Bolt Escape Versus Gap Closers

Vis

Gap Closers:
-They are plentiful
-Have solid utilities
-And are now Far cheaper than bolts

Bolting only once does gap closers a favor:

1.) I remove the minimum range
2.) Give them great bonuses (shields, increased crit damage, roots, and/or stuns)

The utility of bolting is now gone. It's broken.

One bolt every 4 seconds is worthless, and bolting a second time costs most dedicated magicka builds 20% of their entire magicka pool.

All this nerfing AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM!

I CAN STILL run from any fight I want!

The only difference is for those who want to stay and fight. We're the ones with far less chance of survival, and only because we want to stay and fight. Running from an unbalanced fight has never been so appealing.

Now, do we nerf closers? Heaven forbids ZOS nerfs anything else in this game (only God could imagine the new bugs).

May I suggest then we re-imagine bolt escape?

Some different ideas that could seriously help (get ready for the flames):

1.) Increase the distance traveled by bolt

2.) Make the 50% penalty apply on the third bolt

3.) Lower the base cost of bolt

4.) Allow bolt to root anyone within 5m of the starting point

5.) Change bolt escape's animation to look like ball of lightening and then all gap closers charge into the ball (like how it absorbs projectiles)

6.) After bolting the next attack's damage is negated

7.) Rolling/blocking cost decreased for x seconds after bolting

8.) Disappear for 2 seconds after bolting (cd 8 seconds)

9.) All other magicka skill costs decrease after second bolt (that way you encourage dps over running away)

10.) After bolting have an aoe debuff surrounding you for 4 seconds

*And Remember:

Brutalis

...aaand scene. *Sigh*

Liquid_Time

I thought I would add value to this post.

Well the rain exploded with a mighty crash
As we fell into the sun
And the first one said to the second one there
I hope you're having fun.

crislevin

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

Liquid_Time

crislevin wrote: »

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

Lets say they did increase the distance.. That would mean no gap closers could interfere with your bolt escape.. What do you think the end result of that would be?

The same as pre-nerf.

Maulkin

Another bolt escape thread.... Jesus wept

Carnagan

Anyone with a gap closer is using up a very limited ability slot to have it there, and it results in an ability that cannot be used once that gap has been closed.

So why should your choice of an ability, which can cause damage while you escape, auto-trump someone else's? If you're that concerned about getting away, make sure you have enough magicka to get away from someone with a gap closer. And if you can't do that, accept that you have to fight.

crislevin

Liquid_Time wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

Lets say they did increase the distance.. That would mean no gap closers could interfere with your bolt escape.. What do you think the end result of that would be?

The same as pre-nerf.

So the purpose of the nerf is to be sure bolt ESCAPE is useless. is that your argument here?

Liquid_Time

crislevin wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

Lets say they did increase the distance.. That would mean no gap closers could interfere with your bolt escape.. What do you think the end result of that would be?

The same as pre-nerf.

So the purpose of the nerf is to be sure bolt ESCAPE is useless. is that your argument here?

I am not sure how you are currently using it, but I still see it being used with success..

crislevin

Carnagan wrote: »

Anyone with a gap closer is using up a very limited ability slot to have it there, and it results in an ability that cannot be used once that gap has been closed.

So why should your choice of an ability, which can cause damage while you escape, auto-trump someone else's? If you're that concerned about getting away, make sure you have enough magicka to get away from someone with a gap closer. And if you can't do that, accept that you have to fight.

lol, do you even know what PVP looks like in this game?

you seriously telling people all your char doing is 1v1 in Cyrodiil and gap closer can be only used once on one single target?

vyndral13preub18_ESO

crislevin wrote: »

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

How would you fix it? Make them all the same? That doesn't actually fix the problem either. Unless you bolt before the person is right on top of you. But through numerous other threads on this topic, i have discovered that is impossible, pvp is chaos incarnate and no one will ever be able to stay away from anyone else. So it is safe to assume you will only be bolting with someone standing on your head. So obviously bolting needs to be larger then gap closers. That is the only way you could ever get out of range with out using 2 bolts. best to make it 30 meters incase you go the wrong way or lag or something.

crowfl56

Easy fix, delay the use of both escape and closure, by 5-10 seconds. No spamming either type. End of problem.

crislevin

vyndral13preub18_ESO wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

and every closer has 22+ range. A sorc need two cast of BE, costing 700+ magicka to get out the range of ONE cast of a closer.

How would you fix it? Make them all the same? That doesn't actually fix the problem either. Unless you bolt before the person is right on top of you. But through numerous other threads on this topic, i have discovered that is impossible, pvp is chaos incarnate and no one will ever be able to stay away from anyone else. So it is safe to assume you will only be bolting with someone standing on your head. So i obviously bolting needs to be larger then gap closers. That is the only way you could ever get out of range with out using 2 bolts. best to make it 30 meters incase you go the wrong way or lag or something.

I would simply make it same range.

sure a sorc actually needs more to ESCAPE, but the *** from a longer range from other classes will be unbearable.

ErilAq

@liquid_Time great Wings reference. To the bolt escape issue, it didn't need to be nerfed, but honestly, there's more forms of CC than bolt escape. I didn't use escape much at all to be honest. (more as a form of getting one place to the other in pve since my horse is all carrying capacity) For pvp I much preferred restraining prison and rune cage. and as to the gap closers stunning you: block. you know they'll charge if you're 20m away from them.

crislevin

ErilAq wrote: »

@liquid_Time great Wings reference. To the bolt escape issue, it didn't need to be nerfed, but honestly, there's more forms of CC than bolt escape. I didn't use escape much at all to be honest. (more as a form of getting one place to the other in pve since my horse is all carrying capacity) For pvp I much preferred restraining prison and rune cage. and as to the gap closers stunning you: block. you know they'll charge if you're 20m away from them.

you can't even if you want to, and thats the problem.

Its ever about if some specific skill is useful for an individual, its that the basic fairness of the skill cost.

All I see is people envying sorc can travel fast w/o buying an expensive horse. The fix for that is the lower the freaking cost of the horse, rather than make a skill useless.

Liquid_Time

crislevin wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

@liquid_Time great Wings reference. To the bolt escape issue, it didn't need to be nerfed, but honestly, there's more forms of CC than bolt escape. I didn't use escape much at all to be honest. (more as a form of getting one place to the other in pve since my horse is all carrying capacity) For pvp I much preferred restraining prison and rune cage. and as to the gap closers stunning you: block. you know they'll charge if you're 20m away from them.

you can't even if you want to, and thats the problem.

Its ever about if some specific skill is useful for an individual, its that the basic fairness of the skill cost.

All I see is people envying sorc can travel fast w/o buying an expensive horse. The fix for that is the lower the freaking cost of the horse, rather than make a skill useless.

Oh.. That must be why people were upset with the skill. Now it all makes sense.

crislevin

Liquid_Time wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

@liquid_Time great Wings reference. To the bolt escape issue, it didn't need to be nerfed, but honestly, there's more forms of CC than bolt escape. I didn't use escape much at all to be honest. (more as a form of getting one place to the other in pve since my horse is all carrying capacity) For pvp I much preferred restraining prison and rune cage. and as to the gap closers stunning you: block. you know they'll charge if you're 20m away from them.

you can't even if you want to, and thats the problem.

Its ever about if some specific skill is useful for an individual, its that the basic fairness of the skill cost.

All I see is people envying sorc can travel fast w/o buying an expensive horse. The fix for that is the lower the freaking cost of the horse, rather than make a skill useless.

Oh.. That must be why people were upset with the skill. Now it all makes sense.

LOL, they claim variety of things, this is the only thing actually make any sense.

Grimbim

Vis wrote: »

"The only difference is for those who want to stay and fight. We're the ones with far less chance of survival, and only because we want to stay and fight. Running from an unbalanced fight has never been so appealing."

qft

vyndral13preub18_ESO

crislevin wrote: »

Liquid_Time wrote: »

crislevin wrote: »

ErilAq wrote: »

@liquid_Time great Wings reference. To the bolt escape issue, it didn't need to be nerfed, but honestly, there's more forms of CC than bolt escape. I didn't use escape much at all to be honest. (more as a form of getting one place to the other in pve since my horse is all carrying capacity) For pvp I much preferred restraining prison and rune cage. and as to the gap closers stunning you: block. you know they'll charge if you're 20m away from them.

you can't even if you want to, and thats the problem.

Its ever about if some specific skill is useful for an individual, its that the basic fairness of the skill cost.

All I see is people envying sorc can travel fast w/o buying an expensive horse. The fix for that is the lower the freaking cost of the horse, rather than make a skill useless.

Oh.. That must be why people were upset with the skill. Now it all makes sense.

LOL, they claim variety of things, this is the only thing actually make any sense.

I actually dont like it because Sorcs use it to drop their stupid rock people on me when i am going all siege crazy on them. And also the blue ball they leave behind hurts my eyes when i look directly at it. So nerf rock people and blue balls as well.

UrQuan

Before I add my comment, here's the caveat: I say this as someone who doesn't use bolt escape (out of my 16 alts only 2 are sorcerers and they're not very high level).

I like the bolt escape nerf, but I think it should have come with a small buff to the distance. The nerf means that you can't spam it (which is good), but without buffing the distance it goes it also means that it's not really an escape at all. A slight distance buff would make bolt escape a good means to gain a brief respite from combat, while the cooldown and increased magicka cost prevent it from being spammable and OP.

NobleX35

Quit complaining...I see bolt escape still widely used in pvp and it's definitely still an effect means of "escaping" from single/small group targets in particular. Sure you can't bolt as many times as you could before and that needed to be changed.

BE still pretty much ignores stuns, and when it doesn't you just pop out and bolt again and again and again...before you know it you're out of gap closing range.

Basically it's up to you to decide if it's worth burning your entire magica pool now to run away or stay and fight and not burn your pool.

Regardless of range/costs it's a lot easier to open a gap than it is to close one with that skill.

crislevin

GothicPython wrote: »

Quit complaining...I see bolt escape still widely used in pvp and it's definitely still an effect means of "escaping" from single/small group targets in particular. Sure you can't bolt as many times as you could before and that needed to be changed.

BE still pretty much ignores stuns, and when it doesn't you just pop out and bolt again and again and again...before you know it you're out of gap closing range.

Basically it's up to you to decide if it's worth burning your entire magica pool now to run away or stay and fight and not burn your pool.

Regardless of range/costs it's a lot easier to open a gap than it is to close one with that skill.

Thats all the magicka right there, so you just saying, if a sorc want to use BE to escape properly, he/she just should not going into pvp at all. Since they basically can cast one single spell every 4 sec. Anymore will reduce their magicka pool to two BE or less.

CosmicChaos

Vis wrote: »

Gap Closers:
-They are plentiful
-Have solid utilities
-And are now Far cheaper than bolts

Bolting only once does gap closers a favor:

1.) I remove the minimum range
2.) Give them great bonuses (shields, increased crit damage, roots, and/or stuns)

The utility of bolting is now gone. It's broken.

One bolt every 4 seconds is worthless, and bolting a second time costs most dedicated magicka builds 20% of their entire magicka pool.

All this nerfing AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM!

I CAN STILL run from any fight I want!

The only difference is for those who want to stay and fight. We're the ones with far less chance of survival, and only because we want to stay and fight. Running from an unbalanced fight has never been so appealing.

Now, do we nerf closers? Heaven forbids ZOS nerfs anything else in this game (only God could imagine the new bugs).

May I suggest then we re-imagine bolt escape?

Some different ideas that could seriously help (get ready for the flames):

1.) Increase the distance traveled by bolt

2.) Make the 50% penalty apply on the third bolt

3.) Lower the base cost of bolt

4.) Allow bolt to root anyone within 5m of the starting point

5.) Change bolt escape's animation to look like ball of lightening and then all gap closers charge into the ball (like how it absorbs projectiles)

6.) After bolting the next attack's damage is negated

7.) Rolling/blocking cost decreased for x seconds after bolting

8.) Disappear for 2 seconds after bolting (cd 8 seconds)

9.) All other magicka skill costs decrease after second bolt (that way you encourage dps over running away)

10.) After bolting have an aoe debuff surrounding you for 4 seconds

*And Remember:

I think I can clear this up. It seems the misunderstanding has occurred because of the name that I feel misleads users. It is indeed called Bolt Escape, but what do they want you to escape I wonder? Seems to me it's not about escaping combat, but situations in combat when proximity is a disadvantage. Like when DKs spam their AoE win buttons. You talk about gap closers like they are the end all of your class. However if someone is spamming CC and you are doing nothing to counter I have trouble sympathizing with you. With the exception of a few times when I have no clue why my CC break,roll and immovable had zero effect. Countering CC has never been a problem for me and I don't have a magicka based ability that gets me out of most single target spell/melee range after I use a 3rd of my stamina to break CC. I'm a V6 Templar by the way. I'm not flaming you, but I am also not wrong.

xDonMega

Basically it's up to if you've started casting any spells you won't have enough magika to bolt more than twice... so it's pretty useless unless you have a full bar to begin with.

crislevin

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Gap Closers:
-They are plentiful
-Have solid utilities
-And are now Far cheaper than bolts

Bolting only once does gap closers a favor:

1.) I remove the minimum range
2.) Give them great bonuses (shields, increased crit damage, roots, and/or stuns)

The utility of bolting is now gone. It's broken.

One bolt every 4 seconds is worthless, and bolting a second time costs most dedicated magicka builds 20% of their entire magicka pool.

All this nerfing AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM!

I CAN STILL run from any fight I want!

The only difference is for those who want to stay and fight. We're the ones with far less chance of survival, and only because we want to stay and fight. Running from an unbalanced fight has never been so appealing.

Now, do we nerf closers? Heaven forbids ZOS nerfs anything else in this game (only God could imagine the new bugs).

May I suggest then we re-imagine bolt escape?

Some different ideas that could seriously help (get ready for the flames):

1.) Increase the distance traveled by bolt

2.) Make the 50% penalty apply on the third bolt

3.) Lower the base cost of bolt

4.) Allow bolt to root anyone within 5m of the starting point

5.) Change bolt escape's animation to look like ball of lightening and then all gap closers charge into the ball (like how it absorbs projectiles)

6.) After bolting the next attack's damage is negated

7.) Rolling/blocking cost decreased for x seconds after bolting

8.) Disappear for 2 seconds after bolting (cd 8 seconds)

9.) All other magicka skill costs decrease after second bolt (that way you encourage dps over running away)

10.) After bolting have an aoe debuff surrounding you for 4 seconds

*And Remember:

I think I can clear this up. It seems the misunderstanding has occurred because of the name that I feel misleads users. It is indeed called Bolt Escape, but what do they want you to escape I wonder? Seems to me it's not about escaping combat, but situations in combat when proximity is a disadvantage. Like when DKs spam their AoE win buttons. You talk about gap closers like they are the end all of your class. However if someone is spamming CC and you are doing nothing to counter I have trouble sympathizing with you. With the exception of a few times when I have no clue why my CC break,roll and immovable had zero effect. Countering CC has never been a problem for me and I don't have an magicka based ability that gets me out of most single target spell/melee range after I use a 3rd of my stamina to break CC. I'm a V6 Templar by the way. I'm not flaming you, but I am also not wrong.

I do agree with you on the naming problem, changed to "naked" should be sufficient.

Also, sorc don't usually put any points into stamina, right?

and btw, there is a reason why classes are different, there is melee class, and then there is ranged class.

CosmicChaos

crislevin wrote: »

CosmicChaos wrote: »

Vis wrote: »

Gap Closers:
-They are plentiful
-Have solid utilities
-And are now Far cheaper than bolts

Bolting only once does gap closers a favor:

1.) I remove the minimum range
2.) Give them great bonuses (shields, increased crit damage, roots, and/or stuns)

The utility of bolting is now gone. It's broken.

One bolt every 4 seconds is worthless, and bolting a second time costs most dedicated magicka builds 20% of their entire magicka pool.

All this nerfing AND YOU STILL HAVE NOT FIXED THE PROBLEM!

I CAN STILL run from any fight I want!

The only difference is for those who want to stay and fight. We're the ones with far less chance of survival, and only because we want to stay and fight. Running from an unbalanced fight has never been so appealing.

Now, do we nerf closers? Heaven forbids ZOS nerfs anything else in this game (only God could imagine the new bugs).

May I suggest then we re-imagine bolt escape?

Some different ideas that could seriously help (get ready for the flames):

1.) Increase the distance traveled by bolt

2.) Make the 50% penalty apply on the third bolt

3.) Lower the base cost of bolt

4.) Allow bolt to root anyone within 5m of the starting point

5.) Change bolt escape's animation to look like ball of lightening and then all gap closers charge into the ball (like how it absorbs projectiles)

6.) After bolting the next attack's damage is negated

7.) Rolling/blocking cost decreased for x seconds after bolting

8.) Disappear for 2 seconds after bolting (cd 8 seconds)

9.) All other magicka skill costs decrease after second bolt (that way you encourage dps over running away)

10.) After bolting have an aoe debuff surrounding you for 4 seconds

*And Remember:

I think I can clear this up. It seems the misunderstanding has occurred because of the name that I feel misleads users. It is indeed called Bolt Escape, but what do they want you to escape I wonder? Seems to me it's not about escaping combat, but situations in combat when proximity is a disadvantage. Like when DKs spam their AoE win buttons. You talk about gap closers like they are the end all of your class. However if someone is spamming CC and you are doing nothing to counter I have trouble sympathizing with you. With the exception of a few times when I have no clue why my CC break,roll and immovable had zero effect. Countering CC has never been a problem for me and I don't have an magicka based ability that gets me out of most single target spell/melee range after I use a 3rd of my stamina to break CC. I'm a V6 Templar by the way. I'm not flaming you, but I am also not wrong.

I do agree with you on the naming problem, changed to "naked" should be sufficient.

Also, sorc don't usually put any points into stamina, right?

and btw, there is a reason why classes are different, there is melee class, and then there is ranged class.

A sorc doesn't put points into stamina? So you think my Templar does? I'm starting to think assumptions are your thing and this might be pointless. But I'm running all my points in health actually. Stamina doesn't do jack for 98% of builds right now because all class skills are magicka based. As to classes being different you made my point for me. Your class has access to not only CC, but range control absent the need to target someone as you would with say Binding Jav on my Templar. If morphed properly your BE is also a 2 sec CC I believe that can hit multiple targets. As I said, I'm not wrong. Sorcs want BE to be a means to bail if a fight goes south, but if the Devs are nerfing it obviously wasn't the use they had in mind. I am sorry you can't out run players on horseback anymore. When there is an easy mode and it gets nerfed adjustment can be difficult. See while my first post wasn't sarcastic I just come off as a jerk sometimes. I can manage the same attempt at humor.

crislevin

so according to you, what is the purpose of Bolt Escape?

ErilAq

It's really not a bad nerf. just pop a CC, bolt, nuke, rinse, repeat. Yes 4 seconds is a long time in pvp, but that time can be scaled up/down with fixes. As I said, I rarely used it before the nerf, I don't think it will affect me much at all in the long run

NobleX35

crislevin wrote: »

GothicPython wrote: »

Quit complaining...I see bolt escape still widely used in pvp and it's definitely still an effect means of "escaping" from single/small group targets in particular. Sure you can't bolt as many times as you could before and that needed to be changed.

BE still pretty much ignores stuns, and when it doesn't you just pop out and bolt again and again and again...before you know it you're out of gap closing range.

Basically it's up to you to decide if it's worth burning your entire magica pool now to run away or stay and fight and not burn your pool.

Regardless of range/costs it's a lot easier to open a gap than it is to close one with that skill.

Thats all the magicka right there, so you just saying, if a sorc want to use BE to escape properly, he/she just should not going into pvp at all. Since they basically can cast one single spell every 4 sec. Anymore will reduce their magicka pool to two BE or less.

Basically...yes. Either risk burning all your magica trying to escape or stand your ground and fight. Everything needs to have consequences. Why should BE be immune from that same logic?

Any good Sorc who knows how to play the class has not been effected by it, and in fact many of whom I know prefer. It weeds out all the scrubs. They know when to use and when not too, and they can still use it as a very effective skill.

Quit complaining and L2P

NerfEverything

It has been stated multiple times by the devs that BE is working as intended. Reported for spam and mods should keep closing these threads.

CosmicChaos

crislevin wrote: »

so according to you, what is the purpose of Bolt Escape?

I'll shorten my first post because most of it was a response to the OP. Simply put this part here----> "Seems to me it's not about escaping combat, but situations in combat when proximity is a disadvantage.Like when DKs spam their AoE win buttons."