The Elder Scrolls Online and why it will ultimately fail

Welid

Watch and see the rise of the impatient beings as they expect a perfect service where every single individual matters.

The truth is, as you will learn if you are lucky, you are nothing but a number. Statistics is what matters if you are not part of the majority, you better find a game where you are or spend your days feeling negative and thinking you matter.

hamon

Mablung wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

ultimately fail at what exactly? seems like a silly question but in truth it gets to the heart of the issue.
what they actually set out to achieve would dictate if they have failed or not.

if they wanted to simply make a profit i think they have succeeded.

if they wanted to make a lasting MMO worthy of the elder scrolls franchise with broad appeal i think they have failed.

where they have succeeded is making a benchmark for how MMO's should look in 2014

Why must we view it from their perspective in regards to failing or succeeding? My belief is that the game is failing because of some very large tumors in this community. Some of which have spread to this very thread. Nothing constructive or positive ever comes from any of their posts no matter what the topic is, especially if it is created by some with real issues about the game.

It is pure speculation on our part to say whether the game is successful or a failure based upon the company objectives. We do not know what those objectives are and do not know the results.

Ultimately we do know that there are fewer and fewer friends, guildmates and random people in the zones. My contention is no only is this symptomatic of the game flaws but because of this community.

If people had someone to commiserate with, they might stick around and tough it out through the growing pains. So many White Knights though tell them the game is better off without them. Those angry about the game then think, screw it. Its not worth it, when we can as a community can make it worth it.

I hope I answered your question.

not really cos after naming the thread "why i think it will ultimately fail" I was pointing out that with no frame of refrence as to what failure would be , it becomes hard to debate whether it will ultimately fail or not.

everyone from customers to zos will have thier own interpretation of where failure is. So we need to decide where to put it for the purpose of this thread.

fail to make money? fail to last 5 years? fail to please a certain demographic of players?

from my perspective it clearly has failed in some ways but in fairness has succeded in others so far.

I am not sure why you want to itemize failure. That is not the intent of my post. As a whole the game will fail not only because of game flaws but ultimately because of this community.

i'm not dissagreeing with your post , i'm just trying to examine it from the perspective of your thread title. Failure or success are subjective untill we settle on a clear objective that either is missed or achieved in some way.

Then it becomes much easier to discuss the causes of the failure.

where the community has hurt itself. is in a severe lack of being able to see things from without the bubble of their own personal prefrences for the game. The devs also seem very slow to react to things compounding the battles on the forum because issues of contention are allowed to persist far too long without a fix or ZOS stating exactly how they are going to fix an issue.

badmojo

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

AelyinESO

Mablung wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good reference. I had forgot how bad that community was and how vocal. But guess what, they changed the game because of the community.

@Mablung not only Diablo 3, if you check many "POP" MMO's Games you will see a huge list of complains.

So, we just have one way, make positive and negative feedbacks, and wait. Yes, wait. what can we do? for now, just feedbacks.

Now! What about less conversation and more action? RIFT VR Zone! need players! :P

Cya Around!

ShedsHisTail

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

ultimately fail at what exactly? seems like a silly question but in truth it gets to the heart of the issue.
what they actually set out to achieve would dictate if they have failed or not.

if they wanted to simply make a profit i think they have succeeded.

if they wanted to make a lasting MMO worthy of the elder scrolls franchise with broad appeal i think they have failed.

where they have succeeded is making a benchmark for how MMO's should look in 2014

Why must we view it from their perspective in regards to failing or succeeding? My belief is that the game is failing because of some very large tumors in this community. Some of which have spread to this very thread. Nothing constructive or positive ever comes from any of their posts no matter what the topic is, especially if it is created by some with real issues about the game.

It is pure speculation on our part to say whether the game is successful or a failure based upon the company objectives. We do not know what those objectives are and do not know the results.

Ultimately we do know that there are fewer and fewer friends, guildmates and random people in the zones. My contention is no only is this symptomatic of the game flaws but because of this community.

If people had someone to commiserate with, they might stick around and tough it out through the growing pains. So many White Knights though tell them the game is better off without them. Those angry about the game then think, screw it. Its not worth it, when we can as a community can make it worth it.

I hope I answered your question.

not really cos after naming the thread "why i think it will ultimately fail" I was pointing out that with no frame of refrence as to what failure would be , it becomes hard to debate whether it will ultimately fail or not.

everyone from customers to zos will have thier own interpretation of where failure is. So we need to decide where to put it for the purpose of this thread.

fail to make money? fail to last 5 years? fail to please a certain demographic of players?

from my perspective it clearly has failed in some ways but in fairness has succeded in others so far.

I am not sure why you want to itemize failure. That is not the intent of my post. As a whole the game will fail not only because of game flaws but ultimately because of this community.

i'm not dissagreeing with your post , i'm just trying to examine it from the perspective of your thread title. Failure or success are subjective untill we settle on a clear objective that either is missed or achieved in some way.

Then it becomes much easier to discuss the causes of the failure.

Yup.

Perphection

Game fails because the Dev's are ***. We all bought this game expecting Bethesda quality, we were all let down.

Perphection

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Any time people are allowed to post opinions and hearsay in an anonymous fashion, the resulting "community" is going to be despicable. This fact is easily exemplified in today's society, where accountability is a thing of the past. It is simple really. Do what you enjoy doing with those you enjoy doing those things with. Everything else will fall into place. Nothing can be done in a forum about how disguesting people can be. Sad, but true.

I'll gladly give you my name and phone number, you can call me and I'll still tell you these devs are trash.

AelyinESO

Perphection wrote: »

Game fails because the Dev's are ***. We all bought this game expecting Bethesda quality, we were all let down.

Don't blame me! , but IF the game is a fail about DEV's (LOL) We're all fails! people that are here wasting our precious time (and money)!

We need to make our part, we're trying, so for now, we just need to wait (till you can).

Ohh! but I'm paying for it!, if you're not satisfied, you can:

- Cancel;
- Freeze Account;
- Keep Paying.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

MMORPGs will - by definition - have horrible communities. When proximity between humans is reduced, empathy takes a nose dive.

Couple that with the fact that you cannot see your fellow gamers' faces (unless you're on video chat) and you have a serious dehumanization of everyone else involved.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it technology-induced psychopathy, but it definitely trends in that direction.

Mablung

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

ErykGrimm

Perphection wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Any time people are allowed to post opinions and hearsay in an anonymous fashion, the resulting "community" is going to be despicable. This fact is easily exemplified in today's society, where accountability is a thing of the past. It is simple really. Do what you enjoy doing with those you enjoy doing those things with. Everything else will fall into place. Nothing can be done in a forum about how disguesting people can be. Sad, but true.

I'll gladly give you my name and phone number, you can call me and I'll still tell you these devs are trash.

A phone call is accountability? I understand you are reaching for an argument, but really? A realistic argument from your "perspective" would be to have an actual dialogue with the developers, the people that put months and years of their lives into putting this game together and still telling them (to their face) they are trash. I am not affiliated with Zenimax or Bethesda so your opinion does not matter to me in the slightest.

Brizz

When a game and it's developers make an amazing game that players fall in love with, and constantly create new bugs when they are supposedly "fixing" old ones, there's going to be a lot of frustration.

Some players vent this in a positive way, others aren't so mature and just scream nonsense.

The main letdown is the developer failed promises and poor implementation. Take this latest patch for instance. Instead of fixing the staggering amount of current bugs and issues effecting players gameplay, they introduce new unneeded "features" that create a whole new list of bugs and client issues.

hamon

Mablung wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

yes the diffrence is most folk who are angry and complaining turn their guns on the DEVS. they are unhappy with a product and see fit to complain..
what makes it turn toxic is the folk who then decide they need to attack the folk who are already unhappy with the product.

i mean if some guy came into a shop to complain about something he bought and was arguing with the shopkeeper , would these same forum warriors run into the shop to tell the guy to "suck it up" "L2- accept broken goods " or scream " zomg you entitlement generation, imagine expecting your stuff to work just cos you paid for it"

indytims_ESO

First off... Anyone who comes to a forum and lets the opinions of some spiteful *** affect their OWN opinion, is just a sheep, and in that matter, I am personally glad if that part of the gene-pool decides to stay away from ESO.

Secondly... it won't be the whiners/haters here who cause the game to fail. They might -think- their drivel will end the game, while they POST that they 'just love the game and want to see it succeed', etc, etc, etc. It's hogwash. Anonymous people on the internet are spiteful, hateful, and can BE *** because they know there is no consequence for their words or actions. NONE of them would act the way they do here in front of others, because they'd end up eating fists pretty regularly, and that would dissuade them from being *** openly. It's the cowardly hiding on the net that allows them to do what they do.

Thirdly... Zenimax CAN FIX THIS. All they have to do is BLOW OUR MINDS. Fix the stuff that needs fixing, add the things that need adding. Basically, fulfill their 'vision' of the game, and I think that would satisfy the bulk of the players. In general, people whine and cancel BECAUSE they aren't happy with the game. Yes, there will be that small percentage of haters that will hate no matter what Zeni does. But by and large, people generally just want to have fun, and that's hard to do with so many lingering issues.

Lastly - this is nothing new. I've seen this kind of 'poison' on WoW forums, EVE forums, EQ forums, and I vividly remember the Vanguard forums which was a far worse launch than this one, so on and so forth. The internet world gives places for people to spread negativity without consequence. and there's really nothing we can do about it.

But Zeni can.

Just blow our minds.

SFBryan18

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

yes the diffrence is most folk who are angry and complaining turn their guns on the DEVS. they are unhappy with a product and see fit to complain..
what makes it turn toxic is the folk who then decide they need to attack the folk who are already unhappy with the product.

i mean if some guy came into a shop to complain about something he bought and was arguing with the shopkeeper , would these same forum warriors run into the shop to tell the guy to "suck it up" "L2- accept broken goods " or scream " zomg you entitlement generation, imagine expecting your stuff to work just cos you paid for it"

If it was a store I liked and the customer was throwing a tantrum, I might get involved, yes. Wouldn't be the first time I've spoken my mind to rude people in public.

someuser

reggielee wrote: »

wait...um, so the game will fail due to forum posts? What about the large percentage of players that never go to the forums?

Hot diggie dog! You're onto something @reggielee

badmojo

Mablung wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

I am tolerant of their views. I might suggest someone finds another game to play, or "attack" the ideas they put forth in their posts, but I would never ask them to shut up, or ask them to censor their feelings towards this game, or towards me. I give them that attention not because they are against the game, developers or whatever, I "attack" their ideas because I disagree with them. The same way they attack my ideas when they disagree with me.

It was specifically the sentence "It is these individuals that need to be reigned in and subdued so that disgruntled customers can be retained." that really bothered me. I couldn't disagree more with it. Nobody should be reigned in and subdued for giving their opinion, on either side. I also disagree that anything should be done(by the community) to retain disgruntled customers. I feel like they are the "tumors" in this community, but even so, I don't think they should be removed from it, or given any special treatment.

In fact, when people respond to the "hater posts" with hostility and confrontation, it's not in an attempt to run them out of this community. It's an attempt to express their disagreement. Your whole thread here comes across like you want us to ignore the haters, for the good of the community. But, I couldn't think of a worse way to build a community. How is ignoring them and not responding honestly going to help anything?

Lalai

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

yes the diffrence is most folk who are angry and complaining turn their guns on the DEVS. they are unhappy with a product and see fit to complain..
what makes it turn toxic is the folk who then decide they need to attack the folk who are already unhappy with the product.

i mean if some guy came into a shop to complain about something he bought and was arguing with the shopkeeper , would these same forum warriors run into the shop to tell the guy to "suck it up" "L2- accept broken goods " or scream " zomg you entitlement generation, imagine expecting your stuff to work just cos you paid for it"

Depending on the language the disgruntled person was using, I very well might. As an example, I've had a friend rip into a Subway person because she wanted her flat bread toasted, or heated, Subway was busy.. the timer popped and he opened the oven and went back to the customer ahead of us that he was serving first. She unloaded on him, with all sorts of insults, because her bread was getting cold. I told her to calm down, and went back later to apologize to the employee. A good portion of that comes from having worked in customer service and knowing first hand how a lot of customers treat the front line employees (like calling people lazy, stupid, or incompetent).

On topic.. this forum is honestly no better/worse than other forums. I've yet to see any actual blind fanboys.. the ones who insist there is nothing wrong with the game. I see a lot of people urging criticisms to be more constructive, and not just angry rants.. which has more to do with civility. I also see a lot of people who take a difference of opinion as a personal attack.

I don't agree with a lot of the more popular "I hate this feature" views. I like Veteran content, I like that there isn't really an AH, and want to see where the whole guild store with kiosks idea takes us, I like that I can do all the things on one character, that dependence on gear isn't so much of a thing, and that I can join five guilds. Of course I'm not going to want things I like to change, and I don't really care if the majority (if it truly is that) think they should change. Yeah, losing people may cause the game to go F2P, and then I'd probably quit.. but to me, that's really no different than the game changing all these things that I actually like, and then that causing me to quit. The outcome for me is the same, and I'm selfish in that I want the game to be fun for me to play... in the same way that I don't think anyone who wants the game to change truly wants it to change so the game gets more people. You want it to change so that you'll enjoy it... you personally.

However, for whatever reason, some folks seem to insist that their negative criticism is good.. but the positive stuff isn't. The negative stuff is negative, especially in regards to features, to the people who actually like the core game as is (we're not talking bugs). Someone speaking up who likes the features though, is fairly often referred to as a fanboy, and immediately told their hurting the game they love. Attacks should not be okay from either side (yet threads like this only ever point fingers at one), and both sides should respect that everyone just wants a game they're gonna like.

Breg_Magol

Mablung wrote: »

<snip>
...
What never fails however is the quick attacks, insults and attempts to discredit these posters by those who allegedly love and support this game.

It is these people that will ultimately drive the players away from the game. It is these individuals that need to be reigned in and subdued so that disgruntled customers can be retained. I know I for one do not want to play on an empty server but I cannot say that for the aggressors on these forums.
<snip
...

Not quite accurate, but I 'get' the sentiment. In fact both sides of the divide have been equally toxic.

It is remiss of you to point the figure only at the supporters, just as it would be misleading of one to point the finger and accuse those who feel they are voicing legitimate concerns.

We are in agreement however, that there is no excuse for adults to resort to insulting and hurtful language when discussing their point of view on the state of the game. Whether it's for or against is completely immaterial, and a personal sense of frustration is not an excuse either.

As a fellow person, I feel for anyone who feels the sting of insult on a forum; as long as they are themselves without fault in their communication to the wider forum.

To my fellow travellers I advocate peace, goodwill, humour and patience above all (and I struggle with that too). Obviously it is an individual's personal choice for if they decide to sub or un-sub, but hysteria degrades the quality of the decision we make. Whatever road we take, it's inspiring when faced with dignity.

Cheers!

Cogo

indytims_ESO wrote: »

Lastly - this is nothing new. I've seen this kind of 'poison' on WoW forums, EVE forums, EQ forums,

Yep! Was there. EQ forums had trolls, bad, good, really idiotic with people saying they would seek out someone and blow up their house with a Bazooka (Zeboruxruk)

Was awesome in those days, when a moron bought an ebay account with a high level raider, who we all known quit, who then came and applied to guilds. That made a big laugh. I still have a link to it. 11 years old.
EQ community had the power to kick out any "gold buyer". With ease.

However, the community kept going. Didn't come to a complete stop like this.
I think we can build here tough!

On topic.
I feel sorry for the OP.

Its me he means by "white knight" and with my positive attitude and discussion in complaining feedback. Its been said that I have with my posts and replies driven away players who are complaining. He doesn't want to break any rules by mentioning me, which is perfectly understandable. (Please no mod take any action.)

I am sorry, if anything I say is out of line, please tell me, or report me, because I do not want to be one of those kinds of people.

However, this isn't kindergarden. When you post your opinion, you take the heat for it. I do......I see no reason why only pointless complaining posts should get a free pass, as long as its in a community manner.

Any detailed feedback offered to Zenimax, as in their fantastic thread, I want more of it. I'd like less post there which has no information to give them.

Cheer up buddy, you actually have good things to say at times.
ESO will not fail! But...clock is ticking on this Cyro/graglorn group bug thing.

Mablung

Cogo wrote: »

On topic.
I feel sorry for the OP.

Don't feel sorry for me, feel sorry for this community and game.

Cogo wrote: »

Its me he means by "white knight" and with my positive attitude and discussion in complaining feedback. Its been said that I have with my posts and replies driven away players who are complaining. He doesn't want to break any rules by mentioning me, which is perfectly understandable. (Please no mod take any action.)

My post was not aimed at any one specific individual.

Cogo wrote: »

I am sorry, if anything I say is out of line, please tell me, or report me, because I do not want to be one of those kinds of people.

However, this isn't kindergarden. When you post your opinion, you take the heat for it. I do......I see no reason why only pointless complaining posts should get a free pass, as long as its in a community manner.

The difference is that those like you comment and attempt to force their views on someone who is simply stating issue with the game. Be that mechanics, features, bugs, etc. Those views/opinions are generally irrelevant to the posters topic.

Cogo wrote: »

Cheer up buddy, you actually have good things to say at times.

Another veiled insult. Typical.

Cogo

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

MMORPGs will - by definition - have horrible communities. When proximity between humans is reduced, empathy takes a nose dive.

Couple that with the fact that you cannot see your fellow gamers' faces (unless you're on video chat) and you have a serious dehumanization of everyone else involved.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it technology-induced psychopathy, but it definitely trends in that direction.

Nah, to this day, EQ2, EVE, think Ive seen quite good nature over at rift at times.
Maybe not always nice nice, but nevertheless a community that works. Discuss and in EVEs case, is joined by DEVS. Mostly because they sit in the same room in Iceland ;-).

The community is what we make it to. Nothing else.

Check back to May....and compare with this thread. Any difference? ;-)
Not even close right.

Breg_Magol

Perphection wrote: »

ErykGrimm wrote: »

Any time people are allowed to post opinions and hearsay in an anonymous fashion, the resulting "community" is going to be despicable. This fact is easily exemplified in today's society, where accountability is a thing of the past. It is simple really. Do what you enjoy doing with those you enjoy doing those things with. Everything else will fall into place. Nothing can be done in a forum about how disguesting people can be. Sad, but true.

I'll gladly give you my name and phone number, you can call me and I'll still tell you these devs are trash.

This is an example of a subjective opinion that is insulting and hurtful. I would not be inclined to produce one single thing more for anyone who says this in public. Nor would I be inclined to come to these forums to face the wall of noise.

Of course ALL our opinions of the game are subjective at this point, but a better way of expressing an opinion would be to express what is problematic dispassionately. I have seen list after list of things that people say are broken. I agree with some and disagree with others .. so many times it is subjective, however that's beside the point. The point being that we can choose to use the language of a gutter-snipe free from consequence, or we can choose to communicate as if the other people matter to us.

Hadria

Lalai wrote: »

hamon wrote: »

Mablung wrote: »

badmojo wrote: »

I guess since you skipped my question, I must be a tumor on this community? Sweet!

My question still stands though, and I'm interested in your view on the subject. Why do I have to love the haters in order to truly love the game? Why do disgruntled customers have to be catered to, but I have to be "reigned in and subdued" because I speak my mind to them?

It's such a silly argument you keep making in every thread. These disgruntled customers *** me off sometimes, so I speak my mind to them a lot. I'm sure I *** off some disgruntled customers. But, you want to "reigned in and subdued" only me?

You don't see the hypocrisy in your argument? Of course not, who am I kidding.

I missed your post, sorry about that. However, you give a perfect example of what I am talking about with this post. I am not saying nor am I implying that you have to love the 'haters'. I am saying be tolerant of their experience. As I stated in my initial post, yes there are some people that seem to be full of fire and brimstone but just ignore them like I do for the most part when I see tumors posting.

Tolerance goes a long way. So what if you do not agree with their post about flaws, expectations or gaming experience. it is not about comparing yours to theirs. There is no hypocrisy. I seldom see posters who have a bad experience or are expressing their frustrations deliberately attacking or insulting people.

yes the diffrence is most folk who are angry and complaining turn their guns on the DEVS. they are unhappy with a product and see fit to complain..
what makes it turn toxic is the folk who then decide they need to attack the folk who are already unhappy with the product.

i mean if some guy came into a shop to complain about something he bought and was arguing with the shopkeeper , would these same forum warriors run into the shop to tell the guy to "suck it up" "L2- accept broken goods " or scream " zomg you entitlement generation, imagine expecting your stuff to work just cos you paid for it"

Depending on the language the disgruntled person was using, I very well might. As an example, I've had a friend rip into a Subway person because she wanted her flat bread toasted, or heated, Subway was busy.. the timer popped and he opened the oven and went back to the customer ahead of us that he was serving first. She unloaded on him, with all sorts of insults, because her bread was getting cold. I told her to calm down, and went back later to apologize to the employee. A good portion of that comes from having worked in customer service and knowing first hand how a lot of customers treat the front line employees (like calling people lazy, stupid, or incompetent).

On topic.. this forum is honestly no better/worse than other forums. I've yet to see any actual blind fanboys.. the ones who insist there is nothing wrong with the game. I see a lot of people urging criticisms to be more constructive, and not just angry rants.. which has more to do with civility. I also see a lot of people who take a difference of opinion as a personal attack.

I don't agree with a lot of the more popular "I hate this feature" views. I like Veteran content, I like that there isn't really an AH, and want to see where the whole guild store with kiosks idea takes us, I like that I can do all the things on one character, that dependence on gear isn't so much of a thing, and that I can join five guilds. Of course I'm not going to want things I like to change, and I don't really care if the majority (if it truly is that) think they should change. Yeah, losing people may cause the game to go F2P, and then I'd probably quit.. but to me, that's really no different than the game changing all these things that I actually like, and then that causing me to quit. The outcome for me is the same, and I'm selfish in that I want the game to be fun for me to play... in the same way that I don't think anyone who wants the game to change truly wants it to change so the game gets more people. You want it to change so that you'll enjoy it... you personally.

However, for whatever reason, some folks seem to insist that their negative criticism is good.. but the positive stuff isn't. The negative stuff is negative, especially in regards to features, to the people who actually like the core game as is (we're not talking bugs). Someone speaking up who likes the features though, is fairly often referred to as a fanboy, and immediately told their hurting the game they love. Attacks should not be okay from either side (yet threads like this only ever point fingers at one), and both sides should respect that everyone just wants a game they're gonna like.

I agree so much!!

Mablung

Lalai wrote: »

However, for whatever reason, some folks seem to insist that their negative criticism is good.. but the positive stuff isn't. The negative stuff is negative, especially in regards to features, to the people who actually like the core game as is (we're not talking bugs). Someone speaking up who likes the features though, is fairly often referred to as a fanboy, and immediately told their hurting the game they love. Attacks should not be okay from either side (yet threads like this only ever point fingers at one), and both sides should respect that everyone just wants a game they're gonna like.

This is a huge part of the problem. What you are labeling as negative is a concern for someone else. What you are labeling as positive is usually someone who is posting those opinions in a thread where it is irrelevant. It is one thing to attempt to persuade someone into liking things you may like it is another to attempt to bully them through insults, belittling or shrugging their views off as non important. This happens to the post you view as negative more frequently than those you view as positive.

Soothy

Mablung wrote: »

Cogo wrote: »

However, this isn't kindergarden. When you post your opinion, you take the heat for it. I do......I see no reason why only pointless complaining posts should get a free pass, as long as its in a community manner.

The difference is that those like you comment and attempt to force their views on someone who is simply stating issue with the game. Be that mechanics, features, bugs, etc. Those views/opinions are generally irrelevant to the posters topic.

This! This kind of behaviour resorts people to stop posting and just press the little insightful/agree/awesome/LOL buttons as clearly the things wrong with the game are only what you tell me they are...

"If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you..."

Mablung

badmojo wrote: »

I am tolerant of their views. I might suggest someone finds another game to play, or "attack" the ideas they put forth in their posts, but I would never ask them to shut up, or ask them to censor their feelings towards this game, or towards me. I give them that attention not because they are against the game, developers or whatever, I "attack" their ideas because I disagree with them. The same way they attack my ideas when they disagree with me.

There is no need to attack anything. Countering opinions is one thing. Countering someones frustration with mechanics, features is another. Like I have said many, many times people want to discredit others gaming experience through insults, attacks, etc.

badmojo wrote: »

It was specifically the sentence "It is these individuals that need to be reigned in and subdued so that disgruntled customers can be retained." that really bothered me. I couldn't disagree more with it. Nobody should be reigned in and subdued for giving their opinion, on either side. I also disagree that anything should be done(by the community) to retain disgruntled customers. I feel like they are the "tumors" in this community, but even so, I don't think they should be removed from it, or given any special treatment.

We will just have to agree to disagree about the reigning in statement I made. I feel that too many people are quick to pull the hate/whiner trigger on posters who complain about this game. Labels are easy to apply and it appears to make those defending the game feel better I guess.

badmojo wrote: »

In fact, when people respond to the "hater posts" with hostility and confrontation, it's not in an attempt to run them out of this community. It's an attempt to express their disagreement. Your whole thread here comes across like you want us to ignore the haters, for the good of the community. But, I couldn't think of a worse way to build a community. How is ignoring them and not responding honestly going to help anything?

Finally there is nothing wrong with disagreeing and stating it in a constructive manner. Hostility and confrontation is never acceptable nor is it constructive and has one end result.

Lalai

Mablung wrote: »

Lalai wrote: »

However, for whatever reason, some folks seem to insist that their negative criticism is good.. but the positive stuff isn't. The negative stuff is negative, especially in regards to features, to the people who actually like the core game as is (we're not talking bugs). Someone speaking up who likes the features though, is fairly often referred to as a fanboy, and immediately told their hurting the game they love. Attacks should not be okay from either side (yet threads like this only ever point fingers at one), and both sides should respect that everyone just wants a game they're gonna like.

This is a huge part of the problem. What you are labeling as negative is a concern for someone else. What you are labeling as positive is usually someone who is posting those opinions in a thread where it is irrelevant. It is one thing to attempt to persuade someone into liking things you may like it is another to attempt to bully them through insults, belittling or shrugging their views off as non important. This happens to the post you view as negative more frequently than those you view as positive.

I'm labeling it as negative because it's negative criticism. Negative criticism is when someone says something is being done wrong, or it's false and needs to be changed. Positive criticism would be saying when something is done right, and shouldn't be changed. Both are of value to developers.

I also don't see the multitudes of people you're referring to who are off topic and posting irrelevant stuff. Unless you're stating that offering a differing opinion is irrelevant in a thread discussing why something is an issue. I would also argue that it happens to negative posts the same percentage as it does to positive posts.. but the positive ones are not as plentiful, and thus you don't see it as much. If you have 1000 negative posts, and 100 positive ones, and both have a 10% chance of being attacked, you'll see 100 negative posts attacked, but only 10 positive ones attacked.. so the perception that it happens more frequently to negative posters would exist, but it'd be wrong.

It also depends on what you consider an attack. I've seen you throw around the term fanboy and white knight to discredit an opinion that is contradictory to your own. I've seen that with a lot of posters actually.. the moment they post something positive, regardless of how many criticisms they've given something in the past, they'll get a response along the lines of "you're just a fanboy". Or when a poll doesn't go the way a poster wants, they'll make a comment about the fanbois being out in force, when really, it's just that people have differing opinions.

No one should be actually attacking anyone. Pointing fingers, as you're doing when you're attributing the failure to one side only, is the very thing you're saying the community is doing wrong.

Updated to add: Oh, and the negative stuff being negative.. I guess can be confusing. What I meant was that I see a lot of people saying negative criticism helps the game, and positive criticism hurts it. What I was trying to point out was that, to people who like the game as is, negative criticism hurts the game in the same way that the negative criticism folks say positive criticism is hurting the game. When it comes to features, someone is going to be hurt regardless of what side you're on. If you're for change, then it's the people against it that end up thinking the change is gonna hurt the game. If you're against change, it's the people for change that think no change will hurt the game.

badmojo

I think you see some terms and automatically assume the worst Mablung.

Negative
Hostility
Attack
Confrontation

Sometimes these things can be very constructive. It all depends on the context in which they are used. Intent, as they say, is more important than the actual term used.

I could easily call this thread hostile towards honest people, I could say it is painting us in a negative light, and attacking our right to confront the people we disagree with.

Does me saying that make this thread bad? Toxic? Or un-constructive? I don't think so, it is what it is, the terms used and the negative overtone doesn't automatically make it bad, it's just language.

When I challenge people who complain on these forums, I do so in an attempt to give them more information. They should know that not everybody agrees. Attacking their ideas is a useful way to lead someone to the conclusion you've already come to. Simply telling people they are wrong, or telling people how it is, never works. We're human beings, we all have to understand why, or how we are wrong. At the same time, if they don't agree they will "attack" my ideas and possibly lead me to their conclusion. It's a constructive way to converse with people of differing opinions. Sadly, it gets misinterpreted as a personal attack many times and people become defensive and it all goes to ***.

Mablung

Lalai wrote: »

It also depends on what you consider an attack. I've seen you throw around the term fanboy and white knight to discredit an opinion that is contradictory to your own. I've seen that with a lot of posters actually.. the moment they post something positive, regardless of how many criticisms they've given something in the past, they'll get a response along the lines of "you're just a fanboy". Or when a poll doesn't go the way a poster wants, they'll make a comment about the fanbois being out in force, when really, it's just that people have differing opinions.

You are absolutely correct. I have used labels. I have never justified them nor am I justifying my use of them. It is wrong. I allow myself to become emotional at times when I see the same filth spewing from certain posters and it is very hard for me to refrain from commenting. I am not looking for it to be excused. I am going to help forge a better community though by creating dialogue such as this so that we can attempt to salvage a part of the game we have control over.