Since PvP is Basically Vampires (and Maybe Werewolves too Soon)...

Ragefist

Samadhi wrote: »

Great idea, we could call it the Fighter's Guild.

Dude you beat me to it

WraithAzraiel

They're more powerful because they've learned how to play and mitigated the cons.

Being a Dark Elf and wearing 1 piece of fire resist jewelry is enough to negate the environmental fire damage from dungeons and NPC enemies.

When facing actual players, the danger is exponentially greater. The con's weren't as extensive as the pro's in my description, yes - because they didn't need to be.

The point I'm trying to make is that Vampires are perceived as OP because of the classes that are playing them allow for the cons to be washed away and then some.

If there were balances to the classes then it'd be a playstyle.

Seeing as there IS NOT any SEMBLANCE of balance. The OP shines brighter with the addition of Vampire.

Are you seeing my point now? Instead of trying to poke holes in my argument are you seeing the underlying reasoning behind the post?

Braddass

Not really ... if Vamp Sorc > Human Sorc .. Vamp DK > Human DK ... etc., then being a Vamp is not just flavor, it is an inherent advantage. (I am not denying there is substantial imbalance between the classes, but that really begs the question).

The only way that it would just be flavor, is if Vamp Sorc = Human Sorc, Vamp DK = Human DK, etc. That is not close to the situation right now.

If that ever happens, there will a lot less Vamps running around. People play Vamp for the same reason they use cheat codes ... it makes the game easier.

WraithAzraiel

They're more powerful because they have a health drain they wouldn't normally have, they have an extra 10% magicka regen they wouldn't normally have.

So for the min-maxers, sure it's a smart move, but they have to change their whole style of play to tiptoe around the fire everywhere and the hit to their health regen.

Those, like every other con in the game (short of bugs and other sh!t that's not working as intended), can be circumnavigated.

There's always a way around something.

The only way they could nerf Vampire down to WW level is if they did away with the damage mitigation and magicka/stamina regen passives. Which would make the cons outweigh the pros, instead of being as balanced as it possibly can be at this point in time. Which brings me BACK to my point. The game is in severe need of balancing and rebalancing, not nerfing.

So how about instead of nerfing vampire, they give a bonus to those to choose to stay human? IE: A Dawnguard skill line or an expansion on the Fighters Guild.

And while they're at it, they can buff WW because in it's current state it's useless.

Nerf is not the answer. They nerfed it a month after launch and it did next to nothing. Because the problem ISN'T with Vampire.

Are you picking up what I'm putting down? You smelling what I'm stepping in? Do you understand the words comin' outta my....fingers?

The prevalence of vampire is due to the unbalance of classes, IE a Sorc or DK would get FAR more out of being a Vampire than a NightBlade or Templar. Because as it stands, NightBlade and Templar are in still weaker than even vanilla DK and Sorc.

Capiche?

Braddass

The prevalence of Vampires is due to the imbalance between Vampire and Human (not the imbalance between the classes). Every class is more powerful when you add the Vampire stuff. (I do not disagree that Sorc Vamp and DK Vamps are more powerful that NB Vamps ... but that is because Sorcs and DKs are more powerful than NBs.)

Simply put, being a Vamp makes you more powerful (no matter what class you are) ... and that is not balanced. A Vamp Sorc is more powerful than a Human Sorc. A Vamp DK is more powerful than a Human DK. A Vamp NB is more powerful than a Human NB, and a Vamp Temp is more powerful than a Human Temp.

They can either nerf Vampire ... or spend developer time and 6+ months creating the Dawnguard line. Which will achieve balance sooner?

WraithAzraiel

Eh, fair enough, I can't dispute those facts but I'm so tired of seeing nerf this nerf that. Instead of nerfing something, it's counterpart should be buffed. Not necessarily with a whole new skill line but tweaks to current ones.

Braddass

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Eh, fair enough, I can't dispute those facts but I'm so tired of seeing nerf this nerf that. Instead of nerfing something, it's counterpart should be buffed. Not necessarily with a whole new skill line but tweaks to current ones.

I would be fine with that, as long it they balance each other out. For there to be balance, however, it would have to be things that were not available to Vamps (so I am not sure how they could use tweaks to current abilities to make it work).

WraithAzraiel

Hopefully they figure it out.

timidobserver

I could definitely go for just a whole organization dedicated to hunting vampires and werewolves and leaving the fighter's guild to the Daedra. Not only would this be a mechanic for evening PVP out, but I can think of some pretty interesting PVE stories that could be attached to it.

Bouvin

Mitigate the damage Swarm of Bats does to other players.

PVP problem solved.

PVE skill not ruined.

Talrenos

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

... how about a "van Helsing" skill line that just specializes in killing vampires and werewolves as a means of balancing out PvP?

Nah, werewolves will still be an easy, laughable kill, even after the 'buffs' they are putting on them. There are no buffs that make them less squishy, just ones that help them dish out more damage, and one sloppy self heal. All you have to do is poison them and/or wait till their timer runs out and you get a free 3 second stun on them as they change back into a human again. Kill away...

GnatB

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

GnatB wrote: »

Honestly? Vamps are too powerful. The fact that they are so pervasive makes that obvious. There should be more downsides than upsides for all but a few very niche builds. It's absurd that you see so many people running around asking to be bit, they should be running around asking to be cured.

So, yeah. I'd say make silver bolts 100% vs PC vamps. Prevent PC vamps from using fighters guild skills (and advancing in the FG questline.) Oh, and come on, please do something to severely handicap them when outside in daylight. whether it's 10% damage/minute with 0 natural regen, or -10% max health every minute up to -80%, or something.

See my above statement. There is absolutely NO reason to give Vampires this much of a penalty. None whatsoever. Vampire and Werewolf are at best, flavors to be added to your character at your discretion, to allow for a different style of play.

It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is the driving factor for players being considered OP.

Sure there's a reason. Vampirism should be a negative. It shouldn't be OP. It shouldn't be P. It should be *under* powered. Except for very niche builds. As you yourself said, currently pretty much every build is better with vamp. That makes it OP, in most circumstances. I'd have to argue it should be UP, in most circumstances. ES vampires have always had *severe* disadvantages. Barring mods, the advantages have never come close to making up for the disadvantages. It's always been some minor boosts, and some weak free spells that are basically replicable w/o vampirism, vs. massive damage in daylight and most NPC's trying to kill you or at least not deal with you.

pppontus

I can't agree with this, personally I think that there is a well thought out reasons that Vampires are very powerful - this is probably intentional (superhuman strenghts etc.) but there is also ALREADY an entire skill line dedicated to fighting them.

Seriously, open up the Fighters Guild skill line pick Silver Bolts, Expert Hunter, Circle of Protection - go level them up, morph to Silver Shards, Evil Hunter, Turn Undead. Pick the Slayer passive (9% increase in spell and weapon power against ALL vamps), outfit your weapon of choice with a fire enchant (or maybe disease, if you want to fight Vamp DKs). ENJOY it every time you spot a vampire.

There are a few problems right now that make fighting vamps harder, such as animations not showing up (and the zerg trains, but in those cases it really doesn't matter if they steamroll you with batswarm or elemental ring, you're gonna die no matter what), but these are bugs and imbalances that will be fixed by tweaks. Hopefully with 1.4 we will see the swarm before it's too late, although honestly I rarely take more than 1 or 2 ticks of damage from it outside of zergtrains, seeing it just means escape and play defense for 6 seconds.

Honestly though, the biggest reason there is a Vamp majority in Cyrodiil is that the Fighters Guild skills aren't utilized enough. They are there as a counter, 1 of my 5 chars is a vamp (only use Dark Stalker), and if people started using evil/camo hunter to completely trash me I would probably look for the cure quickly. In my opinion it's fairly balanced, I usually don't want vamp on my characters unless I need Dark Stalker for the build.

WraithAzraiel

GnatB wrote: »

[
Sure there's a reason. Vampirism should be a negative. It shouldn't be OP. It shouldn't be P. It should be *under* powered. Except for very niche builds. As you yourself said, currently pretty much every build is better with vamp. That makes it OP, in most circumstances. I'd have to argue it should be UP, in most circumstances. ES vampires have always had *severe* disadvantages. Barring mods, the advantages have never come close to making up for the disadvantages. It's always been some minor boosts, and some weak free spells that are basically replicable w/o vampirism, vs. massive damage in daylight and most NPC's trying to kill you or at least not deal with you.

It's a boon to every class, yes what with it's 10% extra to Stamina/Magicka Regen at the imbalanced sacrifice of a ridiculous amount of Health Regen - it's SO OP, why aren't you a vampire yet, nub?

It's only after you learn how to play, does it become fun. Once you become more aware of the constant fire damage around you at all times, slot armor and weapons with enchants and set bonuses to mitigate your weaknesses (AS EVERY PLAYER WITH A BRAIN WOULD, VAMPIRE OR NOT).

Also, my aforementioned statement (every build is better with vamp) is only true because of the horrid balancing inherent in those classes.

If I had a nickel for every Sorc Vampire I watched, Streak into a zerg or crowd of enemies, pop Lightning Form, Streak once or twice more then pop Devouring Swarm. AND NOT HAVE HIS HEALTH DROP AT ALL. Then rinse and repeat, I'd never need to work again. Granted this happens less now but before update 3? Holy hell....especially if they were Emperor.

So you tell me, if they had access to any other Ultimate out there with a health drain attached to it, would you cry for that skill line to be nerfed? Or would you finally realize that the base problem is how fast these knuckleheads are building the Ultimate, not the skill line itself.

Sure, after all that. Vampire's are more powerful than humanoids.....why shouldn't they be? They're frickin vampires!

When's the last time you heard of a vampire in any medium (novel, movie, spoken word) being taken down by a drooling tween with their face buried in Facespace or Instagroan too much to know how to respond to real people. I blame WoW and bad parenting.

I'm all for the implementation of a skill line to combat supernaturals but the downright nerfing of SUPERnatural skill lines, is just stupid.

Then they'd just be less-than-natural. Inferior-to-natural.

And don't try to throw past ES game in my face "They were weak and useless in previous TES titles" That's because those ES games sucked at representing vampires.

They didn't get it right until Dawnguard. Before Skyrim, the only worthwhile supernatual to be was Werewolf. This is the first and only TES title where werewolf (say that 10 times fast) is laughable.

WraithAzraiel

pppontus wrote: »

I can't agree with this, personally I think that there is a well thought out reasons that Vampires are very powerful - this is probably intentional (superhuman strenghts etc.) but there is also ALREADY an entire skill line dedicated to fighting them.

Seriously, open up the Fighters Guild skill line pick Silver Bolts, Expert Hunter, Circle of Protection - go level them up, morph to Silver Shards, Evil Hunter, Turn Undead. Pick the Slayer passive (9% increase in spell and weapon power against ALL vamps), outfit your weapon of choice with a fire enchant (or maybe disease, if you want to fight Vamp DKs). ENJOY it every time you spot a vampire.

There are a few problems right now that make fighting vamps harder, such as animations not showing up (and the zerg trains, but in those cases it really doesn't matter if they steamroll you with batswarm or elemental ring, you're gonna die no matter what), but these are bugs and imbalances that will be fixed by tweaks. Hopefully with 1.4 we will see the swarm before it's too late, although honestly I rarely take more than 1 or 2 ticks of damage from it outside of zergtrains, seeing it just means escape and play defense for 6 seconds.

Honestly though, the biggest reason there is a Vamp majority in Cyrodiil is that the Fighters Guild skills aren't utilized enough. They are there as a counter, 1 of my 5 chars is a vamp (only use Dark Stalker), and if people started using evil/camo hunter to completely trash me I would probably look for the cure quickly. In my opinion it's fairly balanced, I usually don't want vamp on my characters unless I need Dark Stalker for the build.

Damn, do all the "nerf Vampire" crybabies need some burn cream? Called out by someone who isn't a diehard Vampire fan.

It's a cold world.

Mondo

Allright Buffy!

WraithAzraiel

Mondo wrote: »

Allright Buffy!

Does that make you Willow or Giles?

Mondo

Im this black haired nerd guy. I am useless but gonna do it to that hot rredhaired girl

dodgehopper_ESO

1) Silver Bolts: Laughable damage, high stamina cost, 5% chance to Proc a big burst of damage to daedric foes.

2) Circle of Protection: yeah, its smart to stand still for long periods of time in pvp... Maybe sometimes, but I don't think this is as good for dealing with a Bat Swarm as is being stated. I'm pretty sure I've never seen a vampire run away in fear from one. The damage over time is laughably low for the Turn Undead as well.

3) Expert Hunter: 20% chance on hit to a little slice of damage more. Again do I need to say it again? 1/5 chance to proc a little nudge of damage more?

4) Trap Beast: Too Niche. Mines and FG passive probably better.

5) Flawless Dawnbreaker: This one is awesome, mostly for the passive bonus to damage output. Its not that great in actual damage.

Passives:

Slayer: Weapon and spell power 9% more vs. daedra/undead
Banish the Wicked: Gain some ultimate when killing undead
Skilled Tracker: Also Hurt WW. (nice but not necessary as of now).

The problem with Fighters Guild is not that it exists, but that it is a hodgepodge of low damage high stamina cost skills, or skills that are so random in their spiky result that they make vampires feel that they were killed unfairly (due to that oddball randomness), and they make Fighters Guild players annoyed because its a crap shoot whether their powers will work or not. Silver Bolts should be a decent skill in its own right. Alternately, the Fighters Guild abilities should perhaps innately ignore a certain amount of armor/spell resistance of the vampire. The Numbers should be fair, and balance out the positives.

As an aside, there are appreciable downsides to being a vampire. The Health Regeneration reduction is actually noticeable. Its mitigatable with other abilities that self heal (Bat Swarm and Drain included) and it means certain races like Orc and Nord may as well throw out one of their racial passives. I'd consider that a serious downside.

I think the big problem with Fighters Guild is that its simply an unreliable skill line for the things that actually do hurt. The abilities from it that do hurt simply cost too many resources and do too little. Archery seems made to kill Werewolves, at least in this game, and I would say it does so better than Fighters Guild. Finally, there is a certain degree of irony in disease enchantments being a good anti vampire choice, since historically vampires have been immune to disease in TES games. Then again, Redgards were once resistant to poison too.

One more thing. Silver Leash would be a lot more interesting if the leash function worked on everything, not just daedra and undead. You're harpooning and tugging the enemy over like Scorpion from Mortal Kombat with that weapon. Whether they are undead or not is irrelevant, and it always bothered me about that morph. The added damage should simply a bonus to what the Leash actually does.

Gorthax

If you push for it, I'll be behind you.

yea.....just gonna leave this here :P

Gorthax

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

If you push for it, I'll be behind you.

Baphomet

There's an easy fix for the imbalance part.

Reduce batswarm to 8m like all other AoE ults and make it so that the bat swarmer can't use other abilities while swarming.

Easy fix, quick to implement, balanced.

morvegil

Im a vampire...after this next patch i might go back to HUman...since they nerfed stealth speed stacking.

Danisheraser

All the damn whine about who is better than who. All classes are meant to do more or less everything. Of course some have their advantages, but reading how people whine about sorcs crit more than nb, is like seeing a little baby that got it's candy stolen.

Vampires are overused in PvP, and at the moment there is not enough drawback/counters to them. Not even from the fighters guild.

MornaBaine

GnatB wrote: »

So, yeah. I'd say make silver bolts 100% vs PC vamps. Prevent PC vamps from using fighters guild skills (and advancing in the FG questline.) Oh, and come on, please do something to severely handicap them when outside in daylight. whether it's 10% damage/minute with 0 natural regen, or -10% max health every minute up to -80%, or something.

I'll agree with this when daytime and nighttime are of equal length in the game. Currently a game day is 6 hours long. Reference: https://help.elderscrollsonline.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1847/~/does-eso-have-a-day/night-cycle?
However, 4 hours of that day are daylight and only 2 are night/darkness. I've always been baffled by this choice and as a vampire it is definitely a downside mechanics-wise. Vampires ARE stronger at night I'm told and it DOES seem that way in PvE as I notice my vamp seems to have an easier time of things in darkness as opposed to daylight. So, make the day night cycle even, which makes more sense, and I'll consider additional nerfs to vampires during daylight.

Aoife32001

I was thinking another exclusive skill line akin to vampire or werewolf for those of us who don't want to be a vampire or werewolf.

I agree. There should be a skill line unique to those who do not pursue either vampirism or lycanthropy (or they should be excluded from the Fighter's Guild).

Or, alternatively, all players could start out with some basic passives that are then lost when one becomes either a vampire or a werewolf.

Vampires are actually more the issue as it is a constant state. I would be fine even if just vampires lost these "living" passives, as, it seems from most lore, vampires are undead.

Anyway, something needs to be done to increase the negatives of being a vampire. Sure, vampires are strong in ES lore, but they were also few and far between. You can't swing a dead cat in ESO without hitting one...

pppontus

With the changes coming with Update 4 (fighters guild skills scaling from stamina/wp dmg) my Sorc Vamp Hunter will be even more fun to play. Just sayin'.

indigoblades

morvegil wrote: »

Im a vampire...after this next patch i might go back to HUman...since they nerfed stealth speed stacking.

FAULTY LOGIC : I See lots of vamps so it must be OP.

Me too i am tired of nerfing my self, the only vamp skill on my bar is the ultimate and i have found silence is way more effective than bat swarm .... sneaking fast is fun but i am tired of arguing with people whom think vamps are godlike ... the only vamp skill that help me are increased magikca regin (but i have so much magicka a few percent wont matter) and sneak speed.

I want my skill points back and i am tired of looking ugly. To be honest i am tired of eso and just gonna craft for a month ... this games is getting boring.

Aoife32001

indigoblades wrote: »

morvegil wrote: »

Im a vampire...after this next patch i might go back to HUman...since they nerfed stealth speed stacking.

FAULTY LOGIC : I See lots of vamps so it must be OP.

Me too i am tired of nerfing my self, the only vamp skill on my bar is the ultimate and i have found silence is way more effective that bat swarm .... sneaking fast is fun but i am tired of arguing with people ... the only vamp skill that help me are increased magikca regin (but i have so much its doesnt matter) and sneak speed.

I want my skill points back and i am tired of looking ugly. To be honest i am tired of eso and just gonna craft for a month ... this games is getting boring.

I wouldn't say so many vampires equates with them being OP, but rather that the cost-benefit weight is clearly not working as intended. It obviously isn't working as intended either for werewolves. That doesn't mean nerfing or buffing either necessarily, but it does call for a reexamination of the balancing, I'd say.

Iceesar2014

Hello! I dont think that vampires are OP, they have theyr own problems, always to feed and fire. If to think about vampire skills (like bat swarm morphs) then theres as well other OP skills that are not vampire skills . If someone feels he gets beaten in PvP every single time, then you should check your playstyle first: skills you use and more. I have met many players and talked about skills, then theres have been always something to change in theyr skills to increase dmg, spell penetration and so on.