the increase how they want to. When they said they were lowering the auto-increase to compensate for the new points, that is how I took it anyway.-- @xaraan --
nightblade: Xaraan • templar: Xaraan-dar • dragon-knight: Xaraanosaurus • necromancer: Xaraan-qa • warden: Xaraanodon • sorcerer: Xaraan-ra
AD • NA • PC0 -
pppontus✭✭✭✭✭
✭I didn't think it was about a buff, but about letting players spend the increase how they want to. When they said they were lowering the auto-increase to compensate for the new points, that is how I took it anyway.
Yes, I still like the change as it allows even further customization and build variation. You can now sacrifice more hp/mag/stam to go further into another which is a very good thing.0 -
ozmorgudduth✭✭✭They are making sure that imperial's health will not go through the roof without nerfing imperial class when champion system kicks in?1 -
Merlin13KAGL✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AshySamurai wrote: »You also get +% from Undaunted passives. You can +6%. I think this is more than compensates all nerfs. And don't forget about 14 additional attribute points.
You're looking at 180 points per attribute if you're wearing all three types of armor at once? Is that worth two skillpoints, honestly? (Plus the loss of the passives from the armor class you normally use?)Just because you don't like the way something is doesn't necessarily make it wrong...
Earn it.
IRL'ing for a while for assorted reasons, in forum, and in game.I am neither warm, nor fuzzy...
Probably has checkbox on Customer Service profile that say High Aggro, 99% immunity to BS0 -
guybrushtb16_ESO✭✭✭✭driosketch wrote: »Looks like you could get two atribuutes, say magic and health, both slightly higher while neglecting the third though. Any idea if certain racial bonuses would be helped from a bigger potential pool?
This is the big thing here. Nobody spends points equally in all 3 attributes anyway, so it's a clear buff in the end.Merlin13KAGL wrote: »You're looking at 180 points per attribute if you're wearing all three types of armor at once? Is that worth two skillpoints, honestly? (Plus the loss of the passives from the armor class you normally use?)
Similarly, wearing mixed armor is now better, but probably still not worth it. Remember that you get 2% for one type anyway, so switching 2 pieces gains you 4% for all pools, but it comes at a 4% cost reduction price which is far more valuable generally.0 -
spoqster✭✭✭✭✭I think they should take completely out the Magicka/Health/Stamina increase for Veteran ranks.- We have plenty of attribute points already, so there is no detrimental effect to balancing.
- This brings the Veteran ranks closer together, so that it is easier for us to play with/against our mates.
- The increases in attributes on the gear is plenty to differentiate a VR14 from a VR1.
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driosketch wrote: »Looks like you could get two atribuutes, say magic and health, both slightly higher while neglecting the third though. Any idea if certain racial bonuses would be helped from a bigger potential pool?
Bigger concern, what happens to the skill points when the champion system takes over. Is any character you didn't get to VR14 going to be out of luck?
to take your
Formula and update it for this(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (52 * 15) = 2037 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (5 * 10) = 1215 Base Stamina at VR14
(Update 5 Attribute = Starting value + Normal Level-Up + VR Level-Up + Attribute Points)
Update 5 Magicka = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13)= 1165 Base Magicka at VR14
Update 5 Health = 150 + (49 * 20) + (9.75 * 13) + (55 * 15) = 2083 Base Health at VR14
Update 5 Stamina = 100 + (49 * 20) + (6.5 * 13) + (7 * 10) = 1235 Base Stamina at VR14
Looks to me like an overall buff for my build that uses two abilities that don't scale with magicka at all as my only magicka dumps (focused attacks and mark target).
Of course this directly hits Magicka builds (thanks to a mix of overcharge caps and the fact that light and heavy attacks scale with stamina)
But like you said, an extra 23 health and 25 stamina aren't going to make or break my build :P.0 -
They never claimed its a buff. They are making changes preping for a full system change for how veteran content and leveling works. Those are neglable losses and we are all in the same boat. Seems fine to me. Are you saying you want the changes specifically built around a min max build instead of preparation for the champion system? What's your point?1
