MMO's explained

Hilgara

There seems to be a significant number of people where who are unaware of how MMO’s work so lets take a look
Addons

If you are one of those refusing to use addons because “its not what was intended by the devs”

Addons are in almost every MMO and the code (API) needs to be released to the community for most if not all of them to work and therefore need to be sanctioned by the developers. Allowing other talented people to make these addons saves resources for the developers. They will sometimes retain control of what is available by “signing” (official approval) of the best addons. This is not cheating. If the developers had unlimited resources they would add this little features themselves but they don’t. So it makes financial sense to allow others to do it for free. (plus the boffins seem to enjoy it)

Combat.

Right, lets get this the right way round. There seems to be a few who believe that regardless of what armour they wear, what weapons they use and what abilities they slot that it’s the developers job to supply a mob that will die as a result of their efforts. That isn’t how it works. The developer supplies the mob and you figure out how to kill it. That is how it is supposed to work. There may be a few MMO’s that do it the other way round *cough WOW cough* but is quickly becoming a thing of the past. If every mob died to the same attack then that would be the definition of boring. If what you are doing doesn’t work then try something else. The only responsibility the developers have in this regard it to give you the choice of abilities. There should never be a mob that cannot be killed by each class for solo content but there may be a mob that cannot be killed by the same attack or using the same armour or weapons. As long as the developers give you the option of equipping the right combination of armour, weapons, skills they have done their bit. Its now your job to find them.

Difficulty.

In any group of players there will always be a normal distribution of abilities. A small % of players extremely skilled and a small % of players not skilled at all, with the vast majority being somewhere In the middle. The developers can only really target for those in the middle and by doing so they will have a significant percentage of people who are not happy. Especially those who are not used to the MMO machanics. You can’t press F5 to quick save so you can have another go. There is no difficulty slider to customise to your level of ability. This includes the ability to have nightmare/hardcore mode that the extremely skilled players would probably be using if they could. The difference is that the people for whom the game is too easy are stumped. Appart form having hardcore mode dungeons the normal day to day activity (questing, gathering etc) will always be unrewarding.
On the other hand those for whom the difficulty is too much of a challenge still have hope. Some at least will learn and evolve better skill. Like learning any new sport or skill you get better over time through repetition. So as a result it makes sense for the developers to err slightly on the side of “difficult” rather than “easy” because people can adapt to difficult but cant adapt to easy.

Forums

There will always be a difference of opinion on gaming forums and this often results in a toxic environments (EVE online anyone) The only way to prevent this is to look at every opinion that you are opposed to as an intellectual challenge that requires reasoned, logical, fact based response rather than flaming and trolling. Attack the basis of the argument not the person. You don’t always agree with your mum but you don’t resort to insulting her either.

Madval

Thanks Captain ! For the insight !

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

As long as the developers give you the option of equipping the right combination of armour, weapons, skills they have done their bit. Its now your job to find them.

Ignoring the patronising tone of you post ...

if the developers don't also provide you a USEFUL means of equipping gear and skills when you need them then your point is moot .. and I'd also point out that the game makes no provision for in-combat ARMOUR swapping at all, at least you can switch weapons with a single button press.

Hilgara

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

As long as the developers give you the option of equipping the right combination of armour, weapons, skills they have done their bit. Its now your job to find them.

But if the developers don't also provide you a USEFUL means of equipping gear and skills when you need them then your point is moot .. and I'd also point out that the game makes no provision for in-combat ARMOUR swapping, at least you can switch weapons with a single button press.

See addons

Outfitter allows you to quickly swap bars AND armour AND weapons easily.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Ignoring the patronising tone of you post ...

See Forums

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Why would I want to base my entire playing method on a package not supported by the developer that can and likely will break in the future (many add-ons break in WOW, LOTRO etc. when an expansion comes out) and then find the add-on is orphaned because the the author got bored and dropped it?

Tell me, why I should risk that? I learned a long time ago when an add-on I relied on in WOW ceased to exist that using anything other than what the developers release and support is stupid.

We're not talking about fluff stuff here, like being able to move a UI element about, we're talking about CORE game-play mechanics like skill and gear selection, relying on someone else to continue to be interested in a tool you rely on and they may drop on a whim is, in my estimation, crass.

Hilgara

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Why would I want to base my entire playing method on a package not supported by the developer that can and likely will break in the future (many add-ons break in WOW, LOTRO etc. when an expansion comes out) and then find the add-on is orphaned because the the author got bored and dropped it?

Tell me, why I should risk that? I learned a long time ago when an add-on I relied on in WOW ceased to exist that using anything other than what the developers release and support is stupid.

We're not talking about fluff stuff here, like being able to move a UI element about, we're talking about CORE game-play mechanics like skill and gear selection, relying on someone else to continue to be interested in a tool you rely on and they may drop on a whim is, in my estimation, crass.

This is the addons pack I was referring to
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/14/featured-add-on--wykkyds-framework?ref=news-list

As you can see it is advertised on this very site by the developers.

If you refuse to use the abilities and recourses supplied to you by the developers then stop complaining. They are not limiting your ability to play you are!

Animus0724

Great article although massive walls of text tend to be an eyesore.

Sindala

Nope. not buying it.
Never used an add-on and never will.
If it's not wrote by the dev's then you have no defence if your account is 'hacked', they aren't hacking your game on the client side (thus devs don't care)...they hide in your computer and watch.
There are some VERY clever people out there that can hide trojans and worms ect in anything. They are probably about 30 years ahead of the code writers of games.
You use add-ons then you basically give them permission to access your game, computer, files ect. No thanks.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Why would I want to base my entire playing method on a package not supported by the developer that can and likely will break in the future (many add-ons break in WOW, LOTRO etc. when an expansion comes out) and then find the add-on is orphaned because the the author got bored and dropped it?

Tell me, why I should risk that? I learned a long time ago when an add-on I relied on in WOW ceased to exist that using anything other than what the developers release and support is stupid.

We're not talking about fluff stuff here, like being able to move a UI element about, we're talking about CORE game-play mechanics like skill and gear selection, relying on someone else to continue to be interested in a tool you rely on and they may drop on a whim is, in my estimation, crass.

This is the addons pack I was referring to
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/14/featured-add-on--wykkyds-framework?ref=news-list

As you can see it is advertised on this very site by the developers.!

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?

Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Pele

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Why would I want to base my entire playing method on a package not supported by the developer that can and likely will break in the future (many add-ons break in WOW, LOTRO etc. when an expansion comes out) and then find the add-on is orphaned because the the author got bored and dropped it?

Tell me, why I should risk that? I learned a long time ago when an add-on I relied on in WOW ceased to exist that using anything other than what the developers release and support is stupid.

We're not talking about fluff stuff here, like being able to move a UI element about, we're talking about CORE game-play mechanics like skill and gear selection, relying on someone else to continue to be interested in a tool you rely on and they may drop on a whim is, in my estimation, crass.

This is the addons pack I was referring to
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/14/featured-add-on--wykkyds-framework?ref=news-list

As you can see it is advertised on this very site by the developers.!

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?

Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Indeed. Add-ons are great for fluff and non-essential game play, but it is unwise to rely on them to fill functions that should be standard as they are made by unpaid players who can stop development and support at any moment, stranding those who relied on them.

stefan.gustavsonb16_ESO

They are probably about 30 years ahead of the code writers of games.

From what I have learned about the gaming industry (and yes, I do have considerable insight), any other field of software development is way ahead of game programming. They need to learn and apply some modern software development methods and stop hacking away as if it were 1990. This is not unique to ZOS or Bethesda, it's a general problem with the industry.

(Sorry for the soapbox, but this really bothers me.)

Hilgara

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Many of the best addons that sprung from WoW were eventually absorbed and included by Blizzard. Anyone remember Grid or heal Bot? Addons are a great way to let the dev know what the community would like in game. The most popular addons will eventually become standard features but in the mean time you carry on QQ'ing about the poor UI. I'll keep enjoying the game and filling in its shortfalls with addons.

Pele

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

The most popular addons will eventually become standard features ....

Is that confirmed? If so, link please as I'd like to read it for myself.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Many of the best addons that sprung from WoW were eventually absorbed and included by Blizzard. Anyone remember Grid or heal Bot? Addons are a great way to let the dev know what the community would like in game. The most popular addons will eventually become standard features but in the mean time you carry on QQ'ing about the poor UI. I'll keep enjoying the game and filling in its shortfalls with addons.

Both those named add-ons hardly provided core features the game was sorely lacking.

The discussion here stems from a post I made in another thread where you were asserting that the game provided a very flexible set of skills that allow one to tweak one's setup for every fight, and I pointed out that the game as published did nothing of the kind and you are only able to play the way you do because of third-party add-ons .. that did not apply in any way, shape or form to Heal Bot which provided nothing you couldn't do in the vanilla UI, it only made things easier, the case of armour and skill swapping and lack of UI support for it in ESO is utterly unrelated.

Oh, while reminiscing about WOW add-ons, remember the bot known as Decursive? Even Blizzard thought that was over-the-top and broke it, many players could no longer play healers because they had never learned how to, their add-on crutch did it for them.

Hilgara

Pele wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

The most popular addons will eventually become standard features ....

Is that confirmed? If so, link please as I'd like to read it for myself.

Call it a hunch. its pretty standard practice. If the game survives long enough it will get round to improving the UI and the most logical place to start would be to look at the commonly used addons. The seem to have a vision about keeping the UI as clean as possible but addons like outfitter don't change the game screen UI just the inventory and character UI.

I can't think of any MMO experience I ever had that wasn't improved by addons.
Sure I could have stubbornly refused to use them and yes now and again they caused the odd glitch following patches but they have enhanced my game play in lots of games. The pluses by far outweigh the minus's

alphawolph

Pele wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

The most popular addons will eventually become standard features ....

Is that confirmed? If so, link please as I'd like to read it for myself.

This has happened in every mmo I've played. Wow does it all the time though.

Decimus_Rex

Madval wrote: »

Thanks Captain ! For the insight !

OBVIOUSLY !!!

KhajitFurTrader

Hilgara wrote: »

There seems to be a significant number of people where who are unaware of how MMO’s work so lets take a look
Addons

If you are one of those refusing to use addons because “its not what was intended by the devs”

Addons are in almost every MMO and the code (API) needs to be released to the community for most if not all of them to work and therefore need to be sanctioned by the developers. Allowing other talented people to make these addons saves resources for the developers. They will sometimes retain control of what is available by “signing” (official approval) of the best addons. This is not cheating. If the developers had unlimited resources they would add this little features themselves but they don’t. So it makes financial sense to allow others to do it for free. (plus the boffins seem to enjoy it)

So your point is what? People are refusing to use add-ons for a plethora of reasons, especially in ESO. Are you trying to insinuate that not using add-ons is a bad thing? I'm not using any add-ons, not because I'm thinking they weren't intended by the devs (the API wouldn't exist at all if that were their intention), but because I don't want to. It is my positive choice to do so, and I object the notion that I'm refusing to do something.

I don't agree that having an API saves work. While it may have become to be expected by players over the years (did M9, UO, or Everquest have a LUA-API, before WoW came along?), developing, debugging, and maintaining an API in the first place is a lot of (ongoing) work. I agree with the notion that developers may take a close look at things that become popular, but not to "sign" them (haven't heard of that practice happening anywhere), but to implement them directly into their UI. So your "talented people" are unpaid idea providers in the best case.

Hilgara wrote: »

Combat.

Right, lets get this the right way round. There seems to be a few who believe that regardless of what armour they wear, what weapons they use and what abilities they slot that it’s the developers job to supply a mob that will die as a result of their efforts. That isn’t how it works. The developer supplies the mob and you figure out how to kill it. That is how it is supposed to work. There may be a few MMO’s that do it the other way round *cough WOW cough* but is quickly becoming a thing of the past. If every mob died to the same attack then that would be the definition of boring. If what you are doing doesn’t work then try something else. The only responsibility the developers have in this regard it to give you the choice of abilities. There should never be a mob that cannot be killed by each class for solo content but there may be a mob that cannot be killed by the same attack or using the same armour or weapons. As long as the developers give you the option of equipping the right combination of armour, weapons, skills they have done their bit. Its now your job to find them.

It clearly said "Play the way you want" in the ads, not "Find out which one of the many ways we provide works effectively, or at all". While the latter isn't nearly as catchy as the former, if the marketing droids had gone with the latter, maybe there would not be so many disappointed people posting here in the first place?

Hilgara

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

It clearly said "Play the way you want" in the ads, not "Find out which one of the many ways we provide works effectively, or at all". While the latter isn't nearly as catchy as the former, if the marketing droids had gone with the latter, maybe there would not be so many disappointed people posting here in the first place?

You can play the way you want but what kind of game would it be if every combination of class, weapon, abilities, armour....all gave the same result?

play the way to want? sure. But if you pick a poor combination of the above then don't expect to be able to perform the way you want.

You are given the option to play the way you want but that also gives you the option to chose a very poor combination.

People keep misinterpreting this quote. It actually means.... You have the choice to choose any combination. We wont stop you. That is the only promise being made. If you then make a poor choice that's your fault.

KhajitFurTrader

Hilgara wrote: »

KhajitFurTrader wrote: »

It clearly said "Play the way you want" in the ads, not "Find out which one of the many ways we provide works effectively, or at all". While the latter isn't nearly as catchy as the former, if the marketing droids had gone with the latter, maybe there would not be so many disappointed people posting here in the first place?

You can play the way you want but what kind of game would it be if every combination of class, weapon, abilities, armour....all gave the same result?

It would've been the kind of game I expected to buy when I saw the ads. Plus, having played the TES games, I also would have expected every armor/weapon combo of my choosing to work; not equally, but equitably.

Hilgara wrote: »

play the way to want? sure. But if you pick a poor combination of the above then don't expect to be able to perform the way you want.

You are given the option to play the way you want but that also gives you the option to chose a very poor combination.

People keep misinterpreting this quote. It actually means.... You have the choice to choose any combination. We wont stop you. That is the only promise being made. If you then make a poor choice that's your fault.

Then why are there "poor combinations" to choose from in the game at all?

Swampster

The are some combinations that are a poor choice that simply shouldn't be... for example pretty much any weapons based stamina build. A bow carrying duel wielding player should be a perfectly viable and effective choice! However we all know that's a sure fire way to gimp yourself..

zgrssd

Hilgara wrote: »

There seems to be a significant number of people where who are unaware of how MMO’s work so lets take a look
Addons

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Sindala wrote: »

Nope. not buying it.
Never used an add-on and never will.

Welcome to the world of adulthood where your choices lead to you suffering the conequences. Choosing not to use Addons on principle is like choosing not to use Heavy Attacks on Principle.
Your choice to make, but don't go blaming others for the consequences (not a good game experience).

I fully agreee with Hilgara's explanation of why there are Addons and said similar stuff myself.

Hilgara wrote: »

Combat.
[...]
Difficulty.

There is currently a misbalance in the game.
Some classes are more powerful then others and overall stamian skills are not competitive to mana skills (late game and PvP). Yet.

This was to be expected from a new MMO and they are currently balancing the Class skills.
Once that is done PvE and Stam/Mana balance will be the goals.
I cannot believe anybody able to form full sentences while posting here was inable to expect that.

Hilgara wrote: »

Forums

There will always be a difference of opinion on gaming forums and this often results in a toxic environments (EVE online anyone) The only way to prevent this is to look at every opinion that you are opposed to as an intellectual challenge that requires reasoned, logical, fact based response rather than flaming and trolling. Attack the basis of the argument not the person. You don’t always agree with your mum but you don’t resort to insulting her either.

I see it as a point of personal pride to not fall into thsoe traps anymore. Everytime I detect and overcome them I am becomming a better person. Everytime I see atempts to distract from the core I learn how to hit. I am a programmer - I always aim for maximum effect with least effort.

Adramelach

Addons

Addons are great, I use dozens of them. It would be (and has been) extremely annoying to play the game without many, many of them, for me.

Combat.

This only makes sense if there is sufficient flexibility in terms of possible combinations that can do the job. If the developers create mobs and bosses, and even entire zones, that can be effectively managed only using Light Armor/Destro/Resto combinations, and all else fails, and our job as players is simpliy to 'discover' that, and realize there's only one build and play style that actually works... well, I don't know what to say, really, except that kind of sucks in my mind.

Difficulty.

This is far too simplistic, as it presumes there's only one "difficulty level" possible in the entire game. The solution to all this is:
1. Generally make "lore" and "story-based" main PvE elements bias towards the easy side, so that the most players can get through it, and the hardcore players can skate it quickly, even if in a "bored" fashion. This allows RP/story focused players that don't relish combat difficulty, or aren't that good, to enjoy the main elements of the plot and get through the story of the game.
2. Increase the difficulty of "side content" on a scale, that allows some easier dungeons for "everyone" all the way up to "insane" instances of nightmarish cruelty that require l33t young players, twitching with energy drinks, to e-sport their way through in some blurred frenzy of perfect execution that's barely discernible to "less gifted" player's eye, and which the rest of us can avoid without penalty, and without being excluded from important lore or story elements.

The problem we have, is that while 1-50 generally follows that model, Veteran content, as far as I can see, wrongly places just about all the content into a category more like #2, than like #1, and is not good for the general audience, in my view, as many come from TES backgrounds where lightning fast reflexes and combat prowess were not the centerpiece to the entire game, and story counted.

Sighlynce

Pele wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

See addons

No thanks.

Why would I want to base my entire playing method on a package not supported by the developer that can and likely will break in the future (many add-ons break in WOW, LOTRO etc. when an expansion comes out) and then find the add-on is orphaned because the the author got bored and dropped it?

Tell me, why I should risk that? I learned a long time ago when an add-on I relied on in WOW ceased to exist that using anything other than what the developers release and support is stupid.

We're not talking about fluff stuff here, like being able to move a UI element about, we're talking about CORE game-play mechanics like skill and gear selection, relying on someone else to continue to be interested in a tool you rely on and they may drop on a whim is, in my estimation, crass.

This is the addons pack I was referring to
http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/14/featured-add-on--wykkyds-framework?ref=news-list

As you can see it is advertised on this very site by the developers.!

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?

Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Indeed. Add-ons are great for fluff and non-essential game play, but it is unwise to rely on them to fill functions that should be standard as they are made by unpaid players who can stop development and support at any moment, stranding those who relied on them.

Agreed. I use addons and like the ones I have but lets be honest about them. The particular one the OP is referring to http://elderscrollsonline.com/en/news/post/2014/05/14/featured-add-on--wykkyds-framework?ref=news-list ,has yet to be updated. Wykkyd hasn't updated any of his addons since April and we have had amajor update since then... Two of the four I use updated . Addons are fun and do help out (LOVE Garkin's skyshard map ) but you can't and shouldn't count on them in the long run.

drogon1

Hilgara wrote: »

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

And when those add-ons are abandoned by their developers ZOS will step in and pick them up and keep them running?


Of course they won't.

Q.E.D.

Many of the best addons that sprung from WoW were eventually absorbed and included by Blizzard. Anyone remember Grid or heal Bot? Addons are a great way to let the dev know what the community would like in game. The most popular addons will eventually become standard features but in the mean time you carry on QQ'ing about the poor UI. I'll keep enjoying the game and filling in its shortfalls with addons.

^. I'm not an addon fan. They are a nuisance to maintain, but for a few the benefit to gameplay outweighs the negatives. Having said that I never realized the security concerns mentioned above.

GreySix

I like my add-ons with a sprinkling of ESO.

Tyr

Hilgara wrote: »

There seems to be a significant number of people where who are unaware of how MMO’s work so lets take a look
Addons

If you are one of those refusing to use addons because “its not what was intended by the devs”

Addons are in almost every MMO and the code (API) needs to be released to the community for most if not all of them to work and therefore need to be sanctioned by the developers. Allowing other talented people to make these addons saves resources for the developers. They will sometimes retain control of what is available by “signing” (official approval) of the best addons. This is not cheating. If the developers had unlimited resources they would add this little features themselves but they don’t. So it makes financial sense to allow others to do it for free. (plus the boffins seem to enjoy it)

Combat.

Right, lets get this the right way round. There seems to be a few who believe that regardless of what armour they wear, what weapons they use and what abilities they slot that it’s the developers job to supply a mob that will die as a result of their efforts. That isn’t how it works. The developer supplies the mob and you figure out how to kill it. That is how it is supposed to work. There may be a few MMO’s that do it the other way round *cough WOW cough* but is quickly becoming a thing of the past. If every mob died to the same attack then that would be the definition of boring. If what you are doing doesn’t work then try something else. The only responsibility the developers have in this regard it to give you the choice of abilities. There should never be a mob that cannot be killed by each class for solo content but there may be a mob that cannot be killed by the same attack or using the same armour or weapons. As long as the developers give you the option of equipping the right combination of armour, weapons, skills they have done their bit. Its now your job to find them.

Difficulty.

In any group of players there will always be a normal distribution of abilities. A small % of players extremely skilled and a small % of players not skilled at all, with the vast majority being somewhere In the middle. The developers can only really target for those in the middle and by doing so they will have a significant percentage of people who are not happy. Especially those who are not used to the MMO machanics. You can’t press F5 to quick save so you can have another go. There is no difficulty slider to customise to your level of ability. This includes the ability to have nightmare/hardcore mode that the extremely skilled players would probably be using if they could. The difference is that the people for whom the game is too easy are stumped. Appart form having hardcore mode dungeons the normal day to day activity (questing, gathering etc) will always be unrewarding.
On the other hand those for whom the difficulty is too much of a challenge still have hope. Some at least will learn and evolve better skill. Like learning any new sport or skill you get better over time through repetition. So as a result it makes sense for the developers to err slightly on the side of “difficult” rather than “easy” because people can adapt to difficult but cant adapt to easy.

Forums

There will always be a difference of opinion on gaming forums and this often results in a toxic environments (EVE online anyone) The only way to prevent this is to look at every opinion that you are opposed to as an intellectual challenge that requires reasoned, logical, fact based response rather than flaming and trolling. Attack the basis of the argument not the person. You don’t always agree with your mum but you don’t resort to insulting her either.

This is all great except for the combat argument.
If I want to play a Nord that uses no magic abilities at all it is 100% the responsibility of the Devs to deliver a difficulty curve that allows me to overcome any solo content only using abilities from those 7 skill lines IF I'm skilled enough.
Why? Because this is an TES game and being forced to play a mage of some kind instead of a warrior/companion style Nord is abandoning the ethos of "play how you want".

daneyulebub17_ESO

The developer is responsible for providing the basics--add-ons are to extend the basics. They should not be relied on by the freaking developer to provide features that should already be in any properly thought out MMO. Its like Zeni and it's apologists are relying on 3rd party, work-for-free amateurs to provide core components of the game we're all paying for. Very sketchy, very lame.

hk11

MMOs should strive to move forward by taking the best features of previous titles in the genre and presenting them in an improved way when possible.

MMO players generally want to level a character and see it progress, get loot, and spend time with other people in a meaningful way such as guild raids. It's also important that the risks yield the appropriate awards for those that spend the time and effort to excel.

I don't feel that leaving out "standard" features is a good model at all. That doesn't mean you can't have a fanbase, but it does mean that the game will languish in mediocrity.

steveb16_ESO46

hk11 wrote: »

MMO players generally want to level a character and see it progress, get loot, and spend time with other people in a meaningful way such as guild raids.

Man, did you take a wrong turn then.

Fuzzylumpkins

steveb16_ESO46 wrote: »

hk11 wrote: »

MMO players generally want to level a character and see it progress, get loot, and spend time with other people in a meaningful way such as guild raids.

Man, did you take a wrong turn then.

He was describing wow lol- and that is anything but what players want as entertainment. If he likes playing games that milk players for every penny they have then he is on the right path.

I would prefer a game with no levelling that was crafter based , had content and raids that were always relevant, even just as stepping stones (so all the zones weren't just wasted memory) with balanced RTS style RvR that wasn't cap the flag. You know like Dark Age of Camelot without the levelling. In their defense they did make their levelling work as 14 years later it is the exact same level cap it was on release