Overreaction to the veteran nerf announcement.

Phinix1 · July 2014

I just wanted to apologize for overreacting to this announcement, and to anyone here that I might have offended in doing so. I realize that I go a bit too far when making general statements that are implied to encompass everyone who thinks the veteran zones could be toned down a bit. Honestly, that was not my intention.

Try to understand, I don't watch TV, I don't have an active Netflix subscription, and I have no interest in social mainstays due to personal complications (therefore not married, not seeing anyone anymore, don't have kids, don't really plan to), so when I am not reading, writing, coding, modding, working, or doing something outside (hiss! the sun!), I pretty much have the internet, and whatever online game I happen to be enjoying at the moment.

Beyond that, the Elder Scrolls genre is sacred ground for me. I have modded as a hobby since Morrowind (as Sgaileach1 and Phinix), and the idea of an online addition to the series was kind of a big deal for me. ZOS had very high expectations to meet and I feel they indeed have met them, which made it all the more distressing to hear such a turn around months into the public release of the game.

It just gave me a sense that maybe the company was a little desperate to be considering such a radical restructuring of the core design model of the game this far in, particularly when the split in the community seems about 50/50 in the issue.

But mainly, I was immediately reminded of all the online titles I have enjoyed over the last decade ruined by the instant gratification crowd demanding nerfs and handouts for everything with no effort required, skipping content, rushing to the boss, leaving people behind, and I guess it just struck a nerve.

In the end after more careful contemplation (and getting trolled a ton on the forums which I probably deserved) the solution I came up with was to simply add a toggle where you could play the content either as it is now, in a phase group with all the other people who choose to, or as they are planning to adjust it on Monday, with all the people who choose to play it that way.

They could possibly change the loot tables a bit to have a chance of more or better drops if you opt to play it as it is, as an incentive to try the content as originally intended. Maybe they could give you a better drop rate on enchanting glyphs for example, so they didn't have to make it too much easier to level.

Anyway, I think that is the best way to go. It requires minimal effort and dev time, and avoids the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario of upsetting one half of the community or the other.

So again, sorry if I offended anyone, and I hope to see the game continue to improve. Even if they do opt to go through with this change globally, I trust them enough to be fair about it so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and stick with it, because I really do love the game.

On the upside, it WILL be nice to see more people around again. If this brings back good people that aren't of that dreaded mindset I described (the WoW crowd) who maybe didn't feel like becoming elite gamers just to play the content, then I welcome it.

I would hate to think I had contributed to driving anyone away, which is mostly why I wanted to post this.

ozgod22_eso · July 2014

What overreaction?

Phantax · July 2014

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

Kulthax · July 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttPwA8hitoY

Alphashado · July 2014

Takes a big set of balls to admit when you were wrong or out of line. Especially in front of hundreds of people. Cooler heads prevail. We all loose our cool sometimes. It happens. But at the end of the day, we often discover that anger and insults get us nowhere.

So kudos for the much appreciated and respected apology.

Guppet · July 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I just wanted to apologize for overreacting to this announcement, and to anyone here that I might have offended in doing so. I realize that I go a bit too far when making general statements that are implied to encompass everyone who thinks the veteran zones could be toned down a bit. Honestly, that was not my intention.

Try to understand, I don't watch TV, I don't have an active Netflix subscription, and I have no interest in social mainstays due to personal complications (therefore not married, not seeing anyone anymore, don't have kids, don't really plan to), so when I am not reading, writing, coding, modding, working, or doing something outside (hiss! the sun!), I pretty much have the internet, and whatever online game I happen to be enjoying at the moment.

Beyond that, the Elder Scrolls genre is sacred ground for me. I have modded as a hobby since Morrowind (as Sgaileach1 and Phinix), and the idea of an online addition to the series was kind of a big deal for me. ZOS had very high expectations to meet and I feel they indeed have met them, which made it all the more distressing to hear such a turn around months into the public release of the game.

It just gave me a sense that maybe the company was a little desperate to be considering such a radical restructuring of the core design model of the game this far in, particularly when the split in the community seems about 50/50 in the issue.

But mainly, I was immediately reminded of all the online titles I have enjoyed over the last decade ruined by the instant gratification crowd demanding nerfs and handouts for everything with no effort required, skipping content, rushing to the boss, leaving people behind, and I guess it just struck a nerve.

In the end after more careful contemplation (and getting trolled a ton on the forums which I probably deserved) the solution I came up with was to simply add a toggle where you could play the content either as it is now, in a phase group with all the other people who choose to, or as they are planning to adjust it on Monday, with all the people who choose to play it that way.

They could possibly change the loot tables a bit to have a chance of more or better drops if you opt to play it as it is, as an incentive to try the content as originally intended. Maybe they could give you a better drop rate on enchanting glyphs for example, so they didn't have to make it too much easier to level.

Anyway, I think that is the best way to go. It requires minimal effort and dev time, and avoids the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario of upsetting one half of the community or the other.

So again, sorry if I offended anyone, and I hope to see the game continue to improve. Even if they do opt to go through with this change globally, I trust them enough to be fair about it so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and stick with it, because I really do love the game.

On the upside, it WILL be nice to see more people around again. If this brings back good people that aren't of that dreaded mindset I described (the WoW crowd) who maybe didn't feel like becoming elite gamers just to play the content, then I welcome it.

I would hate to think I had contributed to driving anyone away, which is mostly why I wanted to post this.

It's big of you to acknowledge you may have gone about things the wrong way. No one dislikes people being passionate sbout a game they love, you did get too elitist and created too many posts though. Guess we will see what they do and then react to that, but try not to over react.

I do think that you need to recognise that no game should be balanced for the amount of time you personally put into it, you are a tiny tiny minority, since you admit to spending all your free time in game or online.

Now this is not meant to be patronising, it probably will come across as that. You could really do with using some of the passion you clearly have to try and get some other things going in your life. I would seriously suggest getting into exercise, it seriously helps my concentration levels,especially in FPS games, it's even quite addictive, when you get used to it, maybe you already do that though, far too few do though.

Phantax · July 2014

Guppet wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I just wanted to apologize for overreacting to this announcement, and to anyone here that I might have offended in doing so. I realize that I go a bit too far when making general statements that are implied to encompass everyone who thinks the veteran zones could be toned down a bit. Honestly, that was not my intention.

Try to understand, I don't watch TV, I don't have an active Netflix subscription, and I have no interest in social mainstays due to personal complications (therefore not married, not seeing anyone anymore, don't have kids, don't really plan to), so when I am not reading, writing, coding, modding, working, or doing something outside (hiss! the sun!), I pretty much have the internet, and whatever online game I happen to be enjoying at the moment.

Beyond that, the Elder Scrolls genre is sacred ground for me. I have modded as a hobby since Morrowind (as Sgaileach1 and Phinix), and the idea of an online addition to the series was kind of a big deal for me. ZOS had very high expectations to meet and I feel they indeed have met them, which made it all the more distressing to hear such a turn around months into the public release of the game.

It just gave me a sense that maybe the company was a little desperate to be considering such a radical restructuring of the core design model of the game this far in, particularly when the split in the community seems about 50/50 in the issue.

But mainly, I was immediately reminded of all the online titles I have enjoyed over the last decade ruined by the instant gratification crowd demanding nerfs and handouts for everything with no effort required, skipping content, rushing to the boss, leaving people behind, and I guess it just struck a nerve.

In the end after more careful contemplation (and getting trolled a ton on the forums which I probably deserved) the solution I came up with was to simply add a toggle where you could play the content either as it is now, in a phase group with all the other people who choose to, or as they are planning to adjust it on Monday, with all the people who choose to play it that way.

They could possibly change the loot tables a bit to have a chance of more or better drops if you opt to play it as it is, as an incentive to try the content as originally intended. Maybe they could give you a better drop rate on enchanting glyphs for example, so they didn't have to make it too much easier to level.

Anyway, I think that is the best way to go. It requires minimal effort and dev time, and avoids the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario of upsetting one half of the community or the other.

So again, sorry if I offended anyone, and I hope to see the game continue to improve. Even if they do opt to go through with this change globally, I trust them enough to be fair about it so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and stick with it, because I really do love the game.

On the upside, it WILL be nice to see more people around again. If this brings back good people that aren't of that dreaded mindset I described (the WoW crowd) who maybe didn't feel like becoming elite gamers just to play the content, then I welcome it.

I would hate to think I had contributed to driving anyone away, which is mostly why I wanted to post this.

It's big of you to acknowledge you may have gone about things the wrong way. No one dislikes people being passionate sbout a game they love, you did get too elitist and created too many posts though. Guess we will see what they do and then react to that, but try not to over react.

I do think that you need to recognise that no game should be balanced for the amount of time you personally put into it, you are a tiny tiny minority, since you admit to spending all your free time in game or online.

Now this is not meant to be patronising, it probably will come across as that. You could really do with using some of the passion you clearly have to try and get some other things going in your life. I would seriously suggest getting into exercise, it seriously helps my concentration levels,especially in FPS games, it's even quite addictive, when you get used to it, maybe you already do that though, far too few do though.

@Guppet @AlienDiplomat

So nice to see you guys getting along...lol

Valn · July 2014

This entire wall of post apology thread is just cringeful to read.

Ojustaboo · July 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Danisheraser · July 2014

Overreaction!?? Making vet content for *** is overreaction. Every stupid mmo company did it, and now eso is going the same route. It started out good and ends up terribly. What Zenimax needs to do is to balance the rewards for doing veteran content while giving players more options to reach v12. But don't make it easier. People have to understand that reaching highest level requires time and dedication.
By doing the vereran zones, players are still rewarded with skillpoints (though not enough) and that should in itself be difficult. Not everyone should be able to do that.

Syntse · July 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

And the note can be also interpreted that they adjust the curve a bit possibly not touching much V5+ difficulty but adjusting the difficulty curve on V1-5 content. Quoting the note "We’re implementing some balance changes to content in post-50 zones that will make it much more like the content from levels 1-50. Our goal is to remove the feeling of “I have just hit a wall of difficulty” that many of you have expressed".

We'll have to see. In the end I'm hoping that there will be content for both groups of people, those who like relaxed gameplay and those who like their content challenging.

zScars · July 2014

aion did the same thing, but they waited to long n lost a lot of their base

Maximis_ESO · July 2014

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I just wanted to apologize for overreacting to this announcement, and to anyone here that I might have offended in doing so. I realize that I go a bit too far when making general statements that are implied to encompass everyone who thinks the veteran zones could be toned down a bit. Honestly, that was not my intention.

Try to understand, I don't watch TV, I don't have an active Netflix subscription, and I have no interest in social mainstays due to personal complications (therefore not married, not seeing anyone anymore, don't have kids, don't really plan to), so when I am not reading, writing, coding, modding, working, or doing something outside (hiss! the sun!), I pretty much have the internet, and whatever online game I happen to be enjoying at the moment.

Beyond that, the Elder Scrolls genre is sacred ground for me. I have modded as a hobby since Morrowind (as Sgaileach1 and Phinix), and the idea of an online addition to the series was kind of a big deal for me. ZOS had very high expectations to meet and I feel they indeed have met them, which made it all the more distressing to hear such a turn around months into the public release of the game.

It just gave me a sense that maybe the company was a little desperate to be considering such a radical restructuring of the core design model of the game this far in, particularly when the split in the community seems about 50/50 in the issue.

But mainly, I was immediately reminded of all the online titles I have enjoyed over the last decade ruined by the instant gratification crowd demanding nerfs and handouts for everything with no effort required, skipping content, rushing to the boss, leaving people behind, and I guess it just struck a nerve.

In the end after more careful contemplation (and getting trolled a ton on the forums which I probably deserved) the solution I came up with was to simply add a toggle where you could play the content either as it is now, in a phase group with all the other people who choose to, or as they are planning to adjust it on Monday, with all the people who choose to play it that way.

They could possibly change the loot tables a bit to have a chance of more or better drops if you opt to play it as it is, as an incentive to try the content as originally intended. Maybe they could give you a better drop rate on enchanting glyphs for example, so they didn't have to make it too much easier to level.

Anyway, I think that is the best way to go. It requires minimal effort and dev time, and avoids the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario of upsetting one half of the community or the other.

So again, sorry if I offended anyone, and I hope to see the game continue to improve. Even if they do opt to go through with this change globally, I trust them enough to be fair about it so I will give them the benefit of the doubt and stick with it, because I really do love the game.

On the upside, it WILL be nice to see more people around again. If this brings back good people that aren't of that dreaded mindset I described (the WoW crowd) who maybe didn't feel like becoming elite gamers just to play the content, then I welcome it.

I would hate to think I had contributed to driving anyone away, which is mostly why I wanted to post this.

Sadly, you and a lot of other people have already driven a lot of players off.... made many people feel bad and probably made the devs re think the decision. However, I accept the apology and while I understand that it isn't something you want and something I'm skeptical about I honestly think it will be the best thing for the game.

Maximis_ESO · July 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

Devlin69 · July 2014

Well I like the difficulty as it is, not that keen on questing. As soon as I hit 50 and realised I had to do all the quests in the other zones to level VR my heart sank a little and the xp was bad too.

Would like more options to level in pvp, ive abandoned Cadwells Silver and resorted to daily quests in Cyrodiil. Not sure if this will cause any issues later, I hope not.

Phantax · July 2014

zScars wrote: »

aion did the same thing, but they waited to long n lost a lot of their base

Very true, we don't want/need ESO to make that same mistake !

:O

Audigy · July 2014

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

You will soon realize that many more people leave due the nerf, history repeats itself always and we have the best example in WOW for this.

Most people at WOW leave during the process up to 90, as they feel bored and not in an MMO. The same will soon happen to ESO, people picked the game for the promises made by the designers and if these promises are broken they will simply put leave the game.

Besides that there is no content at VR 12 that is not trial or dungeon, so what are people supposed to do there? I don't know if you think there is some mega candy stick for you at VR12 or something, because there isn't.

You will have nothing to do there as soon you finish the VR zones.

Phantax · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

You will soon realize that many more people leave due the nerf, history repeats itself always and we have the best example in WOW for this.

Most people at WOW leave during the process up to 90, as they feel bored and not in an MMO. The same will soon happen to ESO, people picked the game for the promises made by the designers and if these promises are broken they will simply put leave the game.

Besides that there is no content at VR 12 that is not trial or dungeon, so what are people supposed to do there? I don't know if you think there is some mega candy stick for you at VR12 or something, because there isn't.

You will have nothing to do there as soon you finish the VR zones.

Yep, It's a shame WoW is struggling with only 6+ million players....lol

LariahHunding · July 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

I am fairly sure this was a numbers-driven decision by the bean counters.
Personally I think that VR content sucked, but difficulty was just a small part of it.

And it seems they will be tinkering with much more than difficulty which seems there is a extreme overreaction about.

Nazon_Katts · July 2014

A rare trait it has become to be self-reflective and admitting one's mistakes publicly. And when you know where someone is coming from, an overreaction becomes an understandable one.

Wolfshead · July 2014

It is nice to see someone admit the can be wrong but on one hand i don't get why OP want to have phase system for them who want VR content stay as the are and why should the get better loot it sound to me as WoW solution as Blizzard have done to raid system the people that can't do "normal" raid can still see content but the will get inferior gear and weapon and the get punish for have real life it is sound to me that OP want to punish them how can't play 24/7 the thing is that everyone put in time and effort in to there game time and why should people not have same right to get same type of gear and weapon honest i think it is stupid suggestion.

Just see how that system have divided WoW community into 2 side and honest it is have become a real bad "we hate you LFR player for you don't know anything about the game and you should not even be playing WoW" attitude which i think is FUBAR.

Ojustaboo · July 2014

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

If you join a game, join a random guild soon after release there is a very very big chance that 3 months later that guild will be dead.

People buy a game, join a guild, give it a month or so and decide it isnt for them, I have done this myself.

Then there's those that post what they are looking for in a guild in various guild recruitment forums. They tend to find guilds of like minded players, build good freindships and like my guild have next to zero people leaving.

Then there's the guilds like mine (which also fall into the previous guild catogory), who were formed in previous mmos, who like to play an mmo for years providing it delivers, and might have various guild members playing a few different mmos.

Then theres the hardcore mmo guilds who flock to every new mmo released, rush to end game, and more often than not are not in most games for very long.

And of course there's all the exceptions, there will be random guilds formed that grow and survive.

My guild has been looking forward to ESO for ages, most players loving TES, being into the lore. We are a casual guild but we like a challenge at the same time.

Since release, 4 guild members quit, one didn't like the game at all, one had too many real life issues, one prefered Wildstar and one hated vet content.

Another guild member aldo dislikes vet content but not due to the difficulty level.

Since release my guild members playing ESO have grown not decreased as we have convinced other guild members playing other mmos to give it a try and so far they are loving it.

I also have many friends on the NA server in guilds that are loving the game.

Just like you are speaking about what you see, I am simply saying what .I have seen.

I don't think many people would disagree that the end game is the weakest part of ESO, it has many many problems and I fully understand why so many people are having problems with it.

I just don't think lowering the difficulty will help solve any of it.

I'm sorry you find me so oppinuated, I'm not meaning to be, I have always struggled to get my point across in short posts, and so many things get pulled out of context etc that I like to explain my reasoning for my thoughts.

Alphashado · July 2014

Audigy wrote: »

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

You will soon realize that many more people leave due the nerf, history repeats itself always and we have the best example in WOW for this.

Most people at WOW leave during the process up to 90, as they feel bored and not in an MMO. The same will soon happen to ESO, people picked the game for the promises made by the designers and if these promises are broken they will simply put leave the game.

Besides that there is no content at VR 12 that is not trial or dungeon, so what are people supposed to do there? I don't know if you think there is some mega candy stick for you at VR12 or something, because there isn't.

You will have nothing to do there as soon you finish the VR zones.

I think you VASTLY overestimate the number of gamers seeking some kind of hard mode MMO. Don't you think if there were such a vast population of people craving such a game that every greedy game developer in the world would be tripping over each other in order to be the first one to tap into that hidden gem of wealth? Nobody with your opinion has been able to answer this question.

Vahrokh · July 2014

No, the problem is two fold:

- an unneded nerf to what needs just tweaks,

- it's unneeded because if ZoS fixed what is really wrong (pathetic stamina builds, insane VR mobs armor penetration etc.) then VR content would magically become just fine. After all, < level 50 mobs did not have 90% armor penetration, did they?

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

They cannot bring the difficulty down "by an amount that is almost unnoticeable" because if they did, the next day we'd have a massive revolt with players (rightly) accusing ZoS of having played a bait and switch on them.

This is also why the majority of nerf in MMOs history have been exaggerated: the developers must give the physical feeling that they did tangible changes and this happens only by going heavy in the changes enough that it becomes really visible.

Phantax wrote: »

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Nobody - beginning by me - ever posted on the forums "agreeing" with VR difficulty because... we were busy actually DOING the challenges and having plenty of fun, instead of uselessly sitting down crying on and flooding the forums.

But now the WoW attack on ESO has started, we HAVE to step up and defend one of the few, unique MMOs against pestilential dumbification and humiliation.

Why ESO HAS to become another piece of mindless and worthless garbage like EVERYTHING WoW-alike else?

I mean, we got FIVE, not 50 or 500 but FIVE damn buttons (10 with 2 weapons) to press. At least in WoW you get 20-30 and you use 10-12 all the time. In ESO they give FIVE buttons + need to dodge huge, red circles.

Apparently managing FIVE buttons is way too hard

GW2 is another game with "few buttons but you need to dodge" yet they never had WoW-sies going there and saying it was too hard to press them.

Phantax wrote: »

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

That's what on Titanic they thought about warning the captain. Yeah let's failcascade and THEN pretend they'll undo the ship sinking down.

Said that, there's a LOT that ZoS could have done to make VR levels more rewarding (for those WoW-sies who can't play if they don't see huge carrots before every step they do), fix the few very hard quests and massively reduce mobs armor penetration AND improve stamina builds.

Did ZoS announce any of these WAY much needed NOW things? No, not one of them. They just announced they'll throw the baby (skillfull content) with the washwater (broken / untuned quests etc.) without doing ANY of the real fix that make classes unviable exactly to deal with the VR content.

Basically a totally wrong, opposite approach to what would be in dire need of change ASAP.

And that annoys me (and others) to hell: knowing fun content will be obliterated because they just CAN'T see the real problems (stamina builds etc) and / or go for the low hanging fruit insta-gratification (temporary subs return) instead of fixing their game long term (long term subs staying).

Alphashado · July 2014

Gw2 didn't have quest content nearly as unforgiving as ESO VR zones. No premier game does. Not even remotely close.

As mentioned in my above post, there simply isn't enough of a market for diffict games. The ones that do try it realize very quickly that there isn't enough revenue there. But all of the games mentioned in this scenario never had anything even remotely close to ESO VR challenge lvl. Even a mildly watered down version of ESO VR is still going to be much more challenging than quest content was in any of those other games.

That being said, I believe it would be wise for ZOS to try to appease this type of gamer. Most other MMOs do this with dungeons and raids. But if there is anything the last few days has shown us is that there is a significant amount of people that enjoy elite solo play. So hopefully they can figure out a way to be the 1st MMO that can fill that niche.

Ojustaboo · July 2014

Alphashado wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

You will soon realize that many more people leave due the nerf, history repeats itself always and we have the best example in WOW for this.

Most people at WOW leave during the process up to 90, as they feel bored and not in an MMO. The same will soon happen to ESO, people picked the game for the promises made by the designers and if these promises are broken they will simply put leave the game.

Besides that there is no content at VR 12 that is not trial or dungeon, so what are people supposed to do there? I don't know if you think there is some mega candy stick for you at VR12 or something, because there isn't.

You will have nothing to do there as soon you finish the VR zones.

I think you VASTLY overestimate the number of gamers seeking some kind of hard mode MMO. Don't you think if there were such a vast population of people craving such a game that every greedy game developer in the world would be tripping over each other in order to be the first one to tap into that hidden gem of wealth? Nobody with your opinion has been able to answer this question.

I don't disagree with that at all. However things are never that simple.

If I have a passion to make a product, I have a few choices.

For example

Do I just want to make something that's going to make me very rich very quick, not giving a dam about the player base so long as it sells well.

Do I want to make a huge amount of money, going for the easy option making a tried and tested format. Giving more of the same, knowing with a good IP it will sell in droves.

Or do I have a vision for a product I want to make, a product that won't follow the crowd, a product that I can still make a very good living from but obviously wont make anywhere near the money copying a tried and tested format would make.

Many people think everyone will always go for the biggest money, while most people do choose this root, luckily there are still people willing to follow their heart rather than their bank balance.

If you look at most games coming out, its more of the same. The big players don't want to invest in a risky new format, they would rather give us the next installment of what works, whether that's the next COD, Halo, Fifa, GTA, Sims or whatever.

Many games programmers have great idea's for games that could end up just as big as the current famous games, but most publishers are now so huge and money orientated, that they wont take any risks, hence these ideas will sadly hardly ever materialise.

Which is why in 10 years time you will probably have Fifa 2024, NBA 2024, PGA 2024, NBA 2024 and games that while might have a different name, are basically more COD etc.

A company wanting to make a game their way has to decide what they are aiming for.

Zenimax could have made an EQ / WOW clone with the TES IP and almost guarantee themselves a big hit. With all the usual stuff, a nice AH, tons of info on the UI etc etc etc.

They could have made it F2P from the start using the above format, knowing that they would make an absolute fortune from an online store etc.

But they didn't. They went for a sub based game and they followed their own ideas, ideas such as no AH that while many like not having one, many many others can't believe there isn't one.

Some worked on the original DAOC, and those people understand the sort of player that likes challenging content.

And from the start, Zenimax said they were going to be different, from the start they said there would be plenty of very challenging content for players wanting it.

It's hard to judge what the subs are like and its hard to judge what percentage of current subscribers will leave either if they keep content very difficult or if they make it too easy.

They don't need WOW number of subs to have a really successful game, they just need enough subs to keep making a profit after all bills are paid.

If it cost 200 million to develop, they probably recouped a nice portion of that with the initial sales, almost everyone I came into contact with initially, preorded the Imperial edition.

I wouldn't be surprised if they recouped at least half their cost with the preorders and you really don't need hundreds of thousands of subs to make the game pay.

What you do need with a sub based game, is players that are going to be happy to sub for many years.

I'm trying to make sure this doesn't look like I'm saying something I'm not meaning to imply.

There is a large player base that love challenging end game content and if they get it, are the sort of players who will sub for literally years.

Sure the casual player is a bigger player base by a long way, but, many such players when they complete all content (and if the content is easy, this won't take that long), will decide its no longer worth the monthly sub, maybe subbing for the odd month here and there.

It's the ones coming back day after day as they are loving the end game that will be the main ones subbing for years (and no matter how slowly people level, they will reach end game at some point)

So Zenimax knows full well they could dumb the game down a LOT, go F2P and make a fortune, but they are choosing not to. They are happy catering to the people currently playing.

Sure they are trying to tweak things so those not happy with vet content don't leave, but don't forget it was only a few weeks ago that they raised the NPC level from vet 1 to vet 5 to make PvP much harder. So they are catering to both crowds.

Players against the change are right to voice their concerns, but I think it will be such a slight change so as not to upset those enjoying vet, that come next week, this forum will be full of posts complaining they promised to make it easier but its still just as hard.

Not sure if I answered you or not, but I tried.

Vahrokh · July 2014

Phantax wrote: »

Yep, It's a shame WoW is struggling with only 6+ million players....lol

It's a matter of scale. They peaked at 13M, so they lost 54% of their player base.

Madval · July 2014

One thing we can say is that at least there is passion for this game, because if nobody where arguing about the game it would be a bad sign. Nothing worse than players who don't care about modification for their game.

rayeab16_ESO · July 2014

alot of us asking for *changes* to VR content, were not asking for 'nerf' as you call it.
some were asking for a bit of tweeking (like how a boss in certain areas of VR content would be easier to deal with, than trash mobs for that same bracket)

some were asking for different types of VR content (stuff in current areas to allow for the choice to solo)

others were saying that VR content shouldnt be another grind through 2 of the 3 factions (espeicaly those of us who have allready got alts, dont do pvp because we sux at it and therefor have no way to get to the new VR10-12 areas) and that they should change the *way* VR content is shipped to us. that Craglorn itself should be VR1 and upwards and that the current VR1-10 is a bad idea

most of us were not screaming NERF!!! we were (some of them were screaming nerf okay lol) *asking* for a reworking and reformating.

personaly i wanted not to have to grind through another set of quests i have allready DONE on my alts, in hard mode.
since i sux seriously at PvP (i havent done any since vanilla wow, where i was constantly pummeld by an orcish Trinity and her premade in 10-19 lol. halh an hour was fun, then they noticed my dwarf pally and i was dogpiled ever time i rezzed. not fun anymore) i cant use that to level up VR.
i want to see the new maps, but i cant, becasue everything will chew me up and eat me as i havent got a party of 3 others.

those were my *personal* objections to VR content. that they took what was supposed to be a *choice* for those who only want to level one char, to go thru the other two factions questlines, and turned it into a MANDATORY grind for everyone else.
the difficulty would probably be negligable for a good few of us objectors, if we didnt have to GRINDE MOAR of the exact quests we just did, on our alts.

i think it was a bad move on the staffs part, to make VR levels in this fashon.

they should have used Craglorn as the start of the VR leveling process.
should have made the world (map) there suitable for solo *exploration* while setting up a few daily quests those of us who dont / cant PvP could do to level up VR as an alternative. improve vet versions of the group dungeons, delves and so on.
had a single solo'able questline that takes a player from the start of the Craglorn area, thru to whatever their next map is (so solo users have at least a sence of progression, and a carrot to move thru the area)
made harder versions of group dingeons/delves/ect that were chooseable.

they could even have made a copy of an area, and ramp up the difficulty there to super hard levels, and make it optional, as a 'Iron-Adventurere' mode for folks, (probably at Sheogoraths pleasure lol) where the only real differences were the difficulty, and what our split-minded friend would give you for pleasing him

and i think more players would have been satisifed with this kind of version of veteran leveling.
but instead they chose to take the *optional* 1-char quest choice and rammed it down everyones throats, probably becasue they were pressed for time, and hadnt a clue what to give folks to *keep* them in the game after the enevitable grind for 3 days, reach end of game scenario happend.

Wolfshead · July 2014

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

You will soon realize that many more people leave due the nerf, history repeats itself always and we have the best example in WOW for this.

Most people at WOW leave during the process up to 90, as they feel bored and not in an MMO. The same will soon happen to ESO, people picked the game for the promises made by the designers and if these promises are broken they will simply put leave the game.

Besides that there is no content at VR 12 that is not trial or dungeon, so what are people supposed to do there? I don't know if you think there is some mega candy stick for you at VR12 or something, because there isn't.

You will have nothing to do there as soon you finish the VR zones.

I think you VASTLY overestimate the number of gamers seeking some kind of hard mode MMO. Don't you think if there were such a vast population of people craving such a game that every greedy game developer in the world would be tripping over each other in order to be the first one to tap into that hidden gem of wealth? Nobody with your opinion has been able to answer this question.

I don't disagree with that at all. However things are never that simple.

If I have a passion to make a product, I have a few choices.

For example

Do I just want to make something that's going to make me very rich very quick, not giving a dam about the player base so long as it sells well.

Do I want to make a huge amount of money, going for the easy option making a tried and tested format. Giving more of the same, knowing with a good IP it will sell in droves.

Or do I have a vision for a product I want to make, a product that won't follow the crowd, a product that I can still make a very good living from but obviously wont make anywhere near the money copying a tried and tested format would make.

Many people think everyone will always go for the biggest money, while most people do choose this root, luckily there are still people willing to follow their heart rather than their bank balance.

If you look at most games coming out, its more of the same. The big players don't want to invest in a risky new format, they would rather give us the next installment of what works, whether that's the next COD, Halo, Fifa, GTA, Sims or whatever.

Many games programmers have great idea's for games that could end up just as big as the current famous games, but most publishers are now so huge and money orientated, that they wont take any risks, hence these ideas will sadly hardly ever materialise.

Which is why in 10 years time you will probably have Fifa 2024, NBA 2024, PGA 2024, NBA 2024 and games that while might have a different name, are basically more COD etc.

A company wanting to make a game their way has to decide what they are aiming for.

Zenimax could have made an EQ / WOW clone with the TES IP and almost guarantee themselves a big hit. With all the usual stuff, a nice AH, tons of info on the UI etc etc etc.

They could have made it F2P from the start using the above format, knowing that they would make an absolute fortune from an online store etc.

But they didn't. They went for a sub based game and they followed their own ideas, ideas such as no AH that while many like not having one, many many others can't believe there isn't one.

Some worked on the original DAOC, and those people understand the sort of player that likes challenging content.

And from the start, Zenimax said they were going to be different, from the start they said there would be plenty of very challenging content for players wanting it.

It's hard to judge what the subs are like and its hard to judge what percentage of current subscribers will leave either if they keep content very difficult or if they make it too easy.

They don't need WOW number of subs to have a really successful game, they just need enough subs to keep making a profit after all bills are paid.

If it cost 200 million to develop, they probably recouped a nice portion of that with the initial sales, almost everyone I came into contact with initially, preorded the Imperial edition.

I wouldn't be surprised if they recouped at least half their cost with the preorders and you really don't need hundreds of thousands of subs to make the game pay.

What you do need with a sub based game, is players that are going to be happy to sub for many years.

I'm trying to make sure this doesn't look like I'm saying something I'm not meaning to imply.

There is a large player base that love challenging end game content and if they get it, are the sort of players who will sub for literally years.

Sure the casual player is a bigger player base by a long way, but, many such players when they complete all content (and if the content is easy, this won't take that long), will decide its no longer worth the monthly sub, maybe subbing for the odd month here and there.

It's the ones coming back day after day as they are loving the end game that will be the main ones subbing for years (and no matter how slowly people level, they will reach end game at some point)

So Zenimax knows full well they could dumb the game down a LOT, go F2P and make a fortune, but they are choosing not to. They are happy catering to the people currently playing.

Sure they are trying to tweak things so those not happy with vet content don't leave, but don't forget it was only a few weeks ago that they raised the NPC level from vet 1 to vet 5 to make PvP much harder. So they are catering to both crowds.

Players against the change are right to voice their concerns, but I think it will be such a slight change so as not to upset those enjoying vet, that come next week, this forum will be full of posts complaining they promised to make it easier but its still just as hard.

Not sure if I answered you or not, but I tried.

Well in all honest mate a game can still be a challenge with out dumb down a game for me part that i don't like about VR content is that you don't get XP for killing mobs, explore, open new wayshrine which we get when we are lvl up from 1 to 50 that is in my book make game play easy but still keep the game challenge for then have not narf any boss or anything.

Serious run around on same lvl for weeks now is not fun at all but i only have time to play on weekend but see that XP bar hardly moving is not make fun at all to keep playing to be honest.

F2P game is way overrate for you end up spend more real money in those game then do in P2P game even if the company is not selling item to make your char better but selling for example like SWTOR content and PvP pass to some zone, more bag space, allow you sell more item on AH, sell weapons and gear without stats, sell mobs to space combat PvP and the will most like sell item to player house which at the end you end up spend more money the P2P even them how is subscribe to SWTOR spend more money then a purely P2P.

Anastasia · July 2014

Maximis_ESO wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Phantax wrote: »

Agreed. People should realise that -

•Firstly ZOS did not say VR would become easy-mode, they said it would be 'easier' to level. They may bring the difficulty down by an amount that is almost unnoticeable ! They may do something we didn't expect?

•Secondly, the forums have been filled with posts for ages now by people complaining about VR difficulty. There have been very few (almost none) posts where people have loved the whole VR experience. We (the general ESO population) have been moaning at ZOS for ages to 'fix' VR and now when they do, a mindless bandwagon all start moaning and complaining about it.

Lets at least wait till Monday, see what ZOS actually do to VR and then we can judge if it's a good or bad thing ! Any MMO is a living/on-going entity, it takes time to get it right and balance things. ZOS obviously have something in mind, lets at least wait to see if it works !

I don't agree with your second point at all.

It's well known that on any forum, no matter how vocal complaints seem to be, usually (not always) they still represent a tiny portion of the player base.

My guild has about 55 members playing ESO.

2 have huge problems with vet content, the rest are enjoying all aspects of the game, bugs and pvp cheaters aside.

I'm the only one that posts here, most of the rest only ever visit to read patch notes when I or a couple of other guildies who don't post here, link patch notes and anouncements on my guilds website.

Take a product, whether a game or say electrical item, the forums will always consist mainly of those having problems. Whether tech support issues or general issues with the product .

So you could have a product that sold 500,000 and most users could be really happy using that product and such people rarely go to the official forums to say how much they love it.

But a tiny percentage (for example 1000 out of half a million) not liking it for whatever reason will rightly go to the forum and try to get their issues heard. And from looking at the forum, it usually looks like there isn't a single person who owns the product that is actually happy with it. Meanwhile the vast majority of the 500,000 are to busy enjoying themselves.

Of course very occasionally the forum posters do represent the majority but its very very rare.

The people complaining about vet content are NOT the general ESO population, they are simply those players unhappy with that aspect of the game.

People who glance at the announcements and dev notes etc that are happily playing and don't regularly post (stars are meaningless to work out how often someone posts as many posted tons of feedback etc during beta), see the announcement about vet, are alarmed at what they read, hence rightly start posting they are against the idea.

They are not a mindless bandwagon anymore than those wanting the change are.

What you appear to be saying is those who have been vocal about the same things you don't like, represent true ESO players, but those who have been happily playing do not. It probably wasn't your intention but that is what it reads like to me.

As I've said loads in the past few days, most people (not all) who quit over vet content did so for various other reasons.

For example,

The amount of bugged quests
The various PvP issues
Them expecting ES6
Bots

and a load of other reasons. And when they reached vet level, tney simply didn't like what was offered. Yes vet levels are a steep learning curve, yes it's important to know in what situations you need to slot which class (no I am NOT telling people they need to learn to play), but for most, that learning curve after all the bugs etc was simply too much and they chose to quit.

I honestly think that if they halved the vet difficulty, while many players might come back and give it a go, the vast majority currently unhappy will still be unhappy hence those that might come back will soon leave again.

Vet content as it is, is not for everyone and Zenimax needs to address this. Certain classes need balancing for it etc.
Content needs to be added where grouping is not required

etc etc etc

But I don't think them slightly tweaking the overall difficulty will help anyone. Those that find it too hard will still find it too hard, and all that will happen is those currently enjoying it will start to feel dissapointed in the game.

I agree with your last point entirely, but don't forget Zenimax could have announced this next week when the change actually happens, and they know full well by announcing it a few days before, the forums would erupt and it could be that they did this on purpose to see how much opposition there would be.

I also expect if they announced it and such debates didnt take place, many many more alarm bells would be ringing for them.

Its true many many players have left ESO, only Zenimax knows the numbers still subbing. But that was bound to happen in an experimental game like this

They could have made another EQ or WOW but they chose not to. It was ridiculously hyped. It was released with a ton of problems. A combination of a lot of things drove most players away, I doubt most of them even reached vet content.

Now we have a very vocal group unhappy with vet content, rightly expressing how they feel, with many saying if things don't change they will leave.

However that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a greater number who like the current difficulty couldn't also decide to leave if things are made too easy.

I personally think ESO is big enough to cater for both groups.

We will find out soon exactly what they have in mind.

Your post has more opinions in it than anything I have ever seen..... and I would think that the amount of people that have left at VR 1-3 would be evidence enough that it needs some fixing. I was in 3 guilds between 200-500 players and 2 other ones, one with around 20 and the other 75...... almost everyone left the game at early VR and very few stayed to play.

This shows that something needs to change when it not only happens to one guild but all and most of the people on my friends list aswell.

AlienD, good on ya for thinking things through and stating your thoughts more clearly and calmly. I've enjoyed some of your posts and learned from many, thank you.

@ Maximus:

1. This is a forum set up expressly for those interested in TESO (*Most of its sections SHOULD be restricted to subbed players, with one tab for curious people looking for more info in order to decide about buying or subbing, but I digress here with my personal opinion ;o). This is a forum where most of us come to post OUR thoughts, opinions, reactions and suggestions.

All of these posts are invariably biased, colored with personal experience. Pretty sure most adults reading forums are clear on that. That we have a common goal - the longevity of TESO is the tie that binds; there is no precedent set nor followed on forums that requires proofs, legal justification or warranted data, though sometimes those are included. We are all just people expressing our appreciation, frustration, ideas, thoughts, jokes and a multitude of other things in a forum, yes? What do most people do when they come across a post they don't agree with? Answer and debate it, or just scroll on by. But, it still stands that personal opinions, like those expressed by AlienD and others are EXPECTEDLY personal opinions heh. Just like yours is, and mine. Not proof of anything, aside from our anecdotal accounts. But then, there is no expectation to 'prove' anything.

2. The "amount of of people who have left at VR 1-3 is evidence of the amount of people who have left. There is no evidence available to the public which delineates the data of who left and why; ZOS has some of that from the few who sent in emails or cs tags before quitting. But remember that is limited since this game doesn't have the typical "Why are you quitting?" response space when one stops their subscription.

Players have quit for a multitude of reasons, just like in other mmo's. Some active on these forums would argue vehemently with you that the highest percentage of players quitting has been because of instability and lag in Cyrodil and elsewhere, or because of their difficulty in being able to easily group up in 1-50 content, or because there is little to no facilitation for the folks who want to RP - as in speech bubbles, housing/public areas centered around or providing encouragement for them; the stam - magic ratio issue, etc. So there is NOT a logical conclusion that players in VR 1-3 have definitively quit because the difficulty level in V+ content was deemed 'too hard.' It is just a part of the list.

3. If I were want to express an opinion on the numbers who have left, based on my personal experience - friends list, guildies, irl friends, I'd say that many were confused and didn't really research this MMO before they bought it. I believe the numbers of players that have disappeared or shrank from guild lists etc are because they were those players for whom this game was not designed, or targeted and advertised to. Its fabulous they came and enjoyed it for the portion they got fun from.

Games are created and published from the devs/design team. People come and try the MMO out, having fun and then deciding if they will stay. An MMO is not some generalized virtual world which players come into and then start selecting piece of content by piece of content, and then custom ordering it s like an a la carte deli lunch line.

4. Yep. Some things need to change, and thats expected in any MMO, especially in its first year. We've hoped Zeni would listen to player input, and they have on a few points. Its obvious a business entity makes decisions based on data related to budget and profit, AND on continuing to raise its profit levels which also is very important.

5. Here's to hoping some other viable ideas that would be a boon for those that prefer primarily to solo - are also considered. I sincerely wish other changes and modifications had been the focus for ZOS FIRST, instead of making content easier, because I believe it will affect other content subsequent to the V+ zones.

I'm seriously dissatisfied with this, but that's my opinion. I will be hoping that Zeni pushes on and figures out other issues, and handles the consequences of this change well. Waiting to see.