Two-Handed Weapon Changes, 1.5 - Good? Bad? Ugly?

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

Davadin wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Well, the uppercut 2% is taking into account the 10% damage you'll be getting for preceding said uppercut with a heavy attack. Along with the cast time being reduced to the same as Ambush, the changes were pretty good actually.

My biggest concern is that I use uppercut (Wrecking Blow) to (almost) one-shot a guy from stealth from behind. Can't start with a heavy since that'll break my stealth.

Imagine, with stealth, i hit around 2k. without it, i hit around 450. you're saying, if i start with heavy, now i got 500? Whoopie!


First, they only increase 2%, then they're nerfing stealth dmg bonus.

Yeah..... not good.

^^^^^^

Thejollygreenone

Davadin wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Well, the uppercut 2% is taking into account the 10% damage you'll be getting for preceding said uppercut with a heavy attack. Along with the cast time being reduced to the same as Ambush, the changes were pretty good actually.

My biggest concern is that I use uppercut (Wrecking Blow) to (almost) one-shot a guy from stealth from behind. Can't start with a heavy since that'll break my stealth.

Imagine, with stealth, i hit around 2k. without it, i hit around 450. you're saying, if i start with heavy, now i got 500? Whoopie!


First, they only increase 2%, then they're nerfing stealth dmg bonus.

Yeah..... not good.

It's odd most people don't seem to notice that the passive is mainly geared towards pve (i.e. single target against trial bosses) where the effect fits perfectly with 2h's ideal sustained rotation:
Wrecking Blow-Heavy Attack-rinse repeat (until low enough for efficient executing) (My Wrecking Blows regularly crit for 1k-1.2k in my regular buffs, a bit more of a bonus than from 450-500)

While the change doesn't put it in line with bows new pve dps, I feel it will still behind dual wields pve dps as well but don't have the numbers to compare to. So some tweaking may still be in order.

The point is, heavy attacks aren't implied in pvp like they are in pve. Similar to the DW ideal rotation which rotates flurry with heavy attacks, but you wont see anyone doing this in pvp.

Although since Arcane Fighter generally was a pvp oriented passive, being changed for a pve oriented passive is a bit off, so there is a point to be made there.

EDIT: Went into the pts just to see what the actual crit numbers on Wrecking Blow I would get when set up properly, 1400s are popping up pretty regularly. That's one damn strong .8 second cast time ability.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Davadin wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Well, the uppercut 2% is taking into account the 10% damage you'll be getting for preceding said uppercut with a heavy attack. Along with the cast time being reduced to the same as Ambush, the changes were pretty good actually.

My biggest concern is that I use uppercut (Wrecking Blow) to (almost) one-shot a guy from stealth from behind. Can't start with a heavy since that'll break my stealth.

Imagine, with stealth, i hit around 2k. without it, i hit around 450. you're saying, if i start with heavy, now i got 500? Whoopie!


First, they only increase 2%, then they're nerfing stealth dmg bonus.

Yeah..... not good.

It's odd most people don't seem to notice the the passive is mainly geared towards pve (i.e. single target against trial bosses) where the effect fits perfectly with 2h's ideal sustained rotation:
Wrecking Blow-Heavy Attack-rinse repeat (until low enough for efficient executing) (My Wrecking Blows regularly crit for 1k-1.2k in my regular buffs, a bit more of a bonus than from 450-500)

While the change doesn't put it in line with bows new pve dps, and I feel it will still behind dual wields pve dps as well but don't have the numbers to compare to.

The point is, heavy attacks aren't implied in pvp like they are in pve. Similar to the DW ideal rotation which rotates flurry with heavy attacks, but you wont see anyone doing this in pvp.

Although since Arcane Fighter generally was a pvp oriented passive, being changed for a pve oriented passive is a bit off, so there is a point to be made there.

Armitas

I can do a bit over 600 a pop with impulse (optimal circumstances) and I can do around 260 using a master sword and carve. Carve doesn't need a nerf it needs a huge buff.

Get rid of the bleed. Putting a bleed on a spamable aoe makes no sense. You are spamming it for ultimate and AOE damage so what the heck is the point of a 10 second bleed?

Drop the pointless bleed and give it upfront damage.

Thejollygreenone

Armitas wrote: »

I can do a bit over 600 a pop with impulse (optimal circumstances) and I can do around 260 using a master sword and carve. Carve doesn't need a nerf it needs a huge buff.

Get rid of the bleed. Putting a bleed on a spamable aoe makes no sense. You are spamming it for ultimate and AOE damage so what the heck is the point of a 10 second bleed?

Drop the pointless bleed and give it upfront damage.

Saying Cleave is supposed to be a spammable AoE is debatable. As of now (1.5), Reverse Slice might better fit that role, while peppering in Carve every 10 seconds.

The ult gen on Carve fits with the bleed because DoTs allow for amazing ult gen when they crit, so it sort of fits with a benefit the ability is supposed to present. Not so that you can spam the hell out of it and get crazy ult gen, that's probably a reason why they nerfed it from 3 to 2 per hit.

Likewise I feel Brawler fits with it being a 10 second DoT as well, as when you hit 6 people with it the bubble is pretty damn strong, and paired with other bubbles and defensive mechanics should be able to last you between 5-10 seconds.

I doubt the morph was meant to be spammed over and over, as refreshing a strong damage shield over and over is a lot of the times pointless, but the times it wouldn't be pointless it would just be too strong to spam it if used with bubblestacking to possibly be intended.

The way they set the ability and the morphs up, and this recent change to Reverse Slice and Carve's ult gen, I personally see Cleave more as an AoE DoT than as a spammable. Though that doesn't mean I think it's an effective AoE DoT, I would say they should go one way or another with it.

Just wanted to bring up that what you say isn't necessarily how everyone else feels.

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

I do like how he called his weapon a master sword though lol

Davadin

Good (You like it)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I do like how he called his weapon a master sword though lol

I'm guessing he's ESL and he meant to say B*st*rd Sword (2H)?

Dunno.

Master's cool with me too.


On topic, I think brawler's bubble kinda suck. It's an AoE skill so you're most likely up against multiples if you're using it. The bubble just isn't viable enough compared to building ultimates, which, at 2 instead of 3 per hit, is still a lot when you're up against a group.

And yes, it's spammable. But the DoT is... well... doesn't hurt anyone.

I'm planning to go back to Carve after 1.5 and alternate it with Heavy Attacks for 10% extra. That'll rack things up fast.

Armitas

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

I can do a bit over 600 a pop with impulse (optimal circumstances) and I can do around 260 using a master sword and carve. Carve doesn't need a nerf it needs a huge buff.

Get rid of the bleed. Putting a bleed on a spamable aoe makes no sense. You are spamming it for ultimate and AOE damage so what the heck is the point of a 10 second bleed?

Drop the pointless bleed and give it upfront damage.

Saying Cleave is supposed to be a spammable AoE is debatable. As of now (1.5), Reverse Slice might better fit that role, while peppering in Carve every 10 seconds.

The ult gen on Carve fits with the bleed because DoTs allow for amazing ult gen when they crit, so it sort of fits with a benefit the ability is supposed to present. Not so that you can spam the hell out of it and get crazy ult gen, that's probably a reason why they nerfed it from 3 to 2 per hit.

Likewise I feel Brawler fits with it being a 10 second DoT as well, as when you hit 6 people with it the bubble is pretty damn strong, and paired with other bubbles and defensive mechanics should be able to last you between 5-10 seconds.

I doubt the morph was meant to be spammed over and over, as refreshing a strong damage shield over and over is a lot of the times pointless, but the times it wouldn't be pointless it would just be too strong to spam it if used with bubblestacking to possibly be intended.

The way they set the ability and the morphs up, and this recent change to Reverse Slice and Carve's ult gen, I personally see Cleave more as an AoE DoT than as a spammable. Though that doesn't mean I think it's an effective AoE DoT, I would say they should go one way or another with it.

Just wanted to bring up that what you say isn't necessarily how everyone else feels.

Yeah you're right. I'm still thinking 1.4.

Brasseurfb16_ESO

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

The ult gen on Carve fits with the bleed because DoTs allow for amazing ult gen when they crit, so it sort of fits with a benefit the ability is supposed to present. Not so that you can spam the hell out of it and get crazy ult gen, that's probably a reason why they nerfed it from 3 to 2 per hit.

Haven't been on PTS, but I'm pretty sure Carve DoT doesn't crit on Live.

Thejollygreenone

Brasseurfb16_ESO wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

The ult gen on Carve fits with the bleed because DoTs allow for amazing ult gen when they crit, so it sort of fits with a benefit the ability is supposed to present. Not so that you can spam the hell out of it and get crazy ult gen, that's probably a reason why they nerfed it from 3 to 2 per hit.

Haven't been on PTS, but I'm pretty sure Carve DoT doesn't crit on Live.

Yeah I did know this, I suppose I was giving my argument based off of the ideals

While Carve/Cleave still won't be the effective DoT based AoE I feel it was intended to be come 1.5 mainly due to ZoS not acknowledging this issue yet, I don't think it changes the intended purpose of the ability. I have bug reported it btw.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

I just spent a couple nights with Brawler (Carve morph) in PvP. I've never hard it (max on Cleave but im not here to test ultimates).

1. the DoT is negligible. Very much so.
2. the bubble thing is small, but somewhat better than nothing. last night i was out of pots and relied 100% only on Green Dragon and THAT bubble (intentionally take off the flying stone debris skill thing), and it felt pretty good. Combining with other bubble skills would be nice.
3. Most importantly: this thing is spammable. Yes, there's a cost to it, but the animation cancel... its own thing. I can nearly spam this skill as fast as I can tap my mouse button....

Davadin

Good (You like it)

NOTE:

Wish list:
1. 2H heavy strike should break through blocks.
2. Stamina return should be double, or at least 1.5x more than Magicka returns.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

Also,
Cleave gets a 10% buff, but Reverse Strike got 100% increase on the AoE and hit up to 6 targets...

I wonder which 1 would pick for AoE.... hmmmm.........

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

I already changed to Reverse Slice. Simply put it's better than executioner anyway because once a boss is within execute range I don't spam anything else but Reverse Slash.

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

Also to add to the wishlist, 2H Weapons need higher damage. While Dual Wielding, my two blue swords have higher weapon damage on my character sheet than my Purple 2H. Heavy attacks do as much damage while also swinging faster, and Flurry deals a great deal more damage than Uppercut based on the fact that

1) It has more hits that do higher overall damage.

2) And each hit has a chance to crit on it's own.

It's discouraging as all hell truth be told when DW has a better chance to deal better DPS with a simple glance on paper, but I'm told 2H parses higher since Uppercut has a shorter cast time, so who knows, may not even matter because I still love rocking my giant spiked log.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

I already changed to Reverse Slice. Simply put it's better than executioner anyway because once a boss is within execute range I don't spam anything else but Reverse Slash.

i started with reverse slash as i level up, but tried n stuck with executioner. to be honest, you are completely correct, and i'll switch back again in v1.5.

but the question is, is it still better than Cleave? Which still produce DoT, and AFAIK, not limited to 6 target... and also adds ultimate or give u some shield bubble?

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

Also to add to the wishlist, 2H Weapons need higher damage. While Dual Wielding, my two blue swords have higher weapon damage on my character sheet than my Purple 2H. Heavy attacks do as much damage while also swinging faster, and Flurry deals a great deal more damage than Uppercut based on the fact that

1) It has more hits that do higher overall damage.

2) And each hit has a chance to crit on it's own.

It's discouraging as all hell truth be told when DW has a better chance to deal better DPS with a simple glance on paper, but I'm told 2H parses higher since Uppercut has a shorter cast time, so who knows, may not even matter because I still love rocking my giant spiked log.

damn right. and uppercut cast time is shorter but it damages only at the end.... so if the enemy moves out of the way DURING, it doesn't register. But Flurry, you get the hits instantly. The sooner they move, the lass damage you get, but still, you'll get SOME in most likely.

2H is sad, but v1.5 seems to be promising. On paper, it's still teh sux, but i have hope. Besides, I'm just biased playing a Nord with a huge *** sword on his back...

ArcVelarian

Bad (You hate it)

Not sorry to say it, whoever is in charge of weapon skill lines is an idiot. 2h needs a massive overall damage buff and cost reduction for its abilities, not this garbage.

Cody

Good (You like it)

ArcVelarian wrote: »

Not sorry to say it, whoever is in charge of weapon skill lines is an idiot. 2h needs a massive overall damage buff and cost reduction for its abilities, not this garbage.

it needs to do twice the damage of regular weapons.

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

That seems extreme, that would actually put it a wee bit too overpoweringly high imho. 25% seems like a good increase at max.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That seems extreme, that would actually put it a wee bit too overpoweringly high imho. 25% seems like a good increase at max.

compared to Dual Wield or Destro? You kidding?

No, 25% won't be enough.

25% on top of the proposed v1.5 changes, however.... would fit the bill.

Soris

Good (You like it)

"While 2H Mace equipped, ignore %50 of target's block."

I'd very like to see this on patch notes!

Thejollygreenone

faernaa wrote: »

"While 2H Mace equipped, ignore %50 of target's block."

I'd very like to see this on patch notes!

I'd like to just see that as a passive for all 2h's ^.^ The value given is probably a bit extreme, but if the value were tweaked and tested, I'd really love a function like this in the game.

I feel it would be too strong to give to any one of the three weapon types though, people who wear a 2h would only use mace in pvp.

Soris

Good (You like it)

But it's a MACE! A giant 2 meter long hammer to smash all the skulls around, like Ajax in Troy movie

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

Davadin wrote: »

Khivas_Carrick wrote: »

That seems extreme, that would actually put it a wee bit too overpoweringly high imho. 25% seems like a good increase at max.

compared to Dual Wield or Destro? You kidding?

No, 25% won't be enough.

25% on top of the proposed v1.5 changes, however.... would fit the bill.

Actually yes, it would be too much. Destro Staff is mighty mostly due to Impulse and Light Armor traits. Nerf those and it's fine, and Dual Wielding isn't that far ahead of 2H, if it's really that far at all. Nonetheless, 2H at best is only a little bit behind in terms of single target DPS on bosses, and 50% increase to weapon damage would be nuts. In PvP you'd be able to use light attacks alone to kill people off with relative ease, let alone a heavy or Uppercut from Stealth, even with the 1.5 nerfs to stealth damage.

Just for a slight visual, my current Maul hits for 166 at VR14 with Epic quality. 50% of that is 83, making for a 249 Damage weapon. Without going further, that's obviously too damn strong since with 166 weapon damage and the buffs I have to my weapon damage through enchants, my light attacks deal 250-300 non crit to vr12+ mobs, heavies hitting for 600 normal and 900 crit. 25% of 166 is 41.5, rounded down for sake of not being OP makes the weapon 207. To me that still seems too high, but it's more feasible and realistic to ask for than 249, and while I do agree that a 2H (which is slower swinging and a single weapon) should have much higher damage than a single sword and bigger burst than dual wielding, I do not think it should completely dwarf it.

If anything, a 15% increase would probably be our best bet.

Soris

Good (You like it)

2h line is good enough imo. Skills are already hitting high enough to smash every face. Even my light attacks hits 250 and heavy attacks 500 (+-) to players in light armor, with capped stamina and weapon damage. Only the cleave and its morphs need some damage increase for a decent AoE like impulse. And also Heavy Weapons passive should scale better.
Plus, something like ignore block feature (%25-50 whatever fits) would be nice as I said above. Because block and spam playstyle completely negates the power of 2h. But if they just fix that issue, it might be no problem at all.

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

2H imho are still too far behind other stamina weapons, but then again my definition of too far is only a little, since I believe in equality for all.

Father

I'm not sure if the 2 handed maul bonus (20% armor penetration) , would be viable, as the armor reduction is bugged and gives unpredictable values.

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

I actually did not know that.

Davadin

Good (You like it)

i retract what i said. I'm vr6 and I'm using both 2h weapon buff and the DK buff+fire, putting weapon damage at 216 (+2% increase per second until 20 sec) and i changed executioner into the other morph and stampede into critical charge... And use strictly 2h skills in cyro....

And I'm blowing people off left and right lol

Khivas_Carrick

Ugly (You Love/Hate it but have THIS to say about it)

Davadin wrote: »

i retract what i said. I'm vr6 and I'm using both 2h weapon buff and the DK buff+fire, putting weapon damage at 216 (+2% increase per second until 20 sec) and i changed executioner into the other morph and stampede into critical charge... And use strictly 2h skills in cyro....

And I'm blowing people off left and right lol

Well you're a DK, of course you're blowing people off =P Also may want to rethink that sentence lmao