Less like WoW? Remove Perks from Skill Lines.

Soloeus

The Premise:

The premise is that many players fear this game becoming too much like Insert_Game. Usually the target is WoW but I have seen Guild Wars 2, Everquest and Ultima Online inserted by others. This point is normally used to argue against Auction Houses, Battlegrounds, Dueling and Arenas. (All of which are featured in many MMORPG's).

The Proposal:

When you reach a specific Rank in a Skill Line, you must spend a Skill Point to obtain use of the skill in question. I would like to remove the limited resource of Skill Points from the game. I propose instead that reaching the specific Rank you unlock the skill in question.

The Reason:

This allows one character to master all weapons, crafts and playstyles on one character.

The best arguments against this idea:

1. Inserting the layer of choice forces you to be different;
2. The restriction adds a level of personal skill to character building.

Refutations:

1. The 1-5 Skill Bar already forces everyone to be different;
2. Thus removing the Layer of Redundancy doesn't change this.

Closing Argument:

You have a Layer of Redundancy, having to choose the same option Twice. First, you have to spend a limited resource to "unlock it" then you have to slot it on one of your 1-5 Skill Bars. The restriction discourages players from really experimenting with Alternate Builds and railroads everyone into similar builds and playstyles.

Removing this Layer of Choice/Redundancy would not only make ESO more unique but it would really bring us closer to playing as we want.

phaneub17_ESO

Right... because having 250+ skill points is limited. I'm at the point where I'm leveling weapon skill lines that I will NEVER use just for giggles. I'm getting every single ultimate and their morphs to rank 4 so i can cycle around even though I probably won't use more than 2. Once crafting is fully researched, there's a crapton more points that open up, Woodworking coming in first for most.

By this change you also take away one of the incentives of exploration if you do want more skill points. Not everyone cares about achievements, but going after sky shards to boost more skill points is always open.

rynth

um....aren't there like a possible 300 skill points in game right now?

and we can respect if we want...

and your suggesting a complete redo of character leveling....

lol yeah never ever going to happen they might as well create a totally new game.

Soloeus

@Phaeneub17_ESO: This argument I considered but is a Red Herring. It doesn't matter how many Skill Points you eventually acquire. What matters is that the pool exists and for a long time until then, does limit you.

My argument is that Skill Points shouldn't exist. Instead of hunting Skyshards you would grind ranks in anything you wanted and any "time sink" in doing that would instead be invested in working to master every skill line.


@Rynth: As above. Add that nothing needs to change at all.

Makkir

I honestly think currently there are too many skill points in the game.

Soloeus

Makkir wrote: »

I honestly think currently there are too many skill points in the game.

Do you feel Choice Paralysis? Do you want the restriction for yourself or others? I don't mean to accuse but it seems like your stance is coded and actually means "I am good enough to play with 150 less skill points, so I want everyone else to."

I feel the need for the restriction or time sink element is worthy of discussion and best answered that with a 1-5 skill bar you are already limited in your options and have to make choices about how to build and play in different aspects of the game.

Nox_Aeterna

I agree with this idea , it would be an improvement in my opinion.

Having limitations like classes/skills points... is indeed annoying and adds nothing of good to me.

Still , because of how many skill points there are in the game , i dont think this is a major issue.

Makkir

Is that what you got from my one sentence?

Makkir

Or maybe it's because everyone and his mother is blacksmith, alchemist, and a clothier.

sommazzatoreb14_ESO

Or you are just not really open to differing opinions....

rynth

TES had skill points, heck dang near every game I know (or can think of off top of my head that is a roleplaying type game) has some sort of skill points. We aren't limited in our choices.

In fact compared to a lot of other games we are given a rather free reign on how we want to play. I can be a sorc. and use any weapon I want and armor type I want unlike a lot of games that force you to use a certain type of equipment due to your class. I can choose to craft anything and everything that I want to (though bank and bag space can tend to damper crafting everything on one ch.). I can choose to save my skills, respect them, etc. LOTS and LOTS of freedom to choose and play.

SFBryan18

I think we should get the choice to switch classes after a respec.

Soloeus

No, I agree there are a lot of skill points; and a lot of freedom. I am curious about why removing this "layer of choice/redundancy" would be bad or good to you and what you feel the right number of skill points would be?

My argument isn't that we lack freedom.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Soloeus wrote: »

The Premise:

The premise is that many players fear this game becoming too much like Insert_Game.

Their fears are groundless, it's not becoming like other MMOs .. it already IS like other MMOs.

I just don't get this 'special snowflake' view some TES fans have of this game. In many ways it's far more like a generic quest-based MMO (WOW, Rift, LOTRO, etc. etc. etc.) than the TES 'franchise' it's connected to.

Sure, there are some adaptations of ideas but if you look at leveling and character progression there's nothing new there; weapon and armour progression exists elsewhere, all ZOS did was take the idea of 'skilling up' gear and couple it with traditional skill progression.

One of the KEY differentiators of TES games from any other RPGs I played was that leveling was done entirely through using skills .. that ONE KEY DIFFERENCE is absent in this ESO, there's no 'level by using' in the entire game, the nearest you come to is 'level skill by slotting it', you don't actually have to use it and it levels based on XP from kills/quests not by being used, in any case.

And the fact it isn't revolutionary isn't a Bad Thing, I love the game (mostly) but it's not a 'newgen MMO' or anything like, it's derivative and at best evolutionary. It's a Good Game, but it's not 'a different kind of MMO'.

MoeCoastie

IMHO, let the devs create the game the way the envisioned it to be. Tired of community outrage mucking up the game begging for features and asking it to be like a game they just left or took a vacation from.

For some reason newgen gamers believe a new game is like a community project. They feel empowered thinking they somehow can mold the game into the "next best thing" but in reality, the mob is a fickle bunch and with the anonymity of the web comes no accountability or loyalty toward it. They beg for features and when that feature is added, if it doesnt produce the desired impact they just shrug it off and move on to the next game leaving the remaining players to deal with the mess that was left behind.

Sink or swim, I'd rather it be because of the devs vision and not the anonymous gamer in a dark room uploading videos to youtube proclaiming his expertise in the gaming industry.

I apologize for the rant but im tired of unqualified, inexperienced, and narrow-minded anonymous keyboard warriors thinking just because they played WoW for a half decade that somehow qualifies them as a game developer.

diamondeyethunderbow_ESO

I fail to see how this improves the game in any meaningful way. This is change for the sake of change.

dsalter

Soloeus wrote: »

My argument is that Skill Points shouldn't exist. Instead of hunting Skyshards you would grind ranks in anything you wanted and any "time sink" in doing that would instead be invested in working to master every skill line.

yes because grinding is fun.
the skillpoint system follows in skyrims footsteps regarding dragon souls and level up perk points, it's also very different from wow where classes mean one can inherintly do something and cant do something else. mage healers? pshh never possible.

in ESO, anyone can be anything if they juggle skills around, the "limit" (i mean it in a sarcastic way due to the amount of suprus skillpoints you'll get) ensures that everyone cant be everything but the freedom to do what you want with those skillpoints allows freedom of play and setup.
for example i'm a sorc who has restoration, destruction and dual wield as possible play choices and working on Bows. try do that on my mage in wow.

isengrimb16_ESO

I like that exploration is a part of gaining your skill points.

There are lots of skill points/skyshards available; the only really limiting thing is the time and practice it takes to get those skill lines/abilities up to spend them; and RPGs are about a journey of self-improvement - you're supposed to feel gimpy and then become more skilled and powerful as time goes on.

They seem to add new Skyshards with each area they open (there's some in Craglorn, right? I would expect there to be some in the solo vet zones they said are coming eventually.)

It's designed to be Elder Scroll-y in that you can eventually master pretty much anything and everything you want on one character; the action bar is your limiter with how much you can use (combat-wise) at once.

I also like how we don't have useless crap spells shoved in our face every so often, and wind up with stuff we have no use for. I can hand-pick what abiIities I want and never have to bother with stuff I don't.

I like questing, not grinding. If I wanted mindless grinding, I'd still be running around Timeless Isle like a dope.

kassandratheclericb14_ESO

Last time I check Wow gives like a hand full of points..beginning only at level 10 and you are locked in to a certain bit until you reach another level.

Did they change that?

I like you can put points damn near everywhere. In fact because I am a casual gamer (If I must be named) I put mine in stupid crap all the time. Its great!!

preevious

Sorry, but there is actually far too many skill points obtainable in this game. if anything, they should actually put more limits.

now, everyone is a master of his class, his race, his world skill line, his craft(s) (hoo boy, how that one is killing the economy .. )

However, along when reducing the number of skill points, they should lower drastically the cost of a respecialization.

Brizz

Agreed.

I would go about it a completely different way though.

Instead of having to pay 20k gold in order to change one morph (I have had to do this so many times... ) the player should be able to reset points every so often (24 hours to 3 days or so)

preevious

Yeah, that's even better, actually ^^ That way, we can all play as we want, and keep poeples specialized

AlexDougherty

Soloeus wrote: »

Refutations:

1. The 1-5 Skill Bar already forces everyone to be different;
2. Thus removing the Layer of Redundancy doesn't change this.

1. Invalid arguement, it's like saying that if you made us fight with bagettes then everything else could be the same as another MMO. Having a different control system does not make the skill point system wrong. If you are going to refute something address the arguement you are refuting.
2. This is an extension of point 1, not a seperate point, therefore has no substance of it's own.


Both the skill point system and the skill levelling system are both valid systems, I have no personal preferrence for either. But you need a decent arguement for a massive change which would require a total rewrite of the crafting in the game. Without an extremely convincing arguement the DEVS will maintain the status quo (I was going to say stay with the Status Quo, but that's redundant).

Tabbycat

For those of you saying we have to many skill points, no one is forcing you to use them all. Figure out how many you think you should have and ignore the rest of them. Not everyone wants to play like you do so stop trying to force us to.

OP, I don't like your idea. Maybe I've just gotten used to how the game is now, but I actually do enjoy getting skill points. It forces you to actually think about how you want to build your character. If you decide you want to change something, you can always go respec. If this were a single player TES game, I'd say, sure that sounds interesting, but I prefer Skyrim's method.

In the other TES SP games you did have points that you invested in your character that improved your character in some way. This is simply following that trend.

hk11

Are you saying that ESO should avoid any feature from popular games of the past? We should probably get rid of questing. "Less like WoW? Remove Questing."

kassandratheclericb14_ESO

hk11 wrote: »

Are you saying that ESO should avoid any feature from popular games of the past? We should probably get rid of questing. "Less like WoW? Remove Questing."

LOL and so true.

There are things in WoW that work and work well. Sometimes you don't have to reinvent the wheel. It doesn't hurt to look at another MMO and see things that work well and make your own version.

I love all the points we get. One of the reasons I stopped playing WoW was they got rid of this and made cookie cutter characters. It was boring.

mutharex

WoW has introduced many things that are seeing as a bane of the genre and generally an unnecessary dumbing down (and that aren't present in other games) so I really don't see the point.

McDonald is popular that doesn't mean I see it as something to imitate. If you do, go eat there....

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

kassandratheclericb14_ESO wrote: »

Last time I check Wow gives like a hand full of points..beginning only at level 10 and you are locked in to a certain bit until you reach another level.

Did they change that?

I like you can put points damn near everywhere. In fact because I am a casual gamer (If I must be named) I put mine in stupid crap all the time. Its great!!

Blizzard destroyed the talent tree system with the release of Pandaria, you're right in that's all that's left of a once deep and flexible talent system .. the next expansion will see the removal of some core battle mechanics and stats in Blizzard's seemingly never-ending desire to 'simplify' (aka. dumb-down) the game for reasons no one seems to know, including some of their CMs.

OTOH you're not limited to a paltry 6 skills at any one time as in ESO, I think I prefer a dumbed-down talent tree to a dumbed-down UI where I have a trivial selection of skills available to me without a lot of faffing about.

Xnemesis

It introduces a risk/reward and an element of choice on where you place your points. There have been times where I've had to weigh the pros and cons of placing a point between two abilities.

Falmer

So you want to remove incentives for people to do anything other than grind levels?

Aren't games dumbed down enough as it is? Do we really want to encourage developers to just remove everything but hacking and slashing to gain levels and abilities?

No thanks. If anything they should develop ways of making classes even MORE specialized. Adding additional ways to evolve skills or adding yet another level to morph skills once the level 2 abilities have reached rank 5.

Would love to see skills that cost multiple skill points added. Maybe something that costs 20 skill points that would allow a 6th button on your skillbar.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Xnemesis wrote: »

It introduces a risk/reward and an element of choice on where you place your points. There have been times where I've had to weigh the pros and cons of placing a point between two abilities.

Trouble is those choices are temporary and you can change your mind with a small amount of gold, so there's no real consequence.