Why do ranged attacks find their target?

Kos

I used to play oblivion and one of the things I liked was that I could avoid projectiles by simply getting out of their way. I also had to try and anticipate the movement of my target when casting spells. That was real fun. Do we know why did ZOS abandon this logic when creating TESO? There are some spells like AOE which you can avoid in such way, but single arrows or single target ranged spells tend to swerve following the target which seems unrealistic.

TheAmu

Is this your first MMO?

KitLightning

'cause aim-botting is serious business?

Kos

TheAmu wrote: »

Is this your first MMO?

No, I used to play WoW, but I also hated it there. I don't understand why is it a standard in MMOs..

eNumbra

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

KitLightning

eNumbra wrote: »

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

Uhm no, though they of course would have to master how to aim at where the target may be, depended on the travel time of the arrow and the targets current path and speed.
Its ridiculous to see an implemented aim-bot in the game, since that takes away a rather significant portion of skills from the player.

R1ckyDaMan

I agree OP, but to appeal to the mmo crowd it needed to be this way, the same as why the ui had to be so minimal to appeal to the pure TES crowd.

Rune_Relic

eNumbra wrote: »

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

Agreed. You'd dodge out the way all the time.
Should still be an accuracy chance though where the minimum improves with skill.
But that would have to apply to spells too.
Don't mess with the mage...K

KenjiJU

I think latency above all, followed by difficulty. I hated Oblivion's magic attacks and most of Skyrim's, since all the enemies sidestepped or just moved based on the funky gravity. It would have been a lot less disappointing in this game though.

eNumbra

KitLightning wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

Uhm no, though they of course would have to master how to aim at where the target may be, depended on the travel time of the arrow and the targets current path and speed.
Its ridiculous to see an implemented aim-bot in the game, since that takes away a rather significant portion of skills from the player.

Um, you're not playing a single player game, nor are you playing counter strike.

You would never not dodge range attacks. Range use would be pointless.

KhajitFurTrader

Not ever are two clients completely synchronized location-wise. There's always a slight discrepancy where other players are displayed for you, and where others see themselves. Just grab a buddy (preferably with voice chat), pick a distant target, and race him there. Repeat this a few times. Have several witnesses on the start and finish line. Then let the arguing about who came first commence...

Oblivion was a single player game running only on your computer. Of course the engine could let you aim, because it always knew exactly where everything was at all times. An MMO server does not have this kind of luxury. The number of messages to each client with positional data grows exponentially with the number of clients in the same visible area, so this information is sent only on the heartbeat, i.e. every two to three seconds.

KitLightning

eNumbra wrote: »

Um, you're not playing a single player game, nor are you playing counter strike.

You would never not dodge range attacks. Range use would be pointless.

I'm not even addressing whether it was for a single player or online game at all. I've played MechWarrior, Battlefield, Crysis and the likes online, so I know of aiming at range at a fast moving target. Its the same mechanics that's applied to arrows, given that it just have a higher arc to reach its target.
Though of course the range in ESO is quite small so I would surely assume that a player would dodge a ranged attack, that's normal adaptation of play-style if you know that your opponent has the ability to attack beyond melee. Running straight at a target is pure suicide, hence why the player need to anticipate where the target will be at, when the projectile hits.
And dodging a target should give the target the ability to avoid an attack, not as it is granting the shooter with an aim-bot ability.

AlexDougherty

KitLightning wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

Uhm no, though they of course would have to master how to aim at where the target may be, depended on the travel time of the arrow and the targets current path and speed.
Its ridiculous to see an implemented aim-bot in the game, since that takes away a rather significant portion of skills from the player.

That's much harder than it seems, especially when you take the games disagreements with exact location into the equation. It would render ranged combat into a joke.

zhevon

This would be nice - in fact I think that was the original plan; but ESO netcode, infrastructure, and probably the internet are not up to it. Many times I have been outside the "red zone" and gotten damaged anyway.

TheAmu

If you're asking for realism with ranged attacks, you could be asking for realism with 2 handed.

Why do you need to unlock a passive just to hit multiple targets with 2 handed when clearly you could just swing that *** maul and break all their skulls with one hit?

It's just easier and fairer for everyone if hits and misses are based on stats and percentages.

You're given a dodge ability to dodge special attacks and you have to time it perfectly.

I'm sorry this bothers you so much.

Raidenz258b14a_ESO

KitLightning wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Um, you're not playing a single player game, nor are you playing counter strike.

You would never not dodge range attacks. Range use would be pointless.

I'm not even addressing whether it was for a single player or online game at all. I've played MechWarrior, Battlefield, Crysis and the likes online, so I know of aiming at range at a fast moving target. Its the same mechanics that's applied to arrows, given that it just have a higher arc to reach its target.
Though of course the range in ESO is quite small so I would surely assume that a player would dodge a ranged attack, that's normal adaptation of play-style if you know that your opponent has the ability to attack beyond melee. Running straight at a target is pure suicide, hence why the player need to anticipate where the target will be at, when the projectile hits.
And dodging a target should give the target the ability to avoid an attack, not as it is granting the shooter with an aim-bot ability.

Are you comparing small scale controlled environment FPS games to an mmo?

Talrenos

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

I agree OP, but to appeal to the mmo crowd it needed to be this way, the same as why the ui had to be so minimal to appeal to the pure TES crowd.

BS. it does not need to be this way. Darkfall does it properly, using real world physics and archery takes skill and is actually fun to use. It does decent damage too.
Archery here is nothing more than just another form of magic spell with a different looking wrapper on it. Its a cheap dev cop-out, its not a standard, nor something that has to be done, its laziness

Kos

Some of the disadvantage of being range attacker could be compensated by increased damage, also you won't avoid all attacks, you will be surprised, or stunned or you will just fail to move at the appropriate time.

KitLightning

Raidenz258b14a_ESO wrote: »

Are you comparing small scale controlled environment FPS games to an mmo?

I'm not comparing game types, but game mechanics. Aim-botting is a player assist, whereas fire-and-forget projectiles requires just a little bit of aiming skills.
And I'm not sure that hitting a moving target at 600>1800 meters with ballistics can be considered small scale?

Nihili

I can't believe there's even a discussion about this…

I actually would love to see ZOS implement this. So these people here who are in favor of it can eat dirt

k9mouse

The short answer because ESO is an MMO

The longer answer: it have to do with server and client talking over the internet. Move objects on the screen more data have to be sent. ZOS goal is to have 200 people on screen at once and even half of them use range weapons, that is still a lot of data to be sent. The sever and the client never can be perfectly be sync to each other due to the nature of the internet is built. It is just one of the trade offs one have to make to have a large scale MMO like ESO is.

I agree with OP, it will nice to have more real time dodge in ESO, but due to the current state of tech. It is not possible yet.

kieso

Kos wrote: »

TheAmu wrote: »

Is this your first MMO?

No, I used to play WoW, but I also hated it there. I don't understand why is it a standard in MMOs..

It's not a standard in all MMO's and the idiot asking if it's your first MMO doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

and I agree being able to avoid projectiles makes for a much better and much more strategic experience.

Rune_Relic

Will come back to this thread when everyone is on fibre optics then.
Not possible....yet. Same reason they put collision detection in for PVE but not for PVP.

kitsinni

Aside from the technical aspects, in PvP it would be close to impossible to hit anyone with the current setup. Attacks would have to have far less travel time. People rarely don't move in PvP this change would make it 100% ae zergs. I honestly think people need to stop nitpicking realism in a fantasy magic game. I mean we are shooting fireballs out of our hands then worried about the realism of the flight path of the fireball. Just pretend the same magic that let's you shoot the fireball allows for a magic target tracking system.

Sarenia

KitLightning wrote: »

eNumbra wrote: »

Range users would be an an incredible disadvantage otherwise.

Uhm no, though they of course would have to master how to aim at where the target may be, depended on the travel time of the arrow and the targets current path and speed.
Its ridiculous to see an implemented aim-bot in the game, since that takes away a rather significant portion of skills from the player.

I could sidestep nearly every ranged attack where I have some distance from the archer. I do this in Skyrim, where attacks don't auto land. That's with arrow speed boosted by a good bit in the ini too.

Now, add in the latency factor. Not everybody has a rock solid cable connection, and some who do still have to deal with a bad juncture between them and the server.

The latter is essentially why you see it on multiplayer games.

AlexDougherty

kieso wrote: »

Kos wrote: »

TheAmu wrote: »

Is this your first MMO?

No, I used to play WoW, but I also hated it there. I don't understand why is it a standard in MMOs..

It's not a standard in all MMO's and the idiot asking if it's your first MMO doesn't know wtf he's talking about.

and I agree being able to avoid projectiles makes for a much better and much more strategic experience.

Not if you're the archer.

If you make it so it's easier to dodge the arrows, then nobody would invest in the skill line. Poof one dead skill line, and people asking why don't they make it so archery is more viable.

It's a balancing act, make bows too strong and it destroys the game, make them useless and it destroys that part of the game. Diversity and all that jazz.

Arsenic_Touch

Talrenos wrote: »

R1ckyDaMan wrote: »

I agree OP, but to appeal to the mmo crowd it needed to be this way, the same as why the ui had to be so minimal to appeal to the pure TES crowd.

BS. it does not need to be this way. Darkfall does it properly, using real world physics and archery takes skill and is actually fun to use. It does decent damage too.
Archery here is nothing more than just another form of magic spell with a different looking wrapper on it. Its a cheap dev cop-out, its not a standard, nor something that has to be done, its laziness

Correction, it is a standard mmo mechanic. However it has been proven time and time again that it doesn't need to be that way and the better developers actually have real combat mechanics in their games.

DaniAngione

If games lag like hell being as simple as "select target/use skill/attack", imagine if the server had to receive shooting inputs, calculate the trajectory of every projectile, compare it to environment collision and then compare it to the current position of all moving and jumping other N (being N a huge number) players around, reminding yourselves that each position is also a received information from a different client with a different latency.... all that to check if one arrow hit. Now get your average cyrodiil battle and count how many arrows, spells and other projectiles were 'launched'.

That's why. It's really difficult to do that with our current tech/internet speeds. It's a wonder the combat system acts as it does already.

driosketch

Yes that would be nice, but as others have said, the internet is the reason why it's not done that way.

Several times I've been following behind a sneaking group in Cyrodiil and I can see the stutter step of the guys in front of me as the client-server communication readjusts their location. I notice it here because we are going slowly and not a lot else is going on. This probably happens all the time in large battles. Imagine trying to hit anyone in big battles without aim assist when you can't be sure they are even still in the position they appeared to be.

h1roshim4_ESO

OP you should try Darkfall. It's 100x more elder scrolls than ESO.

GnatB

Kos wrote: »

I used to play oblivion and one of the things I liked was that I could avoid projectiles by simply getting out of their way. I also had to try and anticipate the movement of my target when casting spells. That was real fun. Do we know why did ZOS abandon this logic when creating TESO?

Ignore everybody elses post about MMO, can't do it, etc. The answer is because this is more of an RPG than Oblivion was.

Kos wrote: »

TheAmu wrote: »

Is this your first MMO?

No, I used to play WoW, but I also hated it there. I don't understand why is it a standard in MMOs..

Because you're missing half the acronym. It's standard in MMORPG's. Because they are RPG's. In an RPG, character skill is the deciding factor, not player skill. So it's up to the character whether or not an attack hits, not up the the players ability to lead the target/guess movement correctly. Now, apparently in this game all our characters are really good shots (for the most part) It's up to the victim to have the skill to dodge. (via abilities, sets, etc.)

If you want an MMO where you actually have to lead the target correctly/etc. and can physically dodge out of the way of attacks, then you probably want an MMOFPS. And yes, they do exist. (which is why all the talk about "can't do that" is incorrect.)