ESO - the only MMO where everyone can be a Rogue class.

Nestor

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

Most NB won't wear HA, at least for a long. As for Sneak, there is no class that gains more damage from a Sneak Critical than a NB or has more protection coming out of Sneak than a NB (Shadow Barrier makes you practically invincible coming out of Sneak/Stealth for instance). There is no other class that offers as much Burst damage as a NB when leveraging Sneak and the NB Passives.

What NB's don't have is any decent AoE and their DPS is not as sustainable as other classes, so that is the trade off. Which is why I even put a stick on my NB once I was in the 40's, trash mobs were my undoing. Bosses were not a problem. 5 Skeleton Adds? That was the death of me.

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO

This one uses a three piece Nightshade set (Helmet and 2 daggers) in Cyrodiil when sneaking around and I get the drop on other enemy Khajiit's (who are in sneak) all the time since this set decreases my detection radius while I am in stealth even further than the others. The set also decreases my Stamina sneak cost by 22-24%.

That is awesome as I can sneak way further and longer than others with just Medium armor.

Link-http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Nightshade+Set

When I am ready to attack someone, I then switch to my other more powerful daggers and attack them from stealth.

And yes this set can be used by anyone but Khajiit Nightblades wearing full medium armor (7/7) really shine using this set.

Now if you use the 5 pc Nights Silence set (60% more sneak speed) and Concealed Weapon (25% sneak speed at Rank 4), then you move fast and have great stealth as well.

I rarely if ever get found while sneaking and if I do, I either kill my enemy fast or I use Shadow Cloak (which is going to be fixed in 1.4 hopefully) to get away and then back to Sneak and I switch back to the Nightshade set so my detection radius decreases even more.

This is what Nightblades should be able to do, sneak really well, attack fast and hard and kill the enemy quickly and then fade away into the shadows..

I think that when the Shadow Cloak ability is fixed (soon, 1.4 patch) and then the Magicka/Stamina imbalance is fixed (further down the line) that Nightblades will be a class to be reckoned with.

zaria

Tenofas wrote: »

No... sneaking is not like going in stealth, and this is possible only for nightblades.
Two different things.

This, normal sneak has two uses outside of bow sneak atack, one is to get past some enemies while questing, the eye icon is probably more important as it show if they will agro on you.

Second is PvP again here its more strategical, you can sneak to avoid getting spotted by enemy players, you can not get close enough for melee attacks.

Maulkin

Nestor wrote: »

What NB's don't have is any decent AoE and their DPS is not as sustainable as other classes, so that is the trade off. Which is why I even put a stick on my NB once I was in the 40's, trash mobs were my undoing. Bosses were not a problem. 5 Skeleton Adds? That was the death of me.

You're playing a whole different game to us.

Sap Essence/Power Extraction is one of the best AoEs (if not the best) in the game and as evidenced by all the trials times that involve 6+ NBs, sustain on DPS is not an issue.

NBs in PvP suffer to the combination of the following issues:
a) a broken Cloak
b) lack of a shield spell and
c) lack of a heal spell

...their DPS and its sustain are not an issue.

kitsinni

Pseudonym wrote: »

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

Until I tag you with Piercing Mark from 50 meters away and you're now unable to stealth.

Nightblades have a ton of stealth utility, huge surprise damage and massive single target damage. I'm not saying they're fine, but they're the best at what they do.

Nightblades don't do all that much more damage than anyone else. Take bow for example we can use a passives to do more damage for that one attack out of stealth and have our weapon damage buffed for that one attack, but we sacrifice having our weapon damage buffed the way a Sorc or DK could for every follow up attack so it about evens out to the same amount of damage. Again that is only one shot. I guess we also get some armor/spell resists but it is only for 4 seconds. Oh and the "extra stun" time which equals nothing because it can still be broken instantly which also makes all of our other possibilities of stunning again in that fight.

We don't really have anything stealth specific if you want to be in melee range a 2 Hander can do as much damage as surprise attack can. I honestly don't see how they have a real advantage from stealth as opposed to any other class.

reften

NBs are the best at it, especially those with sneaking racial passives, medium armor, and the right skills.

But, I do think other classes are not penalized enough for it. Should deplete stamina more than it does. BUT, everyone should be able to sneak, because that's ESO's strategy.

morvegil

GnatB wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

You haven't played UO, have you? Skill based system, any character can do anything.

ESO is somewhat skill based... and I'd point out, medium armor passives makes sneaking in heavy inferior.


ESO doesn't really have classes. It has spell schools. You can make a "roguelike" class with a character specialized in pretty much any of the spell schools.

I was a Dreadlord in UO

morvegil

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

I actually have to say that in a number of MMO's I have played, other classes could sneak.

However, in general they snuck POORLY, and only the stealth class could make really effective use of sneak, and generally they had some substantial passives or buffs on their sneak ability.

In this game, the only modifiers on how well you sneak are race and armor. Any Khajiit DK in medium armor can operate in sneak as well as my Nightblade.

And there are only 3 abilties in the entire Nightblade class that actually improve use of sneak (through damage and armor buffs, and a minor sneak speed boost that you have to choose over an offensive morph), and one ability that causes stealth, and that one ability (cloak) works less effectively than invisibility pots. There are ZERO abilities in the Nightblade line that actually reduce your detection radius, or overcome detection measures, or really do anything to make Nightblades sneakier than other classes.

Yes, ESO is a game where you can mix and match and do anything. But why the heck do I want to be a Nightblade tank? Why wouldn't I be a DK tank, a class that actually has skills and passives that improve tanking? Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

I think the OP's point is that sneak can be used equally effectively by almost every class, so it makes Nightblade into a superfluous class, because the few stealth advantages we have aren't worth the disadvantages we have in other areas.

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

What this guy said ^^^. Im not QQing...i just think its funny that the NB is a "Rogue" class that doesnt do anything better then a sneaking Sorc.

DenverRalphy

morvegil wrote: »

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

I actually have to say that in a number of MMO's I have played, other classes could sneak.

However, in general they snuck POORLY, and only the stealth class could make really effective use of sneak, and generally they had some substantial passives or buffs on their sneak ability.

In this game, the only modifiers on how well you sneak are race and armor. Any Khajiit DK in medium armor can operate in sneak as well as my Nightblade.

And there are only 3 abilties in the entire Nightblade class that actually improve use of sneak (through damage and armor buffs, and a minor sneak speed boost that you have to choose over an offensive morph), and one ability that causes stealth, and that one ability (cloak) works less effectively than invisibility pots. There are ZERO abilities in the Nightblade line that actually reduce your detection radius, or overcome detection measures, or really do anything to make Nightblades sneakier than other classes.

Yes, ESO is a game where you can mix and match and do anything. But why the heck do I want to be a Nightblade tank? Why wouldn't I be a DK tank, a class that actually has skills and passives that improve tanking? Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

I think the OP's point is that sneak can be used equally effectively by almost every class, so it makes Nightblade into a superfluous class, because the few stealth advantages we have aren't worth the disadvantages we have in other areas.

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

What this guy said ^^^. Im not QQing...i just think its funny that the NB is a "Rogue" class that doesnt do anything better then a sneaking Sorc.

Well... except for the Increased dmg when crouched. Increased stun while crouched. Increased stamina regen while crouched. Increased armor and spell resistance. Increased movement speed while crouched. Class specific skills that provide knockbacks, armor reductions, and stuns if stealthed.

Nestor

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Sap Essence/Power Extraction is one of the best AoEs (if not the best) in the game and as evidenced by all the trials times that involve 6+ NBs, sustain on DPS is not an issue.


...their DPS and its sustain are not an issue.

It's all in how you roll your character. I don't use Sap Essence as it did not help me when I tried it for a few hours. Believe me I tried everything before I gave up and started using a stick on my NB to take out the trash.

Comparing a group of 6 NB's to one NB is not a valid comparison. Any group will do well in this game no matter what skills your using. Single NB's have issues against trash mobs compared to other classes.

And the DPS sustain I was referring to was in comparison to the initial hit.

Maulkin

Nestor wrote: »

It's all in how you roll your character. I don't use Sap Essence as it did not help me when I tried it for a few hours. Believe me I tried everything before I gave up and started using a stick on my NB to take out the trash.

I think pretty much every other NB will disagree with you about Sap Essence, it's beyond awesome and you don't have to have a stick to use it. I'm not sure which "stick" skill helps you clear trash faster? Care to explain?

Nestor wrote: »

Comparing a group of 6 NB's to one NB is not a valid comparison. Any group will do well in this game no matter what skills your using. Single NB's have issues against trash mobs compared to other classes.

No, any group will not do well regardless of their skills, that's a gross exaggeration. Solo NBs struggle more than the other classes because of their lack of decent self-heals. Sorcs use crit builds, built around Crit Surge, and of course DKs and Temps have awesome heals. The NB finds it a lot harder to against groups of mobs because of their lack of shields and heals, not because of their lack of DPS

Nestor wrote: »

And the DPS sustain I was referring to was in comparison to the initial hit.

What does that mean? That the rest of the hits don't do as much dmg as the first stealthed one?

guybrushtb16_ESO

Stranglehands wrote: »

Someone argued in zone chat a while ago that the most important thing about nightblades is not sneaking, but using magicka and stamina about equally. Therefore, dunmer make good nightblades. That was his argument anyway, my dunmer isn't a nightblade, he's a dragonknight wizard and he sucks

Going by flavor text, this would be correct. Going by actual game mechanics, it's not. Ability damage scales with your total resource pool of either stam/mag, so one does not benefit from the other. Since you always want some health and you don't have enough to cap all three, you'll always want either magicka+health or stamina+health.

Nestor

Nestor wrote: »

And the DPS sustain I was referring to was in comparison to the initial hit.

What does that mean? That the rest of the hits don't do as much dmg as the first stealthed one? [/quote]

Maybe your not playing the same game I am playing....

Can't do 1800 to 2500 points of damage on each hit like I can on the first one from Stealth.

In any dungeon I have been in, or any PvE fight I have been it, it's always easier when there is more than one player doing it. It does not matter who is in the group. It takes the most basic of group mechanics to overcome any inherent weaknesses in a single character.

Is this different in PvP, maybe, but I don't care, I don't play in that zone. Maybe it's different in Trials, again, I don't play that area. Speed runs through a dungeon? Yawn. That might be fun for others, but for me, it's a waste of time.

And, no Sap Essence is not as effective at taking out the trash as a Stick with Impulse and Elemental Wall is. If it was, I would be using it. Maybe it's more helpful in group mechanic, but I have not seen other NB's using it in any of the groups or pugs I have been in.

kitsinni

DenverRalphy wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

I actually have to say that in a number of MMO's I have played, other classes could sneak.

However, in general they snuck POORLY, and only the stealth class could make really effective use of sneak, and generally they had some substantial passives or buffs on their sneak ability.

In this game, the only modifiers on how well you sneak are race and armor. Any Khajiit DK in medium armor can operate in sneak as well as my Nightblade.

And there are only 3 abilties in the entire Nightblade class that actually improve use of sneak (through damage and armor buffs, and a minor sneak speed boost that you have to choose over an offensive morph), and one ability that causes stealth, and that one ability (cloak) works less effectively than invisibility pots. There are ZERO abilities in the Nightblade line that actually reduce your detection radius, or overcome detection measures, or really do anything to make Nightblades sneakier than other classes.

Yes, ESO is a game where you can mix and match and do anything. But why the heck do I want to be a Nightblade tank? Why wouldn't I be a DK tank, a class that actually has skills and passives that improve tanking? Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

I think the OP's point is that sneak can be used equally effectively by almost every class, so it makes Nightblade into a superfluous class, because the few stealth advantages we have aren't worth the disadvantages we have in other areas.

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

What this guy said ^^^. Im not QQing...i just think its funny that the NB is a "Rogue" class that doesnt do anything better then a sneaking Sorc.

Well... except for the Increased dmg when crouched. Increased stun while crouched. Increased stamina regen while crouched. Increased armor and spell resistance. Increased movement speed while crouched. Class specific skills that provide knockbacks, armor reductions, and stuns if stealthed.

- Increased damage for one hit yes that is nice.
- The increased stun make little difference when you can break a 2 second stun just as quickly as a 4 second stun. Against a poor player that may help.
- Nightblade doesn't get a bonus to stamina regen when crouched, we do have increased stam regen in general which is nice to have
- There is one morph of one skill that provides a speed bonus and it is less than you get for being a vamp or wearing a set
- Armor/Spell resistance are also nice but it is 4 seconds total

I'm not trying to argue that stuff is useless but most of it is situational and a lot of classes just have the same stuff, often times much better without any need to stealth. There is plenty of CC that doesn't need stealth, plenty of ways to stun, lots of ways to get regen, anyone can get higher stealth speed than that one morph gives you, you can get more armor/spell resistance out of stealth in other classes while the person gets damage for attacking you.

Drazhar14

Well, if you think about it, anyone can get low to the ground and move slow. Hide behind rocks and tall grass, etc. I love the fact that everyone can sneak, and after all, this isn't any mmo, it's an Elder Scrolls mmo. Sneaking is a key gameplay mechanic in Elder Scrolls games.

Nightblades are the only ones able to sneak while in combat and are designed for burst damage from stealth. I am pretty sure they are still the defining rogues in this game.

Tamanous

zaria wrote: »

Tenofas wrote: »

No... sneaking is not like going in stealth, and this is possible only for nightblades.
Two different things.

This, normal sneak has two uses outside of bow sneak atack, one is to get past some enemies while questing, the eye icon is probably more important as it show if they will agro on you.

Second is PvP again here its more strategical, you can sneak to avoid getting spotted by enemy players, you can not get close enough for melee attacks.

Not sure where this confusion is coming from. ESO has sneak/stealth and invisibility. When you crouch and the timer is complete you are sneaking which provides stealth. The veiled strike tool tip says, "If stealthed or invisible ..." which means you gain the bonus affect from either state which is from stealth from sneak OR invisibility (which is provided normally for them by Shadow Cloak).

Shadow Cloak and it's morphs is invisibility ... not sneak ... not stealth. You can gain invisibility by potion too. NB in fact have no ability to make their sneak better. They gain additional benefits by being in sneak and leaving sneak.

A great deal of confusion can be avoided if people used the correct terminology and explain the correct mechanics.

NB is offered many benefits to maximize stealth use without actually improving how strong the actual stealth it. It is more than enough to differentiate the class from others. The class can still be built around not specializing in it. The class is fine once a few more tweaks and fixes come to it but it does not require greater stealth specialization. They are practically 1 shotting people already from stealth.

GreyPilgrim

DenverRalphy wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

I actually have to say that in a number of MMO's I have played, other classes could sneak.

However, in general they snuck POORLY, and only the stealth class could make really effective use of sneak, and generally they had some substantial passives or buffs on their sneak ability.

In this game, the only modifiers on how well you sneak are race and armor. Any Khajiit DK in medium armor can operate in sneak as well as my Nightblade.

And there are only 3 abilties in the entire Nightblade class that actually improve use of sneak (through damage and armor buffs, and a minor sneak speed boost that you have to choose over an offensive morph), and one ability that causes stealth, and that one ability (cloak) works less effectively than invisibility pots. There are ZERO abilities in the Nightblade line that actually reduce your detection radius, or overcome detection measures, or really do anything to make Nightblades sneakier than other classes.

Yes, ESO is a game where you can mix and match and do anything. But why the heck do I want to be a Nightblade tank? Why wouldn't I be a DK tank, a class that actually has skills and passives that improve tanking? Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

I think the OP's point is that sneak can be used equally effectively by almost every class, so it makes Nightblade into a superfluous class, because the few stealth advantages we have aren't worth the disadvantages we have in other areas.

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

What this guy said ^^^. Im not QQing...i just think its funny that the NB is a "Rogue" class that doesnt do anything better then a sneaking Sorc.

Well... except for the Increased dmg when crouched. Increased stun while crouched. Increased stamina regen while crouched. Increased armor and spell resistance. Increased movement speed while crouched. Class specific skills that provide knockbacks, armor reductions, and stuns if stealthed.

So the damage increase is %10 and lasts for one hit, because after that yer not crouched anymore. And if yer attacking from stealth, and from behind, most of the damage is coming from that, not from the nightblade skill.

The stun extension is double, but honestly, if my mark hasn't used CC break on the stun before 4 secs is up, they're dead anyway. Seriously, an 8 sec stun doesnt help much, because they're either going to break it, or going to be dead long before that.

The increase in resists last 4 secs, which is just about enough time for my mark to break CC, pop a heal, pop a def buff, and then start wailing on me.

The increase in movement speed is only 25% by itself, and that's on a morph where I have to sacrifice a major armor debuff on my opponent to have it. and yes, that ability that provides a stun and armor debuff from stealth (again, at the expense of the speed buff), dunno wth yer talking about with a knockback.

My point is that all this stuff looks much better on paper than it plays, especially for PvP. Stealth is slow, hard to get back into after you've broken it without burning gobs of magicka on a spell thats not much better than pots, and against any player from any other class who knows what they're doing, they will either break stun and insta-port away, or break stun and insta-heal and own you before you can get more burst.

It's clunky. Yes I sometimes get great single kills. But meanwhile a sorc is zipping all around burning everything in sight, and getting gobs of AP for it, while I'm d**king around trying to get behind one dude for a sneak attack.

My point is that having some stuff that makes your first hit awesome doesn't make an effective stealth class, when everyone else can do it too.

Nox_Aeterna

"ESO - the only MMO where everyone can be a Rogue class."

Not really , but it is indeed the reason i play this game.

If they started to make a TES game where not everyone could sneak , then there would be an issue.

Also , NBs when the thieves and DB guilds come out wont be the masters of stealth anymore , anyone probably will have the chance to spend points and get stuff on stealth to do.

GreyPilgrim

Tamanous wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Tenofas wrote: »

No... sneaking is not like going in stealth, and this is possible only for nightblades.
Two different things.

This, normal sneak has two uses outside of bow sneak atack, one is to get past some enemies while questing, the eye icon is probably more important as it show if they will agro on you.

Second is PvP again here its more strategical, you can sneak to avoid getting spotted by enemy players, you can not get close enough for melee attacks.

Not sure where this confusion is coming from. ESO has sneak/stealth and invisibility. When you crouch and the timer is complete you are sneaking which provides stealth. The veiled strike tool tip says, "If stealthed or invisible ..." which means you gain the bonus affect from either state which is from stealth from sneak OR invisibility (which is provided normally for them by Shadow Cloak).

Shadow Cloak and it's morphs is invisibility ... not sneak ... not stealth. You can gain invisibility by potion too. NB in fact have no ability to make their sneak better. They gain additional benefits by being in sneak and leaving sneak.

A great deal of confusion can be avoided if people used the correct terminology and explain the correct mechanics.

NB is offered many benefits to maximize stealth use without actually improving how strong the actual stealth it. It is more than enough to differentiate the class from others. The class can still be built around not specializing in it. The class is fine once a few more tweaks and fixes come to it but it does not require greater stealth specialization. They are practically 1 shotting people already from stealth.

I'm pretty sure though that the only diff between invisibility and sneak is that you can stand up and run while invisible. They are otherwise identical. So when you drop out of Cloak, for example, you do gain the resistance boost for coming out of stealth.

And other than s**t mobs, there ain't nobody I'm one-shotting from stealth, especially for PvP, which is my main concern here. I actually think NB works just fine for PVE content. But for PvP slow movement and single target DPS is just a waste of time. Can I rebuild to something else? sure, but then why did I pick a stealth class?

And if everybody can hide till I'm 10 feet from them, then how much of an advantage is stealth? that I can sometimes get off a great first hit, if I can get behind someone? It means my contribution to a team is that I annoyed a few people while my teammates ran around burning the crap out of everything in sight. And If I switch to a destro staff to do the same thing, then I have to ask myself, "Why am I not a sorc?"

GreyPilgrim

whiteshadow711jppreub18_ESO wrote: »

This one uses a three piece Nightshade set (Helmet and 2 daggers) in Cyrodiil when sneaking around and I get the drop on other enemy Khajiit's (who are in sneak) all the time since this set decreases my detection radius while I am in stealth even further than the others. The set also decreases my Stamina sneak cost by 22-24%.

That is awesome as I can sneak way further and longer than others with just Medium armor.

Link-http://elderscrollsonline.wiki.fextralife.com/Nightshade+Set

When I am ready to attack someone, I then switch to my other more powerful daggers and attack them from stealth.

And yes this set can be used by anyone but Khajiit Nightblades wearing full medium armor (7/7) really shine using this set.

Now if you use the 5 pc Nights Silence set (60% more sneak speed) and Concealed Weapon (25% sneak speed at Rank 4), then you move fast and have great stealth as well.

I rarely if ever get found while sneaking and if I do, I either kill my enemy fast or I use Shadow Cloak (which is going to be fixed in 1.4 hopefully) to get away and then back to Sneak and I switch back to the Nightshade set so my detection radius decreases even more.

This is what Nightblades should be able to do, sneak really well, attack fast and hard and kill the enemy quickly and then fade away into the shadows..

I think that when the Shadow Cloak ability is fixed (soon, 1.4 patch) and then the Magicka/Stamina imbalance is fixed (further down the line) that Nightblades will be a class to be reckoned with.

Yes, but my point here is that all of your boosts to be sneaky come from being a Khajiit and the armor and gear you are using. So this has nothing to do with being a NB. Having a stealth class where you have to use racials and gear to make it 'shine' is poor design.

And yes, there are things that decrease detection radius. But my point is that detection radius is already ridiculously short for EVERYBODY, I can stumble into whole groups of people stealthed ten feet away. And things like Mage light and detection pots seem to work equally on everybody, no matter the boosts on stealth.

And yes, I can pop Cloak to get away, if who I'm getting away from doesn't instantly drop an AoE and break the cloak. By contrast a sorc can simply pop-pop-pop their BE, THEN hit stealth, and be far enough away to pull it off better than I can.

Will the Shadow cloak help? Sure. But I don't think it's going to instantly turn NB into a force to be reckoned with in PvP. We will still be basically a nuisance, unless we tweak our loads to do things that aren't as stealth oriented, which then begs the question of 'why bother?'

GreyPilgrim

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Well, if you think about it, anyone can get low to the ground and move slow. Hide behind rocks and tall grass, etc. I love the fact that everyone can sneak, and after all, this isn't any mmo, it's an Elder Scrolls mmo. Sneaking is a key gameplay mechanic in Elder Scrolls games.

Nightblades are the only ones able to sneak while in combat and are designed for burst damage from stealth. I am pretty sure they are still the defining rogues in this game.

I don't know where you get the idea that we can sneak while in combat. I can sneak while going 'into' combat, but once I attack I'm out, and I have to burn a high magicka ability to get stealth back, or use a pot that, again, anyone can use.

So if you mean we can sneak in combat because we have an invisibility spell, then, no, we aren;t the only ones who can do this, the invisibility pot does virtually the same thing.

And in response to, 'this is Elder Scrolls'. Well, thats fine. But if they wanted everyone to be able to do everything in the game, they should have dispensed with classes altogether. There's no point in having distinct classes, and then not having them have distinct roles.

And if you build something with all kinds of mix and match abilities, you need to do the UPFRONT work of balancing all those things out, for all the different elements of your game. NB is weak at playing it's intended role in PvP. Can I compensate for that? sure, but if my role isn't distinct, then I'm left with the nagging feeling that I could have played something else to more effect.

Artis

Pseudonym wrote: »

I beg to differ. If I hit you with Piercing Mark you can't sneak at all; which is exclusive to Nightblades. You're right in saying everyone can sneak, just like everyone can tank, though we sneak better (increased speed, defense bonuses, increased damage from stealth attacks, longer stun duration from stealth attacks and general ability synergy while sneaking) and other classes tank better.

We do have more benefits while sneaking.

1. Being able to hit someone with Piercing Mark doesn't make me able to cneak better. If another NB hits me with it, I can't sneak. Just like everyone else.
2. Not everyone tanks equally good.
3. Defence,increased damage - only work ONCE, when you do your FIRST attack. Useless.
4. Increased speed works only if Concealed Strike is equipped. Moreover, I still think that it only affects your speed in Dark Cloak. I didn't see any difference while sneaking only. Besides, any class can become a vampire or get a set with sneaking movespeed bonus and sneak faster than NB.
5. Longer stun duration from invisibility works only if you have TWO slots out of five taken by Veiled Strike(or morphs) and Dark cloak. Otherwise, you can't use this effect during combat. However, in Stamina build you can't use this combo anyway.
6. Elaborate on general synergy. Other than that, other arguments of yours are not really valid. Every class can sneak as well. Silly bonus for first 4 seconds of fights(when you opened from sneaking and no one is attacking you anyway ahaha) is nothing comparable to actual advantage in actual fight.

The class needs to be revamped or deleted from the game (given the opportunity to assign another class to our characters).

Maulkin

Nestor wrote: »

Maybe your not playing the same game I am playing....

Can't do 1800 to 2500 points of damage on each hit like I can on the first one from Stealth.

In any dungeon I have been in, or any PvE fight I have been it, it's always easier when there is more than one player doing it. It does not matter who is in the group. It takes the most basic of group mechanics to overcome any inherent weaknesses in a single character.

Is this different in PvP, maybe, but I don't care, I don't play in that zone. Maybe it's different in Trials, again, I don't play that area. Speed runs through a dungeon? Yawn. That might be fun for others, but for me, it's a waste of time.

And, no Sap Essence is not as effective at taking out the trash as a Stick with Impulse and Elemental Wall is. If it was, I would be using it. Maybe it's more helpful in group mechanic, but I have not seen other NB's using it in any of the groups or pugs I have been in.

No PvP and no Trials? Then, of course I'm not playing the same game you're playing. I'm playing end-game content and you're not. From what do you draw your conclusions then, exactly?

If you were playing the game's end content, you'd see most NBs in a group running either sap essence or power extraction. If you're playing solo and you think Impulse is better than Power Extraction, than I'm lost I don't know what I can say to you.

And you need to to look up the term DPS sustain. Of course it wouldn't involve your initial stealthed strike. What? You wanted to be doing 2k with every strike? That would be sustaining DPS and making the game competitive for you?

The simple fact remains: NBs have their problems but their are centered around survivability, not DPS and its sustain. NBs currently have the highest single target DPS and the second highest AoE DPS after DKs, on a par with Sorcs.

They need their Cloak fixing and they need a shield for PvP. Another AoE spell is very low on the priorities

morvegil

LO, everyone says how we get this badass attack while crouched. Thats ONE *** attack. Half the time I ambush someone and it doesnt crit or barely dents then.

Thats great class design, you can only do awesome damage on one hit if you get the drop...otherwise you're gimped compared to the other 3 classes.

morvegil

Drazhar14 wrote: »

Well, if you think about it, anyone can get low to the ground and move slow. Hide behind rocks and tall grass, etc. I love the fact that everyone can sneak, and after all, this isn't any mmo, it's an Elder Scrolls mmo. Sneaking is a key gameplay mechanic in Elder Scrolls games.

Nightblades are the only ones able to sneak while in combat and are designed for burst damage from stealth. I am pretty sure they are still the defining rogues in this game.

Tell me how I can sneak in combat...because that for SURE isnt working.