Can we talk about the 'No Naming and Shaming' policy please?

Malveria · September 2014

Honestly, this policy, whilst it has good intentions, is only hurting people who want to actually help improve this game. As far as I can see it, there is a difference between 'naming and shaming' and 'This person is actually breaking your rules'.

Whilst we can quibble over the definition of rule breaking (such as exploits etc), there are definitive things that are happening in places such as PVP, such as public harassment, troll camping and blatant disruptive conduct that we cannot do anything about because Zenimax is protecting the people who are hurting the people who are trying to help, and play the game legitimately.

We're not asking for people to flame, or for people to hate on them in the forums, but just so different timezones can talk to one another, different factions, etc, and communicate the people we know are doing these things, and have confirmed, and seen with our own eyes.

It's not 'Naming and Shaming' to just say 'I saw this person doing this, did anyone else see it?' If people can't conduct themselves maturely, deal with those people, but don't force a gag on the entire forum when people are trying to help, and Zeni is far more preoccupied with warning people who want to do something about this, rather than punishing the guilty parties.

Draxys · September 2014

I fully agree... Hopefully they'll look into their protocol for this.

Syntse · September 2014

Naming ans Shaming policy has been long time on forums that include PvP. Butthurt kids will call anyone who kill them as hacker, this is more common in FPS games. So in case of naming and shaming is it enough for one butthurt kid to claim someone as hacker on forums? Or should possible hacker be reported and have people who can actually review logs etc determine if that person really is cheating or not.

So someone has been named and called hacker by half of the community and word of mouth has reached also people who do not read forums that this person is hacker. Then it has been investigated by the devs and found nothing wrong. Now this person is stamped as hacker even though he does all thing by the book, it will take loads of time and effort to clear his name that he didn't even deserve in the first place.

If you doubt foul play, report it, ask your friends who saw the same to report. Let devs investigate and determine if there is something wrong or not.

Forestd16b14_ESO · September 2014

There is a fine line between "shaming" and the truth sure there's at least one guy we all came across once who clearly is breaking rules or trash talking just cause he killed one guy or soloed a high level field boss and we all want to tell them to shut up. But here's a question what are your thought on boosting or adding insult to injury. You know some one saying there unstoppable just cause there breaking rule or abusing broken skills just to advance in PvP to become emperor? Me i am all for a hard time little trash talk here and there to keep up with the lore of ESO but not if it ruins the game for the other factions as a lot of other players and guilds are doing. Like the "buff severs" cause of those there only one sever that has anything on it and we all know what sever that it. So in my opinion I think the whole policy needs some working on so we can fix these issue and say who is doing what. So those players who don't want the issue fix can either learn to play the game right or get off and stop ruining the game for us real players. But that's my humble thought on the subject sure every one else has a view on the matter.

Columba · September 2014

we all know who the 3-4 blatant cheaters are. this policy protects them from the hatred they deserve.

driosketch · September 2014

Realistically, what do you expect would be the benefit of being able name cheating players?

That ZOS will ban them? Unlikely.

That we can all hate on them as a community? If they're taunting you with their actions in game, they'd probably feed off the negative attention.

Perhaps some feel a big enough mob of the latter will force ZOS's hand on the first part. That doesn't sound like it would set a dangerous precedent to you?

Columba · September 2014

i expect everyone to trash them.

dcincali · September 2014

APB reloaded has an anti cheat program and they publish names of the banned on their forums. Would be nice of ZOS did the same as a deterrent for those thinking they could do it and get away with it. As it is, we only know someone got banned if they us themselves, and then they could lie about it. If they published the names or allowed us to talk about it, I would feel more confident in reporting suspicious behavior since I KNOW something is being done about it when I report XXX Person and I see them on the banned list. #morningwin

Huntler · September 2014

Clearly none of you understand how often idiots think someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting and claim they do. That's why the policy is there.

Lava_Croft · September 2014

It's just a game. There's no need to name and shame online personas over a computer game. Having them removed from the game is the only thing that matters.

Giraffon · September 2014

The policy needs to stay the way it is. If you feel like someone is cheating you should report to Zenimax and let them deal with it. If they get enough reports about the same people, they will investigate further.

A public forum just isn't the place for that.

Voodoo · September 2014

yep way to much effort is focused on the "cheaters", Just report them and move on, We don't need to see their heads mounted on a stake in the forums to have some satisfaction that you got them banned ,,,that would open up a whole can of worms.

Nope best to report / ignore and move on and enjoy the game. Dont need a witch hunt, let ZOS do that behind the scenes while you get back to playing.

The amount of flaming and bad blood in these forums about pvp is among the worst I've seen in any MMO. Save it for the battle field.

Huntler · September 2014

Whats worse is the rampant overuse of the excuse that the enemy must be cheating.... *eyeroll* not that many people are exploiting/cheating. People refuse to believe it though. Then when the people they spam report don't get banned they blame Zeni that they don't ban cheaters or do anything.... not the far more likely reason that the player wasn't cheating and the reporter is just an idiot.

MorHawk · September 2014

There are a lot of ZOS's policies I disagree with. This isn't one of them.
We have enough high school drama on here, thanks.

Elsonso · September 2014

Malveria wrote: »

Honestly, this policy, whilst it has good intentions, is only hurting people who want to actually help improve this game. As far as I can see it, there is a difference between 'naming and shaming' and 'This person is actually breaking your rules'.

Whilst we can quibble over the definition of rule breaking (such as exploits etc), there are definitive things that are happening in places such as PVP, such as public harassment, troll camping and blatant disruptive conduct that we cannot do anything about because Zenimax is protecting the people who are hurting the people who are trying to help, and play the game legitimately.

We're not asking for people to flame, or for people to hate on them in the forums, but just so different timezones can talk to one another, different factions, etc, and communicate the people we know are doing these things, and have confirmed, and seen with our own eyes.

It's not 'Naming and Shaming' to just say 'I saw this person doing this, did anyone else see it?' If people can't conduct themselves maturely, deal with those people, but don't force a gag on the entire forum when people are trying to help, and Zeni is far more preoccupied with warning people who want to do something about this, rather than punishing the guilty parties.

Two things at play here.

1) The naming and shaming rules are there for very good reasons and I honestly expect them to never go away. I would be very surprised if complaining about it will change anything. They are there for your protection, the protection of the named individual, and for the protection of Zenimax.

2) The people who are slapping hands in here about naming and shaming are not the people who are responsible for in-game behavior. While I am sure that many people would like Gina or Jessica to pop into the game and smite down the cheaters and exploiters, that is not their job. (That is not to say they would turn down the opportunity)

My suggestion: Submit the names and the picture and video evidence to Zenimax privately and talk about them in public without the name. I do not know how rigid the rules are about what constitutes a "name" but if you can get away with using a description, or the ticket number, you might try that.

Cody · September 2014

This policy is just a cleverly disguised way for ZOS to encourage; protect, and support, cheaters. its pathetic. The policy has good intentions, but there are times where the policy has to be ignored: if a player is named on the forums, for cheating, or are video tapped for it, the least ZOS could do, is stop being a bunch of cowards, and at least investigate them. not freak out the moment they see a player name and close the thread/and/or suspend/ban the player calling the cheater out.

Will they lose subs? yes. will it be the cheaters sub they lose? yes. Will tons more players come to replace this one cheater? yes. If ZOS does not improve their stance, they will see a mass exodus of players from this game. I would hate to see this game crash and burn, all because the developers were either unable, or to cowardly, to deal with these people.

I imagine this post will be took down, and I may end up getting suspended/banned, as I have violated this "policy" many times. That's fine, long as I could get my point across, I really don't care.

Cody · September 2014

Huntler wrote: »

Clearly none of you understand how often idiots think someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting and claim they do. That's why the policy is there.

me watching someone who spamed the mage mercenaries, that ZOS removed from the game, for a very good reason, a week after I reported him, STILL allowed to play, is not good. this is not the only instance. Just ask around. Plenty of examples people will give you.

rackman · September 2014

Malveria wrote: »

Honestly, this policy, whilst it has good intentions, is only hurting people who want to actually help improve this game. As far as I can see it, there is a difference between 'naming and shaming' and 'This person is actually breaking your rules'.

Whilst we can quibble over the definition of rule breaking (such as exploits etc), there are definitive things that are happening in places such as PVP, such as public harassment, troll camping and blatant disruptive conduct that we cannot do anything about because Zenimax is protecting the people who are hurting the people who are trying to help, and play the game legitimately.

We're not asking for people to flame, or for people to hate on them in the forums, but just so different timezones can talk to one another, different factions, etc, and communicate the people we know are doing these things, and have confirmed, and seen with our own eyes.

It's not 'Naming and Shaming' to just say 'I saw this person doing this, did anyone else see it?' If people can't conduct themselves maturely, deal with those people, but don't force a gag on the entire forum when people are trying to help, and Zeni is far more preoccupied with warning people who want to do something about this, rather than punishing the guilty parties.

That because DOminion does most the exploits

Cody · September 2014

rackman wrote: »

Malveria wrote: »

Honestly, this policy, whilst it has good intentions, is only hurting people who want to actually help improve this game. As far as I can see it, there is a difference between 'naming and shaming' and 'This person is actually breaking your rules'.

Whilst we can quibble over the definition of rule breaking (such as exploits etc), there are definitive things that are happening in places such as PVP, such as public harassment, troll camping and blatant disruptive conduct that we cannot do anything about because Zenimax is protecting the people who are hurting the people who are trying to help, and play the game legitimately.

We're not asking for people to flame, or for people to hate on them in the forums, but just so different timezones can talk to one another, different factions, etc, and communicate the people we know are doing these things, and have confirmed, and seen with our own eyes.

It's not 'Naming and Shaming' to just say 'I saw this person doing this, did anyone else see it?' If people can't conduct themselves maturely, deal with those people, but don't force a gag on the entire forum when people are trying to help, and Zeni is far more preoccupied with warning people who want to do something about this, rather than punishing the guilty parties.

That because DOminion does most the exploits

and here comes all those "elite" AD guilds... in 3....2.....1.......

StienDeath · September 2014

Malveria i totally agree

FluffiestOne · September 2014

Fluffy has banned all the cheaters, with the help of Cat Army. You can thank me later, he-who-shall-not-be-named is gone, for good.

Syntse · September 2014

Cody wrote: »

if a player is named on the forums, for cheating, or are video tapped for it, the least ZOS could do, is stop being a bunch of cowards, and at least investigate them.

Since when forum has been the official way of reporting cheaters? So instead of reporting official way so the information goes fast to people who investigate. It's better to name on forum where moderator might notice the message at some point, then tell about it to proper team to check and that might take days or week.

Also using RL example it's better that on a market I see you put your hand in your pocket I start yelling 'thief, thief, thief' pointing you so everyone will turn and look at you instead of telling one authority that will come to check if that hand actually had some goods that were stolen.

Maybe after investigated and proven guilty there could be some kind of wall of shame, but not before.

Glantris · September 2014

i'm naming and shaving... wait

Phinix1 · September 2014

SOLUTION:

Get video evidence, like many have done against the cheater who's mage-like name rhymes with "Thinksey," and start a thread on Reddit that stays bumped and updated with that list of cheaters and videos of them in action.

Spread the URL by word of mouth. Put it in your signature. Tell everyone in your guild. Spam it in every zone chat you visit.

Make sure the focus of the Hall of Shame is to encourage people to report these players with a link back to the video evidence insisting that ZOS enforce their TOS and ban them. The more people that report them in-game, the more likely they will be PERMANENTLY banned, as they deserve.

The real goal of naming and shaming is NOT to shame the cheaters. The real goal IS TO SHAME ZOS into actually DOING something about them.

GwaynLoki · September 2014

I am against this, simply because I know firsthand how biased and unwilling to think about alternatives to "he is clearly cheating" people are. (Skip next two paragraphs if you aren't interested in details)
I played a Sentinel (FotM-class but non-cookie-cutter build at that time) in SW:TOR and had lots of fun with my build in PvP. One advantage of it was that I was able to buff my groups speed regularly by a nice margin. The annoyance started out simple: Two people went out of their way to kill me, even when there were clearly more important targets. I didn't think too much about it, but some time later I got a whisper by someone from the other faction, telling me I was getting reported every match by half the enemy team for speed-hacking. Ofc I was confused and told him about my build that allowed me to boost my groups speed legitimately (I never cheated in any online game because everything you achieve by cheating is worthless and destroying the fun of other people which is just outright rude and selfish).
A friend of mine told me he had a similar problem: Running a highly effective build that allowed him to take on multiple players and survive while killing them he got reported by many people and in the end had to defend his actions in a questioning by a staff member of the game. He was cleared and continued playing.
Sorry for these long-breathed examples, but my point is this:
TL;DR I shudder to think what players would do if Zeni provided them with some means to voice their "opinions" to a big part of the playerbase. They can't prevent you from doing it on other forums, but I don't think they should enable this in any media under their control. I am well aware there are obviously some people in this game cheating, but often enough those scratching-your-head-and-wondering-what-happened-there-moments can be easily explained. There are, unfortunately, lots of ways to extremely boost your performance legitimately without having to use exploits or hacks.

philip.ploegerb16_ESO · September 2014

Columba wrote: »

we all know who the 3-4 blatant cheaters are. this policy protects them from the hatred they deserve.

Hatred is the way to the wrong side.

Elsonso · September 2014

FluffiestOne wrote: »

The real goal of naming and shaming is NOT to shame the cheaters. The real goal IS TO SHAME ZOS into actually DOING something about them.

How's that workin' out for ya?

Faolanhart · September 2014

I've had a video removed because of this rule.
All it was was a bunch of bots coming out of wayshrines like a disturbed ant nest with cheesy music playing on top.
The aim of the video was simply to laugh at just how ridiculous bots had become.
But removed because we couldn't have the names of bots known, imagine all the hate mail they'd get.....

Phinix1 · September 2014

Faolanhart wrote: »

I've had a video removed because of this rule.
All it was was a bunch of bots coming out of wayshrines like a disturbed ant nest with cheesy music playing on top.
The aim of the video was simply to laugh at just how ridiculous bots had become.
But removed because we couldn't have the names of bots known, imagine all the hate mail they'd get.....

Well, we wouldn't want little asdfgdsa or ouihoiuh to get their feelings hurt!

Elsterchen · September 2014

Cody wrote: »

Huntler wrote: »

Clearly none of you understand how often idiots think someone is cheating, hacking, exploiting and claim they do. That's why the policy is there.

me watching someone who spamed the mage mercenaries, that ZOS removed from the game, for a very good reason, a week after I reported him, STILL allowed to play, is not good. this is not the only instance. Just ask around. Plenty of examples people will give you.

as far as i know those mercenaries that had been bought before ZOS removed them from the game were not refunded and ALLOWED to be used. Just read the announcement carefully, dear.

... and getting my arse handed over to me pretty often in PVP - I still believe that the majority of players sticks to the rules. Use the ingame report if you really think something fishy is going on, someone on the other end of the line will have a look at your request.

Tintinabula · September 2014

Ok lets make it this way..if you name and shame and find out you're mistaken YOU get the ban.

Ive been named and shamed before for being V16 and the player clearly didn't know about PvP ranks.