Am i a bad healer?

Beesting

Hi, yesterday i was doing blessed crucible with three tanks. I was the healer.
It is a very chaotic dungeon with lots of hard hitting bosses and the fire beetles.
After we got wiped twice i received a lot of swearing from a pug member and that made me think:

Am i a bad healer? Should i never attack any mobs in a dungeon?

I am level 49 and have been a healer since level 20, so it is pretty much maxed out. I am a DK woodelf with light armor, mages stone, magica enchants on all pieces.
My magica regen is overcharged at 70, i am vamp with supernatural recovery etc.

On my bar i have rapid regeneration, combat prayer and quick siphon. (And green dragon blood and burning talons for emergencies) bar 2 is flame with pulsar etc for normal questing.

The thing is that the bosses always seem to attack me first. Especially when i open with quick siphon cast on the boss.

I have been confused because i have the pasives essence drain 2/2 en cycle of life 2/2 and do a heavy attack on bosses and ads all the time. Seemed like a good idea.

And i read that eso is different from other mmo's, mobs attack everyone, not just the tank.
In the blessed crucible last night two of them cam after me, while the other two were fighting the three tanks. Not very nice.

Any advice? Should i just open with rapid regeneration, count to 16, apply it again, and add combat prayer every 8 secs?
I think my magica regen can sustain it without using my purple restoration staff with a purple magica drain enchant on it for the heavy attack.

I know i can just go and do the dungeon again and try it out, but the results may vary, so i thought i would ask you guys and girls some advice.
Thanks

Raash

Maybe bad, maybe not good. Perhaps even horrible. Hard to tell when I wasnt there.

mips_winnt

Beesting wrote: »

The thing is that the bosses always seem to attack me first. Especially when i open with quick siphon cast on the boss.

The threat mechanics in this game seem very odd but it's possible you're opening up on bosses a bit too early and/or you're getting too close during the initial pull, might want to try to lay off and lay back a bit for a second or two to let your tank get aggro (e.g. hit 'em with a puncture to establish threat and give the tank a second to position the boss).

Beyond that if you're trying your best and learning from your mistakes then no you're not a "bad" healer, try to have fun while you're doing it and ignore the people that give you a hard time, it's a game after all and healing can be a tough role to fill much of the time.

Happy Hunting!

icengr_ESO

na. I'm a healer as well. and healing in this game isn't like other games. other games. healers heal everyone while they are standing in the worst of things. this game is different. as a healer you can't heal through everything. people must get out of the way. and it's almost necessary that everyone have a self heal of some kind. your purple staff is your best and easiest source of magicka if you don't attack with it you will be seriously low on magicka. and yea in situations like that you are going to be attacked. this a different game. you can't have everyone just stand there and "dps" and expect the healer to heal through everything. there is movement and cc that everyone can do. a little luck always helps too.

DenverRalphy

Beesting wrote: »

Hi, yesterday i was doing blessed crucible with three tanks. I was the healer.
It is a very chaotic dungeon with lots of hard hitting bosses and the fire beetles.
After we got wiped twice i received a lot of swearing from a pug member and that made me think:

Just a stab in the dark... but the bolded was probably more of an issue than your healing abilities.

LariahHunding

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Beesting wrote: »

Hi, yesterday i was doing blessed crucible with three tanks. I was the healer.
It is a very chaotic dungeon with lots of hard hitting bosses and the fire beetles.
After we got wiped twice i received a lot of swearing from a pug member and that made me think:

Just a stab in the dark... but the bolded was probably more of an issue than your healing abilities.

I agree. They probably had the attitude that they should have been able to stand in the red forever and survive. And three tanks can't hold most of the aggro, they must suck at tanking.

Got to have DPS to burn down stuff as fast as possible. Rather have 3 dps than 3 tanks any day. Most dungeons are a race to the death, you or the mobs.

Some fights in this game are "survivor-based" like Molag Bol, but most are kill the other guy before they kill you.

moxiesauce

use igneous shield, gives a 6 second buff to healing, farm for barrier and consider ward ally. I heal on my dk it's really fun, imo igneous shield is a must it's what makes dk heals stand out

* i found no use in quick siphon, on my bar I have combat prayer, igneous shield, healing springs, mutigen, ward ally, ulti war horn (ulti I get barrier) (use molton armor or banner if you have nothing in PvP) I am a V12 DK, built for every role, Tank, mage,melee, heals

Xnemesis

If you guys cleared it then you were good enough and nobody should complain

Neyephe

Really depends, I heal on a templar and on a sorc, so I've had good and bad experiences with both. On the sorc, it is very important that people are infront of me or all grouped up, or they risk not getting healed since heals from the staff are directional or in a limited area. If the other players were spread out or moved away from you, then it was their fault, not yours. You should not be expected to chase people down to heal them. If they were standing in the red, it was their fault, not yours. You cant heal stupid.

Templars are a little easier to heal with as they have spells that dont require party members to be in front or in close proximity.

If you have good mana regen and dont seem to run out of magicka, then the fact you had 3 tanks and no dps should not matter too much, unless the boss berserks or something like that.

crislevin

hard to judge, but grand healing is really needed. It stacks and if you can get all the group member inside the range, the cost is reduced by almost 100. So it will be cheap and effective.

You will have to attack to regen magicka, so I don't think you can stay back all the time. But do stay back first to avoid aggro, before applying siphon.

A Templar is still a better healer, but others can heal pretty good, if the group is decent.

I saw many tank dies in seconds, I saw supposedly DPS has no aoe and fight all the mobs in group dungeons one by one. I saw ppl running around to avoid healer's range (Templar's spells are more forgiving in this scenario).

It is what it is, truth is probably quite simple, a group is better served with healer, tank and dps. Its hard to tank forever in these places.

alkoriak

I understand the adds attack you but why the boss with 3 tanks? Maybe each one was doing dps thinking the others will tank or they will all tank at the same time and cancel each other? Not enough info to determine what went wrong but maybe an idea for you since you are DK : The earthen earth ability ingneous weapons that adds power and fire damage to your allies but also greatly improves the power of your staff (double power compared to your allies) and subsequent heals.

Dagoth_Rac

I am pretty sure healing draws aggro in ESO. I like this. If I am fighting enemies, I always go after healers first. So it makes some sense that enemies would do the same to us.

This is definitely not a game to sit back out of the fray and heal outside the battle. The "smart heal" system makes it so you don't have to micromanage healing. You can wade into the fight and watch the group health bars out of the corner of your eye. Well, maybe not smack dab in the middle of a dozen fire beatles! But you should contribute some supplemental DPS.

Also, I sometimes think everybody in this game is a vampire except me. And Blessed Crucible is tough on vamps because of all the fire damage the baddies deal out.

Evandus

On my Templar I learned very quickly two things in Blessed Crucible:

1. Standing in the stupid cannot be negated, period.
2. Anyone foolish enough to try to tank the fire beetles or stand in the lava explosion/fire streams for the end fight deserves to die.

Really though, 3 tanks isn't the way to get through that dungeon painlessly. Especially if they were trying to turtle up in fights. You absolutely need cc in most groups running through there.

I've played as a primary healer in another game for 6 years. I learned very quickly that frequent complainers are frequent mistake makers.

kitsinni

As a DK you want to use one of the Igneus Weapon morphs because weapon damage buffs healing with Resto staff. I wouldn't use dragon blood or talons personally you already have heals and talons is going to do more damage and get you even more agro.

I would use Rapid Regen (personally I would use Mutagen since you have no direct heals) before the fight, then throw a pool of Grand Healing in the main area. If the fight is slow and you can throw on an extra Rapid Regen and you have plenty of magicka go for it but don't make it the priority. The group has to have situational awareness and try to stay in a group. If you have not already turn on health bars so you can see who is taking damage for your combat prayer since it is directional. I would use quick siphon on bosses but make sure the tank has taunted them already. I would also use healing ward for when someone is close to death and you can't get close enough to them to heal them. It is a ok substitute for not having a direct heal and will keep the lowest health person around a bit. Put Igneus Weapon on your second bar and buff your groups weapon damage before the pull.

Your group probably just sucked if there were three tanks and none of them could taunt the boss off you they are terrible. Also three tanks are not going to be doing the DPS necessary to get the things killed fast enough to keep you alive.

Merlin13KAGL

Beesting wrote: »

Hi, yesterday i was doing blessed crucible with three tanks. I was the healer.
It is a very chaotic dungeon with lots of hard hitting bosses and the fire beetles.
After we got wiped twice i received a lot of swearing from a pug member and that made me think:

Am i a bad healer? Should i never attack any mobs in a dungeon?

I am level 49 and have been a healer since level 20, so it is pretty much maxed out.

@Beesting‌, was that the consensus this time through, or have
you heard this for the last 29 levels? If you haven't, then it's probably not that you're a bad healer.

There is a rhythm of things. True for your character, true for your group, and true for various dungeons. Sometimes it takes bit to find the balance between all three.

Also, your group member can sync with this, or they can go against it. If they do, they die. That simple.

Being a healer doesn't mean you keep everyone alive. It means you help keep everyone alive. They have to help you help them.

Should you never attack? Doubtful. It's situational. With the passives you have indicated, your heavy attacks actually help heal your group members - it's a freebie for them and for you, so why wouldn't you use it?

In regard to other attacks, it depends. Do you run out of magicka in the process, or do you have ample remaining to complete heals? Does use of your other two skills take enough time away that you are unable to heal effectively?

Again, this is situational. You have to gauge it and modify accordingly. Some dungeons, you may have to focus more on just healing, something difficult to do if you are used to helping out with DPS. At the same time, if you are not having healing issues, there is no reason for you to just stand there and look at the other three going "it's not my job."

I usually play it where I heal first, and assist with beating the boss down second. Sometimes I flat out ask "Do you want strictly heal, or heal/DPS?"

One last point, I am a good healer. But sometimes, people are gonna die. If you never had to change strategy (everyone, not just you), the dungeons would be too easy.

There's a way to make it through, you (all) just have to find it. The problem may not be on your end.

Beesting wrote: »

I am a DK woodelf with light armor, mages stone, magica enchants on all pieces.
My magica regen is overcharged at 70, i am vamp with supernatural recovery etc.

On my bar i have rapid regeneration, combat prayer and quick siphon. (And green dragon blood and burning talons for emergencies) bar 2 is flame with pulsar etc for normal questing.

The thing is that the bosses always seem to attack me first. Especially when i open with quick siphon cast on the boss.

I have been confused because i have the pasives essence drain 2/2 en cycle of life 2/2 and do a heavy attack on bosses and ads all the time. Seemed like a good idea.

What is the full layout of your full secondary skill bar? I find that group skill bar/solo skill bar sounds great in theory, but I usually have to have all 10 spots, so all 10, with a few exceptions, change regularly depending on the circumstance.

Your regen sounds good. With the right armor/provisioning, I don't suspect Magicka is an issue very often. When it is, that's what potions are for.

Aside from the fire thing, as a Vamp, you have some good bonuses in your favor. The only thing I might set up differently is the Quick Siphon.

Your healing spells affect you as well as your group. The return from Quick Siphon is less then great, in my opinion.

Put Drain Essence on there and get double duty out it. You're hurting your enemy, you're recharging your own Health and Stamina, and you're providing a 3 second stun where the rest of your group members should be beating the crap out of whatever you are draining. Rinse and repeat between heals...

Also, what stage do you stay in? The cost reduction (not just Vamp skills) in Stage 4 often outweighs the Health regen loss you incur. Again, healing spells work on you too.

As a healer, they attack you first, eh? Seems you got the same set of armor (the one with the bullseye crest on the front and the back) that I did.

Unless you are the high level guy, and even then, it's questionable, you probably shouldn't be leading the attack. You've got three other guys for that, and first hit gets first aggro - regardless of how it goes from there.

When they do decide they like you, move! Move alot. Move away, and if possible, kite your assailant back to the other three. It's your job to keep them alive, but it's their job to keep you alive. You die, they die. It's that simple.

Sometimes, your tanks need to move too. Being a tank with a healer doesn't mean you can completely disregard your own health bar. Sometimes you'll have to run to them, sometimes they'll have to run to you! (You may be busy defending yourself, you may not be able to see behind you.)

Beesting wrote: »

And i read that eso is different from other mmo's, mobs attack everyone, not just the tank.
In the blessed crucible last night two of them cam after me, while the other two were fighting the three tanks. Not very nice.

Any advice? Should i just open with rapid regeneration, count to 16, apply it again, and add combat prayer every 8 secs?
I think my magica regen can sustain it without using my purple restoration staff with a purple magica drain enchant on it for the heavy attack.

I know i can just go and do the dungeon again and try it out, but the results may vary, so i thought i would ask you guys and girls some advice.
Thanks

ESO seems to have equal opportunity aggro... While it does seem a little odd that every now and then (sometimes more often than now), the enemy will run right past the other three guys thumping on him to come after you, use it to your advantage. Back away while attacking with your staff or throwing a quick heal and with enough distance, he'll turn back to one of the others. The others should be doing all in their power to get him more interested in them and less interested in you. This often involves them pursuing while you go the other way.

We ran Wayrest Sewers one time with three people, a L19, a L26ish (me), and a VR2. End boss didn't care - decided she wanted me, and only me.

One of the greatest things you can do is have all four of you going four different directions. This forces your enemy to turn and switch targets regularly. The more your enemy moves, the less your enemy attacks.

If you have three tanks, one should almost always have at least an eye on you. Again, you die, they die. Also, think of it like a tag team idea...low health guy bows out for a sec, gets healed, jumps back in and gives someone a break.

When I say you have a rhythm, it's a rhythm, not necessarily a repetition. Lead off with Rapid Regen, even Combat Prayer. This gives them some bonuses going in the door. Think of it like taking vitamins before you get sick. Let them take the first swing, though.

Don't be afraid to cast early. If your regen is generally good, you don't have to wait until Regen expires to cast it again. Let the damage they take (and it's okay if they take some damage - they're tanks) and your magicka be your guide.

Don't cast too often. Get a feel for when your spells expire, know that you can drop Combat Prayer three times in a row if you have to, but you will have diminishing returns. A second or two of quiet in between will usually not kill your group members. In the same respect, if you Magicka is good, and everyone is healthy, a free cast of this will never hurt your party members, so you can cast sometimes even if they don't (yet) need it. Know what your spells do - an instant cast held off to the last minute can be worth far more than a heal-over-time cast early and often.

Use your heavy Restro attacks from a distance. They heal your party, they restore Magicka to you.

Sometimes, even in a group, you're on your own. There will be circumstances where you will have to fend for yourself. Same is true for your party members. In this particular dungeon, your fellow players need to be aware that you have to have a special aversion to fire, so you will be doing a bit more bobbing and weaving than usual.

Lastly, none of you should wait until you're out to take potions...if you're halfway down and you know you're going to burn through health/magicka more, take the potion now! It will be fighting the burn and the cooldown will already be ticking away, as opposed to waiting until zero and then really needing that second potion...

One other thing I like to use, and one that often gets underestimated, is the Undaunted Blood Altar. Odds are, one or more of you has this. ("Tank, heal thyself.") While the benefit from 40% increased regen may seem meager, it can sometimes be the difference between just getting by, and doing it all over again.

Repeat after me: "I am a healer." You've pursued this for 29 levels. You'll find your method, and you'll be great!

Beesting

Thx for the great tips and answers everyone.
I will also answer some questions myself
I have finished all the dungeons except selene's web and the coldharbour ones, most more than once. The only time i was critised was in arx, at the last boss where you have to stand on a small island a survice the electric blast long enough. But we did it and i learned then,

Since i have had combat prayer i normally spin around in a circle and spam it 3 times, so even the people that have run away from me get the heals and extra armor. That works well most of the time.

At the blackheart pirate dungeon i had a guy that always ran to the far end of the fight, so yes he died, i asked him about 5 times not to run away and eventually he listened haha.

I used to have mutagen before but changed it at my only respec at lvl 38 because i thought most people are smart enough to have a self heal on them as they learn to play. Mutagen is more for people that do BC the first time, i read somewhere. Combat prayer also heals for a lot.

Before i go into a dungeon i make sure my vampire stage is on one.
I have a purple fire resist ring that gives 900 resist.

I use blue lvl 45 food giving a magica and health boost for an hour.

On my second bar i have the flame knockback, silvers shards, pulsar, green dragon blood, dark talons. I dont tend to switch bars in a dungeon unless i can see everyone has plenty health, the switching bars can have some nasty lag.

Thank you everyone for the advice, i will try it out.

The_Sadist

I tried healing several times of my Sorcerer but ultimately got frustrated at PUGs running half way across the map and completely out of my of my heals. Once they inevitably die they complained about how bad of a healer I was and despite educating them about how the healing system works in ESO they proceeded to moan and groan. Never again, well, not until I make my Templar.

So you might have been a bad healer, or your 3 tanks might have been idiots (seriously, 3 tanks that's a whole lot of taunting). Your character isn't optimised to heal but that doesn't necessarily mean you're bad, but a Breton Templar would probably do a better job (or not depending on who's behind the wheels). Don't let one bad experience get you down, if it's a consistent thing you might be to blame though.

drkeys143

Not going to quote it, it's too long lol, but Merlin is absolutely on the money with everything he/she has said, I doubt you are a bad healer, 3 tanks and healer isn't an optimal group anyway.

Sometimes people expect they can wade in and start flailing around, standing in the red zones, and it doesn't matter, the healer will keep them going. It is their job to keep the healer alive as well, to run to you if they are in trouble, making it easier to do your job, everything is a co-op, you heal them, and DPS when you can, they deal with the aggro and try to look out for you also

jrgray93

As others have said, three tanks isn't ideal, and you can't do anything about people not blocking heavies or standing in the fire. I have numerous videos of dungeon runs I did with friends and although I thought it was my fault when it happened, I watched the videos to see their deaths were mostly instant from their own failure to react.

As for your build, I would personally drop talons and blood and replace them with Grand Healing and Obsidian Shield.

Combat prayer can be very inefficient, particularly if you are indeed using it three times in a row. It's best saved for when your entire group is bunched up and gets hit by an AoE effect. It's only a light burst of healing so the cost makes it not worth it if you aren't hitting more than 1-2 people.

crislevin

I just find combat prayer very expensive and doesn't heal as much as healing springs. It also needs a general direction when cast.

I guess you can try out both and see which works better.

kitsinni

Unless you are a templar Healing Ward is the only chance you have of saving people that run to far away. Expecting people to self heal is a bad idea it won't happen.

jrgray93

Also, addons like FTC can show you exactly when your effects expire, so you don't waste magicka.

Merlin13KAGL

Beesting wrote: »

I have finished all the dungeons except selene's web and the coldharbour ones, most more than once.

Before i go into a dungeon i make sure my vampire stage is on one.
I have a purple fire resist ring that gives 900 resist.

@Beesting, You don't survive all of those once if you suck, let alone multiple times.

I know it seems counterintuitive, but try it stage 4, just once - stage 2 or 3, if it makes you nervous. The health regen difference is 30, 40 at the most. If you avoid like crazy for 1 second to gain 30 more health, you're probably gonna die anyway.

Mouse over the cast cost at stage 1, then again at Stage 4. If you can get one extra cast in the process, it's just paid for itself. Try it once, you may never Feed again...

The_Sadist wrote: »

I tried healing several times of my Sorcerer but ultimately got frustrated at PUGs running half way across the map and completely out of my of my heals

@The_Sadist‌, first one's free...and that's if you're feeling generous (and usuallly if everyone's below level 20 a very inexperienced with dungeons).

Fortunately, as you say, this usually takes care of itself.

drkeys143 wrote: »

Not going to quote it, it's too long lol, but Merlin is absolutely on the money with everything he/she has said, I doubt you are a bad healer, 3 tanks and healer isn't an optimal group anyway.

Sometimes people expect they can wade in and start flailing around, standing in the red zones, and it doesn't matter, the healer will keep them going. It is their job to keep the healer alive as well, to run to you if they are in trouble, making it easier to do your job, everything is a co-op, you heal them, and DPS when you can, they deal with the aggro and try to look out for you also

@drkeys143‌, are you saying I'm wordy?

I like to cover all bases, and what you have added is right on target, as well. The best groups understand that they have a role, but sometimes they have to step outside of it every now and then.

Happy adventuring!

bertenburnyb16_ESO

well first off, let the tank open so he will draw most aggro (but 3 tanks just seems wrong, low dps output means fights last longer and so u have to heal more)
secondly, I never really got into the syphon, I would use healing springs as main heal, since u dont got an o-crap heal, on my templar my healingbar looks about this: healing springs-mutagen/power of the light (templar, only when not that many healing needed)-combat prayer-honor the dead (templar) - inner light- solar prison (mostly)/practiced incantation (templar)
so only dps is resto heavys (which also help with magica management), Solar prison ulti which adds also damage reduction (youve got banner for that) and sometimes PotL or volcanic rune (which also adds some good cc)
and high crit means moar healing and ulti build which is also handy, so a solar prision (banner in your case) every fight almost.
for DK, ing shield and cinderstorm as extra mitigation or ing weapons to buff your groups damage are also options
with that bar I also healed a couple of vet dung pug runs without (too) much trouble
I see the the healer as, well mainly healer ofc, and secondly buffer/debuffer, but its not your job to provide alot of dam, let the dps'ers dps and tank tank

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

The fact that you asked that question means you are probably good, or have the potential to be good.

3 tanks makes no sense. Also, it does seem like they should have been able to hold aggro, though I would let them grab it before making any attacks yourself.

I have heard heal aggro is bad in this game. I haven't done any healing, however.

Lots of good responses here, anyway.

jrgray93

Heal agro isn't usually a problem. It happens, but you just have to block heavies and some spells. If a boss is on you, then you have a problem. That's on the tank. Unless, of course, it's a boss that randomly switches targets, as some do.

Siliconhobbit_ESO

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Beesting wrote: »

Hi, yesterday i was doing blessed crucible with three tanks. I was the healer.
It is a very chaotic dungeon with lots of hard hitting bosses and the fire beetles.
After we got wiped twice i received a lot of swearing from a pug member and that made me think:

Just a stab in the dark... but the bolded was probably more of an issue than your healing abilities.

I would have to agree with the above statement as well. With three tanks, each of them could be using threat generating abilities. If used to often, the boss then becomes immune to the threat and chaos ensues.

Perhaps the tanks had no idea what they were doing.

PBpsy

So none of the three tanks had Inner Fire or Puncture . Yes the agro in this game is weird but even so I am able to keep a lot of the bosses away from the healer for quite a bit of a fight. Actually I can keep some bosses on me for the entire fight.

Mud_Puppy

Med armor is an odd choice for a healer. However I'm more curious why you guys had 3 tanks.

Beesting

Mud_Puppy wrote: »

Med armor is an odd choice for a healer. However I'm more curious why you guys had 3 tanks.

Haha, you must remember me from the first weeks when i was trying the woodelf with bow approach. I was wearing medium armor then.
When i unlocked snipe and discovered it was useless because it cancels out when mobs run to you i switched to using silvers shards and burning talons for questing.

As things got harder i tried the light armor dk build with flame staff and i love pulsar. I normally play with my son and he is a tank , his friend is a tank and we needed one more member to do the dungeon. Not many people were online so we ended up with one more tank sword and board guy.
Did not worry me one bit. It was only the enraged swearing of the new group member that made me believe i was probably doing something wrong.

Had my light armor wearing dk with razor armor, standard and pulsar been online, it would have gone different, but then i would not have had the urge to ask for advice.

So i will have to train up grand healing to morph healing springs and also obsidian shield to igneous shield. That last one might take some time though, as i made some choices along the way and kind of ignored the earthen heart skill line.

Osmiumium

"Should I not attack"?

YES, you should attack. I have a group I've played with for years in all sorts of games, so we are comfortable with each other. At first, I tried the "I just heal" route, using resto staff just to regain magicka.

When I switched to "attack as much as I can while not forgetting to heal" everything was much smoother. We rolled through every dungeon. Most boss fights I would spend at least half my time/resources attacking the boss. Trash fights I would barely heal at all.