The justice system - Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood

GnatB

timidobserver wrote: »

The only thing about the justice system that can't be worked around is people that want to be able to acquire recipes and motifs but don't want to be pvp'd on when they fail an attempt. Everything else can be solved.

Fix'd.

Marcusstratus

-marcusstratu's wife speaking-

Kcttocs wrote: »

All the guys that don't like it, then don't commit the crime silly, easy as pie.

It might be that easy, and that would be nice. It really depends on how it's all implemented.

I'm still personally concerned about accidental crimes. Considering how easy it was in Skyrim to end up with some guard darting in front of you or getting the edge of an AOE spell while you tried to take down the vampires at a city gate. I'm very concerned that you could easily end up with the nightmare of accidental murder if NPCs in towns are killable, and in ESO you can't just reload. I'd be too afraid to try to catch a criminal running around in a city myself if I could end up hitting a guard or innocent NPC bystander in the process - so now I've got a bounty on my head too, and I can't just explain that it was an accident and no hard feelings...

It also seems like it would be easy to accidentally steal something, considering how sometimes I'll end up opening a crate behind someone I'm trying to talk to, or automatically hitting 'take all' because I got distracted when I didn't actually want that potato...only now it's not just a matter of destroying it if I just stole it. In real life you can't steal something because your thumb twitched, however in a game like this....

And as I said in another thread, what happens when your cat decides to jump on your keyboard? or your coffee spills and your mouse gets knocked to the floor and now you've drawn your weapon and fired in the wrong direction? Of course that's not happening all the time, but things like that are definitely a possibility and I'm not looking forward to dire consequences in game because of real life accidents. And yes, I know this kind of accident can get you killed in a dungeon too, but to me that is different than having other players hunting you down or having a huge fine when you did not intend to commit a crime.

I'd like a double check question when it comes to stealing where you'd have to confirm you really want to steal this before actually taking it. There was a mod that did that in Skyrim which I loved! Similarly, I'd like a toggle on/off option to make friendly NPCs targetable or not...if that's possible, so I actually wouldn't have to worry about it if I didn't want to do it. My point is that accidents happen and I'll feel a lot more comfortable with the justice system if there are some safeguards in place to help prevent crime that isn't actually intentional.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Fair, but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.

At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.

PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.

I agree.

I like feeling relaxed inside cities after a hard evening battling daedra out in the forest. I'm not really keen on massive streetfights and pandemoneum due to PVP pursuit of a player criminal on the streets of Skywatch or Shornhelm - especially not if it's a frequent occurrence.

nicholaspingasb16_ESO

I hope to god that being a member of the Dark Brotherhood or Theives Guild FORCES you to actually break the law and FORCES you into the justice system.

Royalroacho

I don't intend this to be snarky, but i feel like we dont know enough about this to be complaining about it yet.

Anastasia

Marcusstratus wrote: »

-marcusstratu's wife speaking-

Kcttocs wrote: »

All the guys that don't like it, then don't commit the crime silly, easy as pie.

It might be that easy, and that would be nice. It really depends on how it's all implemented.

I'm still personally concerned about accidental crimes. Considering how easy it was in Skyrim to end up with some guard darting in front of you or getting the edge of an AOE spell while you tried to take down the vampires at a city gate. I'm very concerned that you could easily end up with the nightmare of accidental murder if NPCs in towns are killable, and in ESO you can't just reload. I'd be too afraid to try to catch a criminal running around in a city myself if I could end up hitting a guard or innocent NPC bystander in the process - so now I've got a bounty on my head too, and I can't just explain that it was an accident and no hard feelings...

It also seems like it would be easy to accidentally steal something, considering how sometimes I'll end up opening a crate behind someone I'm trying to talk to, or automatically hitting 'take all' because I got distracted when I didn't actually want that potato...only now it's not just a matter of destroying it if I just stole it. In real life you can't steal something because your thumb twitched, however in a game like this....

And as I said in another thread, what happens when your cat decides to jump on your keyboard? or your coffee spills and your mouse gets knocked to the floor and now you've drawn your weapon and fired in the wrong direction? Of course that's not happening all the time, but things like that are definitely a possibility and I'm not looking forward to dire consequences in game because of real life accidents. And yes, I know this kind of accident can get you killed in a dungeon too, but to me that is different than having other players hunting you down or having a huge fine when you did not intend to commit a crime.

I'd like a double check question when it comes to stealing where you'd have to confirm you really want to steal this before actually taking it. There was a mod that did that in Skyrim which I loved! Similarly, I'd like a toggle on/off option to make friendly NPCs targetable or not...if that's possible, so I actually wouldn't have to worry about it if I didn't want to do it. My point is that accidents happen and I'll feel a lot more comfortable with the justice system if there are some safeguards in place to help prevent crime that isn't actually intentional.

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Fair, but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.

At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.

PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.

I agree.

I like feeling relaxed inside cities after a hard evening battling daedra out in the forest. I'm not really keen on ****>>>>massive streetfights and pandemoneum due to PVP pursuit of a player criminal on the streets of Skywatch or Shornhelm<<<<**** - especially not if it's a frequent occurrence.

---

I don't know if it will be frequent, but if its possible its sure as hedoubleL gonna be done! Not to mess with YOU, but for the excitement/fun etc. What you describe is literally exactly what some other players think would be erhm...the cats' meow !

If its all controlled and orderly and err...planned (*ie a guide will be written and put up online for those of the herd to 'follow'), well then, that's just typical PvE which one can find any day in TESO's cradle to heavens gate ...
Levels 1 - Vet+ 12 solo-centric PvE content, right?

CenturionExplorer

Although im mainly a PvE player beacuse of my low rank, i get absolutely slaughtered in Cyrodiil, and that is in fact my biggest concern of them all with the Justice system, i really hope they put some kind of level restriction on.

To prevent a Veteran rank going on a massacre against level 10-30 players.

But else i agree, it is after all an MMO and Zeni have been very kind to us Elder Scrolls fans who are used to the single player adventure.

And personally, i wouldn't mind to see some more PvP outside Cyrodiil

Archaole

Concerning the bits about the possibilities of criminals running towns, this is where RP players can really shine.

Just like they have vamp, WW, alliance, gender specific guilds, I'm hoping there will be Dark Brotherhood and Thieves' Guild inspired guilds (if there aren't already), and thus with those creations, come guard guilds!

Enodoc

Marcusstratus wrote: »

My point is that accidents happen and I'll feel a lot more comfortable with the justice system if there are some safeguards in place to help prevent crime that isn't actually intentional.

Safeguards would be useful. A couple of possible implementations: guards could have NPC-killing disabled so they don't actually kill them by accident. And/or, one could only commit a crime while sneaking (i.e., you cannot steal and cannot murder NPCs unless you are sneaking).

Tannakaobi

Royalroacho wrote: »

I don't intend this to be snarky, but i feel like we dont know enough about this to be complaining about it yet.

Exactly my point..

Hamfast

First, let me agree with the person that said it all depends on the implementation, as for the rest, we are just guessing or hoping. That Matt told me at QuakeCon that they were not planning to allow Duels until they were confident that there would be no griefing, I must assume they are working for the same thing with the justice system...

As was also pointed out, the mage and fighter guild quests don't add much to the guild standing, but lets look at the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood...

The Thieves Guild could have quests to get an item (or set of items), but not just stealing... Same with the Dark Brotherhood, They will want assassinations, but not killings, because in both cases, they will want opposition killed or cleaned out not friends, supporters or protection paying people.

Nocturnalfox

Don't care.
Open PvP should always exist and not be an issue.
If the dark brotherhood gives you a mission "go kill such and such player, last seen here" then you follow the clues and kill the player, even while they are questing I think its ok.
It also encourages people to quest in teams, you know like an ACTUAL MMO....
If soloable is how you want to do it that's fine, but it should carry inherent risks.

My position is clear, not quite open PVP, limited but functional. So if you go around being a ***, stealing stuff, killing people in quests, looting chests before helping your team, being greedy, doing bad things, the DB send somebody after you to carry out their mission.

Of course being greedy and a ne'er do well plays into the thieves guild- so it levels out sort of.
I would go as far to say the option and ability to form a bandit group to go out and rob players (not the ability to take equipped items, but most of the stuff you will loot and leave in your inv till visit town).

Tannakaobi

Nocturnalfox wrote: »

I would go as far to say the option and ability to form a bandit group to go out and rob players (not the ability to take equipped items, but most of the stuff you will loot and leave in your inv till visit town).

I agree with much of what you say, however ^^ In principle I'm not against this idea, but I don't feel that it has a place in ESO. The reason is because it's please everyone type game and there is no PVP/PVE servers. It would be abused and many players would leave because of it.

WraithAzraiel

Don't care, I just want the armors.

If you don't want to play a guard, don't play a guard. If you don't want to get murderfaced by someone PLAYING a guard. Pay your taxes or stealth everywhere.

Gasgiant

Honestly I don't see a benefit on forcing anyone into doing anything in a game. After all it is a game, and as many people have pointed out that the upcoming justice system is entirely optional, so too is all of ESO. You don't need it to eat, to breathe, or to sleep. In that spirit I don't see the point of making something just one way. Give players choices and you will always have more players than not. And if as a developer you want something used more one way than another, appeal to the one thing that is universally constant between practically all types of players.

Greed.

In many cases that is what most of the arguments have been about regarding this system. Rename it, call it what ever you want; risk/reward, hunting for mats, farming for motifs, etc. The fact of the matter is it is all greed in some way shape or form on the part of the player no matter what side of the fence said player happens to be on.

If you give choices, but want your player base to utilize a system in a preferred way, then you appeal to their greed and reward the preferred method more than other options. Its worked in other games, it could just as easily work here.

Persephonius

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Obviously many people are unhappy that they may be forced into PVP or miss out on the justice system. Other people are delighted that they will finally have a small amount of open world PVP.

A quick question to the people that don't want to PVP.

If the justice system had little to do with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood, meaning that you could still enjoy the PVE elements in these guilds would the PVP justice system still bother you?

Say the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood were set out like the Mage and fighters guild with a PVE driven story, but then on the side you had 'jobs' that lead onto PVP and the justice system and the option to just kill and steal for the heck of it. Would that still be such a problem?

So little is known about these things and I can't help think that people are jumping the gun a little. Time will tell I guess, I can't wait myself.

I think a system that would resolve this issue is to introduce PvP flags for players. A player can set there PvP flag to 'off' and then would not be able to participate in the activities (stealing) that would lead to open world PvP, and would not be able to be 'ganked' while questing. If you set your PvP flag to 'on', then you can participate in activities leading to open world PvP. Ofcourse it would need to be made so that once you turn your flag on and initiate a PvP orientated action (stealing), you cannot turn it off until everything has been resolved.


*edit* However I just realized, the act of stealing itself is basically like turning your PvP flag on. So this system is already imbedded in the justice system is it not?

*Further edit* I just re-read the opening post, and just realized that the OP was indicating that the PvE quests of the dark brother-hood and thieves guild would force you participate in PvP action. I thought that it would likely be NPC guards that you would need to worry about when doing the dark brother-hood and thieves guild quests, and any under the table activites you engage in outside of those quest-lines would lead to possible open world PvP?

Gasgiant

One thing that I believe we have been told is that there will be a threshold. Simply stealing some old woman's sweetroll won't flag you. One NPC assault or murder might not even flag you. It's the repeated commission of these crimes, and then subsequent refusal to pay one's bounty or inability to do so, that would then flag you.

So you would literally have to run though town brazenly thieving and killing to flag yourself, and keep your flag up for PvP.

This is speculation on my part now, but seeing as how all of the thieving and assassination worked in the single player games, there will probably be TG and DB passives that limit your exposure to PvP in some way shape or form. IE: safe-house access, bribes, fences, increased diminishing of your bounty.

jamie.goddenrwb17_ESO

Royalroacho wrote: »

I don't intend this to be snarky, but i feel like we dont know enough about this to be complaining about it yet.

100% nailed it.

Persephonius

Just remembering what that was like in the single player series. You would enter a city and all the guards would attack you. So I imagine that when you enter a city that you have an outstanding bounty in, every other player will be able to attack you You would be toast . But.... and a big but. If they do that and you have an outstanding bounty in lets say one of the starting islands where everyone is level 1-5, and you are veteran rank 12.......

Ok there is a potential issue. Players that do not wish to be involved in open world PvP may succumb to higher level players running around with bounties killing other people? I don't want that I don't think.

*edit* Ok after doing some reading, I think the system is that you have to join the city guard in order for you to participate in PvP with the criminally inclined. This would mean that players with bounties will not be able to engage anyone, only players that are in the city guard, so there will be no lowbie gank fests

sebbe_orggb16_ESO

timidobserver wrote: »

Easy enough solution.
The grinding option is the PVP option. You can grind thieves guilds levels by stealing and potentially being subjected to pvp. However, you also have the option to quest and do other non-pvp things for levels. Same for the assassins guild.

The only thing about the justice system that can't be worked around is people that want to be able to steal but don't want to be pvp'd on when they fail an attempt. Everything else can be solved.

Just pay your bounty and you will get unflagged, simple as that right?

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

MercyKilling wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Actually , when these guilds get out , the number of criminals lvling this will be so big , that the player guards will probably not cut it.

And this is just ONE of the possibilities this can be used to grief other players.

what possibilities exist in the post you quoted to grief people?

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.

I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.

Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.

And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.

But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.

Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.

At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.

I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.

But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.

With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.

Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.

That may be so, but we do know a little which is:

- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.

I fail to see a problem.

All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above

Well , i dont claim to know what is best really.

But im guessing that if we return to your first post and assume that you could do the entire DB and thieves guild quests + lvl the tree with 0 risk of being atked in a PvP manner without huge issues because of it , then the amount of complain will not be much of a problem.

The issue here is quite simple ,many PvE players are quite sensitive when it comes to PvP. Some of them are not wiling to have anything to do with it unless it is in a controled space , reason you see on many themepark MMOs with PvE and PvP servers.

Many of those PvE servers usually have tons of players.

While this is true, pvp servers are usually those at Full

That said, I always played on PVE RP servers and even there I was punished if I did a pvp appropriate quest or zone.

I don't know any MMO that totally eliminated any type of PVP even on their PVE servers. The good thing with the justice system is the choice, just like on a pure PVE server.

Players can enjoy their peaceful environment if they want, but as soon they attack they have to accept the consequences. It just cant be that some players are somehow immune to a punishment, while others are not. Imagine the amount of griefing that such a system would create.

PVE players will farm peacefully and gain stuff, while others suffer the consequences of their behavior at all times.

I find it hard to understand how this can even be in peoples mind. Just imagine, you raid someone in Stormwind and he cant fight back - this is just so broken

In my opinion the PVE crowd (only some of them obviously) have the special snowflake syndrome. They want the same rewards and benefits as those who go into pvp - that's not how its going to work however.

We had that same discussion about the achievements, then about Dyes and now about the new guilds. In my opinion people should just accept that this is an MMO which offers several aspects of gameplay.

I will never become an Emperor, so should I now cry that I want to become one by slaying NPCs? I don't think so and the same applies to those that cry now.

Just like there are plenty of full PvE servers usually also , so i dont see you point :P.

Yeah here is the thing , PvP should be limited to cyro, now it is starting to leak outside there , there is no PvE servers , so PvE players are forced to to be near it since the start , if this annoys them , to not say involve them in some way , the solution is literally quit the game at that point.

Dyes/achivs are one thing , thieves and DB guilds probably will not be passable by so many. In the end , it is true , if a player want something they must do the content related to it , but that doesnt mean they will want to do it.

If players refuse to PvP and the thieves/DB guilds require it , many will just skip them , that could be the difference to many into quitting or not the game.

Still , apparently ESO is heading to a more middle ground , where the devs try to mix both PvP and PvE , players that want a experience focused on only one will probably all quit the game not so long after thegame finishes its road ahead.

why should it be limited to cyrodiil? As was said in an earlier post, pve'rs have gotten so much, way more than pvp'rs. Why shouldn't we get something? Is it a distate for sharing with others? Why would you think that pvp'rs should not have the ability to experience new pvp content?

pvp'rs HAVE to pve to get vr12 effectively. You don't HAVE to pvp to get the things you want, at least within reason. But for pvp'rs, it is mandatory. Seems like it's about time we were thrown a bone.

I mean the skill line Undaunted is an entirely pve skill line. Emperor is not easily attainable to the average pvp'r, on the other hand, and we have no other skill line of our own.

Gix

People fail to realize that the PvP only happens if you refuse to pay the bounty.

It's not like "Oh crap! I was caught stealing an Apple!" **DEAD**

If you're caught, the guards will get you. You either pay the fine or you fight. That's how it's been in all of the TES games I've played (In fact, it's worse in Morrowind. I stole something from the Mages guild and they proceeded to kick my ass instead of calling for the guards.) If you don't pay the bounty, you have a chance to run away but the guards will be set to Kill on Sight.

That's when other players join in on the hunt. The PvP only happens if you're Kill on Sight.

I don't see how this is unreasonable.

Persephonius

Gix wrote: »

People fail to realize that the PvP only happens if you refuse to pay the bounty.

It's not like "Oh crap! I was caught stealing an Apple!" **DEAD**

If you're caught, the guards will get you. You either pay the fine or you fight. That's how it's been in all of the TES games I've played (In fact, it's worse in Morrowind. I stole something from the Mages guild and they proceeded to kick my ass instead of calling for the guards.) If you don't pay the bounty, you have a chance to run away but the guards will be set to Kill on Sight.

That's when other players join in on the hunt. The PvP only happens if you're Kill on Sight.

I don't see how this is unreasonable.

Yes I agree. It is only unreasonable if you can do something, (murder steal) that then enables you to attack any other player anywhere. If this was the case, it would be heavily abused. I can imagine night blades setting up camp and sheathed in populated cities one shotting anyone and everyone with focused aim because they themselves have a bounty and not the players they are targeting. But I doubt it will be the case.

Tannakaobi

double post

Tannakaobi

Persephonius wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

People fail to realize that the PvP only happens if you refuse to pay the bounty.

It's not like "Oh crap! I was caught stealing an Apple!" **DEAD**

If you're caught, the guards will get you. You either pay the fine or you fight. That's how it's been in all of the TES games I've played (In fact, it's worse in Morrowind. I stole something from the Mages guild and they proceeded to kick my ass instead of calling for the guards.) If you don't pay the bounty, you have a chance to run away but the guards will be set to Kill on Sight.

That's when other players join in on the hunt. The PvP only happens if you're Kill on Sight.

I don't see how this is unreasonable.

Yes I agree. It is only unreasonable if you can do something, (murder steal) that then enables you to attack any other player anywhere. If this was the case, it would be heavily abused. I can imagine night blades setting up camp and sheathed in populated cities one shotting anyone and everyone with focused aim because they themselves have a bounty and not the players they are targeting. But I doubt it will be the case.

[/quote]

But that would be open world PVP. The one thing they have said it will not be. Very little is known, but what is know is it will not be open world PVP and it will be optional.

Persephonius

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Persephonius wrote: »

Gix wrote: »

People fail to realize that the PvP only happens if you refuse to pay the bounty.

It's not like "Oh crap! I was caught stealing an Apple!" **DEAD**

If you're caught, the guards will get you. You either pay the fine or you fight. That's how it's been in all of the TES games I've played (In fact, it's worse in Morrowind. I stole something from the Mages guild and they proceeded to kick my ass instead of calling for the guards.) If you don't pay the bounty, you have a chance to run away but the guards will be set to Kill on Sight.

That's when other players join in on the hunt. The PvP only happens if you're Kill on Sight.

I don't see how this is unreasonable.

Yes I agree. It is only unreasonable if you can do something, (murder steal) that then enables you to attack any other player anywhere. If this was the case, it would be heavily abused. I can imagine night blades setting up camp and sheathed in populated cities one shotting anyone and everyone with focused aim because they themselves have a bounty and not the players they are targeting. But I doubt it will be the case.

But that would be open world PVP. The one thing they have said it will not be. Very little is known, but what is know is it will not be open world PVP and it will be optional.

Ah yeah, I put a post script edit on my posts in this thread a few days ago when I read more about it.

Gasgiant

One thing I notice in a lot of people's description of how they argue the system is as if simply taking a 1g sweet roll is going to flag you for PvP. Which I would be fine with, if they gave me the option of going to the loo and not washing my hands, and then touching all the sweet rolls in the merchant's inventory. I didn't actually steal anything thus, no PvP, but then every sweet roll that merchant has would then have the descriptive text added to it: "Upon closer inspection something seems amiss with this pastry."

Lionxoft

Will finish getting my Nightblade to VR12 tomorrow. Watch your backs.

Nox_Aeterna

smeeprocketnub19_ESO wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Tannakaobi wrote: »

Nox_Aeterna wrote: »

Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.

I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.

Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.

And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.

But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.

Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.

At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.

I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.

But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.

With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.

Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.

That may be so, but we do know a little which is:

- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.

I fail to see a problem.

All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above

Well , i dont claim to know what is best really.

But im guessing that if we return to your first post and assume that you could do the entire DB and thieves guild quests + lvl the tree with 0 risk of being atked in a PvP manner without huge issues because of it , then the amount of complain will not be much of a problem.

The issue here is quite simple ,many PvE players are quite sensitive when it comes to PvP. Some of them are not wiling to have anything to do with it unless it is in a controled space , reason you see on many themepark MMOs with PvE and PvP servers.

Many of those PvE servers usually have tons of players.

While this is true, pvp servers are usually those at Full

That said, I always played on PVE RP servers and even there I was punished if I did a pvp appropriate quest or zone.

I don't know any MMO that totally eliminated any type of PVP even on their PVE servers. The good thing with the justice system is the choice, just like on a pure PVE server.

Players can enjoy their peaceful environment if they want, but as soon they attack they have to accept the consequences. It just cant be that some players are somehow immune to a punishment, while others are not. Imagine the amount of griefing that such a system would create.

PVE players will farm peacefully and gain stuff, while others suffer the consequences of their behavior at all times.

I find it hard to understand how this can even be in peoples mind. Just imagine, you raid someone in Stormwind and he cant fight back - this is just so broken

In my opinion the PVE crowd (only some of them obviously) have the special snowflake syndrome. They want the same rewards and benefits as those who go into pvp - that's not how its going to work however.

We had that same discussion about the achievements, then about Dyes and now about the new guilds. In my opinion people should just accept that this is an MMO which offers several aspects of gameplay.

I will never become an Emperor, so should I now cry that I want to become one by slaying NPCs? I don't think so and the same applies to those that cry now.

Just like there are plenty of full PvE servers usually also , so i dont see you point :P.

Yeah here is the thing , PvP should be limited to cyro, now it is starting to leak outside there , there is no PvE servers , so PvE players are forced to to be near it since the start , if this annoys them , to not say involve them in some way , the solution is literally quit the game at that point.

Dyes/achivs are one thing , thieves and DB guilds probably will not be passable by so many. In the end , it is true , if a player want something they must do the content related to it , but that doesnt mean they will want to do it.

If players refuse to PvP and the thieves/DB guilds require it , many will just skip them , that could be the difference to many into quitting or not the game.

Still , apparently ESO is heading to a more middle ground , where the devs try to mix both PvP and PvE , players that want a experience focused on only one will probably all quit the game not so long after thegame finishes its road ahead.

why should it be limited to cyrodiil? As was said in an earlier post, pve'rs have gotten so much, way more than pvp'rs. Why shouldn't we get something? Is it a distate for sharing with others? Why would you think that pvp'rs should not have the ability to experience new pvp content?

pvp'rs HAVE to pve to get vr12 effectively. You don't HAVE to pvp to get the things you want, at least within reason. But for pvp'rs, it is mandatory. Seems like it's about time we were thrown a bone.

I mean the skill line Undaunted is an entirely pve skill line. Emperor is not easily attainable to the average pvp'r, on the other hand, and we have no other skill line of our own.

@smeeprocketnub19_ESO

Actually outside emperor that gives good buffs forever to the player , reason so many made the emp trades.

You also get the assault and defense trees.

So there are 3 pure PvP trees.

It should limited to cyrodill because many player are directly against PvP , not all of them will join any system that uses it at all. So if you make easy to fall into PvP by the justice system , there , you just cut part of your playerbase from using said system.

Reason from what we heard zen is adding a limit and people will only be forced into PvP if they cross it. This way they can avoid 100% of the PvP and in theory still take part of the justice system in this format.

If you keep PvP and PvE apart you will keep certain types of players , if cross them you will keep others. When the justice system leak PvP out of cyro that will start to drift away pure PvE players way from the game that is for sure , how much deppends on how this system works AND how future things like the DB/Thieves guilds work for example.

Now mind you , im not talking about only PvE here. The reason many PvP players quite the game was also exactly because they felt cornered into PvE. In the end like i said , the more you mix , the more you make those that wanted only one side of the experience quite, but i do think PvE player are far more averse to PvP than PvP players are to PvE.

There is also the fact that people try to grief others over ANYTHING in this game ... i mean really anything , even i didnt think they would go as far as griefing others over a dye station , a dye station. So there is reason for one to be concerned over the implementation of a something like the justice system.

In the end , it remains to be seen how this system will actually work.

PS: Sorry , i didnt even notice your post till right now , so many threads it is hard to keep track of what is said where.

Tabbycat

You have to amass a higher bounty than you can afford to pay before you can even be flagged to be killed. If you just stick to petty thievery, I don't think you are going to get that high of a bounty. If you run through Wayrest killing every NPC you can, then yes, you are going to get flagged.

Your crimes are limited to the region you're in. You have to incur a high enough bounty to get flagged (meaning you can't pay it off). If you are Wayrest's most wanted for murder and flee to Daggerfall... they don't care what you did in Wayrest.

So yes, you can still run around stealing stuff. Even if you get caught for stealing, as long as it's not a whole lot, you'll just get fined and lose your stolen items. If you are on a murder spree, expect to have to pay for it with your life.