The danger of mondays changes

Audigy

Before I start I want to point out that the whole purpose of the thread is to raise awareness and not to flame. Therefore I would kindly ask those who reply to not flame others, but stay constructive in their posts.

Reasons for the thread

I do play MMO´s now for over 15 years, the first was Ultima online and I have to say its still the best for me. Over the years I saw many good things in MMO´s, but also many bad ones.

Especially in the past 5 or 6 years, the bad ones have taken over the MMO world due false decisions.
Many publishers don't see far into the future, but only into the present. They think that fixing or tweaking the game to address the present helps, while they should actually look further ahead.

With the announced changes by ZO I see pretty much pitch black for ESO and will try to raise awareness of that. To those that haven't heard about these yet, Jess announced that the VR content will be nerfed, nerfed in such a way that it suits the non VR content.
While she said it will be a bit harder, we can all guess that a bit wont be enough to justify grouping up or learning the basics of MMO´s.

What we can learn from the past

One of the big companies Blizzard has thought just like ZO does now. They thought that by lowering the incentive to group, the required personal skill and the amount of social activities, players would return - as obviously everyone seems to be afraid of player interaction and dyeing.

WOW once had 13 million active accounts at the start of WOTLK, today WOW is down to about 7 million. Most players I met in the first 3 years have quit and those were mainly adults with jobs, family and other hobbies.

LOTRO is another example. It was based on social interaction right from the start. You had real RP opportunities like sitting on a fire, making music. But also fighters had to overcome big challenges in the gaming world.
At one point the publisher felt that more people leave than stay, so the content was made a lot easier and more based on solo adventuring. While solo adventuring doesn't sound to bad, it removed everything that was important for the LOTRO success.

Both games lost many players in the process, their high sub numbers from the peak could never be reached again.

Is ZO in danger of the same loss in subs due the changes? I think they are, as everything that was promised in pre release, is on jeopardy right now.

What do we lose?

One of the main aspects in an MMO has always been that people choose these games to experience a breathing world and a lovely community. Nobody plays an MMO to exclude himself from society. This would be a bit like joining a social club at university, but never going to the meetings - it just doesn't fit.

Right now we have content for pretty much every type of gamer that MMO´s inhabit.

You have the hardcore raider and dungeon grinder, while a small group they are still those that undoubtedly pay the most money over time due their dedication to the game. They compete in leader boards and gear grinds, always trying to be the best of their kind.
These people wont be affected by the changes, raids and dungeons stay as they are.

A huge group however is affected and I like to call them casuals. I am one of these Casuals who have a horrible reputation for the wrong reasons. We don't mind a challenge, we don't mind to group what we mind are raids and dungeons that influence or better said dictate our RL.
For us its not easy to come online at a specific time, to stay online for a specific amount of hours just to raid. Therefore we rely on content that is not based on these large group activities.

VR´s for us were the perfect replacement for what hardcores have. Content that we can experience solo but also with a friend or two. We can log whenever we want, but still feel like we achieved something after completion.

In future this all will be gone and we will either sacrifice our RL to join trials or dungeons, or we will just see that this is once again not a game for us anymore. I base that assumption mainly on the fact that ZO has not yet released anything appropriate for non raiders at maximum VR. They also have not yet announced anything for non raiders, leaving me to believe that nothing will actually come in the next few months.


You could now argue that there is a massive social & RP system available, but honestly it isn't. We do have no housing, no shop keeper system, no real crafting system that involves solving puzzles for new recipes etc.

There is only VR and Raid content, nothing else and by the removal of the VR content, the whole momentum will shift towards raid or die.


Play as you want?

ZO shipped with that phrase, "play as you want to play". This however will not be applicable anymore after the nerf.

One reason is that the choice is gone. In future you can not choose between raid or challenging solo & small group content, as the quest´s are simply put gone or were not even there in first place. Our players on VR 12 have raised that concern many times already, they just have nothing to do that isn't based on a trial or dungeon. By nerfing VR´s more and more people will get there, faster than you can supply content for them.

Secondly, if you join a raid, you will be asked to have a specific spec, item set and TS. Players will pressure you and if you don't do what they say, you are OUT!

The freedom of play will be gone completely and so far nothing has been announced to compensate for this.


Can we adjust and learn?

Someone might say that we should just adjust to raid or die content, after all it seems to work for WOW with their 6 million subs left.

While this is in theory true, the consequences of raid or die are to be found in the detail.

The first aspect in raid or die MMO´s has always been the rotten community. If you don't need anyone until you raid, then you simply put start to develop a huge EGO. Why care about others, if you don't need them? The downside of this has been mentioned a lot at this forum, people will classify others simply by DPS meters, Gearscores, their spec or achievement points.

Nobody will group with a stranger who he doesn't know, that's why rating the stranger is what matters and soon everyone in this game will be only a number of many. You will be called "healer", "Noob" many times instead of your actual characters name after something went wrong.

Another aspect is, that the game will shift towards a "queue button" society. People will no longer adventure the open world and the thousands of hours invested into that landscape by the Dev´s will be wasted, something no Dev will like for sure. Besides that, players will be put into a premade box, a dungeon or raid with a few encounters and this is all we will do for months and months to go.

Undoubtly some will try to adjust and play that system, but will everyone? Will we win more than we lose?

If we talk about adjusting to a system we must look at the possibility to do so.

For an experienced MMO player like me, the transition from an open world MMO to a dungeon grinder is a lot easier than for someone who did never raid or do dungeons in an MMO.

For me its all about finding time, time I don't have now but in theory that would be everything that is required.

However, someone who has limited MMO experience or none at all that transition will be very difficult.

The biggest problem will actually be that they don't learn anywhere how to group up. A good MMO always offers you the chance to learn by doing, that's why MMOs give you group opportunity's while leveling up. If these group opportunity's are now removed and this is what happens if VR´s are lowered to suit every solo adventure independently of skill, then nobody of these inexperienced people will learn how to play in a group.

This will lead to big issues once they actually queue for a dungeon or trial. They will get there without any knowledge, but meet players with a lot of this. Since most players wont accept that "new breed", the kick button will be abused many times so that in the end the player who wanted to try raiding wont even be able to.

You could now argue that this is what guilds are for and sure they are. But how do you want to find like minded players if you don't meet anyone during your level up or VR content? I don't know about you, but I always found my guild members by playing with them first and not by applying to forums of strangers.


Last but not least does raiding and dungeon grouping require a bit more than just hitting a button and waiting. Your group members will determine how good you must be and I can assure you that they will demand a lot of you.
But what they demand you can simply put never learn, as there is no environment to do so. You are pretty much put into a pool full of sharks and you must survive there and this is never easy.

When WOW removed the difficulty in leveling the quality of raid dungeons had to be lowered, as people simply put lacked the skill of handling their own class.
Similar might and must happen at ESO, but it wont help those that need help. The demands will stay high, as people will measure others by their own skill and not the demands of the dungeon.

If we refuse?

If players refuse to raid, then they might be "satisfied" with daily quest content which they can farm for a pony. But is this honestly what you want in an MMO? To farm 10 quests for a few months so you can ride a new horse?

That ZO has not announced any content yet which isn't based on raid or die bothers me a lot and it bothers me even more after the announcement in regards of the VR content nerf.

My question is and I am sure the question of many, what will we do in ESO in 2 or three months? Is it really coming down to either you raid or you farm for a pony? Are pet battles around the corner too and will open world pvp suffer like open world questing did and we get an Arena?

I don't know about you, but for me MMO´s are something else and I wish ESO would stick to their roots and original design. It was a refreshing experience so far, a great community and you really made good friends while playing.

While its too late to change the nerf, I still want to raise my voice and my concerns over this matter and this is what I just did. It may be a small step for loyal ESO customers, but a step that we all need to do if we want ESO to be successful.

There are many polls in regards of VR content, in regards of challenging VR 12 content for non raiders and the danger of adding Arena content - don't ignore these concerns because of a vocal minority that has a different idea about MMO´s than you and we have.

Thank you!

pong

to summarize we need bubble chat

Surinen

MMO, MMO, MMO, MMO, MMO this, MMO that.

this should be first and foremost TES game turned online, not an MMO: TES flavour.

to me Online aspect of this game should limit itself to the living world. no forced ('encouraged) grouping.

grouping should be only for socialising reasons.

every dungeon/trial should have its solo (with an option to invite friends) version for those who wish to explore lore and gather shards

the best items in the game should be obtainable through lore important long solo quest chains (with an option to invite friends).

I'm not interested in making 'friends'(big word), starting long term relations or being forced to play with the people I do not know.

Shae

I play MMO to play with other players and for the difficulty & challenge.
If the VR content will be nerfed, i'll leave this game.
It was for the same reason, that i left my last MMO (easy game, don't need to play with other)

surinen wrote:

every dungeon/trial should have its solo

No

I'm a casual player and i play with 2 friends in the VR since the start of the game. I'm veteran 9 now, and i like this game.

Surinen

Shae wrote: »

surinen wrote:

every dungeon/trial should have its solo

No

I'm a casual player and i play with 2 friends in the VR since the start of the game. I'm veteran 9 now, and i like this game.

then play with them. nobody stops ZOS from making phases for parties: the more players you have the tougher it becomes but rewards stay the same.

I'm a TES player and I want to play TES, true to its roots.

personally, I don't want to play with other people. they are just background, part of the living world. exactly how I imagine TES: Online.

Shae

it's not TES, it's TESO, a MMORPG, an online game, it's not a solo RPG.

Ninnghizhidda

First of all ZoS only hinted at what they are planning to do. Up to this point every discussion here has been speculative.

Perhaps we should first wait and see what they have in mind, at least with this first installment of changes.

The fact that "VR content" is in need of some fine-tuning remains, and especially the issue with the "trash mobs" and their powers. At the very least, and because people seem to have rather short memories... Anyone actually remembers exactly how VR mobs felt before some certain patch, and how after it? Just saying.

Surinen

Shae wrote: »

it's not TES, it's TESO, a MMORPG, an online game, it's not a solo RPG.

indeed, it is The Elder Scrolls: Online. MMORPG - massively multiplayer online role-playing game. I see no "G" for 'group' there: MMOGRPG. What you speak about is your experience baggage from the previous MMO games. alone MMORPG does not mean anything beyond its wording.

if not for TES then this game would not get even 1/4 of its popularity. It is not abnormal to expect TES in the TES game. Online might and should be only a setting.

Dayv

OP, why not stop worrying and see how it turns out, it's happening whether you like it or not so you may well stop envisioning doomsday scenarios and wait a few hours to see what changes are actually happening.

kevlarto_ESO

ESO is one of the first mmo's in a long time that lets my toon feel like it lives in the world and not just playing thtough it, I just turned vr8, I run with two friends every day we play for a few hours, we take part in everything the game offers, so far, we pvp, we take time to fish even, we explore, we are not hardcore players, some might say casuals, depends on what you consider casual, we call ourselves core players, my friends and I have played mmo's since meridain59,

Early on in a social game, solo play was never even a word you heard, I think this is something that comes from the console generation, I really don't know, I see nothing wrong with some solo options in a social game, I think the mmo as we have known it in the past are a dying genre in the next few years, and most likely gamers like myself will be moving on as well.
But until then I am going to enjoy ESO, as it is the best online game I have played in a very long time, at least for me and my friends.

hamon

well what the OP doesnt touch on in his one sided review of other MMO's is

1/ lotro at no point had levelling content as needlessly hard as vet mode here
2/ WoW at no point had levelling content as needlessy hard as vet mode here.
3/ ESO has as many dungeons now as wow or lotro had at this stage of the game.

saying that vet mode is a great opportunity for grouping and thus making it more solo friendly is a big loss is not genuine. Vet mode in its present form has actually made grouping less possible in vet zones because its clearly been utterly regected by vast numbers of folk who are choosing not to play there and are just levelling up in craglorn or pvp.

so making it less horrible would actually encourage folk to go there and thus increase the chances of grouping,

i was vet 9 when craglorn hit, and the immediate and severe drop off in folk in the vet zones was undeniable as soon as folk actually had an alternative means to level.
this was a damning verdict on vet mode in it's present form. The masses voted with their feet and chose not to play the zones.
how anyone can argue that the vet zones are fine in their current form is beyond me.. its complete denial of what is obvious.

Audigy

Surinen wrote: »

MMO, MMO, MMO, MMO, MMO this, MMO that.

this should be first and foremost TES game turned online, not an MMO: TES flavour.

to me Online aspect of this game should limit itself to the living world. no forced ('encouraged) grouping.

grouping should be only for socialising reasons.

every dungeon/trial should have its solo (with an option to invite friends) version for those who wish to explore lore and gather shards

the best items in the game should be obtainable through lore important long solo quest chains (with an option to invite friends).

I'm not interested in making 'friends'(big word), starting long term relations or being forced to play with the people I do not know.

MMO implies that you meet other people, that's why it has the massive multiplayer online description. What you seek is a different game and I don't understand why your wish should change a whole genre that exists like that for almost 20 years now.

To support the massive multiplayer online idea several ways are possible:

1. optional and forced Group content

This is what VR offers, you can group up and quest, while you can of course also try it solo and unless you encounter world bosses you should get along ok. If ZO really lowers the difficulty to what 1-50 is, then grouping will be a burden and not a gift anymore.
I see this from the perspective of a tank and healer. If the content is as easy as until 50, then I pretty much have nothing to do in this game. Nobody will need a heal or a tank, I will feel like a stupid NPC that tags along and doesn't help or do anything useful to my group.
Another option are dungeons and trials, these however have the disadvantage of being forced and to have quite some impact on the RL if you do it in a guild environment and not with randoms.

2. Social content

Another idea is content like at Ultima online or other MMO´s. For instance, players can open a shop and sell their goods. Players can build a house and invite others over.
Players can engage world encounters with hundreds of others to defend their hometown or city and / or craft weapons to strengthen their support lines.
Besides that you could become a barber, a city council member that raises the taxes or hands out tasks for adventurers.

None of this is currently in the game as you might have noticed and so far nothing has been announced either.

I fully understand that there are people who play MMO´s and don't want to raid, I am one of them due my RL situation. However, to play an MMO and to expect to never see anyone, to never play with anyone is naïve. Not the genre has to adjust to you, you have to adjust to the genre if you want to play in it.

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

First of all ZoS only hinted at what they are planning to do. Up to this point every discussion here has been speculative.

Perhaps we should first wait and see what they have in mind, at least with this first installment of changes.

The fact that "VR content" is in need of some fine-tuning remains, and especially the issue with the "trash mobs" and their powers. At the very least, and because people seem to have rather short memories... Anyone actually remembers exactly how VR mobs felt before some certain patch, and how after it? Just saying.

Nothing wrong with your reply and I agree. My thread is more a "what could happen if", to raise awareness before the boy fell into the well. The fact that it was announced as "close to 1-50" and for "solo" raises a concern that many of us are sharing.

To me it would not be an issue if VR would increase from 1 to 10 slowly step by step, so that VR 10 or 12 for that matter is as tough as now. But this doesn't seem to happen and this will cause a lot of problems in the long run.

Another idea could had been to just give us the whole VR content at 50 in an optional environment, so that those who don't like to do it don't need to and still get to VR 12 by just doing the AVs or pvp and dungeons. Many already do so, but its not an official feature either so many believe that if they cant get through VR 1-10, that they then also cant experience Craglorn.

In my opinion changes yes, but not a full removal of a feature that was announced as a "big goody" before release. While VR wont be gone, it could be obsolete as an "endgame content" and if this happens then we need a replacement and this is so far not in sight and that's in the end the whole point that I try to make.

Audigy

well what the OP doesnt touch on in his one sided review of other MMO's is

2/ WoW at no point had levelling content as needlessy hard as vet mode here.

Don't lie please, this is a constructive thread and not a flame thread.

What you say about WOW is wrong! We had zones with Elite encounters that were impossible to do solo unless you were a kiting hunter or did out level them by a few levels and even then it was too hard at times. Good examples for this would be Arathi, Lakeshire, Hinterlands, Badlands ...

It was so tough that even a duo couldn't do the final bosses and very often guilds were found by playing through these elite zones. At ESO you can duo pretty much everything so its already easier than at WOW.

so making it less horrible would actually encourage folk to go there and thus increase the chances of grouping,

Tel me, how is someone supposed to group if its not even needed? Did you play WOW recently? There is no incentive to group, so I don't see how one should come up at ESO. From 1-50 grouping almost never happens as its too easy, I tagged a long with a friend and he did never need any healing. I felt stupid for being a healer and useless.

i was vet 9 when craglorn hit, and the immediate and severe drop off in folk in the vet zones was undeniable as soon as folk actually had an alternative means to level.
this was a damning verdict on vet mode in it's present form. The masses voted with their feet and chose not to play the zones.

You again don't see the truth behind this. Craglorn gives more XP, more rewards that's why people went there. Of course its easier to do these events by just standing there while others do the work.

VR zones are empty because

A. People are not there yet (most are below VR 5)
B. Rewards are better elsewhere

Cogo

@Audigy

Very good post! It is very scary that when ESO made such a good foundation of a MMO, to break it for only suit one group, who will be bored in a few months.

I agree with you.
But we do need to see monday what happens. And even then. We need to see for a week or two what it means. If there are no more nerfs.......then ESO can still be for ALL.

The big worry for me isn't this nerf. Unless it makes you able to easy solo 3 mobs at the same time at vet 1 areas. You CAN, but you need skill, and play!

My worry is the next step and the next. WoW showed, what happens when you take that road. In the end, its like you say, they remove ESO. Even in time, end game. You dont think those who wants easy, will keep asking for easy? There is no stop for easy. Again. Look at WoW. 7 Million players still claims its to hard to level and want to buy a high lvl char. Here you go sais Blizzard!

ESO offers YOUR way. That does include high end game encounters and raids. Which Zenimax need to work on!

However, what most people here seams to forget. Choose your way, does NOT only mean high end content. Means ALOT. To much to list here. But remember what ESO core is. Choose your way, nothing is right or wrong.

Balance problems will be fixed. Takes time.....

And guys, those who are at Vet 12, who very much can take on the challenges or more if there was any. There need to be more!

Just wait! There's a HUGE group at vet 1-3. You just got up there to fast!

Vet 12 players who wants more players at high lvl, so they can do the HARD stuff. Ask yourself. Do you want a player, who

* Speeded through up to Vet 12, because everything is easy, know nothing about skills.
* Cant handle switching skill bars in action
* Cant spell the word Adapt
* Do not understand there is more then 1 way to beat a boss.
* Who watched youtube. read guides and think they can kill the hardest encounter on the first try.
* A player who screams FAIL and leaves after 1-2 wipes.
* Quits ESO when "his" build gets balanced, instead of adapting

I am not just talking dooms day. This IS what happend to wow. And others games.

You all know it can take days or weeks before you beat a REAL hard encounter.

Is it not true, that you want players who, might took time to get vet 12, but when they get there, know teamwork, understand wipes. Discussing what to do next. Understanding "builds" since balance and new skills/spells will come.

ESO has the potential to grow an MMO, with players in all kinds of builds, interests and levels. All over. Not just high lvl. And alts.

eliisra

I just want them to fix the bloody fps drops and lagspikes by Monday.

Want my guild mates to come back to the game and back to PvP. I want to play a game that runs smoothly again. That's all I care about.

Whatever they do with normal mobs in zones I already cleared twice, I could care less. As long as they don't break more things related to performance or create more bugs, than go head.

Fairydragon3

didn't wow lose a few mil because they kicked off all the people from China?

Surinen

Audigy wrote: »

MMO implies that you meet other people, that's why it has the massive multiplayer online description. What you seek is a different game and I don't understand why your wish should change a whole genre that exists like that for almost 20 years now.

yes, and they should stay for me exactly as this, living background. meeting them should never forcefully lead to entering group nor put me in a situation where efficience of the group casts ahdow upon my gameplay. I seek TES first and foremost. I have not played many mmos, but if the grouping was forced ('encouraged') in the most of them for the last 20 years, then the whole genre is an abomination in my eyes. one that threatens TES very spirit. ESO should redefine MMO, not for the sake of high hideals, but simply to stay truth to its long, long roots.

hamon

Audigy wrote: »

well what the OP doesnt touch on in his one sided review of other MMO's is

2/ WoW at no point had levelling content as needlessy hard as vet mode here.

Don't lie please, this is a constructive thread and not a flame thread.

What you say about WOW is wrong! We had zones with Elite encounters that were impossible to do solo unless you were a kiting hunter or did out level them by a few levels and even then it was too hard at times. Good examples for this would be Arathi, Lakeshire, Hinterlands, Badlands ...

we,re talking about levelling content not elite zones or anything like that

It was so tough that even a duo couldn't do the final bosses and very often guilds were found by playing through these elite zones. At ESO you can duo pretty much everything so its already easier than at WOW.

so making it less horrible would actually encourage folk to go there and thus increase the chances of grouping,

Tel me, how is someone supposed to group if its not even needed? Did you play WOW recently? There is no incentive to group, so I don't see how one should come up at ESO. From 1-50 grouping almost never happens as its too easy, I tagged a long with a friend and he did never need any healing. I felt stupid for being a healer and useless.

how are folk to group? simple if you prefer playing grouped ask about you will find others who enjoy grouping to make the content easier / faster. HOWEVER this only works if you get folk in the zones. and they arn't at present cos most folk it seems would rather do anything else than play in vet zones.

i was vet 9 when craglorn hit, and the immediate and severe drop off in folk in the vet zones was undeniable as soon as folk actually had an alternative means to level.
this was a damning verdict on vet mode in it's present form. The masses voted with their feet and chose not to play the zones.

You again don't see the truth behind this. Craglorn gives more XP, more rewards that's why people went there. Of course its easier to do these events by just standing there while others do the work.

VR zones are empty because

A. People are not there yet (most are below VR 5)
B. Rewards are better elsewhere

you assume people would rather do craglorn simply for the rewards but refuse to accept its because they find vet zones horrible. it's probably both factors in truth.

but of course you act like you know everyones mind cos yet again elitist attitudes are coupled with a blinkered inability to see other peoples point of view.

hence statements like somehow folk in craglorn by choice do so to let others do work while they stand doing nothing. but if everyone did do that nobody would do anything.

Vet zones are failing thats undeniable in the lack of folk being there. yet again you assume that its cos most folk havent reached vet 5... i would suggest thats complete crap. what is probably happening is folk are parking folk before vet 5 and playing alts. once again to avoid doing higher vet modes cos they simply don't like their present condition

Cogo

Ninnghizhidda wrote: »

First of all ZoS only hinted at what they are planning to do. Up to this point every discussion here has been speculative.

Perhaps we should first wait and see what they have in mind, at least with this first installment of changes.

The fact that "VR content" is in need of some fine-tuning remains, and especially the issue with the "trash mobs" and their powers. At the very least, and because people seem to have rather short memories... Anyone actually remembers exactly how VR mobs felt before some certain patch, and how after it? Just saying.

I don't know what Vet 1 MOBS was before 2 weeks ago. I agree, we need to wait and see!

I DO know there is no "trash" mobs in ESO. There is a world with all kinds of creatures, characters etc. But "trash" mobs? They do not exist in ESO.

I think "trash" mobs is one thing we all learned from other MMOs.
In ESO it IS hard to take on 3 mobs. It should be! You can do it, don't have to be a master, but you DO need to play and make an effort.

When I group for questing and exploring. 3 mobs are almost easy. Just by being 2.

The problem there is not the game. Its the players choose to take on creatures and doing it alone. Which is a slow way to get exp if that is your goal.

There are A LOT of ways to get "fast" exp. Players just need find out how ;-) NOT talking exploits.

I think, a lot of us needs to unlearn a few things. Trash mobs, "grinding", Best build, anything static really. Forget it. If any....ESO is one of the most living MMOs. Who keeps adding things!

Talrenos

OMG, massive wall of text. Very little content actually, its just a huge opinion.