Some thoughts on Veteran Content.

Metronomicon

Before I begin my suggestions,I would like to point out that I am part of the "unhappy" crowd as far as the current/ongoing/future nerfs are concerned.That beeing said,I also understand that Zos as a gaming company has to take care of its customers.
Now let's divide the customer base in 3 main categories :

1)The Casual gamer:It mainly consists of people that simply cannot dedicate the required amount of time in researching builds , tactics due to real life or simply they don't want to.They want to log in have a nice chat in guild, slot their favorite abilities and relax while facerolling the content.

2)The average gamer : This category of gamers love the game as much as the casual but they don't mind having one or two wipes during leveling and would probably look up some builds or tactics on forums.They would definitely prefer a bit more challenging content than the first category.

3)The "wizard" status gamer : This guy doesn't mind playing for more than 4-5 hours daily ,absolutely loves getting destroyed by mobs just to put his and his fellow adventurers mind to work out the best way to overcome a really tough encounter.They usually don't play in order to rush to max lvl because that is not their main goal.Max lvls and endgame will come eventually and surely they will be prepared for it.

If Zenimax nerfs the content it will make #3 sad and whiny (myself included :P )and if Zenimax either leaves content as it was pre 1.2 it will upset #1 and #3.This is the good old "Damned if you do ,damned if you don't".

In my opinion there is a way to keep #1 #2 #3 happy at the same time:
Split the megaserver into 3 (or more) channels. Channel 1 has mobs with lets say -30% Hp and -16%dmg.Channel 2 has mobs with 100% Hp and 100% dmg. Channel 3 has 130%hp and 130%dmg. (The percentages are just a mere example to make my point.)
Of course I have no clue as to how easy or hard it is to implement something like that,but if it was possible then :
1) Everyone is happy
2) Zenimax can focus on primarily revamping and sorting out stamina /heavy / medium armor builds and
3) Make more content.
I really hope my post wasn't too long to make you fall asleep while reading it.


Best regards and lots of love.

kieso

Metronomicon

Thanks for your input,you really made me think about what I posted....

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Metronomicon wrote: »

In my opinion there is a way to keep #1 #2 #3 happy at the same time:
Split the megaserver into 3 (or more) channels. Channel 1 has mobs with lets say -30% Hp and -16%dmg.Channel 2 has mobs with 100% Hp and 100% dmg. Channel 3 has 130%hp and 130%dmg. (The percentages are just a mere example to make my point.)
Of course I have no clue as to how easy or hard it is to implement something like that,but if it was possible then :
1) Everyone is happy
2) Zenimax can focus on primarily revamping and sorting out stamina /heavy / medium armor builds and
3) Make more content.
I really hope my post wasn't too long to make you fall asleep while reading it.

Don't see it working.

Fact is those in #3 mainly whine when things are 'dumbed down' because they feel their e-peen deflating as 'their' exclusive content gets opened up to the 'casuals' and 'bads'.

Moreover, those same players will flood the 'easy' content because most in #3 consider the game starts at level cap so they rush through content as fast as possible.

My evidence?

The hoards abusing Anomaly VP rushing VR1-VR12 in two days, that had no interest in challenging content so no point keeping VR as it was, the minority it was able to be played by didn't want it.

Zebug

not sure that would be good just because it'll split the population up even more. pre-nerf I went through Reaper March (VR5 I think it was...) and saw a total of 2 people through the entire zone (I usually game weekday evenings and weekends, US server Central Time Zone).

That would take those 3 people and split them up potentially so we never even see a single player. At least post nerf, I've seen more people in VR zones and it's been lovely.

I like your 3 categories, I just think there are less of Cat 3 so they are going to get the shaft. Personally, I don't care if its a face roll or nearly impossible, I enjoy every moment of my life for the moment and just smile and carry on. I simply adapt and overcome whatever it is.

Tavore1138

Thing is I could fit into any of those categories... i play for fun but I do play for quite a few hours. I don't want insane challenges but I did complete Cadwell's Gold and hit VR12 as a stamina NB before the changes. I love PvP but I am not in a guild and sometimes find being killed as much fun as doing the killing.

Trying to fit gamers into neat groups you can segregate for convenience is not going to work well.... a lesson that applies to life in general...

Guppet

Funny how you called group 3 wizard gamers, particularly when it includes yourself. It does fit with the inflated sense of self worth often present in that bracket.

Now had you called them the no-lifers, that would have been more appropriate

starlizard70ub17_ESO

In order to do what Metronomicon is suggesting, Zenimax would have to implament a system like UO has. A multi "shard" world where you have a normal play world(s) like we have now. A "hardcore world, and a "hardcore open PvP" world. Note UO has been running thier game with mutli shard worlds at 3 or 4 diffrent skill levels for almost 18 years now. I'm not sure how long it would take, or even if ESO could setup a system like that, since UO had that system in place right at the begining.

stumpy999

why not have everybody in same world? So pvp takes place everywhere except starter island. Beasties are levelled to the zone. Sure it would remove the "cadwells silver/gold" nonsense but it would generally hang well

I'd also like to see a single shard, no NA and EU, just a single instance.

Vuron

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Metronomicon wrote: »

In my opinion there is a way to keep #1 #2 #3 happy at the same time:
Split the megaserver into 3 (or more) channels. Channel 1 has mobs with lets say -30% Hp and -16%dmg.Channel 2 has mobs with 100% Hp and 100% dmg. Channel 3 has 130%hp and 130%dmg. (The percentages are just a mere example to make my point.)
Of course I have no clue as to how easy or hard it is to implement something like that,but if it was possible then :
1) Everyone is happy
2) Zenimax can focus on primarily revamping and sorting out stamina /heavy / medium armor builds and
3) Make more content.
I really hope my post wasn't too long to make you fall asleep while reading it.

Don't see it working.

Fact is those in #3 mainly whine when things are 'dumbed down' because they feel their e-peen deflating as 'their' exclusive content gets opened up to the 'casuals' and 'bads'.

Moreover, those same players will flood the 'easy' content because most in #3 consider the game starts at level cap so they rush through content as fast as possible.

My evidence?

The hoards abusing Anomaly VP rushing VR1-VR12 in two days, that had no interest in challenging content so no point keeping VR as it was, the minority it was able to be played by didn't want it.

The jealously and envy is strong in this post...

#3 whines when things are 'dumbed down' because we don't want to play a dumbed down game that requires no thought and no effort. Most of us play games for the challenge and are the same people that play games like DragonAge and Witcher on hard mode instead of easy mode. You can't have epeens in those games because they are single player, but you can keep using this logic and be satisfied with your participation award.

Your evidence is evidence of nothing.

Many people were grinding mobs because they were sick of the mind numbing quest grind in VR or they were PvP players that just came back in to PvE to level again. Many of us didn't find VR content difficult, at all. It just got boring doing all the same quests for the 3rd time and wanted something different.

Xnemesis

Veteran content is being replaced with the champion system this is why he posted the picture of beating a dead horse. /threadclosed

ers101284b14_ESO

kieso wrote: »

Gotta agree with this one ^

Metronomicon

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

Thing is I could fit into any of those categories...

Then you could just log in a different channel depending on your mood.

Metronomicon

starlizard70ub17_ESO wrote: »

Note UO has been running thier game with mutli shard worlds at 3 or 4 diffrent skill levels for almost 18 years now.

This.

Metronomicon

Xnemesis wrote: »

Veteran content is being replaced with the champion system this is why he posted the picture of beating a dead horse. /threadclosed

As far as I know Zos said that the difficulty will be somewhere in the middle of what we now know(I cant recall the forum post to link it).So changing the name and using mid difficulty doesn't quite cut it. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

Phinix1

I suggested a toggle for switching between easy and appropriate veteran content days before the nerf hit, and just got flamed by people that would rather tell me how to play than discuss the issue.

I tried to point out how easy it would be to code, that the phasing is already there, but people just made uneducated assumptions like "that could never work" and "phasing is broken as it is" without actually having any idea what the heck they were talking about.

So yeah. I agree with the dead horse picture. I don't care what they do with vet content anymore. I'm leveling up my nightblade.

Xnemesis

Metronomicon wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

Veteran content is being replaced with the champion system this is why he posted the picture of beating a dead horse. /threadclosed

As far as I know Zos said that the difficulty will be somewhere in the middle of what we now know(I cant recall the forum post to link it).So changing the name and using mid difficulty doesn't quite cut it. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

The Champion System is a replacement for the Veteran System. Now once you hit Level 50, you have access to all of the endgame including Craglorn, Trials, Veteran Dungeons, Veteran Questing...you name it. All endgame content is gonna be scaled down to Level 50 when the Champion System releases, rather than being unlocked throughout the 12 Veteran Ranks.

You can, however, still earn Veteran Levels, but they won't work the way we know them today. As you level up in the Veteran Ranks, you're able to earn Champion Points. Champion Points are like Attribute Points, except you can invest them into all stats, not just Health, Magicka and Stamina. For example, I earn 1 Champion Point. I'm able to invest it into Critical Chance. Or should I invest it into Armor? Or Health/Magicka/Stamina recovery? You earn 1 Champion Point for every 100k XP that you earn post-level 50, and Champion Points are account-wide for all Level 50 characters.

Basically, when the Champion System releases around Update 5 or 6, Veteran Levels will just become means to earn Champion Points to make your characters stronger. Veteran Questing now has an incentive to complete and grinding in Craglorn is no more!

Hope this helped.

OrangeTheCat

Your three categories betray your prejudices and make a lot of assumptions so your argument is flawed from the start, never mind your "solution".

I consider myself a casual player but I definitely am not described by your category 1 and in fact all three categories describe me to varying degrees when considered together.

Gothic

I'm sorry, but this suggestion is kinda ridiculous, and frankly - a little insulting.

Metronomicon wrote: »

They want to log in have a nice chat in guild, slot their favorite abilities and relax while facerolling the content.

Give me a break.

Goibot

[/quote]

All endgame content is gonna be scaled down to Level 50 when the Champion System releases, rather than being unlocked throughout the 12 Veteran Ranks.[/quote]

Please where does it say this?

Anastasia

Metronomicon wrote: »

Thanks for your input,you really made me think about what I posted....

---

and:

"In my opinion there is a way to keep #1 #2 #3 happy at the same time:
Split the megaserver into 3 (or more) channels. Channel 1 has mobs with lets say -30% Hp and -16%dmg.Channel 2 has mobs with 100% Hp and 100% dmg. Channel 3 has 130%hp and 130%dmg. (The percentages are just a mere example to make my point.)
Of course I have no clue as to how easy or hard it is to implement something like that,but if it was possible then :
1) Everyone is happy
2) Zenimax can focus on primarily revamping and sorting out stamina /heavy / medium armor builds and
3) Make more content.
I really hope my post wasn't too long to make you fall asleep while reading it."

---

I appreciate you taking the time to explain your ideas on this Metronomicon! I will say though there is definitely a fourth segmented population. They may like to be casual because of time constraints, or perhaps previously only played console games or, some of them actually may enjoy challenging content as well but do not want it in any component of leveling. In this case they considered Vet Content as 'leveling' and wanted it soloable. Their common bond, and the one which Zeni recently decided was the most important is that they desire to have ALL content through ALL zones be soloable. So far at least, they are not demanding endgame to be soloable also.

The content nerfed on July 7 was part of the original design which the devs created and planned for TESO Vet+ 1-10 for grouping up! It was always meant to be an area which encouraged group-centric play. Many of us had believed the posts made right before the July 7th nerf, which described the mob difficulty changes as 'a tad'. LoL. Not. And we also hoped of course for changes which would create more impetus for grouping in those areas. Also, Not.

After presumably some kind of data about Solo'rs which they prefer to give the most credence to, ZOS oddly decided that although this segment of players should be important, they would provide those demands via nerfing content rather than providing additional cool solo viable content. If they had kept the area where grouping was planned, static, and perhaps thinned out the three- group adds/mobs, or fiddled a little with armor pen or etc. that would have made a 'tad' of a difference. They could have also for instance, upped group e x p bonuses, or adjusted rewards for grouping or any number of other ideas.

Since ZOS fully knew at the point at which they activated the nerf, that they were completely changing Veteran points/content etc, it seems very odd to me that they gave little thought of what the nerf would result in for TESO endgame. But, they didn't. They provided the easier soloability for V+ 1-10 and are full on headed to the other Vet changes via upcoming Phases in updates.

The 'tone' of the player grouping at endgame will most definitely now be affected.

I wonder if a succinct, say, one paragraph long description could even at this time be provided. One which could actually delineate the sweep of direction from what it was pre-launch to the fricking mes---- err fresh new look it is becoming today. All this of course in the midst of issues that really need attention like the horrible lag, the stam/magic ratio issues, armor stats,etc...mainly so as to include much more easily soloable content for that segment of the population. As opposed say, to those veteran MMO PvE players who were lured in/advertised to/focused on and whom were a solid core of support for TESO leading up to this games launch. (*)

Gothic

Leave the overland and delves to be soloable, yet enjoyable for people who just want to soak up story and lore (e.g. - traditional Elder Scrolls players). Continue providing harder content via group dungeons, trials, and new challenges for folks who like to be challenged when gaming (e.g. - traditional MMO players).

Both playstyles are completely viable in this game, and that's not always an easy feat. The July 7 adjustment accomplished that.

Metronomicon

Gothic wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this suggestion is kinda ridiculous, and frankly - a little insulting.

Metronomicon wrote: »

They want to log in have a nice chat in guild, slot their favorite abilities and relax while facerolling the content.

Give me a break.

You say its ridiculous and I respect your opinion although I totally disagree.What you just quoted is an actual phrase I picked up from several guilds and several people,I didn't just come up with that.Also it doesnt mean that I don't respect that! But being insulted by such a thing is beyond me!This tells me that probably you are "insulted by Npc punchlines" as well .( Another actual quote )

Metronomicon

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Your three categories betray your prejudices and make a lot of assumptions so your argument is flawed from the start, never mind your "solution".

I consider myself a casual player but I definitely am not described by your category 1 and in fact all three categories describe me to varying degrees when considered together.

All of my examples come from my own experience ,I didn't assume anything.Even your gamestyle is easily covered by that model,simply log in to any channel you wish according to your liking at that specific time!

Metronomicon

Guppet wrote: »

Funny how you called group 3 wizard gamers, particularly when it includes yourself. It does fit with the inflated sense of self worth often present in that bracket.

Now had you called them the no-lifers, that would have been more appropriate

Then you don't know what "wizard status" is lol . I was merely beeing self sarcastic.But using the term no lifers for people that play more than you can is quite harsh.

Metronomicon

Xnemesis wrote: »

Metronomicon wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

Veteran content is being replaced with the champion system this is why he posted the picture of beating a dead horse. /threadclosed

As far as I know Zos said that the difficulty will be somewhere in the middle of what we now know(I cant recall the forum post to link it).So changing the name and using mid difficulty doesn't quite cut it. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

The Champion System is a replacement for the Veteran System. Now once you hit Level 50, you have access to all of the endgame including Craglorn, Trials, Veteran Dungeons, Veteran Questing...you name it. All endgame content is gonna be scaled down to Level 50 when the Champion System releases, rather than being unlocked throughout the 12 Veteran Ranks.

You can, however, still earn Veteran Levels, but they won't work the way we know them today. As you level up in the Veteran Ranks, you're able to earn Champion Points. Champion Points are like Attribute Points, except you can invest them into all stats, not just Health, Magicka and Stamina. For example, I earn 1 Champion Point. I'm able to invest it into Critical Chance. Or should I invest it into Armor? Or Health/Magicka/Stamina recovery? You earn 1 Champion Point for every 100k XP that you earn post-level 50, and Champion Points are account-wide for all Level 50 characters.

Basically, when the Champion System releases around Update 5 or 6, Veteran Levels will just become means to earn Champion Points to make your characters stronger. Veteran Questing now has an incentive to complete and grinding in Craglorn is no more!

Hope this helped.

I honestly thank you for taking the time to reply!But I can't see exactly where the difficulty issue is beeing addressed.In fact the phrase "scaled down" doesn't sound really promising to me.But thats just me I guess.

Gothic

Metronomicon wrote: »

Gothic wrote: »

I'm sorry, but this suggestion is kinda ridiculous, and frankly - a little insulting.

Metronomicon wrote: »

They want to log in have a nice chat in guild, slot their favorite abilities and relax while facerolling the content.

Give me a break.

You say its ridiculous and I respect your opinion although I totally disagree.What you just quoted is an actual phrase I picked up from several guilds and several people,I didn't just come up with that.Also it doesnt mean that I don't respect that! But being insulted by such a thing is beyond me!This tells me that probably you are "insulted by Npc punchlines" as well .( Another actual quote )

Wizard gamers? C'mon, man. A lot of us have been playing Elder Scrolls games since 1994's "Arena". Your classifications (whether they come from you, or "several guilds" and "several people") are elitist and don't convey the spirit of what this game is. There are lots and lots of MMO's to choose from, maybe this one isn't for you and the people you've talked to?

There's not a lot of folks who would stay interested if you logged in to "faceroll content". To assume that is an insult to people who consider themselves in your arbitrary Category 1. That's what I meant. Story, lore, a true Elder Scrolls experience, and fun is what this game is about.

Not saying this game doesn't have it's flaws, because lawd yes it does, but what about people who enjoyed the 1-50 experience, but want to continue developing the same character and enjoy the story and lore from the other two Alliances? Veteran levels (and soon-to-be Champion levels) will allow that type of player to do that. Making them excessively difficult like they were pre-patch was a silly design choice. The only solution was to create a new character in the faction you wanted to experience, but do it in a level 1-50 fashion again.

The classifications you presented to not convey that type of player at all, and yet segregating the world into channels, shards, or difficulty levels would be extremely detrimental to the game experience as a whole (imagine the economy woes), and would do nothing but segregate an already toxic player environment and mindset.

Like I said above, Zenimax most definitely should keep developing challenging group content (e.g. - new dungeons, trials, etc.), but keep the overworld, story quests, and lore opportunities available for people not interested in being the cool kid.

This is the first time we have been able to experience Tamriel as a whole since 1996's Daggerfall. With the change in Veteran difficulty, it's now possible to see the world with the same character that you've spent time developing without having to worry about a mudcrab lacerating you into bits.

Evergnar

I still think they should make all of ESO group content (extremely challenging to solo) and have NPC mercenaries for hire for those who only want to solo casually.

starlizard70ub17_ESO

Evergnar wrote: »

I still think they should make all of ESO group content (extremely challenging to solo) and have NPC mercenaries for hire for those who only want to solo casually.

I'm really surprised they didn't include NPC mercs for hire like Skyrim. It would have solved alot of the mobs being too hard problems. But then again, if the hired NPCs act anything like the follower NPCs we get grouped with from time to time, they'd just agro the monsters/enemeis on to us and then stand there watching while we get killed.

Xnemesis

Metronomicon wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

Metronomicon wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

Veteran content is being replaced with the champion system this is why he posted the picture of beating a dead horse. /threadclosed

As far as I know Zos said that the difficulty will be somewhere in the middle of what we now know(I cant recall the forum post to link it).So changing the name and using mid difficulty doesn't quite cut it. Pls correct me if i'm wrong.

The Champion System is a replacement for the Veteran System. Now once you hit Level 50, you have access to all of the endgame including Craglorn, Trials, Veteran Dungeons, Veteran Questing...you name it. All endgame content is gonna be scaled down to Level 50 when the Champion System releases, rather than being unlocked throughout the 12 Veteran Ranks.

You can, however, still earn Veteran Levels, but they won't work the way we know them today. As you level up in the Veteran Ranks, you're able to earn Champion Points. Champion Points are like Attribute Points, except you can invest them into all stats, not just Health, Magicka and Stamina. For example, I earn 1 Champion Point. I'm able to invest it into Critical Chance. Or should I invest it into Armor? Or Health/Magicka/Stamina recovery? You earn 1 Champion Point for every 100k XP that you earn post-level 50, and Champion Points are account-wide for all Level 50 characters.

Basically, when the Champion System releases around Update 5 or 6, Veteran Levels will just become means to earn Champion Points to make your characters stronger. Veteran Questing now has an incentive to complete and grinding in Craglorn is no more!

Hope this helped.

I honestly thank you for taking the time to reply!But I can't see exactly where the difficulty issue is beeing addressed.In fact the phrase "scaled down" doesn't sound really promising to me.But thats just me I guess.

NP that is just a quick copy and paste of a break down of an AMA video that was on reddit. It is a ways off so I wouldn't expect anything dramatic right off the bat.

AngryNord

I find the difficulty about how it should be.