"I do over 1k dps.." ...but does this really matter?

Magdalina

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

Are you talking AoE dps or Single Target dps?

Phinix1

ZOS set themselves up for this, and to this day I have no idea what in Oblivion they were thinking. I mean a big leaderboard that rewards time of completion over quality of the run, and then spamming it incessantly in your chat AND mail? Seriously what the fudge?

While DPS is an important way of gauging whether a person is adequately geared (in the absence of an inspect feature), it ultimately comes down to SKILL. Besides, someone could easily lie about their DPS, since the API does not allow addons to show you OTHER people's DPS to confirm what they say.

Trust me, I have run dungeons with people that refuse to bash heavy attack windups, refuse not to stand in obvious ground effects, refuse to even attempt to follow basic, friendly instructions, and just mash their super hero rotation while the group wipes time after time due to their selfish stupidity.

I would rather take someone with a few hundred less DPS then one of these morons ANY day.

AoEnwyr

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Trust me, I have run dungeons with people that refuse to bash heavy attack windups, refuse not to stand in obvious ground effects, refuse to even attempt to follow basic, friendly instructions, and just mash their super hero rotation while the group wipes time after time due to their selfish stupidity.
.

Yes, this exactly. In a previous MMO I played there was a way to see "gear score" and this was used much the was dps figures are used in this game. Unfortunately a good gear score did not mean good sense. Also given that it was f2p (read p2w) half the people had bought top end gear and couldn't play properly anyway.

Magdalina

p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »

Are you talking AoE dps or Single Target dps?

People usually talk about their single target dps because AOE depends on number of targets(and you'll want single target dps against most bosses, anyway).

GaldorP

It matters in trials because some boss fights are designed like dps checks: they will automatically wipe your entire group if you don't have enough dps. Player skills (reaction, blocking, movement, dodging at the right time) are less important in trials because many boss mechanics can be circumvented by just sticking together as a group in one spot. Experience, on the other hand, is very important (knowing when to do what, which mechanics and "tricks"* groups in general use).

In veteran dungeons, pure dps is less important and player skills matter more, in general. Although some of the harder bosses can be made a lot easier with certain "tricks"* as well. The only case where you really need "good" dps is when you try to do the CoH speed run achievement. But then again someone with a bit less dps but better player skills and more experience will be a lot more helpful there, too.

* I wrote "tricks" in quotation marks because these are mechanics that were obviously overlooked by the designers but aren't quite exploits yet (opposed to the "trick" at the last boss in the Craglorn delve Hircine's Haunt which half the player-base has been using to powerlevel through veteran ranks for months now which I would consider to be an exploit).

Pseudonym

Damage means nothing if you're not stunning, interrupting, providing utility or dodging the fire.

Damage is probably the least important aspect of the majority of encounters; and even during those few times when damage is the key to success, a handful of numbers here or there isn't going to make the difference, and if it does, your group needs to revise their synergy.

This game is all about group synergy and team work. Too many lone wolves out there trying to carry everyone.

Wifeaggro13

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

Its not the player it's the stupid development of ESO that designed a game around DPS . Its just as bad as TOR relying on enrage timers for every single encounter. ZOS . there is a serious lack of mechanics other then exploting animations,avoiding circles and healing combined with damage reduction abilites to stand on bosses and grind them into dust for fast runs.

ZOS created this dynamic and the end game meta min maxer is only playing by the rules or lack there of that ZOS made possible or impossible unless you do it in said fashion.

TehMagnus

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

It is when your skill is measured by the amount of damage you can pull while standing in the same spot. This was the case for Normal Mode trials.

Won't be for 1.4 content.

yiasemi

No. Leaving the house, eating right, brushing your teeth and improving self-confidence with the sexes of your choice will be more effective in the long run.

Aeratus

Survivability is more important, but surviving is maybe not as difficult as you make it sound to be.

If you want something that combines both survivability and dps outside of trials, the Crypt of Hears no-deaths achievement is a good test. You must survive, of course, but you have to have enough dps to break the bubble in the second phase of the last boss. In this regards, it is preferable that the tank and healer have relatively high dps in case one of the dps gets hit by the grasp move.

nerevarine1138

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

Its not the player it's the stupid development of ESO that designed a game around DPS . Its just as bad as TOR relying on enrage timers for every single encounter. ZOS . there is a serious lack of mechanics other then exploting animations,avoiding circles and healing combined with damage reduction abilites to stand on bosses and grind them into dust for fast runs.

ZOS created this dynamic and the end game meta min maxer is only playing by the rules or lack there of that ZOS made possible or impossible unless you do it in said fashion.

What game are you playing?

The only place that straight DPS matters is in a timed trial run, and even then, it only matters when all the players are good enough with the basic mechanics of the trial that they can focus on pure damage.

Bring your "designed around DPS" philosophy to Crypt of Hearts, and you've just screwed your group over.

Bleakraven

I think it's overrated, yes. Too bad every time I want to do a dungeon, people just rush-rush-rush to the end as fast as possible. I like taking my time, establishing tactics, trying different things. But nobody seems to have time for anything anymore and so I stopped doing dungeons. And agreed on having to babysit some people who are just so self-centered and blame the healer for not healing them when they stand in the freaking danger zones time and time again.

Wifeaggro13

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

Its not the player it's the stupid development of ESO that designed a game around DPS . Its just as bad as TOR relying on enrage timers for every single encounter. ZOS . there is a serious lack of mechanics other then exploting animations,avoiding circles and healing combined with damage reduction abilites to stand on bosses and grind them into dust for fast runs.

ZOS created this dynamic and the end game meta min maxer is only playing by the rules or lack there of that ZOS made possible or impossible unless you do it in said fashion.

What game are you playing?

The only place that straight DPS matters is in a timed trial run, and even then, it only matters when all the players are good enough with the basic mechanics of the trial that they can focus on pure damage.

Bring your "designed around DPS" philosophy to Crypt of Hearts, and you've just screwed your group over.

I tank crypt of hearts all the time , matter of fact the second to last boss you sendin 3 DPS with a off heal and kill the boss with out a healer or a tank. what about crypt of hearts is not about DPS. its primarily a AOE DPS check the whole damn run. Just an exercise in burning adds.

Trials are about avoiding or healing through mechanics with damage reduction in AA, Hel Ra is a tad different.

Even the Golem where its a heavy movement fight is about dps. Killing adds before next round repsawns, the 15 % enrage on him its all about DPS. The spider again AOE DPS and avoid big red chasing circle.

ZOS is about DPS and puddle jumping. there are no interupting bosses no silencing a mechanic no slow burns . every boss is about kill it faster then it can kill you

nerevarine1138

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

Its not the player it's the stupid development of ESO that designed a game around DPS . Its just as bad as TOR relying on enrage timers for every single encounter. ZOS . there is a serious lack of mechanics other then exploting animations,avoiding circles and healing combined with damage reduction abilites to stand on bosses and grind them into dust for fast runs.

ZOS created this dynamic and the end game meta min maxer is only playing by the rules or lack there of that ZOS made possible or impossible unless you do it in said fashion.

What game are you playing?

The only place that straight DPS matters is in a timed trial run, and even then, it only matters when all the players are good enough with the basic mechanics of the trial that they can focus on pure damage.

Bring your "designed around DPS" philosophy to Crypt of Hearts, and you've just screwed your group over.

I tank crypt of hearts all the time , matter of fact the second to last boss you sendin 3 DPS with a off heal and kill the boss with out a healer or a tank. what about crypt of hearts is not about DPS. its primarily a AOE DPS check the whole damn run. Just an exercise in burning adds.

Trials are about avoiding or healing through mechanics with damage reduction in AA, Hel Ra is a tad different.

Even the Golem where its a heavy movement fight is about dps. Killing adds before next round repsawns, the 15 % enrage on him its all about DPS. The spider again AOE DPS and avoid big red chasing circle.

ZOS is about DPS and puddle jumping. there are no interupting bosses no silencing a mechanic no slow burns . every boss is about kill it faster then it can kill you

Sorry, but you're just flat-out wrong, and you're missing what your competent DPS are doing in multiple situations.

If you just do AoE DPS in Crypt of Hearts, the healer enemies will make life unbearable for you. If you don't have DPS consistently controlling those healers, then you can easily wipe on adds. And your argument about the second-to-last boss actually contradicts your core philosophy. If it was a DPS burn, you wouldn't bother only sending 3 people in. The only reason to do that is to make sure that you have a better chance at surviving the mechanics of the fight, even if you burn the boss down a little more slowly.

And no, many bosses don't allow you to interrupt their main abilities. But there are plenty of bosses (Mage, Warrior, final VR CoH boss, final VR Darkshade Caverns boss, etc.) that demand an almost flawless group dynamic. You cannot beat those bosses if you get tunnel vision and only focus on them. You can't even beat them if you just do "puddle-jumping," as you call it. They require tactics, group mobility, and a strong grasp of target priority.

Of course "every boss is about killing it faster than it can kill you." What a sophomoric statement. It completely ignores, however, that you can't possibly kill most of these bosses faster than they kill you if you don't have a group that understands the boss mechanics beyond "stay out of the red."

Soulshine

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Okay, so first of all, by no means do I want to offend all those 1k+ dps out there or start a flamewar, it's just something I wanted to discuss for a while. A lot of people(I'm talking dps now, though I've seen tanks and healers using these too) list their dps as one, only and final measure of their...creditability as a good player. Now I understand that dps is the easiest one to measure but way too often it seems to be mentioned as the most important thing. But...is it?

I'm not talking about Trials here since I haven't ran them myself(yet, at least), however, this attitude seems particularly common among people who do run Trials. I'm not saying ALL of these people do that, but I've had a chance to run some vet dungeon with quite a few lately and they act remarkably similar. They pull crazy high dps but tend to die during doing so. They focus on dps rather than staying alive, making my life as a healer that much more stressful and sometimes plain impossible - I CANNOT outheal ALL the damage, no matter how good I am, if they don't avoid it. I've got a few friends with whom I usually run - lately when I run with them I barely have to heal at all, I just spend most time dps'ing because they can take care of themselves(CoH aside, that one does hurt) AND put in pretty damn good dps. But whenever I run with one of these Trial-running people I have to focus on healing only(and mainly on healing this person) because their health drops crazy fast and they don't seem to worry about it - it's like they're used to just stacking on tank and being healed by healer while dps'ing in one place in Trials. I'm not saying they're so bad - they do put in really good dps, but IMO this alone isn't enough to make them good. Well, maybe in Trials, I'm not too familiar with those. But in vet dungeons, especially the Crypt, everyone has to look out for himself, and frankly, I like it that way. Makes it a bit more interesting than just mashing same buttons again and again for highest dps rotation.

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

Its not the player it's the stupid development of ESO that designed a game around DPS . Its just as bad as TOR relying on enrage timers for every single encounter. ZOS . there is a serious lack of mechanics other then exploting animations,avoiding circles and healing combined with damage reduction abilites to stand on bosses and grind them into dust for fast runs.

ZOS created this dynamic and the end game meta min maxer is only playing by the rules or lack there of that ZOS made possible or impossible unless you do it in said fashion.

What game are you playing?

The only place that straight DPS matters is in a timed trial run, and even then, it only matters when all the players are good enough with the basic mechanics of the trial that they can focus on pure damage.

Bring your "designed around DPS" philosophy to Crypt of Hearts, and you've just screwed your group over.

I tank crypt of hearts all the time , matter of fact the second to last boss you sendin 3 DPS with a off heal and kill the boss with out a healer or a tank. what about crypt of hearts is not about DPS. its primarily a AOE DPS check the whole damn run. Just an exercise in burning adds.

Trials are about avoiding or healing through mechanics with damage reduction in AA, Hel Ra is a tad different.

Even the Golem where its a heavy movement fight is about dps. Killing adds before next round repsawns, the 15 % enrage on him its all about DPS. The spider again AOE DPS and avoid big red chasing circle.

ZOS is about DPS and puddle jumping. there are no interupting bosses no silencing a mechanic no slow burns . every boss is about kill it faster then it can kill you

I have to say I agree with much of this in the sense that I have been raiding for a long time in other MMOs and find most of the mechanics in this game to be pretty boring and lackluster. They do not require the same type of diversity that I have experienced in other settings, which often makes all runs feel the same. Trials in particular where kind of a let down frankly.

I hope that there will be more actual raids in future expansions to offer more complex challenges than what we have seen so far.

xaraan

I think it varies by situation. If a group has a good tank that is keeping a lot of heat off the dps and a good healer hitting everyone, then a couple pure dps glass cannons can be great for dungeons.

My character, when I build dps, has a light armor/staff build and a stamina/bow build. I prefer the stamina/bow build for most things now with the new armor sets, but even before I preferred it when running alone because it had better survivability and mob control.

We have another guy we run with that does dps and does it well in many situations. He solo's anomalies in Craglorn very fast, can solo AA through the first boss, etc. (and he's a NB) but many other times he'll be the first to fall in a dungeon run.

Pseudonym

yiasemi wrote: »

No. Leaving the house, eating right, brushing your teeth and improving self-confidence with the sexes of your choice will be more effective in the long run.

..and pull insane damage while playing ESO.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

My Vampire Witch is a glass canon. She is actually pretty tough, good spell resistance and not bad armor, but if I can kill it, it won't hurt me.

Keeping spell damage softcapped and running quite a bit of critical is key to her survival. Of course she can snack on trash, but the big guys don't snack, and keeping them beat down is key. The ability to fairly swiftly kill a 10,000 health boss makes a huge difference in those fights. The 6,000 health mini bosses are just big resilient trash to her. Never pull out an Ultimate for them. At VR4 now and loving it.

Head.hunter

Survivability is way more important, although there are dps race situations where surviving will get you nowhere if the boss isn't below a certain hp %. The game tries to mix things up a bit so all players feel important.

I think players bragging about dps is common enough in gaming, even if it's not the absolute answer to beating the game.

JoffyToffy69

I've done a few vet dungeons, although I do more pvp, but I agree, there is nothing more annoying then people standing and simply not avoiding AoEs and similar things. Or not following leaders instructions.
Alot of people think they are 'one man army' heroes, and those are the worst people to be grouped with.
They constantly pull unnecessary mobs, wonder off from the group, and often cause healer to waste healing resources, resulting in the group wiping.

Phinix1

yiasemi wrote: »

No. Leaving the house, eating right, brushing your teeth and improving self-confidence with the sexes of your choice will be more effective in the long run.

This does not sound "edgy" or intelligent. It is a totally unnecessary TROLL comment and unrelated to anything productive either in this thread or on these forums.

I'm here to talk about an entertainment medium I pay for, when I'm not having to navigate the cesspit of nihilistic and malignant modern greed.

Soriana

Our small guild hasn't done any trials yet and, quite frankly, I'm not looking forward to finding a pug to fill in around us. We are the latter type of players described here that strategize, take it slow, and search the whole place. We'll never be on the leader boards nor do we want to be. We do want to have fun though and yelling for 'moar dps' doesn't appeal to me at all.

As to the survivability thing I can't tell you how many times I, the tanky/dps person of the group, and the healer were the last two standing to take down a boss while our dps were laying in puddles with a big ol' white cross over their heads. DPS is not the be all and end all.

poodlemasterb16_ESO

Soriana wrote: »

Our small guild hasn't done any trials yet and, quite frankly, I'm not looking forward to finding a pug to fill in around us. We are the latter type of players described here that strategize, take it slow, and search the whole place. We'll never be on the leader boards nor do we want to be. We do want to have fun though and yelling for 'moar dps' doesn't appeal to me at all.

As to the survivability thing I can't tell you how many times I, the tanky/dps person of the group, and the healer were the last two standing to take down a boss while our dps were laying in puddles with a big ol' white cross over their heads. DPS is not the be all and end all.

The entire point of both tanks and healers is to survive and heal. A poor sorc has to wear cloth, and deal damage. The point of tanks is to draw agro, from where? The damage dealer. The point of the healer is to heal the tank and the sorc.

I guess sorcs might die in your group a lot with that attitude.

yiasemi

Pseudonym wrote: »

yiasemi wrote: »

No. Leaving the house, eating right, brushing your teeth and improving self-confidence with the sexes of your choice will be more effective in the long run.

..and pull insane damage while playing ESO.

Pulling the insane has been the story of my life...

Merlin13KAGL

Magdalina wrote: »

I'm not saying high dps is bad, I just think surviveability is always more important because you can do exactly 0 dps when you're dead. I'd rather run with someone with not so high dps but good surviveability and able to look out for him/herself than marvel at crazy high dps while having to spam heals nonstop on this one person. In my eyes it's more like good players usually do good dps rather than good dps makes a good player.

So, who else thinks pure dps is overrated?

@Magdalina‌, it has its purpose, but it's not the only measure that needs to be taken into account.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

ZOS set themselves up for this, and to this day I have no idea what in Oblivion they were thinking. I mean a big leaderboard that rewards time of completion over quality of the run, and then spamming it incessantly in your chat AND mail? Seriously what the fudge?[/b][/i]

@AlienDiplomat‌, points based on quality of the run would be awesome.

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

Trust me, I have run dungeons with people that refuse to bash heavy attack windups, refuse not to stand in obvious ground effects, refuse to even attempt to follow basic, friendly instructions, and just mash their super hero rotation while the group wipes time after time due to their selfish stupidity.

I would rather take someone with a few hundred less DPS then one of these morons ANY day.

@AlienDiplomat‌, you mean people that want to die? That's always a joy.

Aeratus wrote: »

Survivability is more important, but surviving is maybe not as difficult as you make it sound to be.

If you want something that combines both survivability and dps outside of trials, the Crypt of Hears no-deaths achievement is a good test. You must survive, of course, but you have to have enough dps to break the bubble in the second phase of the last boss. In this regards, it is preferable that the tank and healer have relatively high dps in case one of the dps gets hit by the grasp move.

@Aeratus‌, indeed. There are other achievements, which can be linked in chat to be proven, that can help attest to someone's experience level in regard to dungeons, damage, and healing.

Shame that it comes down that that sometimes, but it's one option.

Bleakraven wrote: »

I think it's overrated, yes. Too bad every time I want to do a dungeon, people just rush-rush-rush to the end as fast as possible. I like taking my time, establishing tactics, trying different things. But nobody seems to have time for anything anymore and so I stopped doing dungeons. And agreed on having to babysit some people who are just so self-centered and blame the healer for not healing them when they stand in the freaking danger zones time and time again.

@Bleakraven‌, I assume you are referring to not-vet dungeons, as the run-in-and-plow-everything-down becomes significantly less effective in the Vet Dungeons. Knowledge of the mechanics are a must, and some things are bound to be more effective than others, so trying other methods definitely has its merits.

Once you group can do this, speed runs can come later.

poodlemasterb16_ESO wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

Our small guild hasn't done any trials yet and, quite frankly, I'm not looking forward to finding a pug to fill in around us. We are the latter type of players described here that strategize, take it slow, and search the whole place. We'll never be on the leader boards nor do we want to be. We do want to have fun though and yelling for 'moar dps' doesn't appeal to me at all.

As to the survivability thing I can't tell you how many times I, the tanky/dps person of the group, and the healer were the last two standing to take down a boss while our dps were laying in puddles with a big ol' white cross over their heads. DPS is not the be all and end all.

The entire point of both tanks and healers is to survive and heal. A poor sorc has to wear cloth, and deal damage. The point of tanks is to draw agro, from where? The damage dealer. The point of the healer is to heal the tank and the sorc.

I guess sorcs might die in your group a lot with that attitude.

@Soriana, The infamous FNG...Sometimes produces a gem, sometimes, a lump of rock you can't even refine. Bear in mind that everyone was the "new" guy at one point.

The roles are there for a reason. They are not absolute ~ you may have to self heal, and the healer may have to occasionally add damage, however, they are there for a reason.

And for the record, whoever has nothing to do or is nearby...well, everyone rez's, in all of the good groups I've been in. (If the tank goes down, for instance, guess what? Someone's gotta get the boss's attention while someone else brings him back!)

However, when people step outside their role too far, or when they have to because someone is not performing theirs, things deteriorate quickly.

@poodlemasterb16_ESO‌, indeed, the people still standing at the end, or the people almost still standing at the end, say alot. (Last minute death is considerably different than 1st minute death or every minute death.)

I find some amusement in the last part, often playing a Sorcerer Healer, but your point still hold true. ("Sorcerer, heal thyself." )

Armitas

Aeratus wrote: »

Survivability is more important, but surviving is maybe not as difficult as you make it sound to be.

If you want something that combines both survivability and dps outside of trials, the Crypt of Hears no-deaths achievement is a good test. You must survive, of course, but you have to have enough dps to break the bubble in the second phase of the last boss. In this regards, it is preferable that the tank and healer have relatively high dps in case one of the dps gets hit by the grasp move.

That is my favorite dungeon so far and that achievement is my last to earn...(except those for city of ash which I can't get because there seems to be no veteran city of ash. )

Crypt of hearts seems like more of a trial than the trials. The trials feel more like a zerg in pvp. It's just heal stacking, rotating negates, and dpsing in a blob...at least till the last boss in AA.

kitsinni

ZOS seems to want to add this artificial competition to every aspect of the game. I don't understand at all what their goal is with this. IMO it is a community destroying idea. I can understand leader boards in PvP and fighting for emperor and even perks for doing well with PvP but I can't understand the logic of putting this in to PvE in an RPG. Even the PvP aspect lead directly to emperor flipping because they added a skill line only the top person can get without constraints on how they actually earn it. It takes the RPG aspect out of the game and makes you feel like your playing Call of Duty or something. It seems like it is their plan to expand on this to 4 player dungeons also with dragonstar arena. Everything times, put it on a leaderboard for everyone to see spam everyone in your guild with messages about how long it took. Then they wonder why the game is turning in to an elitist game with a broken community. Now you can't even sell items unless you are in an elitist trading guild.

I thought RPG's were supposed to be about the journey and some sense of accomplishment not about how fast you can speed through content, leader boards, blind bids and special perks for the top dogs.

Xeres14

Yes doing as much DPS as you can does matter. However, dead damage dealers do 0 DPS. Sooo it's important but it's not as important as:

1. Staying alive.
2. Keeping the fight manageable. See, doing 1K DPS is good as long as the fight is under control. But should Mr. / Ms. 1K DPS draw aggro from the target they're attacking then it may not be that good. Because what happens is if the DPS draws aggro then there's a chance that DPSer may die. Then who is the target going to aggro? The tank? If you're lucky. More often it'll be the healer. Then you're in real trouble. Should the DPSer be able to drop aggro, the same thing applies. Maybe the target will aggro the tank again. But, like before, more likely it'll aggro the healer.

As my old raid leader in the game that shall not be named used to say, "DPS smartly".

poodlemasterb16_ESO

It's fairly simple. My Vampire Witch is very hard to kill. Spell resistance is always near softcap and I am at about 70% of armor softcap. I can do armor softcap at the expense of spell damage. I can get health and stamina from anything but bosses.

If I have to kite about the place to stay alive, and I will, I am good at that, I cannot deal much damage.

Capisce?

DuelWieldingCheesyPoofs

Ofc it doesn't matter, you cant do 1k dps if your dead cos you stood in fire, tactics a more important...