~+~ WOAH, Just Hold On A Second! ~+~

Emperor

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/114325/patch-v1-2-3-known-issues

The above admin thread states the following amongst other things Zenimax is working on.

Fiery Grip:
Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
•STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix

"Testing a fix"??? For what? The whole point of chains is to be able to pull people/monsters out of their safe spot to kill them. If you nerf it then the skill become completely pointless.

There are counter measures people can take to avoid being chain pulled from a keep wall. You can hold block, use reflective scales (if you are a DK), stand on a higher wall (even the extended chains morph only reaches 22 meters and they can't reach the higher walls), etc.

Please leave chains alone or give me a constructive argument to why and how they should be "fixed".

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

EDIT (6/30/14):
They changed the patch note to say they are preventing people from pulling players through walls instead of off walls. I am perfectly fine with this.

ExiledKhallisi

Pretty sure they are just going to make it so you can't do it in certain areas....... like in the off wall areas where "spies" for lack of a better word are exploiting people from opposing teams in to their strongholds where they aren't supposed to be

Sihnfahl

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

like in the off wall areas where "spies" for lack of a better word are exploiting people from opposing teams in to their strongholds where they aren't supposed to be

Except, instead of the patch note being:

"Fiery Grip is being used to provide access to locations opposing factions should not have access to."

It's a comment that it's being used to pull people off of walls. Or onto a wall.

And instead of banning the exploiters, they're changing chains. That's wrong, IMHO.

Makkir

Do players take fall damage when you pull them off a Keep Wall with fiery grip?

Emperor

Sihnfahl wrote: »

ExiledKhallisi wrote: »

like in the off wall areas where "spies" for lack of a better word are exploiting people from opposing teams in to their strongholds where they aren't supposed to be

Except, instead of the patch note being:

"Fiery Grip is being used to provide access to locations opposing factions should not have access to."

It's a comment that it's being used to pull people off of walls. Or onto a wall.

And instead of banning the exploiters, they're changing chains. That's wrong, IMHO.

^ This.

I hate to say it, but judging from past nerfs and "fixes" Zenimax is probably just going to nerf chains all around the board. It would make a lot of sense to just make chains unusable for the stronghold walls, but who knows if they can actually pull that off.

kitsinni

They have it in for DK's plain and simple.

Emperor

Makkir wrote: »

Do players take fall damage when you pull them off a Keep Wall with fiery grip?

No. You can't pull them off of something that is high enough to cause fall damage. Even if you could I don't think it would cause any damage because chains basically just teleport the person from where they were to in front of the chain user.

Sihnfahl

Emperor wrote: »

It would make a lot of sense to just make chains unusable for the stronghold walls, but who knows if they can actually pull that off.

Not really. There are legitimate reasons why you'd chain someone when they're already ON the wall - read, 0 change in the Z axis. Pulling a healer from a group, isolating a vulnerable player.

It's the applications that involve Z axis changes that are being exploited.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Emperor wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/114325/patch-v1-2-3-known-issues

The above admin thread states the following amongst other things Zenimax is working on.

Fiery Grip:
Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
•STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix

"Testing a fix"??? For what? The whole point of chains is to be able to pull people/monsters out of their safe spot to kill them. If you nerf it then the skill become completely pointless.

There are counter measures people can take to avoid being chain pulled from a keep wall. You can hold block, use reflective scales (if you are a DK), stand on a higher wall (even the extended chains morph only reaches 22 meters and they can't reach the higher walls), etc.

Please leave chains alone or give me a constructive argument to why and how they should be "fixed".

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

I agree, but the pvpers are crying so ZOS is nerfing DKs again. I laugh when they said they werent nerfing DKs to oblivion.

Booba

The first thing I thought when saw someone on a wall was that I want to pull him down with my chains. That is super epic!

If they 'fix' it that would be so childish. Makes me feel that it comes from whiners who can't predict a pull from someone jumping under the wall. It is war! You are not safe on a keep wall!

The exploits like pulling enemies to safezone should be treated, though

Singular

Emperor wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/114325/patch-v1-2-3-known-issues

The above admin thread states the following amongst other things Zenimax is working on.

Fiery Grip:
Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
•STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix

"Testing a fix"??? For what? The whole point of chains is to be able to pull people/monsters out of their safe spot to kill them. If you nerf it then the skill become completely pointless.

There are counter measures people can take to avoid being chain pulled from a keep wall. You can hold block, use reflective scales (if you are a DK), stand on a higher wall (even the extended chains morph only reaches 22 meters and they can't reach the higher walls), etc.

Please leave chains alone or give me a constructive argument to why and how they should be "fixed".

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

I posted the same thread in the PVP area.

Yes, it should absolutely be able to both pull people up and down. Sometimes you want to pull them up to kill them, sometimes you want to pull them down to kill them. Both are fantastic uses of the ability.

Unfortunately, some people decided to trade Emperor titles by swapping castles this way and people convinced Zenmax to change it.

I can't agree with the change. The answer to people 'cheating' that way is to make less campaigns so that no alliance ever has the population to do so. or make it impossible to pull people up (the thing is, it won't matter, people will still try to work together to swap Emperor titles).

The real problem is Emperor titles. They last even if you lose Emperor ship. Yes, it's totally awesome that you were once an Emperor - and I'm absolutely all for keeping them. But, you're not going to see this kind of cross-alliance buddy system working of Emperor titles weren't permanent. Sadly, the only way to stop people from finding ways to work together to share the title - and that truly is beautiful of people, to find social solutions to achieve desired goals - is to not allow Emperor passives/actives to be permanent after you've lost your title.

I wish they could be, but people have exploited and screwed it up. They will continue to do so, because they are people. Permanent Emperor abilities just have to go.

Sihnfahl

Emperor wrote: »

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

Because that would also affect other skills as well.

Extended Chains has 22 meter range; 27 near a keep with Assault Line Reach.

Most long range skills for casters and bow users are about 28 meters.

1 meter difference is nothing...

Emperor

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

Because that would also affect other skills as well.

Extended Chains has 22 meter range; 27 near a keep with Assault Line Reach.

Most long range skills for casters and bow users are about 28 meters.

1 meter difference is nothing...

IMO this isn't a problem. People shouldn't be killing players at there spawn location anyway even if they are visible while standing on top of the wall. I would much rather not be able to attack players at their spawn location then have chains nerfed to another pointless skill.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Im waiting for this last nerf to fiery grip, when they do it Im clicking unsub.

ayriennub17_ESO

The first time I was pulled into a zerg by chains while I was standing on the wall I was like " oh ***, I'm a dead man...". Then laughed about it and appreciated the clever tactic and learned to watch what is around the wall that I'm on... nerfing chains cause people can't figure out how to block/dodge them and still stand right on the edge of the wall is just plain silly. If a person can't figure out not to stand next to the edge when a DK is there, they deserve to be pulled into a zerg and stomped into little pieces.
Like I said it only takes once to learn from a mistake, and IMO its a good use of chains, no reason to break it. This coming from a NB, so its not gonna hurt me any, but I hate to see them take a working tactic used in taking a keep and screw it up.

EDIT: Spelling, gotta love autocorrect that doesn't work properly on a smartphone...

Singular

ayriennub17_ESO wrote: »

The first time I was pulled into a zerg by chains while I was standing on the wall I was like " oh ***, I'm a dead man...". Then laughed about it and appreciated the clever tactic and learned to watch what is around the wall that I'm on... nerfing chains cause people can't figure out how to block/dodge them and still stand right on the edge of the wall is just plain silly. If a person can't figure out not to stand next to the edge when a DK is there, they deserve to be pulled into a zerg and stomped into little pieces.
Like I said it only takes once to learn from a mistake, and IMO its a good use of chains, no reason to break it. This coming from a NB, so its not gonna hurt me any, but I hate to see them take a working tactic used in taking a keep and screw it up.

EDIT: Spelling, gotta love autocorrect that doesn't work properly on a smartphone...

Totally! It was great - I was like "wow, if I was a DK, that's what I would do."

Zenmax is destroying a potential tactic here. This is not good. We don't want "run with the ground" only tactics.

Emperor

In my opinion there needs to be more tactics in this game like chain pulling instead of less!

Wifeaggro13

Emperor wrote: »

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/114325/patch-v1-2-3-known-issues

The above admin thread states the following amongst other things Zenimax is working on.

Fiery Grip:
Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.
•STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix

"Testing a fix"??? For what? The whole point of chains is to be able to pull people/monsters out of their safe spot to kill them. If you nerf it then the skill become completely pointless.

There are counter measures people can take to avoid being chain pulled from a keep wall. You can hold block, use reflective scales (if you are a DK), stand on a higher wall (even the extended chains morph only reaches 22 meters and they can't reach the higher walls), etc.

Please leave chains alone or give me a constructive argument to why and how they should be "fixed".

EDIT (6/27/14):
If this is about people pulling others in the strongholds of other alliances then why not just make the wall higher so chains can't reach? That would be a fix that no one would be mad about.

And this is why this damn game is doomed the Developers are trying to balance the game around PVP.

Sihnfahl

Emperor wrote: »

People shouldn't be killing players at there spawn location anyway even if they are visible while standing on top of the wall. I would much rather not be able to attack players at their spawn location then have chains nerfed to another pointless skill.

Think of the other direction, though.

By making a wall higher so people can't pull up, you're also making it so defenders can't shoot down. Out of range.

Emperor

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

People shouldn't be killing players at there spawn location anyway even if they are visible while standing on top of the wall. I would much rather not be able to attack players at their spawn location then have chains nerfed to another pointless skill.

Think of the other direction, though.

By making a wall higher so people can't pull up, you're also making it so defenders can't shoot down. Out of range.

It's their spawn location... Why would they be defending it? It can't be taken over like a keep.

Lucifer66

Why don't they just change the spawn location a little instead of nerfing the DK's skill? Too quick on the Nerf Bat if you ask me. The DK has only a few ranged attacks anyways, they really need one that draws an enemy to them so they can hack them up so I say leave it alone.

Sihnfahl

Emperor wrote: »

It's their spawn location... Why would they be defending it? It can't be taken over like a keep.

The other part of the exploit is that people are using it to bypass keep walls, not just get into the starter locations.

Keep swapping and scroll exploits exist because people can pull opposing teams into a keep, bypassing the walls and doors...

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

It's their spawn location... Why would they be defending it? It can't be taken over like a keep.

The other part of the exploit is that people are using it to bypass keep walls, not just get into the starter locations.

Keep swapping and scroll exploits exist because people can pull opposing teams into a keep, bypassing the walls and doors...

You know how to solve that? Let campaign choice be account bound, you get one faction period.

Emperor

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

It's their spawn location... Why would they be defending it? It can't be taken over like a keep.

The other part of the exploit is that people are using it to bypass keep walls, not just get into the starter locations.

Keep swapping and scroll exploits exist because people can pull opposing teams into a keep, bypassing the walls and doors...

That isn't really a huge problem though... I doubt it happens very often because there are plenty of other people, that are not exploiting, to ruin their plan. If it is happening then it will most likely not be an issue anymore once there are fewer campaigns.

Emperor

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Sihnfahl wrote: »

Emperor wrote: »

It's their spawn location... Why would they be defending it? It can't be taken over like a keep.

The other part of the exploit is that people are using it to bypass keep walls, not just get into the starter locations.

Keep swapping and scroll exploits exist because people can pull opposing teams into a keep, bypassing the walls and doors...

You know how to solve that? Let campaign choice be account bound, you get one faction period.

I'm pretty sure your account is bound to one alliance per campaign. I can't make 2 characters that are in DC and EP in Wabbajack.

yodased

yes you can't do that on the same account. Whatever PvP alliance you choose, thats it for the account.

This is not to say you couldn't get TWO accounts, but then you are paying Zenimax, so its all good.

Emperor

yodased wrote: »

yes you can't do that on the same account. Whatever PvP alliance you choose, thats it for the account.

This is not to say you couldn't get TWO accounts, but then you are paying Zenimax, so its all good.

If people are really paying another sub fee just to be in both alliances... that is kind of sad, but I'm not surprised by it.

Either way, there isn't really a way to prevent that if they are paying for 2 subs unless they went by internet IP or credit card number, but people can even change those so..... it seems far fetched

Sihnfahl

Emperor wrote: »

If people are really paying another sub fee just to be in both alliances... that is kind of sad, but I'm not surprised by it...

You really shouldn't. One of the most infamous folks in open-world WoW PvP was a multiboxer - FIVE warlock toons working in tandem.

Five accounts, one person. Just so he could pwn folks on his own.

Maulkin

For me the solution is simple, allow pull-downs but not pull-ups above a certain angle (like 45 degrees). I never see the point of pulling someone up as they roll down straight away anyway. It's also what's being exploited.

Pull downs are great because they allow you to isolate and kill players that are kiting you from the walls. Simple protection for them is animation cancelling attacks with block or immovable, so it's not OP in a any shape or form as there are counters.

Finally, the fact they are investigating it as a "bug" is a bare-faced lie on their part. It has been like that since pre-launch PTS and it's been in tons of videos showcasing cool DK abilities. It certainly is no bug. They should find a way to stop the exploit without making an ability totally useless.

Sihnfahl

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

For me the solution is simple, allow pull-downs but not pull-ups above a certain angle (like 45 degrees).

Reflects.

hk11

My DK is unplayed for a while now. I'm going to wait until a) the nerfs are over and b) the mathletes figure out the best build before picking him up again.