ESO - the only MMO where everyone can be a Rogue class.

morvegil

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

Tenofas

No... sneaking is not like going in stealth, and this is possible only for nightblades.
Two different things.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

FFXI.

/thread

bosmern_ESO

As a DK, I never sneak. I want to be attacked lol.

DragonLane555

I'd also like to to add AoC, everyone can sneak there to.

I don't really see the issue.

AlnilamE

But any class can sneak in any TES game.

Aett_Thorn

And who exactly said that Nightblades need to sneak? My Nightblade Tank certainly doesn't need to, so it's not like sneaking is an inherent part of being a Nightblade.

Shunravi

What's wrong with playing how you want on your chosen class? Why exactly do you assume that nightblades are an exclusively rougelike class (or that they should be)? Because we have a cloak and stealth synergies? I do hope you realise that those are not the only skills at our disposal.

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

And who exactly said that Nightblades need to sneak? My Nightblade Tank certainly doesn't need to, so it's not like sneaking is an inherent part of being a Nightblade.

Thank you Aett_Thorn

BBSooner

Aett_Thorn wrote: »

And who exactly said that Nightblades need to sneak? My Nightblade Tank certainly doesn't need to, so it's not like sneaking is an inherent part of being a Nightblade.

Mine as well.

raglau

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

I think someone is perhaps misunderstanding one of the key principles of Elder Scrolls games.

AngryNord

Pibbles wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

I think someone is perhaps misunderstanding one of the key principles of Elder Scrolls games.

Which is what? That for example in both Morrowind and Oblivion, your ability to sneak was severly reduced from wearing heavy armour?

eliisra

Only NB have class passives with dmg/crit modifiers from sneak. So they're still a superior class choice, if you want to play a rouge type character.

Crouch and invis, are slightly different things any way. You can be invisible with potion or NB skill, but you're not in actual stealth.

raglau

AngryNord wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

I think someone is perhaps misunderstanding one of the key principles of Elder Scrolls games.

Which is what? That for example in both Morrowind and Oblivion, your ability to sneak was severly reduced from wearing heavy armour?

As I say, a principle. The principle remains even if the implementation differs.

dennis.schmelzleb16_ESO

One of the best features ESO has.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Pibbles wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

I think someone is perhaps misunderstanding one of the key principles of Elder Scrolls games.

Which other ES games are MMOs?

ESO is a TES game in all but name in many areas, trying to justify feature 'X' because it's 'a TES game' really doesn't get you very far.

GnatB

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

You haven't played UO, have you? Skill based system, any character can do anything.

ESO is somewhat skill based... and I'd point out, medium armor passives makes sneaking in heavy inferior.


ESO doesn't really have classes. It has spell schools. You can make a "roguelike" class with a character specialized in pretty much any of the spell schools.

jaebdub

Concealed Weapon? Only morph that increases sneak speed. Go vamp to really feel the difference.

Azarul

Then nightblades shouldn't be able to use staffs, or sword and shield etc etc. IS that what we want?

Zorrashi

And everyone can wield a staff or a bow or a two-handed sword...in fact, apart from racials and class lines, few things are barred from the player. One of the selling points was "play how you want", and I, for one, would be angry if sneaking was limited to only NBs. Just like I would be angry if only dragon knights could wield sword and shield.

Yes it is a different concept from most MMOs out there that typically restrict you to your class and the pre-laid skills associated with it, but that is part of the beauty that is ESO. Apart from certain imbalances, no singular class is "redundant".

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

Dear OP,

L2ParadigmShift.

Tamanous

Tenofas wrote: »

No... sneaking is not like going in stealth, and this is possible only for nightblades.
Two different things.

Sneaking is stealth. NBs have an invisibility skill.

I should stress that sneaking sucks unless you use medium armor and possibly other attempts to improve it. NBs get no inherent bonus to stealth, just bonus damage from stealth and some other bonuses. Other classes can be equally good using stealth depending on build and it is hard to quantify which is better from stealth because other classes have their own strengths as well.

Nestor

How does sneaking make a character a Rogue and only a Rogue?

raglau

The point is that the devs have tried to keep the principles behind TES intact for the MMO. Some may say they have not always succeeded, some may not think it was even a good idea, but that's how they have approached it.

So in the same way that I as a person can sneak, but not as well as someone who has spent a lot of training time doing it, then your char in ESO and TES can do it. Modified in part by factors such as armour in some games, as another poster said.

But crucially, they have remained true to the TES principle that all chars can learn (nearly) all abilities.

I think this is pivotal to their vision for the game and it more comes down to players breaking out of the current MMO paradigm into more of the TES one. Some people perhaps won't like to do that, but I believe that's what is intended.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Pibbles wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

I think someone is perhaps misunderstanding one of the key principles of Elder Scrolls games.

Which other ES games are MMOs?

ESO is a TES game in all but name in many areas, trying to justify feature 'X' because it's 'a TES game' really doesn't get you very far.

Stranglehands

Someone argued in zone chat a while ago that the most important thing about nightblades is not sneaking, but using magicka and stamina about equally. Therefore, dunmer make good nightblades. That was his argument anyway, my dunmer isn't a nightblade, he's a dragonknight wizard and he sucks

kitsinni

What they need to do is give NB some synergies with sneaking that are actually worthwhile in PvP and work reliably. Extra crit, extra crit damage .. yay we will never crit in PvP anyway. Extra damage from one attack is ok I guess and would be great if the cloak skill worked reliably enough to ever get back in to sneak using. Maybe extra sneak speed that doesn't require using a single skill and taking a worse morph for it. Maybe make it so they can do sneak damage without being behind the opponent. They are already lacking in a lot of the defense, self healing and escape categories.

Pseudonym

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

You're complaining about choice? You can also be a tank, does that make Dragonknights redundant? You can choose to heal, does that make Templars redundant? How about the ability to cast spells and pool from Magicka; I guess that would make Sorcerers redundant too?

The beauty of this game is that classes don't pigeon hole you into being just one thing. That being said, if you truly want to sneak around and be all rogue like, the Nightblade does have some unique abilities which enhance that experience.

Edit; typo mania.

GreyPilgrim

I actually have to say that in a number of MMO's I have played, other classes could sneak.

However, in general they snuck POORLY, and only the stealth class could make really effective use of sneak, and generally they had some substantial passives or buffs on their sneak ability.

In this game, the only modifiers on how well you sneak are race and armor. Any Khajiit DK in medium armor can operate in sneak as well as my Nightblade.

And there are only 3 abilties in the entire Nightblade class that actually improve use of sneak (through damage and armor buffs, and a minor sneak speed boost that you have to choose over an offensive morph), and one ability that causes stealth, and that one ability (cloak) works less effectively than invisibility pots. There are ZERO abilities in the Nightblade line that actually reduce your detection radius, or overcome detection measures, or really do anything to make Nightblades sneakier than other classes.

Yes, ESO is a game where you can mix and match and do anything. But why the heck do I want to be a Nightblade tank? Why wouldn't I be a DK tank, a class that actually has skills and passives that improve tanking? Why have a class that is by implication a stealth build class, and then use it to run around in heavy armor spamming impulse with a destro staff?

I think the OP's point is that sneak can be used equally effectively by almost every class, so it makes Nightblade into a superfluous class, because the few stealth advantages we have aren't worth the disadvantages we have in other areas.

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

Pseudonym

GreyPilgrim wrote: »

Frankly, if you want to be a stealth attacker in this game, yer better off being a sorc, who can zap and zip away to re-stealth before your victims can even react. So I guess I feel like maybe thats a problem, to have a stealth class thats actually inferior for stealth ganking to the mage class.

Until I tag you with Piercing Mark from 50 meters away and you're now unable to stealth.

Nightblades have a ton of stealth utility, huge surprise damage and massive single target damage. I'm not saying they're fine, but they're the best at what they do.

Artis

Pseudonym wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

You're complaining about choice? You can also be a tank, does that make Dragonknights redundant? You can choose to heal, does that make Templars redundant? How about the ability to cast spells and pool from Magicka; I guess that would make Sorcerers redundant too?

The beauty of this game is that classes don't pigeon hole you into being just one thing. That being said, if you truly want to sneak around and be all rogue like, the Nightblade does have some unique abilities which enhance that experience.

Edit; typo mania.

You will never be as good tank as a DK or as good healer as a templar. At least in PvP. That's why it wouldn't make them redundant. That's why NBs are redundant. They are not the best in sneaking. Everyone can sneak as well.

Shizashane

Class Freedom! Why have a set path that will get boring and repetitive!? ESO lets you do what you want with your class. Be a Heavy armored resto NB, who is good at making Maggot stew, Its all up to you!

Pseudonym

Artemis wrote: »

Pseudonym wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

I never played any other MMO where the other classes could sneak. Seems messed up and sort of makes the NB classes redundant.

You're complaining about choice? You can also be a tank, does that make Dragonknights redundant? You can choose to heal, does that make Templars redundant? How about the ability to cast spells and pool from Magicka; I guess that would make Sorcerers redundant too?

The beauty of this game is that classes don't pigeon hole you into being just one thing. That being said, if you truly want to sneak around and be all rogue like, the Nightblade does have some unique abilities which enhance that experience.

Edit; typo mania.

You will never be as good tank as a DK or as good healer as a templar. At least in PvP. That's why it wouldn't make them redundant. That's why NBs are redundant. They are not the best in sneaking. Everyone can sneak as well.

I beg to differ. If I hit you with Piercing Mark you can't sneak at all; which is exclusive to Nightblades. You're right in saying everyone can sneak, just like everyone can tank, though we sneak better (increased speed, defense bonuses, increased damage from stealth attacks, longer stun duration from stealth attacks and general ability synergy while sneaking) and other classes tank better.

We do have more benefits while sneaking.