Since PvP is Basically Vampires (and Maybe Werewolves too Soon)...

OrangeTheCat

... how about a "van Helsing" skill line that just specializes in killing vampires and werewolves as a means of balancing out PvP?

Samadhi

Great idea, we could call it the Fighter's Guild.

OrangeTheCat

Samadhi wrote: »

Great idea, we could call it the Fighter's Guild.

Except the Fighter's Guild doesn't go nearly far enough and isn't what I am talking about. But you already knew that and couldn't resist a snarky comment, could you?

Fighter's Guild is mostly about daedra and anyone can be a member and a vampire or werewolf. I was thinking another exclusive skill line akin to vampire or werewolf for those of us who don't want to be a vampire or werewolf.

UrQuan

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

Great idea, we could call it the Fighter's Guild.

Except the Fighter's Guild doesn't go nearly far enough and isn't what I am talking about. But you already knew that and couldn't resist a snarky comment, could you?

Interesting, because the entire skill line is based around hunting and killing undead (like vampires), daedra, and (if you take the passive) werewolves. Virtually every skill point that you spend on anything in the Fighters Guild skill line will make you more deadly to vampires.

WraithAzraiel

Fighter's Guild skill line actually has MORE active abilities than Vampire or Werewolf, so in a way you should already be dominating the undead and bitten mongrels in Cyrodiil.



UNLESS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VAMPIRE ITSELF??!?!?!?!?

LE GASP

Let me correct your title for you
*clears throat*

"SInce PvP is Basically Sorcerer/DragonKnight Vampires (and probably never will be Werewolves until it's brought up to par and stops suffering from the inferiority of Stamina builds)...."


Fighter's Guild skills hurt in Cyrodiil, as a nonOP class Vampire, they hurt a lot.

But when you can generate ultimate as easily as you can walk (or Streak through crowds of enemies) and you're wearing light armor and carrying a sword and shield, to block while you rain death from every angle and Streak away once you feel you're in danger then proceed to teleport yourself into the middle of the crowd and pop Devouring Swarm to replenish your health - Why bother doing anything else?

It's clearly the fault of the Vampire skill line, isn't it?

WraithAzraiel

Though I will say, a Dawnguard-esque skill AND quest line would be pretty bad@ss but how they would justify having that AND the Fighter's Guild, I couldn't being to tell you.

Nice to think about though.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

batswarm is ridiculous, let's all be honest here.

Streak and the other morph are like 10xs as ridiculous though.

Also the fact that sorcs can get better crits than nbs, the class built for crits.

Tankqull

get camouflaged hunter and be impressed when facing vamps/werewolfes^...

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

get camouflaged hunter and be impressed when facing vamps/werewolfes^...

yea that gets me every time. Constantly getting hit with that.

Spottswoode

Fighter's guild line offers more than enough vampire/werewolf smiting skills. Some gear for smiting either other than the Prismatic weapon would be a nice start. So, more gear for fighting the beasties would be much more appreciated than skills. From me, anyway. (Like, for instance, a whip. Please?)

tankqullb16_ESO wrote: »

get camouflaged hunter and be impressed when facing vamps/werewolfes^...

I prefer evil hunter. More amusing when I can immediately follow up with a paralyzing crossbow shot. And followed by more evil hunting.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Fighter's guild line is more than enough.

Vunter

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

Fighter's Guild skill line actually has MORE active abilities than Vampire or Werewolf, so in a way you should already be dominating the undead and bitten mongrels in Cyrodiil.



UNLESS IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH VAMPIRE ITSELF??!?!?!?!?

LE GASP

Let me correct your title for you
*clears throat*

"SInce PvP is Basically Sorcerer/DragonKnight Vampires (and probably never will be Werewolves until it's brought up to par and stops suffering from the inferiority of Stamina builds)...."


Fighter's Guild skills hurt in Cyrodiil, as a nonOP class Vampire, they hurt a lot.

But when you can generate ultimate as easily as you can walk (or Streak through crowds of enemies) and you're wearing light armor and carrying a sword and shield, to block while you rain death from every angle and Streak away once you feel you're in danger then proceed to teleport yourself into the middle of the crowd and pop Devouring Swarm to replenish your health - Why bother doing anything else?

It's clearly the fault of the Vampire skill line, isn't it?

Shhh, don't tell anyone that blocking with sword and shield makes you invincible .. And you can cast instant cast abilities while doing that.

But.. Even if you are right, you shouldn't use such aggressive tone, just sayin'.

WraithAzraiel

Oh that wasn't aggressive, that was exasperated. The culmination of me having to repeat myself in every. single. freaking. "VAMPYRES R 2 OP NERF DEM NAO!!!" thread.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

As a vampire... they are op. Mostly batswarm.

WraithAzraiel

No, they're really not. They're only OP when combined with the ultimate cost reduction and ult generation inherent in classes like Sorc and DK. And when used in tandem with light armor and sword+board and especially when used as an Emperor.

That's all people see before they start to whine and moan. "THIS EMP IS FARMING AP WITH HIS BAT SWAOM WAAAAAAA VAMP OP"

No no no, Little Billy. Emp allows for +100% Ultimate generation.

So in a nutshell. Vampire is only the tool, OP and broken builds use to be indestructible

tengri

What should happen is that if you are vampire/wolf you are booted from the fighters guild.
I realize there might be some problems because of the big PvE story arc the guild has but still.
No vamps/wolves in the guild (and no access to the guild's skill line for them)!

Merlin13KAGL

tengri wrote: »

What should happen is that if you are vampire/wolf you are booted from the fighters guild.
I realize there might be some problems because of the big PvE story arc the guild has but still.
No vamps/wolves in the guild (and no access to the guild's skill line for them)!

Right, why would you want powerful characters as monster hunters?

You're okay with getting kicked out/executed should you catch the 'gift' while fighting, right?

We'll take the Dark Brotherhood if you don't want us. More suited for it anwyay.

You should also get beat down in public when you break out your two handed in the town square, but that doesn't happen either, does it?

OrangeTheCat

tengri wrote: »

What should happen is that if you are vampire/wolf you are booted from the fighters guild.
I realize there might be some problems because of the big PvE story arc the guild has but still.
No vamps/wolves in the guild (and no access to the guild's skill line for them)!

Ah, thank you. You are the only one (so far) who bothered to think about the gist of the post before making a defensive, knee-jerk reaction. New ideas are always first met with derision.

WraithAzraiel

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

tengri wrote: »

What should happen is that if you are vampire/wolf you are booted from the fighters guild.
I realize there might be some problems because of the big PvE story arc the guild has but still.
No vamps/wolves in the guild (and no access to the guild's skill line for them)!

Ah, thank you. You are the only one (so far) who bothered to think about the gist of the post before making a defensive, knee-jerk reaction. New ideas are always first met with derision.

Defensive? Sure Knee-jerk? I guess so, I mean after repeating my same response in every single "Vamp R Broke =Stoopid players, get rid of Vamp or I quit ESO 4ever" thread - it has become second nature. I'm actually considering saving my response as templates tailored to the different variety of whining threads about Vampires.

It's not a new idea, no idea anyone can ever come up with is a "new idea" everything you've posted and thought of, has been posted and thought of before.

However, I wouldn't mind being barred from using Fighter's Guild abilities upon embracing Vampirism or Lycanthropy. With the exception of the Intimidate passive of course.

But in all honesty, I didn't feel this thread was created to be a springboard for new and exciting ideas on how to combat everyone being a Vampire in PvP.

It bore the tell-tale signs of being yet another "Oh Gawd whyfor is ever'body vamp in PvP? Vampire Scrolls Online hur hur hur"

And no they're not the only one who bothered to think about the gist of the thread, I said a Dawnguard type quest and skill line would be awesome.

Daedra battling is one thing - but ZOS could bring a whole new round of storytelling to the game with the tapping of how the Dawnguard did things 1000 years before Skyrim (if they were even in existence in this timeline that is, if not? Eh fudge the lore a bit. We're in a time period that hasn't really been recorded, leaving vast possibilities and potential.)

If anything they could give us the Dawnguard origin story and a nifty skill line to go with it. Specifically for dealing with the Undead (and Lycanthropes)

WraithAzraiel

I would support that idea 110%. And I applaud you for trying to think of a solution outside of "NERF VAMPYRE NAO!!!!"

I like you, you're alright in my book.

If you're driving the "Give us a Dawnguard quest/skill line" train, I'm hopping on board.

OrangeTheCat

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I would support that idea 110%. And I applaud you for trying to think of a solution outside of "NERF VAMPYRE NAO!!!!"

I like you, you're alright in my book.

If you're driving the "Give us a Dawnguard quest/skill line" train, I'm hopping on board.

>.>

Samadhi

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

...
However, I wouldn't mind being barred from using Fighter's Guild abilities upon embracing Vampirism or Lycanthropy. With the exception of the Intimidate passive of course.
...

Just give each line their own Intimidate passive and we're good to go.

WraithAzraiel

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

I would support that idea 110%. And I applaud you for trying to think of a solution outside of "NERF VAMPYRE NAO!!!!"

I like you, you're alright in my book.

If you're driving the "Give us a Dawnguard quest/skill line" train, I'm hopping on board.

>.>

What? I was supporting you and saying it'd be a great idea. No sarcasm or snarkiness whatsoever.

If you push for it, I'll be behind you.

Braddass

While I would not be opposed to a Dawnguard skill line, that would take a long time to implement. The easy solution would be to nerf Vampires down to WW level, and there would not be so many Vamps. I would imagine there would be a miraculous cure across the land.

Making Vamps god-mode was an extremely poor design decision.

wllstrt75b14_ESO

I am guessing the OP wants abilities to act similar to how silver bolt was a few months back when it would kill all vamps and undead in one shot every time.
As it is now I love the fighters guild line, I love dawnbreaking some vamp arse in pvp.

OrangeTheCat

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

snip

What? I was supporting you and saying it'd be a great idea. No sarcasm or snarkiness whatsoever.

If you push for it, I'll be behind you.

I see.

Well yes, I was not pushing for nerfs of anything; I thought that was clear enough as the word "nerf" didn't appear in anything I said.

I was asking for a skill line that works well in PvP and that is a counter to some of the OPness of Vamps - at least a lot of people claim it is OP, I am not a vamp so I can't say, but I do see a whole lot of Vamps in PvP - (and maybe WWs too if and when they get "fixed") and that is exclusive (so Vamps and WWs could not be in that as-yet undefined skill line). Fighters Guild, at present, anyone can join and seems to me mostly about daedra (and what is in it that is relevant to undead seems hastily bolted on). I don't know the lore as well as many here do so if you say Dawnguard is the ticket, I believe you.

jpatek0501ub17_ESO

Garlic potions 5min Duration w/ 500% resist to vamp skills. Silver Bolt can be morphed to Wooden Bolt w/ 500% damage increase to Vamp w/ 500% heal reduction/regen for 3min.

GnatB

Honestly? Vamps are too powerful. The fact that they are so pervasive makes that obvious. There should be more downsides than upsides for all but a few very niche builds. It's absurd that you see so many people running around asking to be bit, they should be running around asking to be cured.

So, yeah. I'd say make silver bolts 100% vs PC vamps. Prevent PC vamps from using fighters guild skills (and advancing in the FG questline.) Oh, and come on, please do something to severely handicap them when outside in daylight. whether it's 10% damage/minute with 0 natural regen, or -10% max health every minute up to -80%, or something.

WraithAzraiel

jpatek0501ub17_ESO wrote: »

Garlic potions 5min Duration w/ 500% resist to vamp skills. Silver Bolt can be morphed to Wooden Bolt w/ 500% damage increase to Vamp w/ 500% heal reduction/regen for 3min.

Unnecessarily high. Vampires aren't THAT big of the problem. We have 2 active skills and an ultimate. 1 of those skills is a health drain, the other is a damage mitigation/escape. The ultimate can either be morphed into an AOE health drain or a pure damage dealer that makes the caster invis for the duration.

As it stands the most powerful build a vampire can have is a light armor, destro/resto staff/1h+shield Sorcerer or Dragon Knight.

Us NightBlade vampires are no where near as much of a threat as the "skirts".

Braddass wrote: »

While I would not be opposed to a Dawnguard skill line, that would take a long time to implement. The easy solution would be to nerf Vampires down to WW level, and there would not be so many Vamps. I would imagine there would be a miraculous cure across the land.

Making Vamps god-mode was an extremely poor design decision.

TL:DR Vampire is not OP, the classes that use the skill line are

That's not a solution at all, Vampires were already nerfed and it MADE NO DIFFERENCE.

Why, you ask? Because Vampire, NEVER HAS BEEN the problem.

Read my posts in their entirety before you hop on the "LOLTwilightOnline" train.

The Vampire skill line, is NOT INHERENTLY God-Mode.

Let me break it down Barney-style for you.

Night Blade Vampire -

Pros: You gain a health drain that stuns and unbalances opponents for 4 seconds and can generate ultimate if morphed to Invigorating Drain, an OH SH!T button for when you bite off more than you can chew in PvE OR PvP, an increase to STAMINA and Magicka regen by a max of 10%, receive Damage Mitigation as health decreases - capping out at 33%, AND an Ultimate that can be morphed to either give you Health for each target hit or grant invisibility.
DISCLAIMER: Near launch there was a bug that granted you invulnerability whilst Bat Swarm was active, and another bug that allowed for it to be cast over and over, effectively stacking on itself. This was made worse by Emperor's abusing it. It has since been fixed and the damage and health gain nerfed.

Cons: Fire, FIRE and moar fire. Oh yea, the most prevalent elemental damage in the game. Also, ALL of the Fighter's Guild attack skills.

Sorcerer Vampire:

Pros: See above. Also add all the advantages that comes with being a Sorc
IE - Bound Armor - basically allows you to have all the defense of wearing Heavy Armor whilst retaining the benefit of wearing all light armor at the cost of a skill slot and -10% max magicka, Power Stone reduces the cost of ALL Ultimate abilities by 15%, Unholy Knowledge reduces the cost of Stamina and MAGICKA abilities by a max of 5%, Capacitor increases Magicka Recovery by 10%.

Cons: If you're running around with Bound Armor, are a Dark Elf and are running at least 1 piece of Fire Resist jewelry, there pretty much are NO cons.

Dragon Knight:

Pros: See Base Pro's mentioned under Night Blade, all of DK's abilities provide survivability: Standard of Might reduces incoming damage by 20% and increases outgoing damage by 20%, Choking Talons reduces affected enemies damage output by 15%, Green Dragon Blood is just discouraging - instant return of 33% of missing health, Health recov up'd by 40% and stamina by 30%

Cons: Mitigated away by all the survivability granted with being a Dragon Knight.

Templar:

Pros: See Base Pro's mentioned under Night Blade, kinda at a loss with this one, outside of being the best possible healing class and spamming Blazing Shield I haven't heard this class being lauded as inherently OP. But as another magicka-heavy class, these may apply: Restoring Spirit reduces the cost of ALL abilities (magicka, stamina, and ultimate) by 4%, aaaaaaand that's pretty much it.

Cons: Healed away with the healing available with being a Templar.

Templar is sparse and I don't think I've ever seen a vampire Templar to be perfectly honest. So at the very best, the only bonus you'd have to being a vampire as a Templar is the 10% increase to Stamina and Magicka Regen.


NOW we get to the good part. The non-class related skills.

Light Armor: Evocation reduces the Magicka cost of spells by 3% per piece of light armor worn allowing for a max of a 21% cost reduction to all abilities that cost Magicka, Recovery Magicka Recovery by 4% per piece worn to allow a max for a 28% increase to Magicka Regen if all 7 pieces of armor are light, blah blah blah Magicka magicka magicka. Seeing as all class skills cost Magicka this is a broad-sweeping boon across the board. See all threads labeled along the lines of "Magicka vs Stamina Builds"

Assault: Combat Frenzy grants 25 Ultimate for each enemy killed. Add this to all the Ultimate generation and Ultimate cost reduction skills and it's a pretty worthwhile skill to have.

And the Grand Finale

Emperor: God-mode.
Authority increase Ultimate generation by 100% and decrease cost by 5%for current Emperors and decreases cost by 5% for former Emperors. Emperor also increases you health stamina and magicka by 100% while in your campaign. Also increase health stamina and magicka Recovery by 100% while IN COMBAT for current Emperor and 2% for former Emperor.

Add all this up on a Sorcerer or a Dragon Knight and no power in the 'verse can stop them and Vampire has damn near nothing to do with it, it's just a handy tool for sheer fact that you can have a decent AOE health drain.

TL:DR: Vampire has never been the problem, poorly balanced classes always were and will continue to be until adjusted

I hope this explanation has broadened your understanding of Vampire NOT being inherently OP by itself, as a skill line.

WraithAzraiel

GnatB wrote: »

Honestly? Vamps are too powerful. The fact that they are so pervasive makes that obvious. There should be more downsides than upsides for all but a few very niche builds. It's absurd that you see so many people running around asking to be bit, they should be running around asking to be cured.

So, yeah. I'd say make silver bolts 100% vs PC vamps. Prevent PC vamps from using fighters guild skills (and advancing in the FG questline.) Oh, and come on, please do something to severely handicap them when outside in daylight. whether it's 10% damage/minute with 0 natural regen, or -10% max health every minute up to -80%, or something.

See my above statement. There is absolutely NO reason to give Vampires this much of a penalty. None whatsoever. Vampire and Werewolf are at best, flavors to be added to your character at your discretion, to allow for a different style of play.

It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is the driving factor for players being considered OP.

Braddass

WraithAzraiel wrote: »

See my above statement. There is absolutely NO reason to give Vampires this much of a penalty. None whatsoever. Vampire and Werewolf are at best, flavors to be added to your character at your discretion, to allow for a different style of play.

It in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM is the driving factor for players being considered OP.

If Vampire was just a flavor, there would not be so many of them. Even your statements show the pros far outweigh the cons. If not, then why are Vamp sorcerers more powerful than non-Vamp sorcerers, Vamp DKs more powerful than non-Vamp DKs, etc.?

Most people do not play Vamp due to its flavor, but due to its substance. Being a Vamp makes yous substantially more powerful. I am willing to bet that, if they were to nerf Vamp down to WW level, Vamp would somehow lose its "flavor" and there would be a miraculous cure throughout the land.