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The justice system - Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood
Tannakaobi
✭✭✭✭✭
Obviously many people are unhappy that they may be forced into PVP or miss out on the justice system. Other people are delighted that they will finally have a small amount of open world PVP.
A quick question to the people that don't want to PVP.
If the justice system had little to do with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood, meaning that you could still enjoy the PVE elements in these guilds would the PVP justice system still bother you?
Say the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood were set out like the Mage and fighters guild with a PVE driven story, but then on the side you had 'jobs' that lead onto PVP and the justice system and the option to just kill and steal for the heck of it. Would that still be such a problem?
So little is known about these things and I can't help think that people are jumping the gun a little. Time will tell I guess, I can't wait myself.
A quick question to the people that don't want to PVP.
If the justice system had little to do with the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood, meaning that you could still enjoy the PVE elements in these guilds would the PVP justice system still bother you?
Say the Thieves guild and Dark Brotherhood were set out like the Mage and fighters guild with a PVE driven story, but then on the side you had 'jobs' that lead onto PVP and the justice system and the option to just kill and steal for the heck of it. Would that still be such a problem?
So little is known about these things and I can't help think that people are jumping the gun a little. Time will tell I guess, I can't wait myself.
3
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Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.Edited by Tannakaobi on July 29, 2014 3:05AM9 -
ShedsHisTail✭✭✭✭✭
✭They better require law breaking to advance at least, I've got 25,000g riding on it. :-)"As an online discussion of Tamrielic Lore grows longer, the probability of someone blaming a Dragon Break approaches 1." -- Sheds' Law
Have you seen the Twin Lamps?1 -
timidobserver✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Easy enough solution.
The grinding option is the PVP option. You can grind thieves guilds levels by stealing and potentially being subjected to pvp. However, you also have the option to quest and do other non-pvp things for levels. Same for the assassins guild.
The only thing about the justice system that can't be worked around is people that want to be able to steal but don't want to be pvp'd on when they fail an attempt. Everything else can be solved.V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)1 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Currently i would say the odds are in favor of the guards by a large amount , but with those 2 guilds we can expect some passives to help stealth and so on that might bring balance to everything.
The simple fact is , in cyrodiil stealth may help you , since the field is huge , but anything other than a NB is not going to hide from you up close. So that is cutting 3 classes right now in small rooms.
In the end , we are also assuming people will play nice and all that , for some reason most people seem to talk like this would be an issue to resolve player to player.
Zen never said anything about that , you could literally get a LOT of criminals that decide to close a city to lvl their skills and kill any guard that tries to bother them , NPC or player and so on.
Actually , when these guilds get out , the number of criminals lvling this will be so big , that the player guards will probably not cut it."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
Azzuria✭✭✭✭✭If the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood do NOT require theft and murder I will be dearly disappointed.
By their very nature, both organizations are outside the law so leveling their rep should -require- flouting the law.Brunhilda Icehammer - Nord Dragonknight, 'Smith & Enchantress 'What is 'ranged? I need to hit something!!'
Laehl Direthorn - Bosmer Nightblade, Purveyor of fine Clothes, Bows and Staves
Reeza gra-Zuni - Orc Templar 'War Shaman' and Apothecary
Noemi Snowpaw - Kajiit Dragon Knight - I laugh... or I'd have to kill you.
Kitera Dreamon - Breton of The Dominion: Because those Daggers don't appreciate a great Mage.
Lysara Shadowcroft - Dunmer Bloodmage: This will only hurt a lot.6 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Actually, Nightblades don't have a particular advantage over anyone, as our invisibility breaks when we perform any action.
The people who will have an advantage will be medium armor types and vampires.----
Murray?1 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭If the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood do NOT require theft and murder I will be dearly disappointed.
By their very nature, both organizations are outside the law so leveling their rep should -require- flouting the law.
Of course, but there is no reason that the theft and murder that you will be doing will be tied into the justice system. It may or may not be so. I would hope that they put a little bit more story than just jobs though. The thieves guild story in Skyrim was one of the best stories in all tes games in my opinion.Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Here is another question, is being killed once or twice by a player really that bad?
I mean, people would be happy for a guard to do it, but because it's a player...
Also, as pointed out you need to run dungeons for other guilds. Do players not also get you killed in these dungeons? Like a poor healer.
4 -
nerevarine1138✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tannakaobi wrote: »If the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood do NOT require theft and murder I will be dearly disappointed.
By their very nature, both organizations are outside the law so leveling their rep should -require- flouting the law.
Of course, but there is no reason that the theft and murder that you will be doing will be tied into the justice system. It may or may not be so. I would hope that they put a little bit more story than just jobs though. The thieves guild story in Skyrim was one of the best stories in all tes games in my opinion.Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Here is another question, is being killed once or twice by a player really that bad?
I mean, people would be happy for a guard to do it, but because it's a player...
Also, as pointed out you need to run dungeons for other guilds. Do players not also get you killed in these dungeons? Like a poor healer.
That's the part that baffles me, too. I can't figure out why you would hate the idea of a player being the one to catch you so much more than an NPC guard. Except for the whole part where people know that the player will be better at catching you... oh, hang on, I figured it out.----
Murray?4 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭nerevarine1138 wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »If the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood do NOT require theft and murder I will be dearly disappointed.
By their very nature, both organizations are outside the law so leveling their rep should -require- flouting the law.
Of course, but there is no reason that the theft and murder that you will be doing will be tied into the justice system. It may or may not be so. I would hope that they put a little bit more story than just jobs though. The thieves guild story in Skyrim was one of the best stories in all tes games in my opinion.Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Here is another question, is being killed once or twice by a player really that bad?
I mean, people would be happy for a guard to do it, but because it's a player...
Also, as pointed out you need to run dungeons for other guilds. Do players not also get you killed in these dungeons? Like a poor healer.
That's the part that baffles me, too. I can't figure out why you would hate the idea of a player being the one to catch you so much more than an NPC guard. Except for the whole part where people know that the player will be better at catching you... oh, hang on, I figured it out.
It's kind of what I'm thinking too.
For me other players being involved makes it better and more interesting, thieving is so easy in the other tes games that it becomes pointless.4 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Well if you consider that pretty much every skill line is about pve only so far, then I don't see the problem with new skill lines being a bit more focused on pvp.
You need to not only look at your own needs, but also at those of the pvp community.
They had to do a lot of pve and never had a choice, so I am sure they would appreciate a skill line which isn't like all the others already and lets them advance in it by just doing pvp.
I am honestly not sure why so many people are that intolerant, its the first pvp addition - an addition we still know so less about and already now people complain about pvp and try to deny a tiny bit of content those who need it most atm.
just sad I think.
Personally, I wont become a thief and will play my role as a guard most likely, for me it doesn't matter if I have to pvp then - its an MMO and the good thing about those is that many things are there to discover and the pvp aspect is just one of those and I don't mind a bit of a variety either.6 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tannakaobi wrote: »If the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood do NOT require theft and murder I will be dearly disappointed.
By their very nature, both organizations are outside the law so leveling their rep should -require- flouting the law.
Of course, but there is no reason that the theft and murder that you will be doing will be tied into the justice system. It may or may not be so. I would hope that they put a little bit more story than just jobs though. The thieves guild story in Skyrim was one of the best stories in all tes games in my opinion.Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Here is another question, is being killed once or twice by a player really that bad?
I mean, people would be happy for a guard to do it, but because it's a player...
Also, as pointed out you need to run dungeons for other guilds. Do players not also get you killed in these dungeons? Like a poor healer.
Dunno , i have not seen the system yet , it will really deppend on how it is done.
If they can really make it grief free , then just going down a few times might not set PvE players off , but if they make a mistake in this then they will be probably looking at an issue that NPCs would not have created.
It is not the same dying because your group member is bad or made a mistake and because another player came and killed you.
Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor1 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.3 -
Kcttocs✭✭✭I look forward to hunting down in PVE my self, and even being the one hunted. I imagine it will be similar to skyrim. You won't get the bounty dead or alive unless you commit a heinous crime such as murdering some NPC, I really doubt stealing is going to warrant a high bounty dead or alive. I would also hope that if there are no witness to the murder then you also won't get the bounty. Thats why I can't wait to do some of the Dark Brotherhood quests, go kill this NPC and try not to get caught. Really looking forward to this. All the guys that don't like it, then don't commit the crime silly, easy as pie.4 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.
Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.
At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.
I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.
But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.
With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.
Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.
Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.
At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.
I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.
But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.
With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.
Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.
That may be so, but we do know a little which is:
- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.
I fail to see a problem.
All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above4 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.
Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.
At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.
I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.
But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.
With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.
Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.
That may be so, but we do know a little which is:
- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.
I fail to see a problem.
All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above
Well , i dont claim to know what is best really.
But im guessing that if we return to your first post and assume that you could do the entire DB and thieves guild quests + lvl the tree with 0 risk of being atked in a PvP manner without huge issues because of it , then the amount of complain will not be much of a problem.
The issue here is quite simple ,many PvE players are quite sensitive when it comes to PvP. Some of them are not wiling to have anything to do with it unless it is in a controled space , reason you see on many themepark MMOs with PvE and PvP servers.
Many of those PvE servers usually have tons of players."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
Tannakaobi✭✭✭✭✭@Nox_Aeterna
Agreed, and this is partly why ESO are tip toeing around the issues being very careful in what they add and when.
It would have to be said that so far when you consider it is a mixed realm they have done a stella job of mixing PVP and PVE. Which is why I think people are jumping the gun a little. But it would also have to be said that some more small scale PVP is needed. Not everyone will like it, so an optional function tied to a justice system seems like a fitting solution.
Some people will say, 'but I want to do the justice system without PVP' and maybe that will be an option. It it's not then that is hard luck. The kind of hard luck that means I can't simply have open world PVP. *** for tat you may say.
3 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Tannakaobi wrote: »@Nox_Aeterna
Agreed, and this is partly why ESO are tip toeing around the issues being very careful in what they add and when.
It would have to be said that so far when you consider it is a mixed realm they have done a stella job of mixing PVP and PVE. Which is why I think people are jumping the gun a little. But it would also have to be said that some more small scale PVP is needed. Not everyone will like it, so an optional function tied to a justice system seems like a fitting solution.
Some people will say, 'but I want to do the justice system without PVP' and maybe that will be an option. It it's not then that is hard luck. The kind of hard luck that means I can't simply have open world PVP. *** for tat you may say.
Indeed , we cant be sure of how it is going to work yet , we only have the idea and how they wanted it to work last time , they could change it again even after they launch it.
So im waiting to see it.
If they can deliver their promises , where if you dont join either side nothing can happen to you and that important NPCs wont be disrupted , i will consider a good start."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor0 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »
Actually , when these guilds get out , the number of criminals lvling this will be so big , that the player guards will probably not cut it.
And this is just ONE of the possibilities this can be used to grief other players.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1 -
Audigy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.
Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.
At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.
I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.
But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.
With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.
Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.
That may be so, but we do know a little which is:
- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.
I fail to see a problem.
All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above
Well , i dont claim to know what is best really.
But im guessing that if we return to your first post and assume that you could do the entire DB and thieves guild quests + lvl the tree with 0 risk of being atked in a PvP manner without huge issues because of it , then the amount of complain will not be much of a problem.
The issue here is quite simple ,many PvE players are quite sensitive when it comes to PvP. Some of them are not wiling to have anything to do with it unless it is in a controled space , reason you see on many themepark MMOs with PvE and PvP servers.
Many of those PvE servers usually have tons of players.
While this is true, pvp servers are usually those at Full
That said, I always played on PVE RP servers and even there I was punished if I did a pvp appropriate quest or zone.
I don't know any MMO that totally eliminated any type of PVP even on their PVE servers. The good thing with the justice system is the choice, just like on a pure PVE server.
Players can enjoy their peaceful environment if they want, but as soon they attack they have to accept the consequences. It just cant be that some players are somehow immune to a punishment, while others are not. Imagine the amount of griefing that such a system would create.
PVE players will farm peacefully and gain stuff, while others suffer the consequences of their behavior at all times.
I find it hard to understand how this can even be in peoples mind. Just imagine, you raid someone in Stormwind and he cant fight back - this is just so broken
In my opinion the PVE crowd (only some of them obviously) have the special snowflake syndrome. They want the same rewards and benefits as those who go into pvp - that's not how its going to work however.
We had that same discussion about the achievements, then about Dyes and now about the new guilds. In my opinion people should just accept that this is an MMO which offers several aspects of gameplay.
I will never become an Emperor, so should I now cry that I want to become one by slaying NPCs? I don't think so and the same applies to those that cry now. Edited by Audigy on July 29, 2014 5:22AM6 -
GasgiantSoul ShrivenI personally don't care about the rewards aspect of it. The rewards will be what the rewards will be, I'm not even going to argue that at this point. But more to the OP.
Lets say for the sake of argument that both The Dark Brotherhood and The Thieves Guild had PvE only story lines just like the existing Fighters and Mages guilds do. There is one question then. (This could have been brought up already, but I will freely admit I did not read the entirety of this thread, because I have already read almost twenty pages from threads concerning this and I am getting a headache.)
Will the tasks involved in the story line be enough to level the respective guild skill lines all the way?
They weren't for either Mage's or Fighter's. After I completed both, I still had several ranks to go. As normal use of the skills from either grants little or no XP toward their completion. For the fighters guild one had to kill Daedra, for the Mages Guild it was finding books. With that in mind it would stand to reason that completion of the Story of either guild would only get you so far. Completion of their respective skill lines would follow the same design choice as the existing guilds. Thieves Guild requiring you to steal in order to rank up, and Dark Brotherhood requiring assassination to rank up.
It would then stand to reason that you are then in the same conundrum as before, just to a lesser extent. Do you engage in the side quests with possible PvP ramifications? Do you just use the Justice System to grind out thefts and assassinations to rank up? Or do you simply decide you are satisfied with the progress you have made thus far and find something else to do?0 -
Slaunyeh✭✭✭I don't really have a problem with the proposed system, and some story-based PvE stuff related to the guilds would be neat (honestly, I didn't realize this is a strictly open-world-PvP feature. Is that really true?)
What does give me nervous ticks, however, is the idea of a "murder NPCs" system. I mentally imaging walking into Wayrest to find every single quest NPC bleeding out in the street.
How can that not go horribly wrong?
(So in short: looking forward to seeing what the final system will look like.)2 -
Enodoc✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
For proper consistency between guilds, their story should not affect their skill level at all. Completing the quests has no bearing on guild skill rank.They weren't for either Mage's or Fighter's. After I completed both, I still had several ranks to go. As normal use of the skills from either grants little or no XP toward their completion. For the fighters guild one had to kill Daedra, for the Mages Guild it was finding books. With that in mind it would stand to reason that completion of the Story of either guild would only get you so far. Completion of their respective skill lines would follow the same design choice as the existing guilds. Thieves Guild requiring you to steal in order to rank up, and Dark Brotherhood requiring assassination to rank up.
In fact, it works in reverse for Mages and Fighters. You have to reach Rank 1/2/3/4/5 in those guilds' skill lines to get the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th guild story quest. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood should be the same.UESP: The Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages - A collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series since 1995
Join us on Discord - discord.gg/uesp0 -
Nox_Aeterna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Will give an example with boardgames since my friends love to play , some we play in coop everyone against the board , some other we play against each other.
I actually win more often in the everyone against it each other , still i trully dislike playing these and often just refuse to play , i dont mind competing in coop with my friends against the board and losing any amount of times because of a mistake one of us made on the other hand.
Even if i both cases another player is the reason i lost , the ending result is just not the same.
And this is where you and I differ so very much, which is fine. Going back to ESO, this is the point. There is so much PVE and so little one on one PVP. It really is time they added some.
But this is the thing, I have not even so much as been into Craglorn. I already know it is not for me, but not once have I criticized it. Not once. PVE players should have their thing, but now it's my turn to get something I will like and all I hear is criticism.
Fair , but people usually get this way when they feel someone is entering their space.
At the start most thought PvP would be in cyrodiil , doing whatever they want in there , not outside , even less that PvP would be pretty much required on both the thieves and the DB guilds.
I think PvP players should get their chances to kill one another , they like it heh.
But im against giving PvE players to PvP player so they can just kill them. PvE players just dont want to PvP many times , forcing them into it is not the right way to go.
With all this said , we have yet to see how it works , there is a good chance players will just walk into big groups and crush one another.
Again , there is no rule saying 1 guard x 1 criminal. They could walk in big groups to be safe and kill anything in the way of that belongs to the enemy.
That may be so, but we do know a little which is:
- It will be some PVP, but not what they call 'open world'
- It will be optional and no one will have to do it.
I fail to see a problem.
All I can see is a bunch of people, (and I don't mean you) saying, it's not fair. They are putting optional PVP into ESO which is already 95% PVE based. It's not fair. They then try and come up with all these reasons as to why it will be bad that go against what we do know already. See above
Well , i dont claim to know what is best really.
But im guessing that if we return to your first post and assume that you could do the entire DB and thieves guild quests + lvl the tree with 0 risk of being atked in a PvP manner without huge issues because of it , then the amount of complain will not be much of a problem.
The issue here is quite simple ,many PvE players are quite sensitive when it comes to PvP. Some of them are not wiling to have anything to do with it unless it is in a controled space , reason you see on many themepark MMOs with PvE and PvP servers.
Many of those PvE servers usually have tons of players.
While this is true, pvp servers are usually those at Full
That said, I always played on PVE RP servers and even there I was punished if I did a pvp appropriate quest or zone.
I don't know any MMO that totally eliminated any type of PVP even on their PVE servers. The good thing with the justice system is the choice, just like on a pure PVE server.
Players can enjoy their peaceful environment if they want, but as soon they attack they have to accept the consequences. It just cant be that some players are somehow immune to a punishment, while others are not. Imagine the amount of griefing that such a system would create.
PVE players will farm peacefully and gain stuff, while others suffer the consequences of their behavior at all times.
I find it hard to understand how this can even be in peoples mind. Just imagine, you raid someone in Stormwind and he cant fight back - this is just so broken
In my opinion the PVE crowd (only some of them obviously) have the special snowflake syndrome. They want the same rewards and benefits as those who go into pvp - that's not how its going to work however.
We had that same discussion about the achievements, then about Dyes and now about the new guilds. In my opinion people should just accept that this is an MMO which offers several aspects of gameplay.
I will never become an Emperor, so should I now cry that I want to become one by slaying NPCs? I don't think so and the same applies to those that cry now.
Just like there are plenty of full PvE servers usually also , so i dont see you point :P.
Yeah here is the thing , PvP should be limited to cyro, now it is starting to leak outside there , there is no PvE servers , so PvE players are forced to to be near it since the start , if this annoys them , to not say involve them in some way , the solution is literally quit the game at that point.
Dyes/achivs are one thing , thieves and DB guilds probably will not be passable by so many. In the end , it is true , if a player want something they must do the content related to it , but that doesnt mean they will want to do it.
If players refuse to PvP and the thieves/DB guilds require it , many will just skip them , that could be the difference to many into quitting or not the game.
Still , apparently ESO is heading to a more middle ground , where the devs try to mix both PvP and PvE , players that want a experience focused on only one will probably all quit the game not so long after thegame finishes its road ahead."Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
-Hanlon's razor2 -
cuz_mike200✭✭✭I'm so excited for the justice system along with the new guilds but I am not sure about open world PvP anywhere else but Cyrodiil0 -
TehMagnus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭It is very likely that the thieves and Dark brotherhood will have a quest PVE storyline like Mage's & Fighter's guild.0 -
One thing about the justice system is that if you are a guard or thief for that matter you will most likely patrol your own alliances or steal from them. Making enemies within your alliance, which is kind of counterproductive if you ask me.
What I propose would be that as long as you are in your alliance zone you can advance through capturing NPC's etc.
When you go to another alliance zone, you get the option to attend the pvp functions. For example lets say you are a member of the pact. In Pact controlled zones it will be strictly PvE.
But you could venture to daggerfall and choose to be a thief. Most goodies should be available at VR zones anyways. Of course if you are a criminal in Daggerfall the Pact authorities shouldnt really care.
But then you venture to Aldmeri, and now you have the option to become a thief again and steal stuff or perhaps be a guard.
I know this sounds messy but I think the alliances should stick together within the alliance. Afterall those pointy ears Aldmeri treehuggers are the real enemies.0 -
Anastasia✭✭✭✭Nox_Aeterna wrote: »Tannakaobi wrote: »Nox_Aeterna wrote: »The issue is , while the quest will be probably a PvE thing , i bet the lvling of the guild skill lines , will be using the justice system , just like the fighters guild ask you to kill dremora and the mages guild asks you to collect the books.
In the end , people are still bound to it by the skill trees.
Ofc , this is assuming how it will work , but it does seem to me logical.
If that is the way it is done. Which it most probably will be in my opinion, you will still only be flagged for PVP if you get a bounty.
So... Don't get caught! Am I right?
I don't think it unreasonable to assume that you could max out the skill lines having never had a PVP fight.
No idea , but i would assume it is not as easy as people keep talking like it is.
Currently i would say the odds are in favor of the guards by a large amount , but with those 2 guilds we can expect some passives to help stealth and so on that might bring balance to everything.
The simple fact is , in cyrodiil stealth may help you , since the field is huge , but anything other than a NB is not going to hide from you up close. So that is cutting 3 classes right now in small rooms.
In the end , we are also assuming people will play nice and all that , for some reason most people seem to talk like this would be an issue to resolve player to player.
Zen never said anything about that , you could literally get a LOT of criminals that decide to close a city to lvl their skills and kill any guard that tries to bother them , NPC or player and so on.
Actually , when these guilds get out , the number of criminals lvling this will be so big , that the player guards will probably not cut it.
This or something like it!
>>>"...could literally get a LOT of criminals that decide to close a city to lvl their skills and kill any guard that tries to bother them , NPC or player and so on."
*Nods - it used to be called PLAYER CREATED CONTENT in oldschool MMO's!
1 -
GasgiantSoul Shriven
For proper consistency between guilds, their story should not affect their skill level at all. Completing the quests has no bearing on guild skill rank.They weren't for either Mage's or Fighter's. After I completed both, I still had several ranks to go. As normal use of the skills from either grants little or no XP toward their completion. For the fighters guild one had to kill Daedra, for the Mages Guild it was finding books. With that in mind it would stand to reason that completion of the Story of either guild would only get you so far. Completion of their respective skill lines would follow the same design choice as the existing guilds. Thieves Guild requiring you to steal in order to rank up, and Dark Brotherhood requiring assassination to rank up.
In fact, it works in reverse for Mages and Fighters. You have to reach Rank 1/2/3/4/5 in those guilds' skill lines to get the 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th guild story quest. Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood should be the same.
The quests themselves might not have given XP toward completion, but the tasks within the quests did. Killing Daedra during fighters guild quests still got you skill line XP, and finding books during mages guild quests did the same. Just like with any other quest. So it would stand to reason that killing an assassination target during a DB quest would still give skill XP as would any theft involved in thieves guild quests, even if they are solely PvE based or done using the justice system.2