WHY the stacking of dark stalker and nights silence issue is serious.

hamon

regardless if you personally feel its ok or not isn't the issue here.

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

Lets be clear, nothing has surprised them about this, they were informed of how fast DS-passive and NS set would allow folk to go BEFORE it went live.
they were ok with it then.

They were asked for clarification by lots of folk directly if this was indeed working as intended by folk to ensure they would not be wasting heaps of gold making these sets. they again never intimated anything was amiss, this was in full knowledge of the facts about exactly how it would work.

So the set and passives were working exactly as they intended when they let them go live in 1.3
Now 3 weeks later even with very little complaints , and NO UNEXPECTED issues they suddenly decide to completely drop passives stacking with sets for this one set alone.

This isn't a re-think on how passives stack with sets across the board, this isnt due to any unforseen balance issues (it is working exactly as intended and exactly as they were informed it was before it left the PTS)

What it is , is a kneejerk response to the complaints of a very small amount of people which will cost alot of customers a large amount of money.
If they intend to stick with this nerf I would expect a full apology for this complete reversal of positions along with a full refund of money/mats invested in this set.

Aong with a full review of its position in terms of stacking set bonus's with passives across hte board. in the name of balance. if passives from one line are being removed from stacking with a particular set then remove passives and set stacking from ALL sets..

To me this is an utter disgrace and as shody a way to conduct a business as ive ever encountered.

onlinegamer1

The whiners will literally be posting "Please let Nights Silence stack again" after they start getting 1-shotted by the 10 Nightblades who don't cancel their subs, and go back to using actual good armor sets.

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO

If they didn't refund mats for all the set changes in 1.3 which numerous people demanded, they are not going to refund mats on something they are stating as unintended (at the very least, they are saying this NOW) and fixed.

hamon

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The whiners will literally be posting "Please let Nights Silence stack again" after they start getting 1-shotted by the 10 Nightblades who don't cancel their subs, and go back to using actual good armor sets.

indeed wearing nights silence was in effect gimping yourself in terms of damage output for the sake of utility, to my mind a fair trade off.

and id rather my enemy hits me less hard but moves around out of combat faster. that the other way round

hamon

ryanmjmcevoy_ESO wrote: »

If they didn't refund mats for all the set changes in 1.3 which numerous people demanded, they are not going to refund mats on something they are stating as unintended (at the very least, they are saying this NOW) and fixed.

but this isnt the same at all. the sets before 1.3 were updated across the board. everyone was hit with that ,

in view of that fact people chose to be wary and ask if this particualr set was in fact working as intended before being fleeced a second time.. they made no indication it was even remotely possible anything was wrong , and had full possesion of the data on how fast it could make folk move.

3 weeks later they reverse that position , how can you suddenly decide what was tested and questioned then BEFORE being allowed to go live , can go from that to in need of complete removal 3 weeks later ???

i could understand if they hadn't been aware of the speed before it went live but they were aware and deemed it acceptable.

Xanthro

hamon wrote: »

onlinegamer1 wrote: »

The whiners will literally be posting "Please let Nights Silence stack again" after they start getting 1-shotted by the 10 Nightblades who don't cancel their subs, and go back to using actual good armor sets.

indeed wearing nights silence was in effect gimping yourself in terms of damage output for the sake of utility, to my mind a fair trade off.

and id rather my enemy hits me less hard but moves around out of combat faster. that the other way round

Speed out of combat, or 20% extra damage while in steal on invisible, which increase clouding swarm damage too.
Which set is more likely to get you killed?
Yet people *** about the one giving out of combat speed.

seanolan

People, it's totally serial! Why won't anyone take this serial? Manbearpig!

Lorkhan

ill play a sorc now. hope i dont get burned out. I should have done it a long time ago. nb fix ll take a lot more, we all know that. insist on this class is just foolish.

Dominoid

They took our jobs!

rashkosh127ub17_ESO

Dominoid wrote: »

They took our jobs!

derterkerjerbssssssssssssss

ThisOnePosts

I agree OP. This is also opening a can of worms to lead to another wave of incoming nerfs.

Here, let me explain simply. ZOS does take the easy way out sometimes (it's like forget quality, just rush it out there and put duct tape on it to keep it together).
When it comes to nerfs, let's say if they left Bolt Escape alone... which IMO they should have --- they could have used that as a positive opportunity to create such utilities or options --- FOR ALL CLASSES. But they see a nice cool toy and instead of giving cool toys to everyone, they take away the few cool toys. Rinse and repeat.

Anytime anything is working great, don't get too comfortable is what I'm gathering based on experience so far. Well LA/Impulse has had a long run but we all know those days are numbered especially if they are nerfing something that has BARELY any combat advantage in comparison to the other set choices. The moment you reveal yourself or are seen, you move at normal speed. Stuck in combat (oh so frequently in Cyrodiil) --- normal speed. Eye staying open but no one is around --- normal speed.

Night's Silence as a Vamp was working great and FUN in the short time I tested it before curing Vamp and changing to Seducer set on my NB --- also getting Surprise Attack back because let's face it, Concealed is a waste of time without being able to stack those for speed of which I wasn't since I wanted all of that Magicka Glory that the Seducer set gives.

So yeah, it was fast... it was like someone took 20-25 of the horses levels and fed it nothing but Apples. But if you compare it to a horse that someone fed apples 30x, the 30x horse will be faster. My friends and I were racing with a few different horses (hence why we made the sets and did a low cost respec to get Concealed) from each of us and my speed/stam Gaited horse was about the same speed, tiny bit faster.

So yes this is pretty serious, it's becoming a trend and instead of using it as an opportunity to be extremely creative and also communicating such things, they say ahhhh I'm feeling like a nerf day... let's nerf something!! Oh look, there's a handful of cries and the rest are okay with it.. ahhh let's go with the crying few and nerf it into the ground! "Hmmm what set / passives will we hone in on next??!!! Tune in next week, for a game of Spin the Nerf!!!" --- that's how it goes down I'm beginning to believe.

Sunrock

hamon wrote: »

regardless if you personally feel its ok or not isn't the issue here.

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

Lets be clear, nothing has surprised them about this, they were informed of how fast DS-passive and NS set would allow folk to go BEFORE it went live.
they were ok with it then.

They were asked for clarification by lots of folk directly if this was indeed working as intended by folk to ensure they would not be wasting heaps of gold making these sets. they again never intimated anything was amiss, this was in full knowledge of the facts about exactly how it would work.

So the set and passives were working exactly as they intended when they let them go live in 1.3
Now 3 weeks later even with very little complaints , and NO UNEXPECTED issues they suddenly decide to completely drop passives stacking with sets for this one set alone.

This isn't a re-think on how passives stack with sets across the board, this isnt due to any unforseen balance issues (it is working exactly as intended and exactly as they were informed it was before it left the PTS)

What it is , is a kneejerk response to the complaints of a very small amount of people which will cost alot of customers a large amount of money.
If they intend to stick with this nerf I would expect a full apology for this complete reversal of positions along with a full refund of money/mats invested in this set.

Aong with a full review of its position in terms of stacking set bonus's with passives across hte board. in the name of balance. if passives from one line are being removed from stacking with a particular set then remove passives and set stacking from ALL sets..

To me this is an utter disgrace and as shody a way to conduct a business as ive ever encountered.

I understand all your arguments except this spend allot of money on the set.... That is your personal experience. First of all it will cost differently for each player. Personally I have a large stock of crafting materials so it was practically free for me, as it freed up some bank space to craft the set and did not force me to sell the materials on a market that undervalues the materials needed to craft the set. So the statement that " will cost alot of customers a large amount of money" is BS. It will not... as most players craft there own stuff and grind there own materials. They would have no problems craft 50 more sets that are "purple" and 10 that are legendary in a heart beat.

But even if you do not harvest and/or craft your self. It all come down to how good you are at making a deal with other players. Should the game developers be responsible for your own or any other players lack of intelligent to make a good deal? Of course not. That would be very insulting of them to do as we are not a bunch of 5 year olds.

But I agree that it's a bit weird that they are nerfing the stealth speed stacking. Can be for future content though. I can see it being very OP when the justice system comes.

Saet

Well it may have not cost the player any money but it will now require that player to have to replace those materials to make a new set. Meaning they will have less of a pool of resources than the player who went with another set. It is unfair and should be refunded. I havent sen any other set changed to something that completely doesnt work for a build that is using it. There were some nerfed of course but this becomes useless for any vampires.

Cody

like I said a few months ago. ZOS policy for ESO is:

make the weak weaker
make the strong stronger

I feel for all of the NBs that were using this, I know how weak the class is, in fact, it COULD be the weakest in the entire game. This combination was one of the few things NBs had that made them stand out, and now ZOS is taking it away.
and all because some players cried about it...
people, this is not like Bolt escape or dragons blood. You don't have to change your class to use this combo! heck, you don't even need to be a NB to use this!
if you wanted it nerfed out of jealousy, then you are an idiot. all you have to do, is find out where the station for the set is, and make it! then become a vamp! and boom! huge sneak speed!

if you actually thought this was game breaking.... then you don't understand the actual problems this game has. A combination that gave nothing more than a SPEED BOOST, while sacrificing COMBAT EFFECTIVNESS, and, IT CAN ONLY BE USED IN STEALTH, is NOT game breaking. getting thru closed gates is game breaking. stacking a crap ton of shields and being almost invincible is game breaking, hitting people for 11K damage is game breaking, my cloak not working 90% of the dang time is game breaking, an increased amount of speed, IN STEALTH ONLY, WHILE TRADING COMBAT EFFECTIVNESS, is not game breaking.

If ZOS plans to listen to a few jealous idiots every time they whine about something, this game wont last. That is the truth.

Lets hope this is the last idiotic mistake ZOS makes in this game. They can fix the dang NB cloak that has been broken since launch to start redeeming themselves.

Asgari

I do not think many are truly aware how broken the NB class is. They all see the snipes from bow attack or ambush and say they are OP from the damage seen. However, unless you go for a siphon set up you cant really last at all in 1vX fight because NB are unable to get into stealth %50+ of the time.

I know they say a fix is coming for the DOTs that where causing this but the class is still gimped compared to Sorcs and the others. I play a Sorc and feel horrible for anyone who spent personal hours they can not get back investing it into the NB class to only be screwed over once again.

congrats to the QQ community for making this game a 3 classed game and not 4.

Attorneyatlawl

@hamon , I pointed out the inconsistency on ZOS' part regarding this here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130476/why-is-night-s-silence-being-called-a-bug-in-the-patch-notes-werewolves-being-unable-to-cc-break as well. Needless to say, I agree. I would bet just about anything it is another kneejerk reaction just like the API nerfs prelaunch, gutting of stock UI features, and some balance changes that have been made in general, to forum whining.

I sincerely doubt they suddenly decided that the way they were going about calculating movement speed mechanics in the game was broken and needed to be "fixed" therefore as the patch note and CM posts imply. What actually happened, I'd personally assume, is that they saw forum complaints making a big ruckus over what most regard in-game as a non-issue or a beneficial feature, and nerfed it to try to quell the negative forum activity.

Kego

Princess_Asgari wrote: »

I do not think many are truly aware how broken the NB class is. They all see the snipes from bow attack or ambush and say they are OP from the damage seen. However, unless you go for a siphon set up you cant really last at all in 1vX fight because NB are unable to get into stealth %50+ of the time.

I know they say a fix is coming for the DOTs that where causing this but the class is still gimped compared to Sorcs and the others. I play a Sorc and feel horrible for anyone who spent personal hours they can not get back investing it into the NB class to only be screwed over once again.

congrats to the QQ community for making this game a 3 classed game and not 4.

Problem of the Nightblade class is, that outside of a Resto-Life Leech Build it has to kill anyone in ~3-4 seconds. Because NB have NO survival Skills like Absorb shields, direct Heals, Teleport, Refelctive Skills and so on.

All we have is a Cloak that is bugged since Release and useless agains Mage Light user. A selfbuff with 15% Miss chance and three Skills that give uns minor HoTs that heal about 20-70HP every 2 seconds, depending on how much Magicka and SpellDMG you use.
Problem of the Heals are:

• Leeching Strike only heals with Light- and Heavy Attacks, during that time we have 22% less Weapon Power and Spell Power.
• Refreshing Path does totally lousy DoT DMG and Heals for 50HP every second with Magicka Set, if you are Stamina oriented, it heals for 20HP.
• Strife that heals every 2 sec. for 40-70 HP, if it works, sometimes it only heals for 7HP every 2 sec. (yay awesome).

It is just sad, that you can only go Resto Staff with NB if you want any real survival. Their is no option in going 1Hand Shield or other Weapons.

It is Light Armor with Resto Staff or Medium Armor with insane burst, cause if the enemy don't die in seconds, you will die.

hamon

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@hamon , I pointed out the inconsistency on ZOS' part regarding this here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/130476/why-is-night-s-silence-being-called-a-bug-in-the-patch-notes-werewolves-being-unable-to-cc-break as well. Needless to say, I agree. I would bet just about anything it is another kneejerk reaction just like the API nerfs prelaunch, gutting of stock UI features, and some balance changes that have been made in general, to forum whining.

I sincerely doubt they suddenly decided that the way they were going about calculating movement speed mechanics in the game was broken and needed to be "fixed" therefore as the patch note and CM posts imply. What actually happened, I'd personally assume, is that they saw forum complaints making a big ruckus over what most regard in-game as a non-issue or a beneficial feature, and nerfed it to try to quell the negative forum activity.

yes this is the point. Ive utterly lost respect for zos and i,ll be cancelling my sub over this .

It's about fairness and consistency. It's like in sport referrees can differ in how tough or lenient they are from match to match as a football fan this is normal.
What upsets fans is when they arn't consistent

if they give a yellow card for one type of tackle they need to keep doing the same for the whole match.
Same when i watched baseball , if they have set a small strike zone thats fine as long as its the same strike zone for both teams.

which is why they cannot decide moving at that pace is suddenly a "bug" if that pace is achieved through means of dark stalker and NS set.

but if its ahcieved through Bolt escape its completely acceptable. even tho bolt escape is completely limited to one class, requires no sacrifice in terms of comabt effectiveness, and has potent combat use as well.

its a sick joke and iv,e had it with ZOS over this blatant unfairness.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Agreed. take seducer set, light armor, and breton magic mastery for instance. Why doesn't the Light armor set overwrite the others like they are trying with night silence. People shouldn't get 21+5+8% spell cost reduction if they have all of them, they should just get 21%. then add the 15% to mages guild skills, why should they get that when they have 21% from light armor? They shouldn't stack. Then medium armor cost reduction should not apply to dw, 2h, and bow attacks, but the 14% should if you are at that max overwrite 1h/sh's 10% cost reduction.

Etc with too many other things you can possibly list where effects are stackable where they should now not be if they go through with this change.

Xexpo

I am not a Nightblade.
I think this incoming nerf is completely unneeded.
Fix the actual broken things Zenimax
~thx

rophez_ESO

hamon wrote: »

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

I've seen several of the pro-superspeed stealth crowd mention this. I've yet to actually see a quote from a dev saying that the vamp stealth penalty negation was supposed to stack with stealth penalty bonuses.

onlinegamer1

rophez_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

I've seen several of the pro-superspeed stealth crowd mention this. I've yet to actually see a quote from a dev saying that the vamp stealth penalty negation was supposed to stack with stealth penalty bonuses.

Its been posted many times. I'll post it one more time.

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/125116/night-s-silence-concealment-sneak-speed-boost-bug

Quote from Gina:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Roger that - passing this one along. Thanks, and good find!

That's Gina Bruno, CONFIRMING that multiple sources of sneak speed SHOULD STACK WITH ONE ANOTHER.

rophez_ESO

Wait, a community rep saying she'll pass something along to the devs to look at is comfirming that they should stack?

onlinegamer1

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Wait, a community rep saying she'll pass something along to the devs to look at is comfirming that they should stack?

Of course it is. Stop being obtuse.

Samadhi

rophez_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

I've seen several of the pro-superspeed stealth crowd mention this. I've yet to actually see a quote from a dev saying that the vamp stealth penalty negation was supposed to stack with stealth penalty bonuses.

The set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, not a reduction to Sneak penalty.
Since the set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, it stacks on top of Dark Stalker bonus, which negates the Sneak penalty.

If the set were programmed to reduce Sneak penalty, it would not have stacked with Dark Stalker to begin with. That isn't the case though.

The set bonus combined with Dark Stalker is currently working exactly as it is programmed to work on Live.
ZOS is changing that because some players do not like the way that it works.

hamon

Samadhi wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

I've seen several of the pro-superspeed stealth crowd mention this. I've yet to actually see a quote from a dev saying that the vamp stealth penalty negation was supposed to stack with stealth penalty bonuses.

The set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, not a reduction to Sneak penalty.
Since the set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, it stacks on top of Dark Stalker bonus, which negates the Sneak penalty.

If the set were programmed to reduce Sneak penalty, it would not have stacked with Dark Stalker to begin with. That isn't the case though.

The set bonus combined with Dark Stalker is currently working exactly as it is programmed to work on Live.
ZOS is changing that because some players do not like the way that it works.

yes and what stinks about this is they were asked specifically if this was supposed to be the case and they said it was. or at least never expressed any concern when pressented with the data while it was still on PTS.

so folk asked directly before wasting money making the sets then they cave to a minor amount of moronic complaints 3 weeks later.

but BE (the fastest way to travel in the game) remains untouched.

utter crap from zos

Samadhi

hamon wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

its about a complete U turn on a set that went live 3 weeks ago after full scrutiny by ZOS and is WORKING AS INTENDED by them at that time.

I've seen several of the pro-superspeed stealth crowd mention this. I've yet to actually see a quote from a dev saying that the vamp stealth penalty negation was supposed to stack with stealth penalty bonuses.

The set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, not a reduction to Sneak penalty.
Since the set provides a bonus to Sneak speed, it stacks on top of Dark Stalker bonus, which negates the Sneak penalty.

If the set were programmed to reduce Sneak penalty, it would not have stacked with Dark Stalker to begin with. That isn't the case though.

The set bonus combined with Dark Stalker is currently working exactly as it is programmed to work on Live.
ZOS is changing that because some players do not like the way that it works.

yes and what stinks about this is they were asked specifically if this was supposed to be the case and they said it was. or at least never expressed any concern when pressented with the data while it was still on PTS.

so folk asked directly before wasting money making the sets then they cave to a minor amount of moronic complaints 3 weeks later.

but BE (the fastest way to travel in the game) remains untouched.

utter crap from zos

To be honest, I do not entirely comprehend the purpose of the PTS, when the only input that really seems to matter are complaints made regarding Live server.

Yusuf

Stop crying already, cast retreating maneuver and drink a speed potion, you're still fast with either Dark Stalker or Night's Silence.
In fact, i'm glad i can get my ugly vampirism cured now.

hamon

but the complaints were about the speed nothing more so why not remove retreating manouvers and bolt escape. if moving fast is the problem? cos this didnt affect combat at all.

rophez_ESO

Actually, the complaints were about being able to SNEAK as fast as most horses can run. It's just kinda absurd. I have no problem with them putting in some awesome set bonus for stealthers, like being able to enter sneak while in combat if you roll or something. They just need to be more creative.

hamon

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Actually, the complaints were about being able to SNEAK as fast as most horses can run. It's just kinda absurd. I have no problem with them putting in some awesome set bonus for stealthers, like being able to enter sneak while in combat if you roll or something. They just need to be more creative.

ye cos that wouldnt affect comabt at all eh, NB's could roll to get stealth and pop another big crit.

how could you think that would be ok but moving fast OUT OF COMBAT ONLY seems to make you think its insane?