Risk vs. Reward- when was the last time you actually equipped something you looted?

Tavore1138

I agree, just not quite sure what - anything they offer either has to be either simply a nominal thing like a title or something with real value like an item that gives something in game. That is why costumes with actual bonuses for quests or dungeons might fill both needs.

Their dyes might go some way towards doing this as your armour colours can be used to declare what you have achieved in the game.

If housing was around that would be another area where you could be rewarded without risking game balance getting worse.

flintstone

Vet rank questing is a train wreck and they just don't get it........to bad for them in the long run, and to bad for us right now.

I have 2 vets and I am just about fed up with it. I don't mind the harder play because it should be harder at these levels.......but the lack of reward (or at least the feeling of reward?) is game breaking for me.

Empty worlds at vet level, very poor grouping system design.......and endless grinding for very little reason takes it's toll on the player.

Arsenic_Touch

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

@Arsenic_Touch‌ - the problem is they made quite a deal pre-launch about crafting being the way to get the best sets, they made a very solid system around this that drains a lot of skill points to acquire.

If they do a U turn on that they are going to have a lot of grumpy crafters on their hands.

Except a lot of the crafted sets are crap. So they can make a big deal all they want, the system was poorly implemented. A lot of the dropped sets are crap too but that's beside the point. They need to get working on this like yesterday.mi have broken down so many purple weapons and armor, it's not even funny.

JungleBoot

There is no incentive to do anything. You loot containers for styles and special recipes and their ingredients. Then you aid some poor soul in rescuing a family member about every other side quest. The rest of the time is spent chasing after this or that item to use in this or that ritual. Each time you get rewarded with a piece of turd jewelry item, weapon, or armour.

After a while, you ask the OP's question in some form. The real question is "Is this all there is to the game?"

I can craft better gear than I find %100 of the time.

Tavore1138

Whatever they do has to avoid making balance worse so they cannot suddenly drop uber items or you just get into power creep and tedious rounds of escalation.

The question is - what are you expecting? The OP seems to be looking for things that are unique and meaningful and there are ways to do that without breaking current item scales.

But if,you are expecting gold items that do 1000 damage per hit or armour that looks like a cyborg and allows you to fly it ain't going to help the game.

Right now you can hunt for multiple dropped sets at various levels, you can make or find things in 14 styles, 3 weights, 5 qualities, 8 traits & 9 different materials - that is a lot of scope for variation and getting the thing you want.

If all you play for is to get the highest possible number on everything then either the game has power creep or,you are going to hit a wall where the variety exists but you hit a wall with numbers.

ESO needs to find non game breaking ways to make rewards more rewarding but simply adding a 0 on the end of each number isn't going to provide long term satisfaction.

joshisanonymous

RoCoL wrote: »

my accessories, whether through luck or whatever, I had acquired by VR 1. A 3 piece set and I have yet to find any suitable replacements for. So grinding another 8 VR levels and still using said set, is pretty sad.

The overall rewards really suck for the effort. For those that have reading comprehension issues or just skip reading and reply using what they think the content may be about, ill say this again.....and again, and again and again, the rewards do not have to be arms and armor and jewelry but make them meaningful.

Rewarding rewards reward both the crafter and those who do not craft by giving them something for doing something difficult.

Well, you pretty much exclusively talk about rewards with practical uses in your post, and make no mention of achievements of any kind. The only things you mentioned that were not armor/weapons/accessories were "hard stat bonuses," whatever the hell that means, "dyes," which aren't even implemented yet, and "purple food drops," which is just as much a crafting vs drops thing as armor/weapons. I'm a bit confused about why you'd expect people to not talk about armor/weapons/accessories.

But I feel like you're just gonna be indignant about any reply that doesn't agree with you if this is your reaction to my pretty non-combative reply so, have fun with your thread and I will continue to have fun with my crafting system.

Svann

SuraklinPrime wrote: »

@Arsenic_Touch‌ - the problem is they made quite a deal pre-launch about crafting being the way to get the best sets, they made a very solid system around this that drains a lot of skill points to acquire.

If they do a U turn on that they are going to have a lot of grumpy crafters on their hands.

They should not complain too much. For the comparative quality it is dead easy to level crafting. Easy to the point that people commonly level a 2nd and 3rd crafter just to get another hireling going. For a design where crafting is the best they made it too easy. (With the possible exception of enchanting)

Svann

indytims_ESO wrote: »

This always turns into a chicken or egg conversation.

If drops end up being 'good enough' to be worn over crafted gear, then crafters will whine that their stuff isn't good enough.

If crafters make the best stuff in the game, well... then you have threads like this one.

And if they are exactly even... then it feels like one/both are kinda pointless.

And the answer to that is to make sure whichever you choose to be superior is harder to get. That way they both have use. You get the easy one first then start trying for the hard one - either hunting for it or saving up for it. Dont make them equally easy, and for sure dont make the better one easier to get.

Heishi

The main problem I run into is I use crafted sets. So not only does the loot item have to be better than what I craft, it has to be worth breaking my set. Sure there are loot sets, but by the time I find all pieces of the set, I've out leveled it. That or I end up with a set for like 3 different levels. At that point again, it's not even worth breaking or swapping out the sets I have.

I do agree with a previous post that it would be kinda cool if you could modify/customize loot gear. Like say take a loot gear to a set location and modify it adding a trait or tempering it and it becomes part of the set.

Vis

Half of what I wear is from drops. Dominion set and warlock set account for 6 of my 11 slots.

Edit:I guess these don't count since one is more raid based and the other is pvp mail. However, back when the cap was v10, I still wore the v1 warlock set.

Fuzzylumpkins

Never. Always crafted my gear. Never played an mmo previously that I felt so unrewarded for everything I did. The "big" rewards for completing the main story line at 50 and vr10 say plenty about quest rewards and drops.

Hypertionb14_ESO

I admit that the only gear i ever bother with is the dropped only sets. Even created a intresting medium armor melee build that relied on the low cost of death stroke and the one set bonus that restores a bunch of HP when using a ultimate.

less than 40 ultimate for dealing a good heavy strike and healing 500+ hp. if the rest of the combat in melee ever improves this kind of thing might be one of the more common builds, at least for NB and templar.. (templar for sweep, a low cost AOE ult)

Audigy

RoCoL wrote: »

The VR levels are tough. Not being properly rewarded makes them almost unbearable.

My job flexibility allows me to game many hours a week, yet I am not a hard core gamer. I am a VR9 that started early beta access. I enjoy reading the books, listening to the stories and so far in general enjoyed the entire content in the game. I try and kill most anything in my path, I try and utilize every tool in my 'tool box' - always trying new skills and skill combinations but the rewards for such a grind have become non-existent. I am not an uber gamer, but competent and persistent.

Currently I quest in the VR zones that are 1 level below my VR level and find them to be fun and challenging, but not rewarding.

Since VR 4, between myself and my four buds, everything I use is crafted station gear. My jewelry is a 3 piece set that is VR1 (the same set can be found in higher levels, but I have not come across them yet) Currently the drops are nigh worthless.

Any weapon, armor, jewelry drop are nothing but measly gold or mats. The gold is not great enough to justify going after the 'elusive' green and occasional blue that you will not use anyway, and most likely die a few times trying to get. Honestly cannot remember when the last time I pulled a 'purple' - not that it would matter, It would get passed on, or sold, because its worthless to my set....

There is certainly risk adventuring in the VR zones but the rewards are non-existent.

How about a boss that drops a nice set piece(s) from the local crafting station(s)? This may or may not compliment your set, but it has more worth -not necessarily gold value- than something your just going to break down or ah/sell anyway.

How about VR rewards that give hard stat boots?

How about VR purple food drops that last 6 hours?

How about armor dyes as drops?

I am not much of a pvp player but have been spending more time in Cyrodiil as the battle is more rewarding, or fulfilling, than questing. But I'm not even using those rewards, because once again, my crafted set pieces are more complimentary to my avatar than the drops.

This lack of reward will have significant impact on long term players. Now I am able to craft 'lowbie' gear for any new toons I wish to roll up rendering most quest given, loot drops worthless to the new toon. So at level 10 my 'newbie' really has no incentive to do anything but get xp in the least dangerous way.

There are basically two design philosophies at MMO´s today with a third long forgotten one.

1. Find Loot

This system which you can find at World of Warcraft, Wildstar, SWTOR or GW2 lets you find the best loot usually in a raid Environment or by collecting points that you trade with vendors. Problem here is, that you always do the same raid or quest, but nothing more. It becomes pretty boring and tiresome, as you don't advance in the story or the world you play in.

2. Craft Loot

This is the system SWG and now ESO uses. Here the main focus is on crafting, so that you don't need to farm a single mob for weeks or even months to get a good item. The disadvantage is, that people who get their motivation from finding gear can lose their interest.

3. Sandbox

This is a system that was used by Ultima, the idea behind it was that you did not really have "that" item, but variations and not one but many ways to that item.

As example, a Crafter could make pretty much every item with any type of bonus - but those items were only specialized but not better or worse than a drop which were more random. So if you wanted an item set that lowered your reagents needed for casting then you could craft it or find a similar one in a cave.
The choice was really yours, were you a hunter, a crafter, maybe a trader or an adventurer that went for treasure spots? It was all possible, for every type of player / profession.

Important to say however is, that the various professions at Ultima were in high demand back then - also because the game was incredible hard for beginners to die automatically put you at risk of losing all your items to some scavenger that waited at the cave entrance for your failure

The good in such a system is that it allows different player types to get the same strength in the long run, but that it was the players choice how he wanted to aquire that strength. That said, Ultima did not rely on items that much as todays MMO´s, but on the professions and how you leveled your Char (you could always unlearn stuff, but it took ages)

While there were some incredible rare and expensive items (several thousand $$$) - they were not needed to play, but more a prestige reward.

Todays MMO´s use items usually for "progress" - I cant say that I like that much though.

System one that Wow & Co use, I really cant stand anymore - its just so boring ...

The raid or die philosophy behind such a system aint Casual friendly and lets face it, most MMO players are Casuals and for them a crafting system works better than a loot system, so ZO is going the right way at the moment.

That said, maybe ZO finds the time to move more towards the Ultima system in future so that the whole trading works better with shops and that loot hunters can find stuff in special adventures (non raids)

SteveCampsOut

Fleymark wrote: »

Also bear in mind that dropped sets tend to be the better ones compared to crafted and dropped armor can be improved with crafting even though it's a drop.

I'd like an example of how a "Dropped" set tends to be better than a crafted set. You , first of all, don't find dropped complete sets at every level you experience in the game. Second, you can't change the traits on "Dropped" sets to suit you and most "Dropped" sets all share the same trait, be it Impenetrable, Well-Fitted" or what have you. This, by definition means they do NOT tend to be better than crafted sets! You can craft an entire 3 to 5 piece set with any trait you desire. You can enchant it with whatever you like and you can improve it to Legendary status. Do dropped sets have bonuses you don't find on crafted? I haven't seen them all so I don't know, but I'll assume they do. Do you want to be VR12 with a dropped set you cling to for it's bonus that is stuck at VR6 or VR10 when you could have a crafted set with a different bonus that is maxed out in level, stats and quality? I have yet to see a dropped set bonus that I wouldn't trade for a crafted set made to my level and specs traitwise!

Moiskormoimi

@Audigy While I agree with some of your sentiment, just because an mmo becomes sandbox doesn't mean it ends up being linear. I encourage you to look into ArcheAge. It is a sandbox mmo with various properties and no real 'progress tracking' but there are so many aspects of the game, that there is something for everyone. If you like questing, it has that. If you like to get gear through dungeons, it has that. If you like to craft gear, it has that. If you want to build a house, raise a farm, do trade routes, pvp, be on a jury and decide the fates of reported players in game, go to jail and do achieves there, explore, steal, etc.

And most importantly, you actually feel that whatever route you take pertains to you and you get some benefit for it, and some type of carrot for whatever you choose, whether it's achievements, gear, crafting mats, rep level, etc.

fromtesonlineb16_ESO

rblown1988b16_ESO wrote: »

Seriously though, I agree with everything the OP has said. VR content admittedly should be hard,

Why?

This is LEVELING content, not end-game, why should it be a long, tedious slog with dying as part of the experience when 1-50 was entirely different.

If it were END-GAME then fine, but it isn't, it's a 21st century version of 1990s XP/gear grindfests with group-or-GTFO from VR10 upwards.

steveb16_ESO46

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Fleymark wrote: »

Also bear in mind that dropped sets tend to be the better ones compared to crafted and dropped armor can be improved with crafting even though it's a drop.

I'd like an example of how a "Dropped" set tends to be better than a crafted set. You , first of all, don't find dropped complete sets at every level you experience in the game.

Yes but you can trade around for them. I've done a reasonable trade selling pieces of dropped sets and occasionally managed to piece together one from drops, guild and chat sales.

Hilgara

Never because I always play in crafted sets and nothing drops that would be better then losing my set bonus

nikolaj.lemcheb16_ESO

Dark age of Camelot had a really good solution to the crafter/drop conflict. Certain equipment slots dropped gear was best and in other slots crafted were best.

All the best item setups always contained a combination of epic loot and crafted items.

steveb16_ESO46

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

rblown1988b16_ESO wrote: »

Seriously though, I agree with everything the OP has said. VR content admittedly should be hard,

Why?

This is LEVELING content, not end-game, why should it be a long, tedious slog with dying as part of the experience when 1-50 was entirely different.

If it were END-GAME then fine, but it isn't, it's a 21st century version of 1990s XP/gear grindfests with group-or-GTFO from VR10 upwards.

I agree but there it is, this is how ESO is. It's not an accident. VR is where the game basically tells you to stop playing unless you're the specific type of player it wants long term.

If you're the type of player who isn't prepared to min-max to whatever the current OP build is; if you're the type of player who likes a good story that makes sense and who can't stop wondering why the other faction areas are populated entirely by traitors from other another faction while everything from mud crabs upwards appear to have been exposed to kryptonite, then this game isn't for you. And it doesn't pretend to be from that point onwards.

Best to start finding that out immediately after the first faction story ends. Enjoy it for what it is, (which from 1-50 is basically a very nice solo RPG with some optional grouping content), while you're still having fun and then move on.

ESO won't ever be what you or I might want.

There are other games that deliver different experiences and besides - Dragon Age Inquisition will soon be with us.

Sleepydan

I sympathize with what the op is saying with regards to the risk vs reward being a tad skrewy, but that being said, I'm going to rephrase the problem in a different way. You know, semantics.

The last time you equipped something you looted(rarely!) was the last time something you looted was better than what you were wearing.

VR levels are long, and you have plenty of time to craft or commission a nice set of current gear with the right enchantments and some tasty set bonuses to boot.

I don't see how you can get that...idk..."arpg" feel where everything is a loot piñata and you get/chase incrementally better gear all the time, and still have the modular crafting+attribute system.

I realllllly like the modular crafting+attribute system. However this feeling of rewarding risk is addressed, if at all please respect the excellent system already in place.

Gearing with a plan > gear lottery. That is all.

Edit: sorry insta edit. I strongly feel that experiencing the story, getting sky shards/lore books, attribute bonuses AND access to better gear IS a reward and incentive for VR levels.

Not enough of a reward is one thing, but to say there is no reward is blatantly false.

RoCoL

joshisanonymous wrote: »

RoCoL wrote: »

my accessories, whether through luck or whatever, I had acquired by VR 1. A 3 piece set and I have yet to find any suitable replacements for. So grinding another 8 VR levels and still using said set, is pretty sad.

The overall rewards really suck for the effort. For those that have reading comprehension issues or just skip reading and reply using what they think the content may be about, ill say this again.....and again, and again and again, the rewards do not have to be arms and armor and jewelry but make them meaningful.

Rewarding rewards reward both the crafter and those who do not craft by giving them something for doing something difficult.

Well, you pretty much exclusively talk about rewards with practical uses in your post, and make no mention of achievements of any kind. The only things you mentioned that were not armor/weapons/accessories were "hard stat bonuses," whatever the hell that means, "dyes," which aren't even implemented yet, and "purple food drops," which is just as much a crafting vs drops thing as armor/weapons. I'm a bit confused about why you'd expect people to not talk about armor/weapons/accessories.

But I feel like you're just gonna be indignant about any reply that doesn't agree with you if this is your reaction to my pretty non-combative reply so, have fun with your thread and I will continue to have fun with my crafting system.

carry on, lol.