Classes...What are they for really?

Mricci1988

Good evening all,

This is NOT a flame...this is not a rage-thread NOR is it a "Class xyz is unbalanced"

This is more of a discussion to ask what a class really is the base of.

I find that Yes - despite armor passives which will eventually change - you really CAN play how you want to play (and please do not *** about trials and DPS threshholds as not EVERYONE is an endgame champion nor will be)

Dragonknight:
From my understanding Dragonknight are really either 1 of 2 (or in some cases both) a heavy melee DPS or a Tank...(Yes they can heal and yes they can be fire mages) but most I see play melee DPS or Tank...is this really what they do?
How are they are a melee DPS? How are they a tank compared to Templar NB or Sorc?

Templar:
From my understanding they mostly are based (endgame pve) as healers...some of the best levelers minds you solo. DPS right now I found my Templar was lacking a lot but can heal very reliably or act as a major tank in pvp...What really is a Templar meant to be? (2H Paladin DPS? S&B Tank? Resto Healer? Not sure)...

Nightblde:
From my 30 levels of experience NB's are very diverse which I like...Solid melee DPS...Blood mage type of class....healer or a small tank...How are they compared as a Melee DPS to Dragonknight or as a blood mage compared to a sorc mage?

Sorcerer:
Melee DPS? or a spell slinger? Not sure....from what I have seen they offer a great base class to buff wep damage with surge but then offer awesome spell slinging with destro staff! What is the base of a Sorc? How are they melee compared to a NB...or as a Fire Mage DK?


I would love your input everyone to compare the four BASES of the class calling out the core strengths and weaknesses of each.

I have never played a DK endgame trial nor a Sorc endgame PvP for example...Templar and NB so far I have more exp with - so as someone without experience I would like to use this post as a way of discovering more about other classes I have not played.

Please keep flames away - this is just for normal discussions.

Btw - Zenimax - this game is really good compared to GW2 or FF:ARR and better then WoW imo. Keep up the solid work!

Varicite

The way I see it is like this:

Templar = divine / light effects
Nightblade = shadow / blood effects
Sorcerer = lightning / summon effects
Dragonknight = fire effects

There are a few nuances of course, the "flavor" that each class can do that others can't, but that's pretty much the gist of it.

Every class can heal, tank, or dps, so that's not really a great way of trying to categorize them, imo. It's really more about what style of magical effects you want to be sparkling around you while you play your role.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

having leveled a sorc and a NB and well under way with a DK, it kind of feels like the definition of classes would mean limitations. we can all do a bit of this and that in ESO. but some classes are better than others spell-wise. My DK is a dark elf and i have to say this class is what is usually called "easy mode", so much of it empowers flame, protection and regen, im seeing why they are such a pain in PvP. im currently using my DK as a "Fire Mage" less range than a sorc but the dmg... omg. but the fact you can steer a DK towards casting is a good thing.


sure i was learning the game with a sorc and could probably do a lot better now, but the NB? lots of work in a fight. im yet to take a temp past 20, but i get the feeling those may be easy easy mode and just as reliant on casting as a sorc.

but my opinion is, that any build that stems from weapon DMG did and still does suffer against casters. i have not tried, what would you call it?, a blood mage? type nightblade but something tells me it would be less effective. casters dont NEED stealth and stealth related buffs, but nightblades do.
then take a look at survivability...

- DKs a tank class that can regen and spells steer towards aoe and dmg mitigation. even repetitive reflection of spells , knockdowns and pushbacks.
though some defenses are stam based i havnt as yet had trouble keeping stam up.

- Temps are versatile direct healers, dmg mitigation?, cleansing. though i cant comment on much of a temps spells. but it does seem to have range and pushbacks.

- Sorc, high single and aoe dmg, evasive spell, wards, cleanse, stun, immobilize (not to mention 2 pets) spells also work well with casting weapons or stam weapons.

- nightblades do heavy single target dmg. some aoe. but all sustainability comes from attacks being siphon/bleed etc. as stated above i dont think a caster build could compare to the other classes so in my experience the class is heavily stam reliant (the only class that is so). evasion/dodge and a nightblade's method of survivability... run and hide aka cloak. which is still a bit twitchy. perhaps tweaking the spells of a nightblade might be better than trying to fix stam issues.
or heres an idea, a spell that switches stam and magika to be 1 universal resource for nigthblade spell AND weapon attacks. (just spitballin)

Mricci1988

These are some GREAT comments.

I tried leveling my DK a little (not high level only 13...so I am NOT calling myself an expert or leet - in fact I am a DK noob to remain humble).

I was rolling DW DK:
- Indig Wep's
- Fiery Breath for damage buff / AoE
- Searing Strike
- Flurry
- Cant remember last skill
- Take Flight Morph

I felt that I was really gimped...honestly I was dying so much..i would buff my weps...AoE Fiery and spam searing strike to get the damage dot going...and flurry spam...I couldn't kill things really fast enough.

I found that as a NB....I can really go toe to toe better in pve (But nothing compares to Templar Puncturing Sweep heal in Solo leveling....that was insane damage + heal easy mode)

Blood mage more about support DPS as a caster for trials.

I was thinking something like funnel health to help take pressure off healer followed up with single target damage to damage too....this way I add utility to a team rather then straight up DPS.

I like the idea of being a support + dps hybrid sometimes.

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO

nightblades drop in effectiveness when soloing at the higher vet levels. or at least they did in the past. or perhaps the other classes just have more options with groups of mobs being 5+ in craglorn. but its only been recently that i could aoe them down solo before dying. (always see a temp just jogging by killing everything effortlessly)

aaronlove83

The sigh of relief I just had was audible across nations.

Hi, I am a new player, still downloading the client, and before I even paid for my game I knew what I wanted to play. I saw the Wiki information on Templar and fell in LOVE! The class looks like it can easily be a Paladin ( I envision the Nordic "mace" which is apparently a HAMMER!? ) Heavy Armor, and Self Buffing/Healing and wading into battle with fervor!

OK Nerdgasm over... my point is that I am glad to hear that it is not gimped oin this regard. My question however is will I be pigeon-holed into healing at endgame or will tanking be a viable option?

Nestor

Mricci1988 wrote: »

These are some GREAT comments.

I tried leveling my DK a little (not high level only 13...so I am NOT calling myself an expert or leet - in fact I am a DK noob to remain humble).

I was rolling DW DK:
- Indig Wep's
- Fiery Breath for damage buff / AoE
- Searing Strike
- Flurry
- Cant remember last skill
- Take Flight Morph

I felt that I was really gimped...honestly I was dying so much..i would buff my weps...AoE Fiery and spam searing strike to get the damage dot going...and flurry spam..

Interesting as my DK was the easiest to level and take on over leveled mobs. I would do a different rotation and did not use three of those skills. PM me and we can discuss this as it's off topic for this thread.

lordspyder

aaronlove83 wrote: »

The sigh of relief I just had was audible across nations.

Hi, I am a new player, still downloading the client, and before I even paid for my game I knew what I wanted to play. I saw the Wiki information on Templar and fell in LOVE! The class looks like it can easily be a Paladin ( I envision the Nordic "mace" which is apparently a HAMMER!? ) Heavy Armor, and Self Buffing/Healing and wading into battle with fervor!

OK Nerdgasm over... my point is that I am glad to hear that it is not gimped oin this regard. My question however is will I be pigeon-holed into healing at endgame or will tanking be a viable option?

ANY class can tank if you spec it right, I am currently playing a sorcerer tank, and it is fun as hell.

Darkonflare15

I am playing as a two handed med armor night blade and I love my setup. I play as a Berserker/Reaper like character. Night Blades have a lot different buffs to attacks that depend on situation.

I love marking my target with Reapers mark and then run into a group of enemies than use Power Drain to gain a lot of attack power and when I kill the enemy that was marked I get health back and a boost in spell and weapon power. Plus I love leeching strikes because it allow me to get back some health,stamina,and magicka when I am just using light and heavy attacks.

I run into battle getting health and other resources back while taking damage and increasing my attack power so I kill my enemies faster and then when they are dead I gain my health back with increase in attack and move on to the next target.
I love this game.

timidobserver

Classes are.... classes.

ExiledKhallisi

Without classes everyone would play the exact same FOTM build.

Kalann_Pander

qiyamatawilrwb17_ESO wrote: »

i have not tried, what would you call it?, a blood mage? type nightblade but something tells me it would be less effective. casters dont NEED stealth and stealth related buffs, but nightblades do.

[...]

- nightblades do heavy single target dmg. some aoe. but all sustainability comes from attacks being siphon/bleed etc. as stated above i dont think a caster build could compare to the other classes so in my experience the class is heavily stam reliant (the only class that is so).

My main is a Breton NB Bloodmage - I only run S&B for the block passives.
When you're playing solo, it's actually quite a decent build because you take care of everything - tank/DPS/heal - all on your own. Is it perfect ? Probably not. But it gets the job done, usually without any hassle or worry at all.

timidobserver

lordspyder wrote: »

aaronlove83 wrote: »

The sigh of relief I just had was audible across nations.

Hi, I am a new player, still downloading the client, and before I even paid for my game I knew what I wanted to play. I saw the Wiki information on Templar and fell in LOVE! The class looks like it can easily be a Paladin ( I envision the Nordic "mace" which is apparently a HAMMER!? ) Heavy Armor, and Self Buffing/Healing and wading into battle with fervor!

OK Nerdgasm over... my point is that I am glad to hear that it is not gimped oin this regard. My question however is will I be pigeon-holed into healing at endgame or will tanking be a viable option?

ANY class can tank if you spec it right, I am currently playing a sorcerer tank, and it is fun as hell.

Yeh, but some classes are better at it than others. For example, in most cases a mediocre DK tank is going to be just as good if not better than a good Sorc Tank.

Guppet

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

They can do all roles as I say but these are the arch types that best fit each class. These are also how the game sets them up (regardless of some people saying NB's are warlocks in TES lore), you can see it in character select when you select the gear level, they are equipped for the roles above.

loudent

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Without classes everyone would play the exact same FOTM build.

Not everyone chases FOTM. Without classes I would be playing the exact same characters as I have now.

As for the original question about what are classes. At their core they are simply a collection of 3 skill lines.

Ninnghizhidda

Classes in ESO are just different types of "mages". If people want to fool themselves believing they are something else, fine. But they are nothing different.

I am very sorry to say, but from the countless games I have played, both MMOs and single mode ones, this design of "classes" is indeed the most fail, laughable and illogical ever, even more so taking into account the Elder Scrolls series legacy and how truly awesome ESO should have been.

A huge let down, so far.

loudent

Guppet wrote: »

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

I disagree. Beyond the fact that "best" is often situational the fact that Templars lack a mana restoration skill line means they aren't the best healers.

Not that it really matters. So far all the content is so easy you could roll with any class has healer and it would be fine. Perhaps it changes at the top level elite game play.

Guppet

loudent wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

I disagree. Beyond the fact that "best" is often situational the fact that Templars lack a mana restoration skill line means they aren't the best healers.

Not that it really matters. So far all the content is so easy you could roll with any class has healer and it would be fine. Perhaps it changes at the top level elite game play.

You disagree, but don't know what its like at top end? That would be why you disagree.

The best tank tends to be regarded as DK
The best healer tends to be regarded as Templar (the magica issues are non issues once equipped correctly, they are also the only class with burst heals and a decent ultimate heal)
The class that does best as melee DPS is Night Blade
Now Sorc may be a bit more up for debate, I was being nice giving them a role

I was quite clear that all can do all roles easily enough, but certain classes DO have advantages in certain roles.

AlexDougherty

Guppet wrote: »

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

They can do all roles as I say but these are the arch types that best fit each class. These are also how the game sets them up (regardless of some people saying NB's are warlocks in TES lore), you can see it in character select when you select the gear level, they are equipped for the roles above.

I have to disagree, my Templar is a better tank than my DK, My Sorceror ends up killing more effectively at close range, and my DK is more of a close range guy.

I haven't done a healer but quite a few people say the Nightblade can be better than the Templar, also quite a few say with a bow the Nightblade is the best ranged class. I'm going to try that with my orc Nightblade.

Guppet

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

They can do all roles as I say but these are the arch types that best fit each class. These are also how the game sets them up (regardless of some people saying NB's are warlocks in TES lore), you can see it in character select when you select the gear level, they are equipped for the roles above.

I have to disagree, my Templar is a better tank than my DK, My Sorceror ends up killing more effectively at close range, and my DK is more of a close range guy.

I haven't done a healer but quite a few people say the Nightblade can be better than the Templar, also quite a few say with a bow the Nightblade is the best ranged class. I'm going to try that with my orc Nightblade.

The nightblade is possibly better than sorc as a ranged class, I was being generous to sorc's.

For a bow no class is better than NB, especially from stealth in PVP.

Close range is not the same as melee. Close range in the game can include point based AOE. If that's what your sorc is using up close, it's not exactly a melee sorcerer.

It may be best to list the classes with each role in order of effectiveness rather than comparing class's.

AlexDougherty

Guppet wrote: »

AlexDougherty wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

While all classes in TESO can do all roles, each class has one role that they are the best at (best synergies or utilities for).

DK (Warrior) best tank
Templar (Cleric) best healer
NB (Theif) best melee
Sorc (Mage) best ranged

They can do all roles as I say but these are the arch types that best fit each class. These are also how the game sets them up (regardless of some people saying NB's are warlocks in TES lore), you can see it in character select when you select the gear level, they are equipped for the roles above.

I have to disagree, my Templar is a better tank than my DK, My Sorceror ends up killing more effectively at close range, and my DK is more of a close range guy.

I haven't done a healer but quite a few people say the Nightblade can be better than the Templar, also quite a few say with a bow the Nightblade is the best ranged class. I'm going to try that with my orc Nightblade.

The nightblade is possibly better than sorc as a ranged class, I was being generous to sorc's.

For a bow no class is better than NB, especially from stealth in PVP.

Close range is not the same as melee. Close range in the game can include point based AOE. If that's what your sorc is using up close, it's not exactly a melee sorcerer.

It may be best to list the classes with each role in order of effectiveness rather than comparing class's.

Actually my sorc ends up using the destruction staff skills, knocking back a foe then I use a variety of methods, Impulse, Crstal Shards, Lightning bolt (the single target not area one). This still might not make it melee, but it's the closest my sorc will get.

Please note, the destro staff line is only on my sorc at the minute, I haven't used it on the others.

But I do take your point about melee and close combat being different.

Aeratus

The different classes are simply different mages

Dragonknight - Fire/Earth mage
Templar - Healing/light-magic mage
Nightblade - Shadow/Mysticism mage
Sorceror - Lightning/Conjuration mage

Sleep

Class abilities provide players choices to play the way they want. If they don't use class abilities, that's fine, class doesn't exist for their characters. If they want to use class abilities they have some choices.
In my opinion if you count on class abilities a lot:
DK = melee only, dps or tank or whatever.
Templar = mostly heal, buff and debuff.
NB = Invisibility and high burst damage.
Sorcerer = range dps, summon, crowd control, just no melee.

bellanca6561n

The reason we have classes is to make games easier to design and create for developers, and easier to understand and play for customers.

That's what they're for.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Classes are a resource to your character - passives, and active abilities that supplement one's own build decisions. As a nightblade tank, veil, shade, siphoning attacks and several passives (restoring darkness, fortitude, magicka flood) Supplement my decision to be a tank.

By choosing a dk over a nightblade for a tank I directly forfeit the permanent 40% stamina recovery a large passive magicka boost, a significant (6%) boost to HP a targeted 15% damage shred and veil of blades in favor of talons, green dragons blood and the dragon knights equivalent passives.

Long story short, just like race - Class is all about opportunity cost and flavour - and am a firm believer that every class can fulfil every role at a 'close to optimal' level.

For instance, with healing - all 3 non - templar classes have EXTREMELY strong potential synergy with a healing staff. Sorcs with strong magicka regen and surge to overcharge weapon damage can dish out insanely strong resto staff heals (including 700+ health critical heals on the entire group with blessing of restoration) DKs with igneous shield and molten armaments bolster group damage whilst pushing out similarly powerful heals with a staff. Nightblades get a massively powerful healing ultimate that is instant cast and can thus stack with other heals, have means to boost weapon damage insanely high, get free + magicka and have a quite strong supplementary heal.

(PS hitting yourself and 3 other members with a 700 health heal using blessing of restoration does more than hitting 1 member with a 1.2k heal and 2 with a 600 damage heal with breath of life, and costs less, thus with good group coordination and positioning, blessing of restoration is optimal over bol)

TLDR: Classes are opportunity cost and flavour.

Guppet

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Classes are a resource to your character - passives, and active abilities that supplement one's own build decisions. As a nightblade tank, veil, shade, siphoning attacks and several passives (restoring darkness, fortitude, magicka flood) Supplement my decision to be a tank.

By choosing a dk over a nightblade for a tank I directly forfeit the permanent 40% stamina recovery a large passive magicka boost, a significant (6%) boost to HP a targeted 15% damage shred and veil of blades in favor of talons, green dragons blood and the dragon knights equivalent passives.

Long story short, just like race - Class is all about opportunity cost and flavour - and am a firm believer that every class can fulfil every role at a 'close to optimal' level.

For instance, with healing - all 3 non - templar classes have EXTREMELY strong potential synergy with a healing staff. Sorcs with strong magicka regen and surge to overcharge weapon damage can dish out insanely strong resto staff heals (including 700+ health critical heals on the entire group with blessing of restoration) DKs with igneous shield and molten armaments bolster group damage whilst pushing out similarly powerful heals with a staff. Nightblades get a massively powerful healing ultimate that is instant cast and can thus stack with other heals, have means to boost weapon damage insanely high, get free + magicka and have a quite strong supplementary heal.

(PS hitting yourself and 3 other members with a 700 health heal using blessing of restoration does more than hitting 1 member with a 1.2k heal and 2 with a 600 damage heal with breath of life, and costs less, thus with good group coordination and positioning, blessing of restoration is optimal over bol)

TLDR: Classes are opportunity cost and flavour.

This is probably the best way of looking at it. Most people are not really min maxers, so your class is pretty much your flavour. Your role is pretty much determined by your weapon.

There are a few solid distinctions though.

Only a Sorcerer is a pet class.
Only a Templar can heal effectively without a resto staff.

Not really sure of the unique selling points of DK or NB, I have a VR 6 NB and can't think of anything, maybe stealth attack, but the others can do that, so it's not unique.

Guess Sorc or Temp give you the best options then.

Rhaegon

As I understand, they meant the classes not to be significant in the gameplay and to improve this idea, they are going to make spellcraft system, that will make class less important, and only count as a skill tree not interfering in the actual role of the character. That's my view of it.

Darkonflare15

Rhaegon wrote: »

As I understand, they meant the classes not to be significant in the gameplay and to improve this idea, they are going to make spellcraft system, that will make class less important, and only count as a skill tree not interfering in the actual role of the character. That's my view of it.

Yeah I always thought of classes as build skeletons. I use it for its passives and skills that I think would be perfect for my build. I mean they give several different skill lines with passives and skills that we can use with our class abilities. Like vampire,werewolf,soul, 6 different weapon skill lines, undaunted, mages guild, fighters guild, Armor, and AvA and then we have three skill lines from our classes.
Then have much to look forward to improvements to these skills, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves guild, and spell crafting skill lines, which will bring in host of new choices for builds.

ExiledKhallisi

Sleep wrote: »

Class abilities provide players choices to play the way they want. If they don't use class abilities, that's fine, class doesn't exist for their characters. If they want to use class abilities they have some choices.
In my opinion if you count on class abilities a lot:
DK = melee only, dps or tank or whatever.
Templar = mostly heal, buff and debuff.
NB = Invisibility and high burst damage.
Sorcerer = range dps, summon, crowd control, just no melee.

Sorc no melee you say....



Please....

loudent

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

Sleep wrote: »

Class abilities provide players choices to play the way they want. If they don't use class abilities, that's fine, class doesn't exist for their characters. If they want to use class abilities they have some choices.
In my opinion if you count on class abilities a lot:
DK = melee only, dps or tank or whatever.
Templar = mostly heal, buff and debuff.
NB = Invisibility and high burst damage.
Sorcerer = range dps, summon, crowd control, just no melee.

Sorc no melee you say....



Please....

Hey, what is that mod that shows current/cap numbers on stats?

adriant1978

loudent wrote: »

Hey, what is that mod that shows current/cap numbers on stats?

Here you go:

http://www.esoui.com/downloads/info141-1.2.1.html