Thread sinking

Hilgara

ZoS, instead of sinking controversial threads why not join the discussion?
You are quite happy to comment on trivial matters but there are some huge threads on this forum that many people have contributed to and have raised many very valid points but we never get any input from the devs. While we don't expect you to have all the answers or fix all our issues we do expect you to help clarify your position. E.g

Is the discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds going to be addressed in a future patch?

Is the difficulty of some mobs intended (specifically some trash mobs having more health than boss's)

I was tempted to add a few more but since you seem to struggle with communication I'll leave it here. These two are the ones that keep bobbing to the top of the forums before you sink them so lets see how long this one floats.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Hilgara wrote: »

ZoS, instead of sinking controversial threads why not join the discussion?
You are quite happy to comment on trivial matters but there are some huge threads on this forum that many people have contributed to and have raised many very valid points but we never get any input from the devs. While we don't expect you to have all the answers or fix all our issues we do expect you to help clarify your position. E.g

Is the discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds going to be addressed in a future patch?

Is the difficulty of some mobs intended (specifically some trash mobs having more health than boss's)

I was tempted to add a few more but since you seem these two are the ones that keep bobbing to the top of the forums before you sink them so lets see how long this one floats.

Be careful, questioning their omniscient wisdom will get you a three day ban from playing.

Moiskormoimi

They tacked the payment issue thread then deliberately sunk that. They sink reviews, which are pretty monotonous and all seem to have the same complaints to them but still.

I think you've brought up a wonderful idea of them actually being engaging in the community. Maybe, just maybe, that might actually make the clients feel somewhat valued.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

I can understand wanting to discourage negative and toxic threads that detract from the whole community. But just burying them doesn't seem to be the wisest choice. Not all of it is bad stuff and when it contains the sincere input of some, it can easily be taken the wrong way. It may work well in the short term, kind of like a toxic waste dump, and then over time nobody wants anything to do with it.

OkieDokie

Agree. There is no better way of looking guilty than sinking a thread about favoritism of players. It would be way easier if they joined the discussion and explained the controversial points.

That was a bad call in my opinion.

Moiskormoimi

What I want to know is why they feel so threatened? A lot of those threads are childish in their own rights but they sink legitimate ones that don't violate the CoC as well.

If you're truly confident in your product, maybe let the community handle the issue, which also makes them stronger, as opposed to shady tactics that hinder the player base further. Claiming they read everything, including the negatives, and then deliberately sinking them berates the point and creates huge trust issues between company and client.

Ralathar44

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I think you've brought up a wonderful idea of them actually being engaging in the community. Maybe, just maybe, that might actually make the clients feel somewhat valued.

The problem is that this is highly subjective and basically boils down to "fix my specific issues" or "change the game to fit my specific ideals". People suggesting terrible ideas for example will feel like they are not being listened to and will make similar threads to this one "because they are being ignored".

For instance, of the current Werewolf threads a fair amount of them want it to be game breakingly OP. We all know werewolves are not competitive atm but are the devs supposed to respond to all of these threads or be accused of not listening?

That's not even touching the fact that when they do respond and disagree with someone the community will descend upon them like rabid pack animals if it's not the ideas they had in mind.

There is a reason most game developers speak to their communities sparingly, most of it is honestly our fault.

Ralathar44

Some of it is also to do with thread design. For example due to the way this thread is phrased and written this thread is destined to be little more than a whine fest.

If you want constructive results you must first start with constructive questions or statements. Not vague, not fueled by personal agenda, not complaints. Constructive questions or statements. The more that can be verified and the less "this is my opinion I R right blarga blarga blarga rant rant rant" the better.

A solid design is not built off of a weak foundation. Consider your questions and statements the foundations for future designs.

Teargrants

It's part of their new policy to add a treasure hunter mini game to the forum's layout. Go diving along the ocean floor for sunken threads, who knows what treasures you may discover?

Hilgara

Ralathar44 wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I think you've brought up a wonderful idea of them actually being engaging in the community. Maybe, just maybe, that might actually make the clients feel somewhat valued.

The problem is that this is highly subjective and basically boils down to "fix my specific issues" or "change the game to fit my specific ideals". People suggesting terrible ideas for example will feel like they are not being listened to and will make similar threads to this one "because they are being ignored".

For instance, of the current Werewolf threads a fair amount of them want it to be game breakingly OP. We all know werewolves are not competitive atm but are the devs supposed to respond to all of these threads or be accused of not listening?

That's not even touching the fact that when they do respond and disagree with someone the community will descend upon them like rabid pack animals if it's not the ideas they had in mind.

There is a reason most game developers speak to their communities sparingly, most of it is honestly our fault.

The WW thing has nothing to do with my post. I am talking generic problems that effect ALL players. And what makes it all the more annoying is that they DO respond to inconsequential crap, like facial expressions being different in character creation than in game. FFS if they have the time to post about rubbish like that then why cant they comment on a thread that had 50 pages and many thousands of views.

I have been gaming for over 30 years and I have never seen a more distant, unresponsive dev team than this.

Moiskormoimi

Ralathar44 wrote: »

amber_picchiottino_ESO wrote: »

I think you've brought up a wonderful idea of them actually being engaging in the community. Maybe, just maybe, that might actually make the clients feel somewhat valued.

The problem is that this is highly subjective and basically boils down to "fix my specific issues" or "change the game to fit my specific ideals". People suggesting terrible ideas for example will feel like they are not being listened to and will make similar threads to this one "because they are being ignored".

For instance, of the current Werewolf threads a fair amount of them want it to be game breakingly OP. We all know werewolves are not competitive atm but are the devs supposed to respond to all of these threads or be accused of not listening?

That's not even touching the fact that when they do respond and disagree with someone the community will descend upon them like rabid pack animals if it's not the ideas they had in mind.

There is a reason most game developers speak to their communities sparingly, most of it is honestly our fault.

I get what you're saying, and I agree, a lot of the issues are repetitive. Take a look in the the new PTS forums. That is why it never needed to be open to the public. There is one theme and one theme only to what people are crying about on that forum right now. That's not really what pts was for and a lot of people do not seem to understand any of that.

I'm not saying answer and engage in everything. On the Blizzard forums, they have devs and mvps that pop in a hell of a lot more frequently than they do here, aside from the mods removing CoC issues or sinking, and yes, the occasional ticket.

I don't agree that they should be engaging on Reddit as though that's the main community. It should be done here.

Tandor

I suggest the following:-

If you have a specific issue then highlight that in the title of a thread, and the chances are much greater that the devs will (1) respond to it and (2) concentrate discussion in that thread so avoiding the dilution of the discussion across a myriad of different threads.

If you see your topic already being discussed then add your views to that thread, do not start an identical one.

Avoid at all costs such titles as "ZOS: Read this", "Important - must read" and so on. Such titles are ego-boosters and nothing more. They will sink and deservedly so.

Above all, make your point constructively. Be critical by all means, albeit of some aspect of the game and not the individuals behind it, but do so in an adult manner. If you must engage in trash talk then save it for Cyrodil!

Ralathar44

Hilgara wrote: »

The WW thing has nothing to do with my post. I am talking generic problems that effect ALL players. And what makes it all the more annoying is that they DO respond to inconsequential crap, like facial expressions being different in character creation than in game. FFS if they have the time to post about rubbish like that then why cant they comment on a thread that had 50 pages and many thousands of views.

I have been gaming for over 30 years and I have never seen a more distant, unresponsive dev team than this.

Irony, even your response to me is vague and unfocused.

I understand, it's something people are used to doing on the internet. If you take a vague and unfocused stance it's harder to be wrong because you can always shift and twist when people address you.

It also robs the conversation of the ability to be productive or constructive. In the attempt to be "right" you have abandoned the goal you have set out to achieve.

The worst thing you can get in the computer industry when trying to help someone is people who cannot give you solid details and answers only in vagueries. Trying to improve a game is the same way.

They need focused, constructive threads to help them fix things.

Let me link my own thread as an example:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/109373/the-issues-with-werewolves-and-how-to-fix-them#latest

I could be wrong, I could even be very wrong. I am human. But I was specific and I gave as many details as I had.

I didn't whine "ehrmagerd whut u doin ZOS, joo suck." I provided as many details as possible and made suggestions in as organized of a fashion as I could. Right or wrong.

If more threads at least attempted to address things in that level of detail and dropped the whining it'd make their job alot easier. Though of course alot of people would still be fighting for their OP stuff.

Hilgara

Ralathar44 wrote: »

Let me link my own thread as an example:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/109373/the-issues-with-werewolves-and-how-to-fix-them#latest

I could be wrong, I could even be very wrong. I am human. But I was specific and I gave as many details as I had.

I didn't whine "ehrmagerd whut u doin ZOS, joo suck." I provided as many details as possible and made suggestions in as organized of a fashion as I could. Right or wrong.

Yeah yeah, very impressive. One small point....they didn't respond to your thread either.

Maybe, rather than trying to come across all superior you could actually read the thread. The two very specific questions I posed have be asked literally hundreds of times by lots of people in every imaginable format and in very fine detail.

They read the forums, there is no way on earth they are unaware of these issues and the degree of concern they cause their customers.

Ralathar44

I'm a computer/organized guy when it comes to accomplishing things. Complaints accomplish nothing. Information and hard work is power and moves the world.

We can only supply the information, they provide the power. The quality of our information is the quality of the power they can possibly put out. Even if they fail at their end, it behooves us to provide the best quality information we can, for our own self interest if nothing else.



[Moderator Edit: Removed Quoted Material]

Ralathar44

Hilgara wrote: »

Yeah yeah, very impressive. One small point....they didn't respond to your thread either.

Maybe, rather than trying to come across all superior you could actually read the thread. The two very specific questions I posed have be asked literally hundreds of times by lots of people in every imaginable format and in very fine detail.

They read the forums, there is no way on earth they are unaware of these issues and the degree of concern they cause their customers.

And if I fail? So what? All I can do is provide the best information I am capable of. I can but try to do my part.

Anything else becomes politics. Politics are exactly why things are so broken right now in companies and the world. I don't know why in the world people think they can fix politics (which mess things up) with politics lol. Personal politics, professional politics, legal politics, social politics, presidential politics. Different scopes, scales, and subjects, but same exact thing honestly.

Winning is meaningless if you become what you hate.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

Ralathar44 wrote: »

infraction2008b16_ESO wrote: »

Ralathar44 wrote: »

not complaints.

Starting to sound like North Korea Online rather than Zenimax Online..

Do we all have to get the same haircut as Paul Sage and bow the the glorious developers?

I'm a computer/organized guy when it comes to accomplishing things. Complaints accomplish nothing. Information and hard work is power and moves the world.

We can only supply the information, they provide the power. The quality of our information is the quality of the power they can possibly put out. Even if they fail at their end, it behooves us to provide the best quality information we can, for our own self interest if nothing else.

You've been saying that the burden is on us to provide better feedback and information for the devs to go off of, but I haven't really had much reason to do that at all. Other than the boiler-plate marketing spiel and the logic that a game company should listen to it's customers, I don't have any evidence that any hard work and time spent on in-depth study of game mechanics, bug reports, and useful feedback will even be seen by any of the developers. For all I know it will just get sunk to the bottom of the pile, like one of the many threads here on the forums.

zaria

Question: How is treads sunk?
Is not the treads listed after last posting date.

Hilgara

No they have the ability to prevent new posts from bumping the thread back to the top of the forum

Phantorang

Ralathar44 wrote: »

There is a reason most game developers speak to their communities sparingly, most of it is honestly our fault.

Speak for yourself. Blaming the Customers is always a BAD way to handle things.

TheMagicalSpiff

Ralathar44 wrote: »

I'm a computer/organized guy when it comes to accomplishing things. Complaints accomplish nothing. Information and hard work is power and moves the world.

We can only supply the information, they provide the power. The quality of our information is the quality of the power they can possibly put out. Even if they fail at their end, it behooves us to provide the best quality information we can, for our own self interest if nothing else.

Very true. And just because we give them information, or feedback, it does not mean that they are required to response in order to know what we typed. Just because they don't answer does not mean they don't see it.

Laura

the sinking is getting extremely out of hand I wouldn't have such a problem with it if they said it was being sunk but they aren't fooling anybody and it just makes them seem sneaky.

Moiskormoimi

zaria wrote: »

Question: How is treads sunk?
Is not the treads listed after last posting date.

These are Vanilla forums and they are easily sunk by abilities the mods have with the system.

http://www.wikihow.com/Manage-Threads-in-Vanilla-Forums

It gives you the option to do so.

Phantorang

Careful mentioning Entropy Rising in a thread, ER will make sure it sinks by calling ZoS on their Hotline

Hilgara

Maybe we could address our questions to ER then?

hamon

Hilgara wrote: »

ZoS, instead of sinking controversial threads why not join the discussion?
You are quite happy to comment on trivial matters but there are some huge threads on this forum that many people have contributed to and have raised many very valid points but we never get any input from the devs. While we don't expect you to have all the answers or fix all our issues we do expect you to help clarify your position. E.g

Is the discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds going to be addressed in a future patch?

Is the difficulty of some mobs intended (specifically some trash mobs having more health than boss's)

I was tempted to add a few more but since you seem to struggle with communication I'll leave it here. These two are the ones that keep bobbing to the top of the forums before you sink them so lets see how long this one floats.

i agree , just look at the huge game breaking issue type threads they utterly ignore , then look at the ones they post in.

"my daughter made a mask" posted in
" moar emotes" posted in

vet mode is killing your game. (or any one of a multitude of similar huge threads) =
ignored

magika versus stamina = ignored

i'm utterly amazed at the lack of understanding at how that is being percieved by an already disgruntled customer base.

nerevarine1138

You're right. They shouldn't sink threads; they should just delete them. Like this thread. This thread shouldn't sink. It should disappear, because it serves absolutely no purpose except to provide a central area for everyone to get angry at nothing.

Hilgara

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're right. They shouldn't sink threads; they should just delete them. Like this thread. This thread shouldn't sink. It should disappear, because it serves absolutely no purpose except to provide a central area for everyone to get angry at nothing.

yeah sure, having no communication from the dev team is nothing, right.
Gotta work on that trolling mate

nerevarine1138

Hilgara wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're right. They shouldn't sink threads; they should just delete them. Like this thread. This thread shouldn't sink. It should disappear, because it serves absolutely no purpose except to provide a central area for everyone to get angry at nothing.

yeah sure, having no communication from the dev team is nothing, right.
Gotta work on that trolling mate

We do have communication from the developers. The fact that they aren't responding to your pet issues in the way that you would like is a personal problem.

Of course, since the developers don't handle forum moderation, that's completely beside the point.

Hilgara

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

Hilgara wrote: »

nerevarine1138 wrote: »

You're right. They shouldn't sink threads; they should just delete them. Like this thread. This thread shouldn't sink. It should disappear, because it serves absolutely no purpose except to provide a central area for everyone to get angry at nothing.

yeah sure, having no communication from the dev team is nothing, right.
Gotta work on that trolling mate

We do have communication from the developers. The fact that they aren't responding to your pet issues in the way that you would like is a personal problem.

Of course, since the developers don't handle forum moderation, that's completely beside the point.

My pet issue that also coincidentally seems to be everyone else's pet issue. Get real, one glance though the forum history will tell even a noob that the two issues I mentioned are by a long way the most often repeated problems with the game. They make up for some of the longest running threads and include the most viewed threads.

The communication we do have is on inconsequential trivialities because the hired help that they left in charge of their own forum haven't a damn clue or are not being allowed to respond to these issues. it's not a coincidence, its deliberately ignoring the most common complaints from their customers.

Dayv

Wow, I'm in the unusual position of finding myself in agreement with @Hilgara, but ZOS's ostrich tactics to criticism doesn't fill me with much confidence.