hummm classes??? really?

gimpdrb14_ESO

Had a random thought, lets say they got rid of the classes and you can now type in the name of your class. when creating a new character you get to pick 3 class skill trees form the ones currently available. what kind of combos can you think of?

Lynx7386

The shadowknight:
-nightblade siphoning tree
-nightblade shadow tree
-sorcerer daedric summoning tree or dark magic tree
(Utilizes self healing from the siphoning tree and shades/invisibility from the shadow tree for tanking, with either bound armor/conjured ward for extra mitigation or encase/dark exchange for extra control and longevity)

The elementalist:
-dragon knight ardent flame tree
-dragon knight earthen heart tree
-sorcerer storm calling tree
(Storm, earth, and fire, heed my call?

Lynx7386

Some more...

The Shield-Bearer:
-Dragon Knight Earthen Heart tree
-Sorceror Daedric Summoning tree
-Templar Aedric Spear tree
(All three have a damage shield in them, combine that with annulment and enough magicka regen and you could always have several shields active)

The Shaman:
-Dragon Knight Earthen Heart tree
-Templar Restoring Light tree
-Sorceror Stormcalling tree
(the idea here is that you can combine the earth shields and healing bonuses from earthen heart with templar heals, while having lightning for direct damage and mobility like a WoW shaman).

Tamanous

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

Hypertionb14_ESO

Tamanous wrote: »

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

The commented change would not be a 100% open skill system, since you would only be able to choose the 3 trees.

---

i would do

Dark Magic
Restoring Light
Earthen Heart


This would give me great options for Healing, DPS, and Tanking, as well as GREAT CC abilitys, Wonderful Support Cabability, and near endless pools of magicka in which to do it all with.

Koshchei

I like this idea, but balancing it would be utter absolute murder. Can you imagine how unkillable a hybrid tank could be?

Thechemicals

Screw trees... how about just gimme 3 skills.

Fruitmass

Yeah, classes were something I was rather disappointed with from the get go. I would have preferred a more classic Elder Scrolls approach.

Personally I felt what they should have done was allow your character to pick which attribute they wished to focus in. In turn the attribute you focused in would yield the 15 points at level up and the other two would only give 10 instead of the current set up of 15 to health and 10 to magica and stamina.

Then pick your major weapon and armor focus. You can still use other weapons and armor types but your chosen majors would level faster and/or have improved passives.

Players also should have been able to pick which skill trees they want to focus in as primary, secondary and tertiary. Primary skills leveling faster. Secondary skills leveling at normal rates. While the tertiary skill tree would have to actually be learned from an outside source somewhere in the world.

For instance if you wanted to take up Dark Magic, Daedric Summoning or Storm Calling you'd talk to a Master Wizard in any mage's guild hall. Aedric Spear, Dawn's Wrath, and Restoring light from a High Priest in any city temple. And so on.

Tertiary skills would level at normal rates and would be unmorphable, however you could always dump your tertiary skill tree and train in another one at anytime.

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

Oblivion class system, where you picked a combo of what you want and that serves as a template for the rest of the game. That was the best class system in any TES game.

Also let me have a spell in one hand and a sword in the other.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

Fruitmass wrote: »

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

Yeah. that's what happens when you design your game around a crappy, restrictive class system.

Xorpion

Spellcrafting will kill most of this "cookie-cutter" junk.

Assassination - Ambush/Impale
Shadow - Shadowy Disguise/Concealed Weapon
Storm Calling - Critical Surge

Overload Ult

This would be seriously OP in PVP

Koshchei

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

Fruitmass wrote: »

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

Yeah. that's what happens when you design your game around a crappy, restrictive class system.

Did you just call ESO's skill system restrictive? Have you actually played the game?

manny254

This would be flavor of the month x1,000

Nox_Aeterna

Personally , i would prefer that they either remove all classes or atleast that they allowed us to exchange classes with each respec.

With that said:

Aedric Spear , reason i went with the templar class , i quite like using polearms :P.
Draconic Power , giving me tanking powers and dragon leap is just cool lols
Shadow , giving me rogue like skills that i find cool , which could be handy on solo

Note , im not talking about making a strong char , probably would change them in favor of that , just a few cool skill trees.

Koshchei wrote: »

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

Fruitmass wrote: »

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

Yeah. that's what happens when you design your game around a crappy, restrictive class system.

Did you just call ESO's skill system restrictive? Have you actually played the game?

For a TES game? It is VERY restrictive.

If anything ESO is a step backwards of the great direction the TES franchise has been going for more with each game.

Orchidea

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally , i would prefer that they either remove all classes or atleast that they allowed us to exchange classes with each respec.

With that said:

Aedric Spear , reason i went with the templar class , i quite like using polearms :P.
Draconic Power , giving me tanking powers and dragon leap is just cool lols
Shadow , giving me rogue like skills that i find cool , which could be handy on solo

Note , im not talking about making a strong char , probably would change them in favor of that , just a few cool skill trees.

Koshchei wrote: »

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

Fruitmass wrote: »

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

Yeah. that's what happens when you design your game around a crappy, restrictive class system.

Did you just call ESO's skill system restrictive? Have you actually played the game?

For a TES game? It is VERY restrictive.

If anything ESO is a step backwards of the great direction the TES franchise has been going for more with each game.

But i think the point is that this game is an MMO, so in that genre, it's not restrictive.

Nox_Aeterna

Orchidea wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Personally , i would prefer that they either remove all classes or atleast that they allowed us to exchange classes with each respec.

With that said:

Aedric Spear , reason i went with the templar class , i quite like using polearms :P.
Draconic Power , giving me tanking powers and dragon leap is just cool lols
Shadow , giving me rogue like skills that i find cool , which could be handy on solo

Note , im not talking about making a strong char , probably would change them in favor of that , just a few cool skill trees.

Koshchei wrote: »

nicholaspingasb16_ESO wrote: »

Fruitmass wrote: »

It would probably be a nightmare in terms of balance but player builds would be considerably more interesting.

Yeah. that's what happens when you design your game around a crappy, restrictive class system.

Did you just call ESO's skill system restrictive? Have you actually played the game?

For a TES game? It is VERY restrictive.

If anything ESO is a step backwards of the great direction the TES franchise has been going for more with each game.

But i think the point is that this game is an MMO, so in that genre, it's not restrictive.

There are plenty of MMOs , ESO is not even close to being the one with the most open class system at all , do note , this considering only themepark MMOs like ESO and not even sandboxes...

Being a MMO is no excuse for the current class system , it is a design decision , one that is quite silly on a TES game.

Brizz

http://www.esohead.com/calculator/skills#mcMzgy9k8injI8uELc8IPUP8IPbc8uEIK8LxRA8fXGP8bzvi8IPUv8uvZi8bznn8IPwA8y7GAR3b6NR3f8g7MbsXy8F7bNzrO8P7addYw8zV7zzeCp48zf7zzNbo8zu7zzHfYE6zHfZd8zG7zzHQ3F8zI7zzJIoX6zJIkL8zN7zzJZcY8zA7zzKpUN8zL7zzK4EX

Aedric Spear - Blazing Shield, Biting Jabs
Siphoning - Siphoning Attacks, Swallow Soul, Soul Tether
Draconic Power - Dragon Fire Scale, Green Dragon Blood, Burning Talons

gimpdrb14_ESO

ok 1 thing is though you wouldnt be able to change these class skills out at all. once you hit that play button thats it you are now stuck with your choices.

Pmarsico9

LOL. I think the immediate result of this would be that maybe 2% of the player population takes Dawn's Wrath for anything lol.

Atarax

Tamanous wrote: »

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

Disagree entirely. As skill systems go, systems like TSW and the original ES games (where any character can learn all abilities) are waaaay easier to balance, lead to much less whining, and allow players more freedom.

Classes are old-school D&D mentality and lead to more issues and lack of balance than a classless system. (ex. all things remaining equal, the fact that Sorc gets higher cost reduction on abilities gives an inherent advantage over all other classes, the only way to balance is to give all classes the same cost cost reduction, the fact that Nightblade gets invis gives an inherent advantage, the only way to really balance is to give all classes access to invis, follow this train of thought, and you'll realize, the only way to really balance everything is to give all characters access to all abilities).

Anastasia

Atarax wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

Disagree entirely. As skill systems go, systems like TSW and the original ES games (where any character can learn all abilities) are waaaay easier to balance, lead to much less whining, and allow players more freedom.

Classes are old-school D&D mentality and lead to more issues and lack of balance than a classless system. (ex. all things remaining equal, the fact that Sorc gets higher cost reduction on abilities gives an inherent advantage over all other classes, the only way to balance is to give all classes the same cost cost reduction, the fact that Nightblade gets invis gives an inherent advantage, the only way to really balance is to give all classes access to invis, follow this train of thought, and you'll realize, the only way to really balance everything is to give all characters access to all abilities).

---

Triple -A/ Subscription MMO's = demi-gods/hero wanna-be's struggling through, winning some-losing some, earning their way.
Every player is not expected to be able to be everything all the time.

Modern Single player discs = Slight grade toward certain epitome of god-mode and end of player experience. (*Thats not even accounting for community mods... ^-^)
Every lone player is expected now to be everything by completion of game.

Exactly what is TESO??

Atarax

Anastasia wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

Disagree entirely. As skill systems go, systems like TSW and the original ES games (where any character can learn all abilities) are waaaay easier to balance, lead to much less whining, and allow players more freedom.

Classes are old-school D&D mentality and lead to more issues and lack of balance than a classless system. (ex. all things remaining equal, the fact that Sorc gets higher cost reduction on abilities gives an inherent advantage over all other classes, the only way to balance is to give all classes the same cost cost reduction, the fact that Nightblade gets invis gives an inherent advantage, the only way to really balance is to give all classes access to invis, follow this train of thought, and you'll realize, the only way to really balance everything is to give all characters access to all abilities).

---

Triple -A/ Subscription MMO's = demi-gods/hero wanna-be's struggling through, winning some-losing some, earning their way.
Every player is not expected to be able to be everything all the time.

Modern Single player discs = Slight grade toward certain epitome of god-mode and end of player experience. (*Thats not even accounting for community mods... ^-^)
Every lone player is expected now to be everything by completion of game.

Exactly what is TESO??

Disagree again. The frame you're creating is the frame that is typical of WoW, EQ, and most MMOs. True, most MMOs adopt this frame, but not ALL, so therefore it is not a mandatory frame. There are MMOs out there (TSW for example) that break the frame that "one character can't do everything" and, in my opinion, work better than class-based systems.

"MMO must=classes!!!" is an outdated paradigm and has been proven untrue

The system that seems to work better, again in my opinion, is "give players more freedom to design their own classes, let them do everything they want, just not all at the same time."

ESO could follow this paradigm, which would be true-er to the essence and design of the original Elder Scrolls games.

After that long-winded response, simply put, no where is it written that MMOs must have classes.

Anastasia

Atarax wrote: »

Anastasia wrote: »

Atarax wrote: »

Tamanous wrote: »

The issue with that is class identity would be shattered. The game is still pretty much a open skill system game but to take it further means you simply have players sniping the bets skills and finding 1 to 2 fotm exploit builds. ESO already tackles with this issue in it's current form. 100% open skill system would make this game a complete mess instead of the partial one it is now.

Disagree entirely. As skill systems go, systems like TSW and the original ES games (where any character can learn all abilities) are waaaay easier to balance, lead to much less whining, and allow players more freedom.

Classes are old-school D&D mentality and lead to more issues and lack of balance than a classless system. (ex. all things remaining equal, the fact that Sorc gets higher cost reduction on abilities gives an inherent advantage over all other classes, the only way to balance is to give all classes the same cost cost reduction, the fact that Nightblade gets invis gives an inherent advantage, the only way to really balance is to give all classes access to invis, follow this train of thought, and you'll realize, the only way to really balance everything is to give all characters access to all abilities).

---

Triple -A/ Subscription MMO's = demi-gods/hero wanna-be's struggling through, winning some-losing some, earning their way.
Every player is not expected to be able to be everything all the time.

Modern Single player discs = Slight grade toward certain epitome of god-mode and end of player experience. (*Thats not even accounting for community mods... ^-^)
Every lone player is expected now to be everything by completion of game.

Exactly what is TESO??

Disagree again. The frame you're creating is the frame that is typical of WoW, EQ, and most MMOs. True, most MMOs adopt this frame, but not ALL, so therefore it is not a mandatory frame. There are MMOs out there (TSW for example) that break the frame that "one character can't do everything" and, in my opinion, work better than class-based systems.

"MMO must=classes!!!" is an outdated paradigm and has been proven untrue

The system that seems to work better, again in my opinion, is "give players more freedom to design their own classes, let them do everything they want, just not all at the same time."

ESO could follow this paradigm, which would be true-er to the essence and design of the original Elder Scrolls games.

After that long-winded response, simply put, no where is it written that MMOs must have classes.

---

Appreciate your response and points Atarax. Agree there are exceptions within the MMO genre, and FULLY agree with you that some others such as you have mentioned have more than met that unique difference. I have played subscription MMO's since 1999 and since most of that experience WAS with the trinity system, I was excited to see a fresh, perhaps edgy plan to give players more freedom within the MMO construct. It literally is the reason I gave TESO even one minute of consideration, and was wooed with what appeared to be exactly what you point out.

TESO however, definitely has not met that bar. The fact that there continues to be a stam-magicka ratio problem is only one among many issues that highlight this problem.

It advertised for everyone. It drew in MMO PvEr's who were lured with reasonable soloing in the lower levels and challenging fun grouping content in the mid-to-upper level content which now has been Nerfed and has consequences to TESO PvE endgame. Then there are the PvPr's and single game enthusiasts as well who did not really get a clear overview of just how different TESO as an MMO would be as opposed to their single-player days in the old ES games. PvPr's pretty much have what was talked about for two years prior to this MMO's launch.

Just seems like instead of being loyal to the vision it created, worked on designing and launched, now ZOS has an MMO filled with players who are demanding hefty changes. Its player base is beyond fragmented. I'd love for instance to be able to have access to date which shows how many players primarily devote a bulk of their time to PvPing and/or use PvE content basically as their main means of leveling to go to Cyr as a V12. I suspect its far higher in this MMO than some may think, even though a lot left in the first months.

Though this is very anecdotal, it feels like the bulk of the player base I have met, been in guilds with, grouped with, talked with in other sites online, and have chatted with in voice-com are mainly soloers and PvPr's. They are those seeking solo gaming with a chat-room component and occasional co-op options, along with those who sincerely believe this MMO was built upon a foundation of endgame PvP-centric gameplay. Hell, if ZOS ever figures out how to provide a smoother, less laggy, less glitchy, fewer-crashes Cyr experience, the PvPr's would be so busy enjoying themselves there would be a 'swooshing' sound in the entire rest of the game.

ZOS keeps making changes that appear to the public as if they are scrambling to comply with player demands INSTEAD of being committed to its own visionary goalposts. Its path now is certainly NOT clear, nor is it able to come close at this time to encompass the exception you are enthusiastic about.

I see no plans at this point which encourage me to feel like that is the path ZOS is on either. I would be ecstatic to find my prognostication a complete failure. Even if the MMO-ness continues to be shaved and diluted here in TESO. I'd just like to see some stability and ability to meet goals and carve out a REAL, definable identity tbh. Still hoping and waiting for a bit longer.

Atarax

Reasonable post Anastasia, I agree that the player base seems to be going to war with each other more often than not. I think having classes contributes to this. I invite you to check out the forums at TSW sometime, the debates there tend to stem around which build is more effective, but very few (I can't recall any in the several months before I stopped playing) that were calling for nerfs. Why? Because calling for a nerf would just be nerfing yourself when it's possible for you to use all abilities.

Boards there seem significantly less hostile, and much more collaborative.

That said, the only feedback we have to go on for what's planned for ESO is what's been published so far, which is along the lines of "minor, incremental, changes."

I think spellcrafting will at least allow people more freedom in creating builds and may mitigate some of the gaps between at least casting builds. Unfortunately, the stamina / magicka divide will still be there as you rightly point out.

So, not only do they have class divides, but build divides to deal with. Very complex, so I don't expect that they'll solve this over night, and I'm enjoying the game quite a bit, so I'm happy to stick around while they do.

For the record, I'd planned to PVP extensively, but am focused mostly on solo PvE content at the moment until I've completed it all. Then I'll balance the two out as new content gets added.

Overall though, I think they have a solid base to work from Tweak a few things like the following, and they'll be very successful:
-all abilities available to everyone if they invest enough time
-stabilize pvp
-Add Thieve's guild and dark brotherhood (along with other guilds or skill lines over time); which is already planned
-Ensure that stamina builds are on a par performance / flexibility wise with magicka builds (they're working at it, give them time)
-Make Heavy an equally attractive alternative to the other armors (the recent addition of stamina and magicka regen when getting hit is actually a significant move in that direction, it helped a lot when soloing or tanking in heavy)
-Once Veteran ranks are removed, and champion ranks added, make it so all of the zones for Cadwell's Silver and Cadwell's Gold are available, and player can do them in any order they want (giving you more of the ESO open-world feel).

If they implement all of that, and keep adding new content, I think we'll all have very little room to complain.

Koensol

Anyone who seriously thinks you can just go ahead and combine 3 class trees and thinks that is balanced, really needs to wake up. The class trees are separated for a very good reason. To make this idea work there would need to be a complete re-balancing of all skills. If you cannot see this you are very short-sighted and egoistic.

Xnemesis

No and for one reason only.... When it comes to endgame you will have to use the said 5 best abilities in the game with the bis gear sets or GTFO. It would ruin endgame hands down. Classes give players a sense of individualism and purpose. Tanks will have one build that the elites say they have to use and then the same would apply for a healer and dps. I vote no 10000x.... pls no.

Great idea in concept, however their is no possible way to make it work.

Nox_Aeterna

Koensol wrote: »

Anyone who seriously thinks you can just go ahead and combine 3 class trees and thinks that is balanced, really needs to wake up. The class trees are separated for a very good reason. To make this idea work there would need to be a complete re-balancing of all skills. If you cannot see this you are very short-sighted and egoistic.

Xnemesis wrote: »

No and for one reason only.... When it comes to endgame you will have to use the said 5 best abilities in the game with the bis gear sets or GTFO. It would ruin endgame hands down. Classes give players a sense of individualism and purpose. Tanks will have one build that the elites say they have to use and then the same would apply for a healer and dps. I vote no 10000x.... pls no.

Great idea in concept, however their is no possible way to make it work.

Except this is exactly the way it goes , but WITHIN one class.

This argument that people will use the same X skills is already what happens , but with each player doing so stuck into one class.

So templars should have Y skills , NB Z skills...

Nothing change other than you create unbalance and an illusion of variation by forcing players into it.