Can we talk about the 'No Naming and Shaming' policy please?

Mahogany

i saw @Malveria exploiting the other day but i have no proof nd i just thot i would post here so that everyone else could see that i have a real complaint about something that i dont even really remember all that well anymore he/she was totally cheating tho i know it.

/sarcasm

OrangeTheCat

Syntse wrote: »

Naming ans Shaming policy has been long time on forums that include PvP. Butthurt kids will call anyone who kill them as hacker, this is more common in FPS games. So in case of naming and shaming is it enough for one butthurt kid to claim someone as hacker on forums? Or should possible hacker be reported and have people who can actually review logs etc determine if that person really is cheating or not.

So someone has been named and called hacker by half of the community and word of mouth has reached also people who do not read forums that this person is hacker. Then it has been investigated by the devs and found nothing wrong. Now this person is stamped as hacker even though he does all thing by the book, it will take loads of time and effort to clear his name that he didn't even deserve in the first place.

If you doubt foul play, report it, ask your friends who saw the same to report. Let devs investigate and determine if there is something wrong or not.

Stopped reading after "butthurt". I can't take seriously someone who can't discuss without using insulting language and making unreasonable assumptions.

Ghostbane

The policy is in place to reduce the workload for our higher authority.

Although, naming players in general. I have not read the rules specifically, but can you name someone in positive tones? For example, to complain about a known cheater, over-prose a sonnet of their works. To compliment them over bearingly to the point it seems fictional.

If you don't specifically shame them, but praise them in detail for their work in discovering and successfully utilising an exploit, it should not be breaking the rules?

WarrioroftheWind_ESO

Fairly certain a "no naming and shaming policy" is common on any MMO. That being said, many MMO's where cheating/hacking/xploiting can quickly ruin the game for the majority usually have a swift and unforgiving stance on the matter. Incidents are investigated and if found in the wrong dealt with impunity. I don't play EVE Online myself but I believe they aggressively pursue incidents.

While there are alot of accusations leveled against players that try to shrug off claims as them simply being too 'good to be dealt with' by the 'random scrub player', there are obvious cases of hacking or exploiting. Being that this is a francise that has historically been single player, it may be that Zeni doesn't have the experience or even the staff to deal with the pressure of a MMO environment. There's other avenues besides the forums to examine and scrutinize players suspected as exploiting the system for their own gain.

Cody

Syntse wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

if a player is named on the forums, for cheating, or are video tapped for it, the least ZOS could do, is stop being a bunch of cowards, and at least investigate them.

Since when forum has been the official way of reporting cheaters? So instead of reporting official way so the information goes fast to people who investigate. It's better to name on forum where moderator might notice the message at some point, then tell about it to proper team to check and that might take days or week.

Also using RL example it's better that on a market I see you put your hand in your pocket I start yelling 'thief, thief, thief' pointing you so everyone will turn and look at you instead of telling one authority that will come to check if that hand actually had some goods that were stolen.

Maybe after investigated and proven guilty there could be some kind of wall of shame, but not before.

well please forgive me, if I am just a tinny tad bit frustrated to see all the reports I file have no affect on obvious cheaters. God forbid I want something done.

and if I get robbed in broad daylight....... with other people around, I will yell "thief!" and believe it or not, people may actually come help!:)(course I will still chase the piece of crpa and kick their (snip)

now for MY RL example... if your house was getting constantly robbed, and you knew EXACTLY who was doing it, yet you report them countless times, and nothing is done... will you not do something?

Cody

Elsterchen wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Clearly none of you understand how often idiots think someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting and claim they do. That's why the policy is there.

me watching someone who spamed the mage mercenaries, that ZOS removed from the game, for a very good reason, a week after I reported him, STILL allowed to play, is not good. this is not the only instance. Just ask around. Plenty of examples people will give you.

as far as i know those mercenaries that had been bought before ZOS removed them from the game were not refunded and ALLOWED to be used. Just read the announcement carefully, dear.

... and getting my arse handed over to me pretty often in PVP - I still believe that the majority of players sticks to the rules. Use the ingame report if you really think something fishy is going on, someone on the other end of the line will have a look at your request.

if they were removed, then don't you think ZOS does not want people using them? think on it, "dear"(I don't know why, but calling someone you don't know "dear" just sounds.... odd... to me) I HAVE used the in game report. its the first thing I do. I don't mindlessly run to the forums and cry about it. I do actually wait to see if anything gets done.

Tintinabula

Cody wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

if a player is named on the forums, for cheating, or are video tapped for it, the least ZOS could do, is stop being a bunch of cowards, and at least investigate them.

Since when forum has been the official way of reporting cheaters? So instead of reporting official way so the information goes fast to people who investigate. It's better to name on forum where moderator might notice the message at some point, then tell about it to proper team to check and that might take days or week.

Also using RL example it's better that on a market I see you put your hand in your pocket I start yelling 'thief, thief, thief' pointing you so everyone will turn and look at you instead of telling one authority that will come to check if that hand actually had some goods that were stolen.

Maybe after investigated and proven guilty there could be some kind of wall of shame, but not before.

well please forgive me, if I am just a tinny tad bit frustrated to see all the reports I file have no affect on obvious cheaters. God forbid I want something done.

and if I get robbed in broad daylight....... with other people around, I will yell "thief!" and believe it or not, people may actually come help!:)(course I will still chase the piece of crpa and kick their (snip)

now for MY RL example... if your house was getting constantly robbed, and you knew EXACTLY who was doing it, yet you report them countless times, and nothing is done... will you not do something?

I would report to the police dept NOT the Inquirer.

Sypher

Stop naming and shaming the "No Naming and Shaming Rule" .. You hurt it's feelings god damn it.

Rylana

Monsoon

all those gold sellers with names like qweqweqwqew...woud be a shame to name and shame them because because ...you know...they are real people and not bots and you know how naming and shaming bots is frowned upon in some dark societies and erp larp groups.

Oh wait did I just wrote the name of a bot...haaa crap ban incoming, I should have been more careful in protecting that bot exploiter's rights
/s

Syntse

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Stopped reading after "butthurt". I can't take seriously someone who can't discuss without using insulting language and making unreasonable assumptions.

That you can do. Just used terms common in the FPS scene to illustrate how it is. I can tell that it's far worse than in here for haxusations, calling cheater or exploiter.

Tintinabula wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

Syntse wrote: »

Cody wrote: »

if a player is named on the forums, for cheating, or are video tapped for it, the least ZOS could do, is stop being a bunch of cowards, and at least investigate them.

Also using RL example it's better that on a market I see you put your hand in your pocket I start yelling 'thief, thief, thief' pointing you so everyone will turn and look at you instead of telling one authority that will come to check if that hand actually had some goods that were stolen.

Maybe after investigated and proven guilty there could be some kind of wall of shame, but not before.

well please forgive me, if I am just a tinny tad bit frustrated to see all the reports I file have no affect on obvious cheaters. God forbid I want something done.

and if I get robbed in broad daylight....... with other people around, I will yell "thief!" and believe it or not, people may actually come help!:)(course I will still chase the piece of crpa and kick their (snip)

now for MY RL example... if your house was getting constantly robbed, and you knew EXACTLY who was doing it, yet you report them countless times, and nothing is done... will you not do something?

I would report to the police dept NOT the Inquirer.

Just like he said ^. So house gets robbed every week and authority doesn't do anything. Think they will do more if you go on the street and yell to your neighbors that Nelson from neighboring town does it?

Yet again what does it do to you other than maybe small personal achievement to call out someone on public if yet still nothing is done to the person. At least now everyone knows what that guy is? But he still continues to do what ever he does.

And we are missing the point here anyway. I know most of you have played these games for 50 years and can spot exploiter, cheater, hacker just by looking at their name. However if the caller just happens to be wrong for reason or another. Shamed person who really doesn't deserve it, now everyone will avoid him, not play with him, call him cheater all the time. Yes I'm sure you think that it's small price to pay to catch those who really cheat.

If public naming & shaming would be allowed then I would also support the idea that was presented before that if false accusation is done then the person who made it would get banned.

Could be that ZoS is bad at taking actions against those who break the rules (at least on forums they are not). Or could be that they do not have enough evidence, information, data to do anything. They have tens reports that describe 'cheater', 'exploiter', 'doesn't die', 'does too much damage' etc. I hope they have proper descriptions and video evidence. It's not that hard nowdays to record gameplay. Just about all nVidia users can use shadowplay and for ATI there's fraps for example. Also Zos might be trying to record on their own to find out how exactly the cheat or exploit is done so they can fix it and after that ban the player.

Shaun98ca2

The only real fix is ZOS needs to go in and make a hardcore change.....

Faction selection. While you can make an alt to play in any faction you have to choose a PVP faction to play in. Now with that faction chosen you cant play in a different factions PVP. Make changing PVP factions a PITA for people to do and simply non-viable for abuse.

kewl

The enforcement of this policy is so inconsistent, it's hardy worth discussing.

Mendoze

Rules of the "No naming and shaming" club:
1) You do not talk about "No naming and shaming" club.
2) You do NOT talk about "No naming and shaming" club
3) If somebody says "I did it" or goes limp, taps out the fight is over.
4) Only two guys to a fight
5) One fight at the time
6) No videos or pictures in the fighting threads.
7) Fights go as long as they have to
8) If this is your first fight, you have to post a silly comment like this one

Dleatherus

the problem isn't with the naming and shaming policy

the problem is with their apparent lack of actions and communication regarding what is/isn't an exploit and their dealing of exploiters - this is the source of frustration so many of us express here on these forums and subsequently running into conflict with their naming and shaming policy

(i say apparent because they might indeed be working very hard regarding exploits - not seeing or knowing that compounds our mob mentality of 'they do nothing')

due to not knowing whether a player might be exploiting or simply a skilled player playing in a manner with skills/invulnerability that are so way beyond what we have seen or experienced until now, it becomes natural to think that some foul play might be behind it

All it takes is a simple brief communication from ZOS to the effect of:

1) Players have recently been reporting instances of running into invincible players.
We have investigated the players reported and found that they are playing utilizing game mechanics in a way intended, and have not yet found an 'invincible player exploit'
Please continue to report incidents where you think a player is cheating or exploiting to help us maintain the spirit of the game that we believe is important to our community

2) Players have recently been reporting instances of running into invincible players
We have investigated the players reported and found that there is a way to manipulate several abilities in a certain combination that achieves unintended results
The players in question have been asked to refrain from using this particular 'system'
we are working on a fix that might take a bit of time to implement due to the overlapping code of the various abilities
in the meantime players continuing to implement this invulnerability exploit will receive a warning and further infractions will result in our enforcing our policy regarding exploits

it is the lack of such a system that out of frustration drives us to these forums due to the seeming lack of results of reporting in game

unfortunately it is our only recourse where we think the matter will gain some visibility - just as unfortunate is that we can all to easily and unintentionally turn into digital vigilantes that digitally lynch innocent players

@ZOS, step up and police your own game in a visible and effective manner

TY

D.

darkdruidssb14_ESO

Well said D.

The policy is fine, but we need more communication from ZOS. That has been a common request since beta. ZOS just doesn't communicate effectively or timely with it's player base which leads to frustration that COULD have been avoided. Some of the players that have left the game over the months may not have left if they felt ZOS was paying attention and being active in resolving issues.

All we usually get is a "we are looking into that" 2-3 months after an issue was first reported. Then we get a "we fixed it internally and it will be in a patch soon for live". After all that.. months down the line.. we get a patch that supposedly fixes something, but these large issues seem to be very difficult for ZOS to nail down. Then we have to wait longer for their next "fix" or communication that they even realized their "fix" didn't work.... it's frustrating when you really like a game and want it to do well.

DICE finally realized it. EA realized it and is sending surveys to their customers now. Then you have companies like Carbine Studios that spends hours communicating with their player base every week....

Social media... Twitter and Reddit.. Facebook... let us know something is going on. Hire a small media team that only does things like that for you. Even the company I work for has a small media team just for that purpose. ZOS has to get better at this.

Bezilar

Columba wrote: »

we all know who the 3-4 blatant cheaters are. this policy protects them from the hatred they deserve.

No need to H8, it's not healthy.