What do you think?

Nathano

Blackwidow wrote: »

Look at the video at 1:45 to see what I mean by TES questing.

I don't feel like I am exploring in ESO. I'm just being lead from quest to quest, zone to zone.

In TES games I was always following my current quest and picking up other quests as I explore. I do the same thing in ESO.

The guy in the video appears to be saying the same thing as well. He said in other MMOs you wouldn't go explore a bandit camp because you don't have a quest for it, and that in ESO you would be encouraged to visit places like the camp because you could pick up a quest. That is exactly what happens now. If i'm strolling along and see a camp or some ruins that interest me, then I will go explore them because I know I will be able to pick up a quest when I get there.

Falmer

Its an MMO. No MMO is every going to compete with the quality and immersive factor of a SP game. People had highly unrealistic expectations if they thought an MMO was ever going to be better than a regular ES game.

That said, this is by far the best MMO I have played to date. Sure, there are a lot of things they could still improve upon, but its a great start.

Blackwidow

Nathano wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Look at the video at 1:45 to see what I mean by TES questing.

I don't feel like I am exploring in ESO. I'm just being lead from quest to quest, zone to zone.

In TES games I was always following my current quest and picking up other quests as I explore. I do the same thing in ESO.

The guy in the video appears to be saying the same thing as well. He said in other MMOs you wouldn't go explore a bandit camp because you don't have a quest for it, and that in ESO you would be encouraged to visit places like the camp because you could pick up a quest. That is exactly what happens now. If i'm strolling along and see a camp or some ruins that interest me, then I will go explore them because I know I will be able to pick up a quest when I get there.

I'm certainly not going to disagree with you. If you like the system as is, i'm glad for you.

It does not have the same feel for me at all. I feel very lead by the game.

Blackwidow

Falmer wrote: »

Its an MMO. No MMO is every going to compete with the quality and immersive factor of a SP game. People had highly unrealistic expectations if they thought an MMO was ever going to be better than a regular ES game.

I never expected better. I did expect the basic things that TES had. That is where it fell short for me, as a TES game.

That said, this is by far the best MMO I have played to date. Sure, there are a lot of things they could still improve upon, but its a great start.

It is a good MMO, but far from the best I have played.

Mazenia

I agree with everyone....

Mr.Turtlesworth

People need to understand this game was not made as an installment in the ES series. It is an mmo based off of the popular games. Much like Star Wars the old republic is based off of Star Wars.

Blackwidow

Mr.Turtlesworth wrote: »

People need to understand this game was not made as an installment in the ES series. It is an mmo based off of the popular games. Much like Star Wars the old republic is based off of Star Wars.

Do they? Do people need to understand that?

Why is that?

Did i give you the impression I did not know it was a MMO?

Nazon_Katts

People do understand, but people no like.

Mr.Turtlesworth

Blackwidow wrote: »

Mr.Turtlesworth wrote: »

People need to understand this game was not made as an installment in the ES series. It is an mmo based off of the popular games. Much like Star Wars the old republic is based off of Star Wars.

Do they? Do people need to understand that?

Why is that?

Did i give you the impression I did not know it was a MMO?

1. Yes they do
2. Yes they do
3. So people will stop complaining about problems that are present in almost every mmo to date.
4. Yes you did.

smeeprocketnub19_ESO

How is dueling part of a true TES game? I never even dueled NPCs in any TES game. I just snuck up on them and slit their throats.

Blackwidow

Mr.Turtlesworth wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Did i give you the impression I did not know it was a MMO?

4. Yes you did.

Then I think you might have a reading comprehension problem.

From my OP:

• I had envisioned what a TES MMO could be.
• Every single thing in this video can be done in a MMO.
• So, did ZOS get it all the concepts of TES that you wanted into your TES MMO?
• They did not start out to make a TES MMO.
• They made a cheap quick MMO that had TES on the cover of the box.

So people will stop complaining about problems that are present in almost every mmo to date.

If they did not know it was a MMO, why would they be complaining about a MMO?

If you want to use deception and hyperbole to make your points, feel free, just know it is a tool for the desperate.

BTW, I did not belittle you for your opinion of the game, I don't know why you feel you need to do this to me.

Dayv

I feel that the class system is really at the heart of what is making ESO a bad ES game. Once you've picked your class you are locked out of certain things forever. I think the reason they took this path is simply because other MMOs do that. There's nothing wrong with having a starting archetype but that shouldn't define your whole career.

GreySix

Falmer wrote: »

Its an MMO. No MMO is every going to compete with the quality and immersive factor of a SP game. People had highly unrealistic expectations if they thought an MMO was ever going to be better than a regular ES game.

... and many of us wanted instead a co-op TES game. ESO is as close as we could get to that.

... though it fell short of the mark, when developers included forced-solo dungeons in the darned main quest line. That's just insane.

It's a good bet that if folks could have cooperatively played Skyrim, Oblivion, or Morrowind, ESO would have had far fewer subscriptions.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

I could play skyrim for hours but with ESO i tended to shift to the more MMO aspects. ESO questing just isn't as fun as skyrim. The quests are very monotonous and restrictive and killing a tough mobs gives you one piece of gold and a trash item that probably won't fit in your bag anyway. The joy of completing the main quest was quickly turned to horror as I realized I'd have to grind through two very similar quest lines just to be effective in PvP.

So I stuck to the MMO aspects of the game and the PvP and started hating the PvE aspects completely. I didn't want it to be this way.

I remember way back in oblivion there was a castle addon that you could call home. Fighters stronghold or something in the Colovian highlands. I could just sit in my castle and fire arrows at critters all day. I don't feel "at home" anywhere in ESO - and its not for a lack of player housing. The mobs, dungeons, everything feels too rigid and on rails. Definitely not the open world I expected it to be.

AdamBourke

I don't care that they don't have underwater swimming, tbh,

There wasn't really that much underwater exploration in other TES games - when you went underwater there was generally very little to see. Even if you knew where things were it could take ages to find it. (I'm talking about Fin's Gleam, off the coast of Anvil).

Sometimes it was used well in dungeons, I will admit. But most of the time I only ever went underwater by accident.

The law system I would have liked to have seen implemented earlier though. Even if the criminal guilds weren't there. But it does sound like they're working on quite a complex system - so we'll see if turns out t be worth the wait! :-P.

Mousmoula

Well OP, I guess you also use some hyperbole to support your arguments or to make them seem as more important than they really are. I mean I understand your point of view (since I'm more of a TES games fan rather than a mmorpg's fan), I agree with some of it, but you lost me with the hyperbole with which you express (like your ocean description) or the general meaning of your text (which is: "This is not a TES game", if I understood correctly), with which I disagree.

I believe this game IS a TES game. It has/respects the Lore/History, it has/respects the Aesthetics/Atmoshere, it has/respects the General idea. What we have here is a real old argument that began since the release of Oblivion. An argument which is known to the fans of the series who started from the era of Morrowind. It's called the "This is not an ES game" argument. With the release of Oblivion a lot of the -then- hardcore fans of Morrowind argued that the Oblivion was not "A real ES game". The same happened with Skyrim (which btw I think is the most succesful of them all). Just to show you what I mean here's a list with the differences: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Differences_Between_Morrowind,_Oblivion,_and_Skyrim
Imagine that for every one of these differences someone would claim "this is not a real TES game"

Now, keep in mind that some of the changes/observations that you propose/make are already announced (like housing and law system), some will probably be implemented (like dueling -n p with that as long as it's optional,btw), some are totally subjective [like "The quest system was nothing like TES" observation, with which I absolutely 100% totally (hyperbole) disagree], some would be nice to have -and that's it, not game (or immersion) breaking- (like the underwater argument) and finally some would create more problems than solve, in case they were to be implemented (like "No true open world to explore", which is not totally true, btw).

I also agree with you that ESO is not a bad game (actually I believe it is a rather good one), but disagree with your pessimism ("Sadly, this could have been an EPIC game and fell short"). I personally believe that it still is highly possible for this game to become epic and that ZOS and their vision of ESO, after a really bad launch, is becoming better and better. And to those who believe that ESO shouldn't have lounched until it was ready 1-2 years later, I say: "yes, you're right, but thank God they launched it, so I can play a really good game until the EPIC one is ready".

PS. To the OP: This is not an "attack" or something. I just tried to disagree (to some point), in a polite way with your opinion. If I didn't believe that your post and comments belong in the "constructive critisism" category, I wouldn't even bother to answer. So, I apologize a priori in case I somehow offended you.

Blackwidow

Mousmoula wrote: »

Well OP, I guess you also use some hyperbole to support your arguments or to make them seem as more important than they really are. I mean I understand your point of view (since I'm more of a TES games fan rather than a mmorpg's fan), I agree with some of it, but you lost me with the hyperbole with which you express (like your ocean description) or the general meaning of your text (which is: "This is not a TES game", if I understood correctly), with which I disagree.

That was not hyperbole. You might want to look the word up.

I did hit the water with a thud because I was expecting to go under the water from where I jumped. I hit the surface and stopped suddenly.

I never said this was not a TES game. Obviously it is, it is on the title. However, it's design was way off from what a normal TES game could and should have been, even as a MMO.

No hyperbole.

I believe this game IS a TES game. It has/respects the Lore/History, it has/respects the Aesthetics/Atmoshere, it has/respects the General idea.

Let me quote myself from my OP:

" I truly believe that the graphics, TES visual world and action based combat system is the only thing that has kept ESO alive. "

Yes, it looks and feels like a TES on the surface.

What we have here is a real old argument that began since the release of Oblivion. An argument which is known to the fans of the series who started from the era of Morrowind. It's called the "This is not an ES game" argument.

With one big difference. I'm not saying it's not a TES game. I'm saying it could be a much better TES game.

PS. To the OP: This is not an "attack" or something. I just tried to disagree (to some point), in a polite way with your opinion. If I didn't believe that your post and comments belong in the "constructive critisism" category, I wouldn't even bother to answer. So, I apologize a priori in case I somehow offended you.

You did not offend me. I'm just not sure you understood me.

Blackwidow

AdamBourke wrote: »

I don't care that they don't have underwater swimming, tbh,

There wasn't really that much underwater exploration in other TES games - when you went underwater there was generally very little to see. Even if you knew where things were it could take ages to find it. (I'm talking about Fin's Gleam, off the coast of Anvil).

Sometimes it was used well in dungeons, I will admit. But most of the time I only ever went underwater by accident.

Admittedly, Skyrim took a lot away from underwater swimming. There was almost no point in being Argonian in Skyrim. Underwater breathing was not even needed.

I just never thought they would go one step further and take it away altogether.

I it so immersion breaking to me to not be able to break the surface. It is also one of the reasons i hate the personal bank system as it stands right now.

All 8 characters shares the same bank, even if they are from different factions.

Maybe they are friends?

Yet, they can not even mail stuff to each other. Yet, we can mail to everyone else.

I know you have to have immersion breaking stuff in MMOs, but some stuff can be avoided.

Nazon_Katts

Anything after Morrowind is not worthy of the TES title. So this game falls in line just nicely and keeps true to the devolution. They're all still great games, but not nearly close to what they could have truly been.

I'm kinda scared about what they might want to serve us with Fallout Online, TES VI and Fallout IV, but you and I and them can be sure, we'll buy it anyways. The next one after that, maybe not. But who am I kidding.

Blackwidow

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Anything after Morrowind is not worthy of the TES title. So this game falls in line just nicely and keeps true to the devolution. They're all still great games, but not nearly close to what they could have truly been.

I'm kinda scared about what they might want to serve us with Fallout Online, TES VI and Fallout IV, but you and I and them can be sure, we'll buy it anyways. The next one after that, maybe not. But who am I kidding.

TES VI and Fallout IV, yep most likely. Would I ever buy ESO 2? No.

Nazon_Katts

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Anything after Morrowind is not worthy of the TES title. So this game falls in line just nicely and keeps true to the devolution. They're all still great games, but not nearly close to what they could have truly been.

I'm kinda scared about what they might want to serve us with Fallout Online, TES VI and Fallout IV, but you and I and them can be sure, we'll buy it anyways. The next one after that, maybe not. But who am I kidding.

TES VI and Fallout IV, yep most likely. Would I ever buy ESO 2? No.

You say that now, but wait for it. Maybe it's a sandbox. Buggy and imbalanced, but with a whole lot of sand. Now that would be tempting, wouldn't it?

Blackwidow

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Blackwidow wrote: »

Nazon_Katts wrote: »

Anything after Morrowind is not worthy of the TES title. So this game falls in line just nicely and keeps true to the devolution. They're all still great games, but not nearly close to what they could have truly been.

I'm kinda scared about what they might want to serve us with Fallout Online, TES VI and Fallout IV, but you and I and them can be sure, we'll buy it anyways. The next one after that, maybe not. But who am I kidding.

TES VI and Fallout IV, yep most likely. Would I ever buy ESO 2? No.

You say that now, but wait for it. Maybe it's a sandbox. Buggy and imbalanced, but with a whole lot of sand. Now that would be tempting, wouldn't it?

If made by ZOS, not even a little. If Bethesda made it, I would try it.

Shunravi

@Blackwidow‌ could you elaborate on your feelings about the questing a bit? More than simply referring to 1:45. I for one have slaughtered bandit camps and found quests, interesting lore, and useful items. I'm not in disagreement with your opinion, and I know where you are coming from, I just would like elaboration on your personal experience. without having to comb through your extensive post history.

Blackwidow

It is not one quest here or situation there. It is the system as a whole.

I feel very lead from one zone to the next. Well, we are actually lead from one zone to the next, so that really is happening.

It is about reverse questing. I want to find a "Sword of Breoi" in a cave and have no clue there is a quest for it. If I go to town and talk to the bar keeper, he might tell me a rumor of a guy named Breoi who is down on his luck because he lost his family sword. That might give me a quest to go find him.

Right now, all the quests are set up with arrows above peoples heads or items. There is no mystery or the need to explore. Everything is laid out, before you can find anything cool.

Like I said before, even the really special places that have the eyeballs on the map are already shown, so we can't "find" them.

In skyrim, the arrows might show you where you need to go for a quest, but it did not hand hold you like ESO does.

I think it's the lack of surprise I hate the most. In skyrim, there were probably over 1,000 caves, huts, broken down forts, etc to explore. In ESO there is a very small amount of these and in most cases you have to be on a quest to go into these places.

In TES, you are free to explore everywhere, even with no quest. You might even be doing a quest in a TES game and not even know it until you meet someone later on.

ie. A guard says, "I need a clan of vampires cleared out of a ruin west of town."

You respond, "I killed them all already"

In ESO you would need to be on the quest to kill the vampires before you could even go into that ruin.

In ESO, I can not even go into a lot of places unless I already have the quest. That is not how TES works.

Exploration is the fun, questing is mostly a byproduct of exploration in TES games.

In ESO we have to get the quests, and then go do them.

Mousmoula

1. The way you describe it, is hyperbolic. The fact that you describe something not so important (at best) as being important is hyperbolic. The hyperbole is not in what you say, but in how you say it, why you say it and how you use it. You are exaggerating (thus being hyperbolic) in order to serve your purpose (support your arguments). Btw, (you wouldn't know ofc) saying to a Greek to look a greek word up is quite ironic. And please don't tell me to look the word irony up, too.

2.Lore, History, Aesthetics,Atmosphere, General idea =/= graphics, visual world, action based combat.
Also, Lore, History, Aesthetics,Atmosphere, General idea =/= surface. They are the spine.
Through the years technology becomes better and better. The graphics, the visual materials, the combat system, etc may change (Like, what happened from Morrowind to Skyrim). A game should be faithful to Lore, History, Aesthetics,Atmosphere, General idea to guarantee its true continuity. (Now it's my turn to tell you to look up these words and btw please don't tell me to look up for History, Aesthetics,Atmosphere, General idea. They are all greek, too)

3. I'm not going to play with words here. When you say: "They made a cheap quick MMO that had TES on the cover of the box" or "They did not really have a real TES game as their priority" I understand you probably don't feel like this is a TES game. If I understood incorrectly, I apologize. But, still, I agree that this could be a better TES game. The epic one^^.

4. Strangely enough, I feel the same thing

Blackwidow

Mousmoula wrote: »

The fact that you describe something not so important (at best) as being important is hyperbolic.

What is important to me might not be as important to you.

However, you still do not understand what hyperbole means, so I suggest you stop using that word.

Have a nice day.