Thank you for finally listening

Tabbycat

Alphashado wrote: »

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Haha... people think veteran zones are empty because of the difficulty... that's just precious.

I think it's even cuter that you deny it has anything to do with it.

Denial isn't a river in Egypt - Marc Twain

I heard that all the people that reached VR re-rolled to make dress and stick Sorcerers.

LonePirate

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

This change can only help to repopulate the empty Veteran zones, particularly the VR8-10 zones which are ghost towns. Last night I completed 15 delves in my VR8-10 zones and I encountered a total of 3 people and only completed a delve with one of them. I definitely welcome and appreciate this change as it is lonely being a player in the upper VR zones now.

The people in the threads saying VR is so perfect and should be left alone... why aren't they actually playing in the VR zones?

Exactly! If the current Veteran content is so perfect for these hardcore players, then why aren't they playing it and why aren't the upper Veteran zones filled to the brim with these people? They seem to think their opinion is the majority opinion but the emptiness of the upper Veteran zones tells a completely different story than the one they are peddling and crying about now.

Uh... we are? What are you psychic? I have spent a total of 45 minutes in Craglorn just to explore.

I'm talking about the upper VR zones (such as VR6-10). I see more people in Craglorn than in the VR6-10 zones because people can go to Craglorn and grind their way to VR12. Not only that, but the 4-5 packs of mobs in Craglorn are easier to defeat than the 3 packs in the VR6-10 zones. Anyone who doesn't know that Craglorn operates under a different rule set than the other VR zones, especially the VR8-10 zones has not played much Veteran content.

Loco_Mofo

LonePirate wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

This change can only help to repopulate the empty Veteran zones, particularly the VR8-10 zones which are ghost towns. Last night I completed 15 delves in my VR8-10 zones and I encountered a total of 3 people and only completed a delve with one of them. I definitely welcome and appreciate this change as it is lonely being a player in the upper VR zones now.

The people in the threads saying VR is so perfect and should be left alone... why aren't they actually playing in the VR zones?

Exactly! If the current Veteran content is so perfect for these hardcore players, then why aren't they playing it and why aren't the upper Veteran zones filled to the brim with these people? They seem to think their opinion is the majority opinion but the emptiness of the upper Veteran zones tells a completely different story than the one they are peddling and crying about now.

Implying that difficulty is the sole issue?

• The story is no longer believable
• It's unrewarding
• Progression slows down to a snails pace

All the above make VR content a boring grind. The challenge is what kept me going.

Arsenic_Touch

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

Implying that difficulty is the sole issue?

• The story is no longer believable
• It's unrewarding
• Progression slows down to a snails pace

All the above make VR content a boring grind. The challenge is what kept me going.

The story is believable but you're right about the rest. There is no carrot. The progression in this game after level 49 is terrible. Players always seek the path of least resistance and rewards, that's currently craglorn.

You can grind out your levels and get better rewards in a fraction of the time compared to doing cadwell's silver and gold. That is the real reason those zones are empty, it was evident the moment they released craglorn and people realized that they didn't have to slowly level with nothing to show for it.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of players haven't even hit veteran content yet. But if it helps these folks feel better to pretend that the difficulty is the reason for empty zones, so be it. They'll be the ones responsible for ushering in changes that have caused hemorrhaging in every previous mmo to date.

Ojustaboo

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

brandon

@Ojustaboo
no matter how much we try to tell people this, they won't listen sadly.

Blackwidow

"Thank you for finally listening"

They were listening the whole time.

They finally were able to respond with results.

It just takes time.

kijima

Yup, that's how I see it too. The game is getting better, if you compare original roll out to where we are now save the FPS drops.

Phinix1

Alphashado wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

Tabbycat wrote: »

LonePirate wrote: »

This change can only help to repopulate the empty Veteran zones, particularly the VR8-10 zones which are ghost towns. Last night I completed 15 delves in my VR8-10 zones and I encountered a total of 3 people and only completed a delve with one of them. I definitely welcome and appreciate this change as it is lonely being a player in the upper VR zones now.

The people in the threads saying VR is so perfect and should be left alone... why aren't they actually playing in the VR zones?

Exactly! If the current Veteran content is so perfect for these hardcore players, then why aren't they playing it and why aren't the upper Veteran zones filled to the brim with these people? They seem to think their opinion is the majority opinion but the emptiness of the upper Veteran zones tells a completely different story than the one they are peddling and crying about now.

Uh... we are? What are you psychic? I have spent a total of 45 minutes in Craglorn just to explore.

I believe his point is that if so many people love the upper VR zones they way they are, then where are they all? Where is this magical ocean of satisfied VR customers? Why are the 1-50 zones still PACKED with people? There are several reasons. But trying to convince us that difficulty and balancing issues has nothing to do with it is silly. Cmon now.

Repeating over and over again that the veteran zones are empty to make your argument and get the content nerfed to WoW status where it is all totally boring and not worth paying a monthly sub for does NOT make it true.

I posted a request for a dolmen run today in the v8 zone and within 2 minutes we had 10 people in our group!

Perhaps the problem isn't the lack of veteran players, but that you picked an unpopular faction?

But no one ever considers these things. They just assume everything they hear must be true and the game ends up nerfed into another mediocre faceroll to cater to it.

I'm so done with this crap.

AngryNord

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I'm so done with this crap.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Phinix1

AngryNord wrote: »

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I'm so done with this crap.

Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Don't let the loot pinata hit you while you mash.

Alphashado

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

I spent a good amount of time playing lotro. The content there wasn't nearly as unforgiving as the current VR content in ESO. Not even close. I see this comparison used a lot. It doesn't apply here. Not once in lotro did It feel like "one mistake and you are dead" outside of dungeons. And this was several years ago before it went F2P

Ojustaboo

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

I spent a good amount of time playing lotro. The content there wasn't nearly as unforgiving as the current VR content in ESO. Not even close. I see this comparison used a lot. It doesn't apply here. Not once in lotro did It feel like "one mistake and you are dead" outside of dungeons. And this was several years ago before it went F2P

I agree most of Lotro wasn't as hard as vet, but I think a lot was much closer to how many people find ESO vet content than you remember.

Regardless of whether you or I am right on that issue, if you are right it rings alarm bells even more as they still nerfed and nerfed and nerfed Lotro until you end up with the mess you have now.

If it wasn't as hard as I remember it, then why the need to keep making it easier, and that is my ESO concern, no matter how easier they make it, there will always be a vocal crowd demanding it's made even easier.

(I always said in Lotro that I had zero problems with them releasing solo and/or easier content for those that want it so long as they also released challenging content alongside, sadly that didn't happen)

ESO you could explore everywhere and solo all quests from 1 to 49 (not counting dungeons etc). You couldn't do that in Lotro in its pre F2P days, loads of normal quests were impossible for most if tried on level while soloing.

Sure many mobs you met walking about in Lotro were no real need for any panic, but there were plenty of non dungeon parts that on your own at level you would struggle and very often die.

A few examples,

The Shire, the camp north of Rushmore Bog with the Dourhand Dwarves
The Shire, the two Goblin camps north of Greenfields
Lonelands, Elite spider area and Goblin camp south of forsaken inn
Lonelands, Nan Dhelu
Lonelands, Trolls in southern swamp
and quite a few more in Lonelands, plenty of examples in most other areas too, Moria used to be awesome and was my favourite place and many many non dungeon parts were really challenging

There was a LOT of non dungeon content designed for fellowship (groups) that probably weren't far off how many people find ESO vet content when soloing.

I initially created my burg for the sole reason of its fellowship manoeuvre ability (a skill that required inputvfrom all group members). When I left Lotro I hadn't had to use fellowship manoeuvres in months. Mainly due to the lack of new group content but also because the existing content was made so easy, people weren't interested in the skill, it being quicker just to whack any mob to death.

All that said, I suspect Zenimax will only tweak the difficulty slightly to try and please everyone and if that is what they do, I have a feeling most people who found vet too hard will still find it too hard. Zenimax made it too easy to get to vet, only a few parts forced you to think (and those such as Doshia were then nerfed)

I hate people saying learn to play, but the simple fact is, the way ESO is designed, you don't need to understand your class until you reach vet, then it's a completely different experience, and I doubt making it slightly easier will change what it feels like for the majority who currently struggle with it.

Alphashado

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

I spent a good amount of time playing lotro. The content there wasn't nearly as unforgiving as the current VR content in ESO. Not even close. I see this comparison used a lot. It doesn't apply here. Not once in lotro did It feel like "one mistake and you are dead" outside of dungeons. And this was several years ago before it went F2P

I agree most of Lotro wasn't as hard as vet, but I think a lot was much closer to how many people find ESO vet content than you remember.

Regardless of whether you or I am right on that issue, if you are right it rings alarm bells even more as they still nerfed and nerfed and nerfed Lotro until you end up with the mess you have now.

If it wasn't as hard as I remember it, then why the need to keep making it easier, and that is my ESO concern, no matter how easier they make it, there will always be a vocal crowd demanding it's made even easier.

ESO you could explore everywhere and solo all quests from 1 to 49 (not counting dungeons etc). You couldn't do that in Lotro in its pre F2P days, loads of normal quests were impossible for most if tried on level while soloing.

Sure many mobs you met walking about in Lotro were no real need for any panic, but there were plenty of non dungeon parts that on your own at level you would struggle and very often die.

A few examples,

The Shire, the camp north of Rushmore Bog with the Dourhand Dwarves
The Shire, the two Goblin camps north of Greenfields
Lonelands, Elite spider area and Goblin camp south of forsaken inn
Lonelands, Nan Dhelu
Lonelands, Trolls in southern swamp
and quite a few more in Lonelands, plenty of examples in most other areas too, Moria used to be awesome and was my favourite place and many many non dungeon parts were really challenging

There was a LOT of non dungeon content designed for fellowship (groups) that probably weren't far off how many people find ESO vet content when soloing.

I initially created my burg for the sole reason of its fellowship manoeuvre ability. When I left Lotro I hadn't had to use fellowship manoeuvres in months.

All that said, I suspect Zenimax will only tweak the difficulty slightly to try and please everyone and if that is what they do, I have a feeling most people who found vet too hard will still find it too hard. Zenimax made it too easy to get to vet, only a few parts forced you to think (and those such as Doshia were then nerfed)

I hate people saying l2p, but the simple fact is, the way ESO is designed, you don't need to understand your class until you reach vet, then it's a completely different experience, and I doubt making it slightly easier will change what it feels like for the majority who currently struggle with it.

The main difference between ESO and most other MMOs (including lotro) is that in most other games, players don't feel pressured into a cookie cutter meta build unless they want to run dungeons or raids. There is a very significant number of people that are quite content to do their own thing and quest their way to lvl cap.

Since ESO VR zones are literally 2/3 of the content, it looks and feels like normal progression to lvl cap. Therefore many people feel forced into theory crafting and meta builds just to progress to lvl cap.

If I recall, the lvl cap in lotro was lvl 50. So it would be the same if lotro made everything from lvl 17+ just as difficult as lvl 50 dungeons.

The idea was for VR zones to be presented as some kind of end game. And there in lies the flaw. It's much too large and structured like normal progression. People hitting a hard mode wall at lvl 17 in lotro would be an accurate comparison imo. Otherwise it just doesn't apply.

Bhakura

Ah well, been looking for an MMO you actually had to focus or be challenged, thought i found it ... guess not, ill keep on looking then, not in the mood for yet another brain at zero dull grind.

RazielSR

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

brandon

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I'm a huge TES fan. However TES fans need to learn that this isn't a single player game. I hardly believe this game will come anywhere near destroying the TES universe. How is having harder content going to destroy the TES universe anyway? I plan on sticking around for a long time even if this decision sucks. I actually really enjoy this game minus the bugs and some of the design choices.

RazielSR

brandon wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I'm a huge TES fan. However TES fans need to learn that this isn't a single player game. I hardly believe this game will come anywhere near destroying the TES universe. How is having harder content going to destroy the TES universe anyway? I plan on sticking around for a long time even if this decision sucks. I actually really enjoy this game minus the bugs and some of the design choices.

brandon wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I'm a huge TES fan. However TES fans need to learn that this isn't a single player game. I hardly believe this game will come anywhere near destroying the TES universe. How is having harder content going to destroy the TES universe anyway? I plan on sticking around for a long time even if this decision sucks. I actually really enjoy this game minus the bugs and some of the design choices.

Difficult should be the group quests or parts,not the part wjere you are just seeing and exploring the other zones. Why in the wold do you think people disbanded once they arrived to VR? That difficulty makes you be distracted about the real meaning of the game,of the tes universe. This is not a Dark Souls mmo.
TES is about taking your time in other aspects,not the difficulty.

brandon

RazielSR wrote: »

brandon wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I'm a huge TES fan. However TES fans need to learn that this isn't a single player game. I hardly believe this game will come anywhere near destroying the TES universe. How is having harder content going to destroy the TES universe anyway? I plan on sticking around for a long time even if this decision sucks. I actually really enjoy this game minus the bugs and some of the design choices.

brandon wrote: »

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I'm a huge TES fan. However TES fans need to learn that this isn't a single player game. I hardly believe this game will come anywhere near destroying the TES universe. How is having harder content going to destroy the TES universe anyway? I plan on sticking around for a long time even if this decision sucks. I actually really enjoy this game minus the bugs and some of the design choices.

Difficult should be the group quests or parts,not the part wjere you are just seeing and exploring the other zones. Why in the wold do you think people disbanded once they arrived to VR? That difficulty makes you be distracted about the real meaning of the game,of the tes universe. This is not a Dark Souls mmo.
TES is about taking your time in other aspects,not the difficulty.

Well ZOS did state that vets were them trying to encourage people to group up. Everyone should know what their getting into.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

I agree when people don't agree with me, they are obviously not TES fans, and want to destroy the game.

Ojustaboo

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

I spent a good amount of time playing lotro. The content there wasn't nearly as unforgiving as the current VR content in ESO. Not even close. I see this comparison used a lot. It doesn't apply here. Not once in lotro did It feel like "one mistake and you are dead" outside of dungeons. And this was several years ago before it went F2P

I agree most of Lotro wasn't as hard as vet, but I think a lot was much closer to how many people find ESO vet content than you remember.

Regardless of whether you or I am right on that issue, if you are right it rings alarm bells even more as they still nerfed and nerfed and nerfed Lotro until you end up with the mess you have now.

If it wasn't as hard as I remember it, then why the need to keep making it easier, and that is my ESO concern, no matter how easier they make it, there will always be a vocal crowd demanding it's made even easier.

ESO you could explore everywhere and solo all quests from 1 to 49 (not counting dungeons etc). You couldn't do that in Lotro in its pre F2P days, loads of normal quests were impossible for most if tried on level while soloing.

Sure many mobs you met walking about in Lotro were no real need for any panic, but there were plenty of non dungeon parts that on your own at level you would struggle and very often die.

A few examples,

The Shire, the camp north of Rushmore Bog with the Dourhand Dwarves
The Shire, the two Goblin camps north of Greenfields
Lonelands, Elite spider area and Goblin camp south of forsaken inn
Lonelands, Nan Dhelu
Lonelands, Trolls in southern swamp
and quite a few more in Lonelands, plenty of examples in most other areas too, Moria used to be awesome and was my favourite place and many many non dungeon parts were really challenging

There was a LOT of non dungeon content designed for fellowship (groups) that probably weren't far off how many people find ESO vet content when soloing.

I initially created my burg for the sole reason of its fellowship manoeuvre ability. When I left Lotro I hadn't had to use fellowship manoeuvres in months.

All that said, I suspect Zenimax will only tweak the difficulty slightly to try and please everyone and if that is what they do, I have a feeling most people who found vet too hard will still find it too hard. Zenimax made it too easy to get to vet, only a few parts forced you to think (and those such as Doshia were then nerfed)

I hate people saying l2p, but the simple fact is, the way ESO is designed, you don't need to understand your class until you reach vet, then it's a completely different experience, and I doubt making it slightly easier will change what it feels like for the majority who currently struggle with it.

The main difference between ESO and most other MMOs (including lotro) is that in most other games, players don't feel pressured into a cookie cutter meta build unless they want to run dungeons or raids. There is a very significant number of people that are quite content to do their own thing and quest their way to lvl cap.

Since ESO VR zones are literally 2/3 of the content, it looks and feels like normal progression to lvl cap. Therefore many people feel forced into theory crafting and meta builds just to progress to lvl cap.

If I recall, the lvl cap in lotro was lvl 50. So it would be the same if lotro made everything from lvl 17+ just as difficult as lvl 50 dungeons.

The idea was for VR zones to be presented as some kind of end game. And there in lies the flaw. It's much too large and structured like normal progression. People hitting a hard mode wall at lvl 17 in lotro would be an accurate comparison imo. Otherwise it just doesn't apply.

Fair point.

I agree totally with your cookie cutter build comment.

But I'm not convinced simply making the area easier will make it better for most.

They needed to do some skill balancing so that the average vet areas are doable with say your pets summoned or if you want to use a bow as your main weapon etc.

I think many people now expressing delight will feel rather dissapointed come next week.

I've always said vet needs a serious rethink, I just think simply lowing the difficulty a little will end up annoying more people than it pleases.

As I've said elsewhere, part of the problem is that 1 to 49 doesnt really require that much thought hence when they hit vet level they hit the scenario you describe.

There should have been a steady increase in difficulty but sadly that boat has now sailed.

Maybe they need to really lower vet 1, lower vet 2 slightly less and leave vet 12 as it is and have the difficulty increasing each vet level. Then it won't be the brick wall for those starting vet, and those at vet 12 still have their hard content?

Then they could also work on less hard vet 12 pve content for those wanting less of a challenge?

So I don't disagree with your post but I still think Zenimax could achieve their goals without ruining it for those enjoying the challenge.

Ojustaboo

RazielSR wrote: »

Its starting to be clear who are the tes fans and who are the random mmo players that wont be supporting this game and are just elitists and so called hardcore players. ZOS made a perfect decision with the VR now and a bunch of players that will be rushing the next mmo are now trying to destroy TES universe. Good for ZOS that they can see it with metadata and real information,not random polls with no value or random players rushing the whole mmos.

To copy my reply to your same post in another thread:

So people have different opinions to you so they must be elitists and can't be TES fans?

My guild is a casual guild where fun is the main aim. It isn't a huge guild about 55 currently playing ESO, only one so far has expressed liking the change, many have anounced hating it.

I'm vet 3, I played Lotro for many years as did most of my guild, this is our new home. Sure theres a few with zero interest in TES, but the vast majority love TES which is what bought us here.

12 of us were grouped in PvP last night, some were discussing various TES law over voice chat as we played.

Most of us love TES, I started with Morrowind and have played every game since with eager anticipation.

We also all like mmos, the guild was founded years ago for Lotro.

Yes we all love soloing, we also all love grouping. Some play 99% grouped (in vet) others like myself solo 4 or 5 days and group a couple of nights a week for a dungeon or pvp. But if I got stuck while soloing I wouldn't hesitate calling for help and grouping for a few mins to overcome whatevers blocking my progress.

We are loving PvP (well will when its more than 4 FPS and the cheaters are dealt with) and we are loving the rest too.

We intend to be here for years.

The group content was meant originally to be ready for release but they had to push it back.

They said months prior to release about the 12 and 4 man group stuff.

We all think they got the TES / MMO balance pretty good.

The fact is, this isn't a single player TES game its both TES and MMO, and my guild loves it and will be here for years

You are calling my TES and mmo loving guild elitist and you couldn't be further from the truth,

Heres part of the "About Us" from my TES loving guilds website (a guild not happy with the changes to vet) to show what an elitist bunch we are

We are a relaxed friendly guild which aims to let the casual gamer still enjoy every aspect of gaming and be influential.

We intend to explore all aspects of the game through to end game, but to do so over time.

We have many members from across Europe and many with families and as a result we are well suited to evening players with real-life commitments.

We embrace the variety our varied guild membership brings.

We have few requirements other than that you act in a friendly fashion to other members within the guild and help to support the guild members and events.

We are a mature guild with many members having busy lives and families. We are not a hardcore gaming clan so if that’s your style then unfortunately we’re not the guild for you.

That won’t stop us from trying to achieve all we can in our game time though. We will help each other with quests, groups and crafting but we won’t be power-leveling new recruits. That’s not our style.

All we expect from you is that you join in, have fun and don’t act like a muppet.

Any excessive instances of arguing, bragging, harassment, ninja looting, immature and disruptive behaviour will be reported to the Officers and will be scythed down with laser precision.

Nazon_Katts

Here's hoping it's just a workaround to get the zones populated again, till they've figured out the phasing issues. Phasing is so heavily use in world and leveling content, it's practically solo content.

Hence lowering the difficulty in VR is a better fix than non at all, as it clearly does not work out as group content for the majority of players. Of course it shouldn't be the only thing done to it, because people are right, this interim solution will run stale eventually, too.

Theosis

If they took away solo dungeons and made Everything Groupable regardless of phase, then they could leave things as they are with how hard it is.

People who are not happy are those who don't want to change the build they have because they are forced to change how they want to play so they can defeat bosses and quests with certain skills they don't want.

For example..

I had to get rid of vampire so that I could beat Molag Bal. If I could have taken a friend with me I would have been able to keep my skills as they were. Forced solo content is the very opposite of what an MMO is. I cant just call a guildy to help me on quests they have already done many times.

They should implement a way to let people join and help the person with the lowest lvl of a quest.

With this fixed everyone wins. People who want the hard content get what they want and those who want help can have it.

Akhratos

gunplummer wrote: »

I don't see why they can't just put a difficulty slider in. Give players a choice between tulip mode and bring 2 pairs of clean shorts mode, and somewhere in between. If a player wants to play a level 1 dungeon at VR12 or a VR12 dungeon at level 1 what is the big deal.

Sometimes i like to explore, but get annoyed with the constant fights, other times I want to slug it out while burning through 50 potions and 50 soul gems in a single battle. I just don't want to do either all the time.

I would gladly invest my time and money in a game that could offer both.

Because, if the slider had "n" positions or different difficulty levels, it would mean ZOS had to multiply the number of phased areas by "n" times.

You are playing in an online environment, it can not be constantly adjusting the mobs/npcs everytime a different player comes in, so the server would need to hold a lot more phasing, wich would be horrible for the server performance.

Akhratos

Laura wrote: »

I forsee a plethora of bads in end game content now.

You mean like the VR1 baddies already leveling in Craglorn but without turning the complete zone in a "LF exploit farming Hircines group" or "LF anomaly/bosses group"?

Id rather have some baddies ready to do the Craglorn content that the actual garbage you see now.

Btw, I think ZOS should make Craglorn content a LOT harder. Trials and 4man dungeons there are a joke (so I doubt any baddie will struggle if they still do vr1-10 content).

AreoHotah

OMG you casuals are destryong every game... i'm facerolling vr9 as nb full medium dual daggers... you know, the weakest class?? Bah...

Akhratos

Arsenic_Touch wrote: »

Loco_Mofo wrote: »

Implying that difficulty is the sole issue?

• The story is no longer believable
• It's unrewarding
• Progression slows down to a snails pace

All the above make VR content a boring grind. The challenge is what kept me going.

The story is believable but you're right about the rest. There is no carrot. The progression in this game after level 49 is terrible. Players always seek the path of least resistance and rewards, that's currently craglorn.

You can grind out your levels and get better rewards in a fraction of the time compared to doing cadwell's silver and gold. That is the real reason those zones are empty, it was evident the moment they released craglorn and people realized that they didn't have to slowly level with nothing to show for it.

Not to mention the fact that the majority of players haven't even hit veteran content yet. But if it helps these folks feel better to pretend that the difficulty is the reason for empty zones, so be it. They'll be the ones responsible for ushering in changes that have caused hemorrhaging in every previous mmo to date.

The story is believable?? Seriously??


You are supossedly sent to the "past" or an "alternate past" to know what would have happened if you ever came to other alliance after breaking from Coldharbour.

The whole point being, Molag Bal is the real threat, stop the stupid alliance-mind and work together. Everything else is out of scope, you human weaklings!

After it, you notice you can not do main story questline to stop the planemeld, nor fighters or mages guild questline that are focused on the planemeld threat as well. You are trapped doing OTHER ALLIANCES quests.... Kind of funny when that is supposed to be the opposite of what Meridia wanted to show you.

Yes, the whole point of Meridia is very well driven by the game. /sarcasm

Sihnfahl

AlienDiplomat wrote: »

I posted a request for a dolmen run today in the v8 zone and within 2 minutes we had 10 people in our group!

Try to do the same thing a month ago and you'd maybe get two people. If you were lucky.

Shunravi

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Alphashado wrote: »

Ojustaboo wrote: »

Reading this and other threads it's obvious there are two strongly opposing views on the subject.

I have read a fair few comments where some posters pleased with the upcoming nerf have basically implied they couldn't care less if everyone that likes challenging content leaves.

The mmo market is flooded. Most companies with good financial backing and good IP could copy the EQ and WOW approach, follow the crowd, and almost guarantee they will make a good return.

From the start Zenimax said they wouldn't be doing this, they never hid how hard the vet stuff would be and many players tired of how faceroll many mmos have become, had high hopes for ESO.

Zenimax are the ones who said what their aims were, now the masses seem to be saying they want more of the same old.

Lotro used to be a fun challenging and very very active game. Some people complained they couldn't solo parts. Lotro tried to be accommodating, promising all would be great for all etc.

Bit by bit Lotro got dumbed down and each time more and more players left, the more that left the easier they made it to attract new players, and it was often refered to as them appealing to the facebook crowd.

And over time, more and more people left until it got to the point where they released expansions without any raid or real group content as it wasnt worth their while. As they had made the game too easy for the people who liked group content, and taking away the need to really group (making many group skills redundant in the process), most people who liked challenging content had moved to other mmos.

Many Lotro players myself included have lifetime accounts, we don't have to pay a penny to play plus get 500 points each month to spend in their store. I haven't logged on for months and I know a LOT of others who also haven't.

The last time I played Lotro, to prove a point, I rolled a new alt, never bought any armour, only ever used button number 1 (one skill) and got to level 20 without coming close to dying, there were only a couple of times my health bar went below 50%. I was using no pots, wasn't eating any food, there was simply zero skill to it.

We aren't talking about a unknown IP, we are talking about the world of Tolkien. And that world is now a virtually dead one. There's one roleplaying server that is very active, thats because they are more interested in stuff like holding in game concerts than questing. Theres a few die hard Tolkien fans that love his world too much to leave, then there's the rest of us.

Person after person complained about everything being nerfed, person after person said they didnt want to leave, many having invested more than 5 odd years in Lotro.

But at the same time there were others demanding the ability to solo all of it, demand they get the same rewards as those putting in 5 times more time and effort. Calling those complaining about the nerfs whiners and haters. Saying they couldn't care less if they all left.

But most did leave, most servers are now a ghost town, the housing revamp promised last year is still on hold, many many staff (actual programmers etc) were recently laid off and the game is dying. Sure it can plod on for a few more years but I bet if you go to their (heavily censored) forum now, there will be threads asking for server merges or complaining everything's too easy.

You will also find threads from people happy their servers are almost empty, happy they don't bump into many people, happy they can kill any mob without thinking.

But if you look at the size of lotro now to what it was a couple of years ago (again we are talking about the only mmo you can explore Tolkiens world in) it's in a pretty sorry state.

And it all started because people demanded easier content, demanded that they should never have to group etc.

I know many ex Lotro players who are loving ESO including the vet content. They came to ESO for the end game promised by Zenimax, as it was going to be challenging and different from what most othet mmos have become.

Seeing the nerfs such as Doshia, reading about the vet nerfs, it looks like we are heading down the same route as many other games, almost all of them suffered by doing this, only difference is most of the other games took years not months to achieve this.

Many of the players that left ESO would have done so even if vet content was a faceroll, they simply expected something different once they got to vet and I doubt making it easier will bring many back for any real length of time, it might get some back for a month or two before they realise it wasn't really the difficulty they had the problem with, then they will be off again bad mouthing ESO on all the other forums only this time many players who were enjoying the challenging parts of ESO will probably have gone too.

Then the management will demand action, further drastic knee jerk reactions will be put in place and the game that most of us currently enjoy (I realise parts arent liked by some, whether pvp, vet or pve) will no longer exist and we will have a very generic faceroll game that causes more and more people to jump ship.

I get it and I agree they needed to add further end game content that was easier for those struggling or for those who don't like grouping, but this should have been done in addition to the current end game content many people are currently enjoying, it should not have been done at the expense of the current end game content.

Just be very careful what you wish for, it might come back to haunt you.

Apologies in advance for any typos, on tablet, it's late and I'm tired.

I spent a good amount of time playing lotro. The content there wasn't nearly as unforgiving as the current VR content in ESO. Not even close. I see this comparison used a lot. It doesn't apply here. Not once in lotro did It feel like "one mistake and you are dead" outside of dungeons. And this was several years ago before it went F2P

I agree most of Lotro wasn't as hard as vet, but I think a lot was much closer to how many people find ESO vet content than you remember.

Regardless of whether you or I am right on that issue, if you are right it rings alarm bells even more as they still nerfed and nerfed and nerfed Lotro until you end up with the mess you have now.

If it wasn't as hard as I remember it, then why the need to keep making it easier, and that is my ESO concern, no matter how easier they make it, there will always be a vocal crowd demanding it's made even easier.

ESO you could explore everywhere and solo all quests from 1 to 49 (not counting dungeons etc). You couldn't do that in Lotro in its pre F2P days, loads of normal quests were impossible for most if tried on level while soloing.

Sure many mobs you met walking about in Lotro were no real need for any panic, but there were plenty of non dungeon parts that on your own at level you would struggle and very often die.

A few examples,

The Shire, the camp north of Rushmore Bog with the Dourhand Dwarves
The Shire, the two Goblin camps north of Greenfields
Lonelands, Elite spider area and Goblin camp south of forsaken inn
Lonelands, Nan Dhelu
Lonelands, Trolls in southern swamp
and quite a few more in Lonelands, plenty of examples in most other areas too, Moria used to be awesome and was my favourite place and many many non dungeon parts were really challenging

There was a LOT of non dungeon content designed for fellowship (groups) that probably weren't far off how many people find ESO vet content when soloing.

I initially created my burg for the sole reason of its fellowship manoeuvre ability. When I left Lotro I hadn't had to use fellowship manoeuvres in months.

All that said, I suspect Zenimax will only tweak the difficulty slightly to try and please everyone and if that is what they do, I have a feeling most people who found vet too hard will still find it too hard. Zenimax made it too easy to get to vet, only a few parts forced you to think (and those such as Doshia were then nerfed)

I hate people saying l2p, but the simple fact is, the way ESO is designed, you don't need to understand your class until you reach vet, then it's a completely different experience, and I doubt making it slightly easier will change what it feels like for the majority who currently struggle with it.

The main difference between ESO and most other MMOs (including lotro) is that in most other games, players don't feel pressured into a cookie cutter meta build unless they want to run dungeons or raids. There is a very significant number of people that are quite content to do their own thing and quest their way to lvl cap.

Since ESO VR zones are literally 2/3 of the content, it looks and feels like normal progression to lvl cap. Therefore many people feel forced into theory crafting and meta builds just to progress to lvl cap.

If I recall, the lvl cap in lotro was lvl 50. So it would be the same if lotro made everything from lvl 17+ just as difficult as lvl 50 dungeons.

The idea was for VR zones to be presented as some kind of end game. And there in lies the flaw. It's much too large and structured like normal progression. People hitting a hard mode wall at lvl 17 in lotro would be an accurate comparison imo. Otherwise it just doesn't apply.

The worst things for me Is that the progression was not made more gradual in the vet zones. And of course the craglorn difficulty mess up. And that the vet content does not feel like a true continuation of your characters story to many. And definately that v12 is the true max lvl, not 50.

I wish people would not feel pressured to use min maxed/fotm builds to get by, because, simply put, you don't need to. This comes from both my experience, as well as that of my guildies. (Oh look, there I go again, being elite). Of all the veterans in my guild, >60% got where they are without resorting to fotm builds. We still have v12s asking if they should restro/destro to run with us. We always say no if it requires them to change their playstyle.

Throughout my leveling experience, whenever someone in my guild asked what I had on my bar, as often as not, I would get the response "you actually use that?" Especially from the min/maxers.

I bet I sound a lot like this to many of you:

AreoHotah wrote: »

OMG you casuals are destryong every game... i'm facerolling vr9 as nb full medium dual daggers... you know, the weakest class?? Bah...

If you put a rage/insult filter on, this is not saying 'I'm a better player than you! I can do what you worthless scrubs can't! Bow before me! [Fapity fapity fap fap fap]," it's saying please "guys, when you hit the wall, just start paying attention to the obvious red glowing tells and chargeups and counter or move. It's not too much of a gap in playstyle, and you may not even have to mess with your build to much. Don't panic and go by what the 'elites' say, restro/destro is not the only way to go!!! Please listen! I did the content with what is widely considered a very weak build! Have a bit of encouragement, it's not impossible!"

Or course, I'm a bit biased towords that point of view, and he could actually be saying that, but I don't know him, so I can't make that judgement.

So, go ahaid, hate me.