Templar Magicka Management

jrgray93

So how do you feel about templar magicka management? It seems to be one of the primary complaints about the class, and I tend to agree with the assessment that some changes are needed. Some might argue that templars don't need the magicka management because they have access to additional healing abilities that other classes lack, and while I can see that point having some merit, I don't fully agree.

The way I see it, templars should have access to at least some kind of moderate magicka regeneration, although not as much as NBs and Sorcerers currently have (can't say for DK, but it looks to me like they don't have a comparable ability either?). Templar heals are very costly and often inefficient. They are great for burst heals, but you really have to watch them or you'll go OOM in no time.

So, I've thought about it a bit and I have some ideas to bounce around for how to balance out this situation.

First off, there is Rune Focus / Channeled Focus. Currently, Channeled Focus will regenerate magicka, but only enough to barely negate the cost of the spell, and only if you remain in it for the duration. This magicka regeneration is all but pointless, but I feel like this is a good area to address the magicka issue. I simply suggest that the magicka regeneration of Channeled Focus be applied to every version of the spell, while Channeled Focus just triples the value. This would make standing in the focus actually restore some magicka rather than refunding what you already spent. Also, if triple sounds too much, keep in mind that that is only 15 per second.

I think Rune Focus is a good place to find the templar's staple regeneration ability, like how Sorcerers have Dark Exchange and Nightblades have Siphoning Strikes. In each case, there is a downside to getting your regeneration, For the templar, that means being limited to a small area of movement or forfeiting your regeneration.

Secondly, there is Honor the Dead. This restores magicka while healing low health allies. At max rank, I believe it restores 72% of the spell cost. This seems great, but it does not stack. It simply refreshes. So healing multiple times, as you may often find yourself doing, will tank your magicka significantly. I thought it would be better to cut the regeneration amount by 5%, reducing it to 62% regenerated, but increase the required health to under 60% and allow the regeneration not to stack, but to be additive. So say I had four seconds left when I triggered it again. Instead of refreshing to eight and losing out on two ticks, it would increase to 12. The result is no waste and a solid, steady stream of regeneration.

Why not just let Honor the Dead stack? It would be insanely overpowered in PVP for one thing. A templar could just spam the heal whenever their health was low, becoming invincible, short of being hit by CC effects. Lowering the return and cutting waste would make it a much better sustained option, fair through-and-through.

Sotha_Sil

I'm going to answer to your post by adding two suggestions.

1°) Another suggestion for Rune Focus, aside from being a larger zone, :
I think it should be a placable zone that you can apply on yourself or your team members.

2°) About magicka management : mana is not the problem - changing breath of life

In my opinion, the magicka management problem with the templar comes from the fact that we can basically heal with Breath of life and spam it and we are required to do it sometimes because of hard hits people get.

I think breath of life is making it "too easy" for templars and should be nerfed or improved in the way that it resplenishes full life for a lowest health ally or an ally of your choice instead of healing 3 allies. But this would add a CD time and/or a very high mana cost.



With those 2 changes, healing would start to be really interesting and a bit more challenging spicing up the templar gameplay making it more fun to play.

bgoldbeck21_ESO

Wait for update 3 to come out and you will be able to build your gear for high magicka regen when they raise the soft cap much higher.

Lynx7386

They really should just change honor the dead to "This spell costs no magicka if it heals allies under 50% health" and channeled focus to "This spell no longer costs magicka". You'd essentially be doing the same thing they do already, it'd just be a little more friendly to work with.


As far as actual magicka management, there's one change I think would solve the templar's problems: Make restoring aura, radiant aura, and repentance restore magicka and stamina instead of magicka and health. There's no reason the auras need to restore health, it's redundant with our healing abilities.

Srugzal

No mention of Magicka restore with Resto Staff heavy attack. No mention of self-heal through Puncturing Sweep. No mention of racial/armor or other magicka regen strategies (potions, food, jewelry, and on and on). The problem is, that the solution to resource management is never just within a single class skill line. It's always a combination of different things which work together. So I think it's somewhat wrong headed to pose this as a "Templar" problem.

kitsinni

I just use the resto staff an almost never have problems healing. In fact it is far easier than any of those other classes that have regen available.

jrgray93

Srugzal wrote: »

No mention of Magicka restore with Resto Staff heavy attack. No mention of self-heal through Puncturing Sweep. No mention of racial/armor or other magicka regen strategies (potions, food, jewelry, and on and on). The problem is, that the solution to resource management is never just within a single class skill line. It's always a combination of different things which work together. So I think it's somewhat wrong headed to pose this as a "Templar" problem.

Not really. Those tools are universal and they help to an extent. Plus self healing has nothing to do with what I am discussing. The problem is, those tools take too much time and aren't always effective, whereas NBs and sorcerers have much more powerful magicka management tools at their disposal.

Francescolg

1. Do not think that the higher soft caps of any future patch are going to help your templar. IMO, they help more DPS-Classes. The less-well-off Classes will not benefit as much as a pure DPS class, that gets round abound 25% better stat values (not the exact number). They rase many caps, whereas basic healing will not be buffed that much as, just for example, the bonuses from set-items
2. Breath of Life's base healing already matches MANY DD-skills of other classes or heals less (not talking about ultimates). So one Breath of Life = one and two-half nullified DD skill. ~600 INSTA HEAL IS NOT OP, and nowhere near OP (I remember mages in PvP chain-hitting me for 1200 dmg at hard capped magic armor...), any many other inc-dmg that was not healable/debuffable in time!
3. If players do not spec for healing-debuff (weapon enchant, special skills, or maybe passives) it is THEIR PROBLEM.. ! It is nowhere an OP Templar! It is just nuubs that forget about utility-spells / debuffs and defensive spells. They don't count for me

Stx

There has to be a trade off somewhere... Templar heals are far stronger than Resto staff heals, they are basically the only direct heals in the game. Templars also have purifying ritual which is amazing, the only direct healing ultimate, and blazing shield which is awesome for survival.

You can't have it all... NB's and Sorc's have better sustainability, but they have to heal over time... Templars can burst heal, but they lack sustain. I don't see the problem.

You can cap magicka, mag. regen, use buffed up restoration potions, resto heavy attack, and with proper management, that should be more than enough.

jrgray93

I disagree. I don't find templar heals to be overly impressive in comparison to restoration staff heals, except perhaps in PVP. Blessing of Protection provides a small burst with an added bonus, and Steadfast Ward is arguably better than any burst heal there is. There already is a tradeoff in that templar burst heals are very inefficient. Then there's Healing Ritual, which I don't even use because the cast time results in dead party members. Honestly, I didn't even start using my templar heals until the mid 40s, save for Lingering Ritual.

kitsinni

Personally I love templar heals.

Breath of Life - How else do you direct heal multiple people that are not right in front of you. Reality is in this game people end up spreading and you can't always hit them with blessing of protection

Lingering Ritual - For groups larger than a 4 man one of the best heals imo. You can hit a large amount of people with this and then they get a bonus heal after 8 seconds.

Purifying Ritual - AE heal, removes dots from self and gives all the people in it a way to remove dots and get a heal

Practiced Incarnation - no other healing ultimate in game. Heals a lot for a good amount of time. Can really help on boss fights, sieges etc.

jrgray93

I love them too, I'm just saying they aren't inherently OP in comparison to restoration staff heals.

david.haypreub18_ESO

This is a good thread, with some constructive ideas. I hope the developers are reading (because the changes they made to Templars so far are not very good).

The central, basic problem with the Templar class is that their abilities cost too much (relative to what other classes have) and that Templars can't sustain them due to poor mana management.

This problem began in beta, when the Templar passive Restoring Spirit was nerfed. This is what broke the class, and it hasn't been fixed since (see: http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/1zwa6u/an_in_depth_look_at_the_restoring_spirit_nerf/ )

After literally months of Templars being subpar, the developers finally acknowledged the problem. Their response was to buff Biting Jabs, which really didn't get at the central problem. The problem was NOT that Biting Jabs didn't do enough damage... the problem was that it cost a lot and that it could not be sustained due to poor mana management, due to the Restoring Spirit nerf.

The change to Sun Shield will help a bit, but it is not getting at the root of the problem (and in some ways even making it worse for Templars that don't want to run Sun Shield).

As for fixes, I agree with Lynx: make Restoring Aura restore magicka rather than health. Templars already have a ton of spells to restore health. We need magicka, not health.

I would not like to see channeled focus restore magicka, because that would be far more of a buff to ranged Templars (who don't have to chase their opponents around like melees do). Lord knows this game does not need to buff ranged and nerf melee anymore.

Humor

I'm still trying to figure out how so many Templars, or players have this problem. It's almost like they never heard of socketing your armor with Magicka Enchantments, and plain and simple; using food to boost your Magicka. Those two things alone will pretty much guarantee you never run out of mana, provided you're not trying to spam heal everyone you see.

While playing in a group, if your group doesn't know how to dodge, or block, that's not the Templars fault in any which way. People should already know healing requires vast amounts of Magicka, and shouldn't be stupid enough to stand in the way, or face tank every single attack out there.

From beginning to VR2 with my Templar, doing dungeons and everything, I've had absolutely no problem managing my Magicka, whether it be healing for group play, or soloing as a DPS build.

Food is your very best friend in this game, that goes without saying for every class you choose to play as.

And as other people mentioned before hand, using a Restoration staff also increases your mana gain by quite a bit with the heavy attacks. If you're healing in dungeons, by no means should you be spending your mana on anything else BUT healing. If you're trying to do DPS as a healing Templar, then expect to run out of Magicka quickly, and not be able to save team mates.

Point is, there's so many ways that you're able to waste less Magicka, while at the same time regenerating it as fast as you spend it.

One example I'll point out, is all my Jewelry has "Cost Less Magicka" enchantments equipped. That alone reduces more than 30 Magicka per skill used.

Of course, this is just my opinion. I personally have no problems with the Templar, but hey, if they decide to make playing one that much easier, I have no problems with that either.

Nox_Aeterna

Stx wrote: »

There has to be a trade off somewhere... Templar heals are far stronger than Resto staff heals, they are basically the only direct heals in the game. Templars also have purifying ritual which is amazing, the only direct healing ultimate, and blazing shield which is awesome for survival.

You can't have it all... NB's and Sorc's have better sustainability, but they have to heal over time... Templars can burst heal, but they lack sustain. I don't see the problem.

You can cap magicka, mag. regen, use buffed up restoration potions, resto heavy attack, and with proper management, that should be more than enough.

Good then please remove their DPS.

Cause you know , they have a much better dps than the templars AND you are trying to balance how we heal compared to each other.

Therefore there is no balance at all , they are just better some things AND they are still something to consider in all the others.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

I'm going to answer to your post by adding two suggestions.

1°) Another suggestion for Rune Focus, aside from being a larger zone, :
I think it should be a placable zone that you can apply on yourself or your team members.

2°) About magicka management : mana is not the problem - changing breath of life

In my opinion, the magicka management problem with the templar comes from the fact that we can basically heal with Breath of life and spam it and we are required to do it sometimes because of hard hits people get.

I think breath of life is making it "too easy" for templars and should be nerfed or improved in the way that it resplenishes full life for a lowest health ally or an ally of your choice instead of healing 3 allies. But this would add a CD time and/or a very high mana cost.



With those 2 changes, healing would start to be really interesting and a bit more challenging spicing up the templar gameplay making it more fun to play.

This would be terrible. That's just nerfing temp heals to the point of no return. Currently when I dedicated heal I only use two templars and the rest staff. Under your guidance it would be 100% staff. Don't forget that endgame is in fact an important factor and pve groups are 12 and PvP can be up to 24. Emergency heals simply can never be to efficient because of self healing infinitly. breath of life hitting 2 for half of the first is what makes it good I tested honor dead but went back to breath because ultimantly a single target heal is basically dead skill in a large group.
A Templar healer should never have magics problems. Use a restore staff to have more heal options and use spell symmetry.

Tankqull

Humor wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure out how so many Templars, or players have this problem. It's almost like they never heard of socketing your armor with Magicka Enchantments, and plain and simple; using food to boost your Magicka. Those two things alone will pretty much guarantee you never run out of mana, provided you're not trying to spam heal everyone you see.

While playing in a group, if your group doesn't know how to dodge, or block, that's not the Templars fault in any which way. People should already know healing requires vast amounts of Magicka, and shouldn't be stupid enough to stand in the way, or face tank every single attack out there.

well the problem aint beeing able to manage your magicka or not but beeing as effective as other classes while juggling your magica.
and the root of the problem simply is the beta changes, spellcost increasement of 20-25% to balance restoring spirit, and nerfing restoringspirit by 95% 2 day before release without adjusting the former changed spellcost.

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO

jrgray93 wrote: »

I disagree. I don't find templar heals to be overly impressive in comparison to restoration staff heals, except perhaps in PVP. Blessing of Protection provides a small burst with an added bonus, and Steadfast Ward is arguably better than any burst heal there is. There already is a tradeoff in that templar burst heals are very inefficient. Then there's Healing Ritual, which I don't even use because the cast time results in dead party members. Honestly, I didn't even start using my templar heals until the mid 40s, save for Lingering Ritual.

The range is a very important factor, in trials two templars can spam spell sym breath of life the whole mage fight and hit everyone who are so spread out, then change tactic for the stacking part. The range is very valuable especially when making it almost free with spell sym, at the cost of health and no self heal debuff.

jrgray93

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

jrgray93 wrote: »

I disagree. I don't find templar heals to be overly impressive in comparison to restoration staff heals, except perhaps in PVP. Blessing of Protection provides a small burst with an added bonus, and Steadfast Ward is arguably better than any burst heal there is. There already is a tradeoff in that templar burst heals are very inefficient. Then there's Healing Ritual, which I don't even use because the cast time results in dead party members. Honestly, I didn't even start using my templar heals until the mid 40s, save for Lingering Ritual.

The range is a very important factor, in trials two templars can spam spell sym breath of life the whole mage fight and hit everyone who are so spread out, then change tactic for the stacking part. The range is very valuable especially when making it almost free with spell sym, at the cost of health and no self heal debuff.

Well, my experience is more limited to 4 man dungeons, where using spell sym is actually a risk. Big picture requires looking at all situations.

Srugzal

jrgray93 wrote: »

Srugzal wrote: »

No mention of Magicka restore with Resto Staff heavy attack. No mention of self-heal through Puncturing Sweep. No mention of racial/armor or other magicka regen strategies (potions, food, jewelry, and on and on). The problem is, that the solution to resource management is never just within a single class skill line. It's always a combination of different things which work together. So I think it's somewhat wrong headed to pose this as a "Templar" problem.

Not really. Those tools are universal and they help to an extent. Plus self healing has nothing to do with what I am discussing. The problem is, those tools take too much time and aren't always effective, whereas NBs and sorcerers have much more powerful magicka management tools at their disposal.

Hmmm. "those tools take too much time and aren't always effective" Explain what you mean here, specifically, what tools, compared with what. My magicka regen is always at or near soft cap, as a Templar, and, supplementing with potions, I'm very seldom OOM, unless I don't execute properly. Hey, nobody's perfect. I also don't spam magicka abilities, either. Do I don't find magicka management all that difficult.

Don't get me wrong, if there really is an issue, I'd certainly like to see it addressed. I just don't see it in my own play. I don't rely on magicka for everything, either... like your hypothetical sorc does.

Braidas

still a problem zos