ZoS until you address Stamina Builds, You're not fixing the problem with class nerfs.

arnaldomoraleseb17_ESO

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Do you think we are all wearing cloth and using staves at end game because we want to be like gandalf? I really want to be wearing plate armor, but there's no reason.

Hahahahahaha. Agreed with you, I would like to know how many time more we have to wait.

Sarevok_Anchev

Just from personal experience, 1-50 as a stamina build was fun and I only used magicka to dump in to GDB on my DK. VR1-10 was easily, a complete shift in itemization and build towards magicka because it was clearly superior.

I was a 2h DK wearing heavy armor. My stamina and magicka regen were moderate with high health regen which was hardly noticeable. The problems I found were when I was spending stamina for my 2h abilities, I was running out of stamina for dodges and blocks very quickly. When I went full cloth + destro + 1h/Sh it was a huge game changer. I had 49 points in to health for a solid 2.5k+ health pool. Geared towards Magicka and easily got over soft cap and magicka regen softcap, and had a decent ~1600 stamina pool for dodges, blocks, and stun breakers with food.

Before much needed nerfs it was hard to imagine losing some 1v2 and 1v3 fights spamming Standard of Might + Burning Talons + Shield Bash. After, it still does pretty well but using different offensive abilities instead of Shield Bash.

I wish I could go back to 2h + plate and just be a more resilient fighter and only using magicka once in a while. I just wish I could acquire some crit without having to wear medium armor. Right now, I'd have to use Thief mundus, Weapon enchant, and certain sets. Please fix stamina builds so I can play the game how I like and not what the meta dictates.

OkieDokie

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Patch after Patch I see buffing of Night Blades, and Nerfing of Dragon Knights.

The only thing you've managed to do during that was make the Stamina Builds of each of those classes more useless then before.

Nightblade Stamina builds are still blah, and will never been taken because You've turned around and made the Caster Builds even stronger. There is a reason right now Nightblades are now becoming the Meta on the Euro Servers for Trials.

You've managed to weaken DragonKnight Caster Builds some, making them weaker the the Nightblade ones in terms of DPS, but you've absolutely gutted what little options there was for Stamina on the DK. Everytime you nerf a Class ability on the DK without actually fixing the problem of Light Armor vs Medium/Heavy you make those Stamina users that much worse.

You're forcing everyone into this Caster Based setup with each patch...Hell you actually had more build diversity before ya nerfed bash, Because at least one Stamina Build worked.

Until you actually address this issue, You're not fixing the problem.

Well, if the current game mechanics dictates magicka builds are superior, yes, you have to start balancing classes there. It is the logical approach.

And please, DKs are not weaker than NBs.

Skirmish840 wrote: »

Spot on xsorusb hopefully if we keep pointing it out they'll listen.

Nerf the damn NB Sorc build, not the NB Stam builds please..

Why would you ask for that? I don't want to play a stam build, class skills are magicka based and the reason I play NB is because I like their class skills.

Why don't you ask for a buff in medium armor instead? Just the same buffs we have with light armor but for stamina?

Why someone can't be happy with buffs and needs to ask for nerfs so other players will be unhappy?

Stamden

Completely agree!

killedbyping

Before you do class fix, you need to address stamina issues.

Drachdhar

Mephos wrote: »

And now, between Light and Heavy armor... Which armor gives more survivability? What do you think? (PvP).

heavy armor in my eyes is mainly for tanks to reduce incoming damage. PvP is balanced around other things than mitigrating damage. Which also can be seen at the passivs. I highly suggest medium armor for PvP over heavy armor. The argument "all armors should be viable" counts only if you say "all roles that a player should fulfill must be viable" Therefore, no one wants to have high heavy armor high dps players which can take a lot and will deal out a lot of damage.

Heavy armor actually gives you almost nothing useful for PvP except the high armor, medicore spell resist. The only thing where I could see this useful is a heavy armor health regen build which lives from passiv health regeneration and mitigrating damage down to survive longer fights.

Additional to that I believe from my depest hearts that this game should NEVER be balanced around PvP aspects. The majority of players are PvE players (have been in every MMO, will always be in every MMO except its a PvP only MMO).


don´t know, I´m no pvp expert and probably will never. I just hope they don´t balance skills around the pvp experience.

PvE barely needs any balance. Why? It is not competitive, or should not be and only is between elitist *** who generally cant play for *** either going by the ones i've teamed with previously. The only balance PvE needs is for player vs environment, which means if things are to tough for players you either buff em or nerf the mobs -> Easy as hell compared to competitive PvP.

PvP needs balance, or everyone will play the exact same thing. Like how it is now with Light Armor and Staffs. And where the hell is the fun in that?
All one sees basically is zerg trains spamming AOE(Impulse) skills endlessly, and rarely some lone nightblade solo stalking.

Heavy Armor is basically useless in PvP anyway due to how mitigation is barely noticeable. Heavy Armored players take a few points less in damage compared to a light armored player. Sure they may spend an eternity blocking and therefor take ages to get down, but down they will go... And with the bash nerf they are not so dangerous either anymore. And if they are not blocking, add 3 seconds on top of what it would take to kill a lightly armored foe, if even that.
And in this game, tanks have even less value when it comes to pvp due to the lack of Taunts functioning similiar to the way they do in many other MMOs, ie debuffing the taunteds damage output.

Drachdhar

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

GreasedLizard wrote: »

+100
As single target ... DW is horrifically bad DPS. It should be a leader in that regard...

Hmmm it's besides the point of the original post, but I think it's 2H that should be the king of single target melee DPS. DW has better AoE and kiting abilities so it should be slightly inferior in single target melee.

I've already give the OP an "agree", stamina builds are inferior to magicka ones and need buffing

Nah... Melee AOE should be the 2 hander expertise area. Why? Look at the damn weapon for crying out loud. Its heavy, requires large sweeping motions unless one stabs or pommel smash. Ergo AOE. Hell, just the way videogame characters use 2hander weapons makes me either laugh or facepalm generally.
DW on the other hand is very single target, anyone who would try to spin around like an idjit while dual wielding(DWing already being a pretty bad notion for all but the most skilled) would get killed instantly due to the many openings they present.
Gawd, people who think fighting is like a videogame...


On the other hand, on topic...
NBs getting buffed? What are you smoking? They have not gotten buffed yet, the only thing that has ever been viable for NBs is a magicka build. And most other classes have them beat on that as well. The only thing thats been done so far is fixing the incredibly bugged skills of NBs, which in some cases have even nerfed em. And most skills still dont work properly.

The nerfing of DKs is bad though. Why beat down the one truly functional class, well sorc is pretty decent as well.

Skirmish840

Why would you ask for that? I don't want to play a stam build, class skills are magicka based and the reason I play NB is because I like their class skills.

Um no... all the NB skills aren't magika based at all, shadowy disguise is and concealed weapon and so on, but not all, and the ones that do use it are expensive, then add sneaking around plus dodging and rolling then some bow tricks /rant on and the fact that a lot of peeps seems to think we need to wield a bloody wand instead of daggers ffs... /rant off

I have quite a high pool of Mag and Stam to pull off some nice tricks, my health suffers for it, I do not wish to make NB's worse, currently I feel like I have enough Mag pool to do what I need, but I'm not V1 or V12 yet so I'm speakin from a levelling build, not end game... I'm told endgame is very different, I will soon see.

Drachdhar

Skirmish840 wrote: »

Why would you ask for that? I don't want to play a stam build, class skills are magicka based and the reason I play NB is because I like their class skills.

Um no... all the NB skills aren't magika based at all, shadowy disguise is and concealed weapon and so on, but not all, and the ones that do use it are expensive, then add sneaking around plus dodging and rolling then some bow tricks /rant on and the fact that a lot of peeps seems to think we need to wield a bloody wand instead of daggers ffs... /rant off

I have quite a high pool of Mag and Stam to pull off some nice tricks, my health suffers for it, I do not wish to make NB's worse, currently I feel like I have enough Mag pool to do what I need, but I'm not V1 or V12 yet so I'm speakin from a levelling build, not end game... I'm told endgame is very different, I will soon see.

ALL class skills in this game are magicka based. All of them, for every class. They all cost magicka to use. Aside from staffs, all weapon skills are stamina based.

Skirmish840

Well I seem to have confused what you were getting at, because to me Class skills is not the only thing I use, I also use weapon skills which I presume with out looking are all Stam based...

My appologies

Daethz

WTB ZoS confirmation on this issue.

Kuse

1 of stamina builds problems is that there are no passive skills or bonus from sets or any ability morphs that can give you stamina itself - ONLY STAMINA REGEN! and I don't even mention about those miserable numbers of useful set bonuses what we have for weapon/stamina builds

my mistake, there is 1 ability that can gives you stamina itself, it's "evil hunter" ability, "expert hunter"'s morph

Artis

PvE barely needs any balance. Why? It is not competitive,....
PvP needs balance, or everyone will play the exact same thing.

Lol, it's like he's not reading what he's saying...

Yes, class skills needs to be changed. They should not depend on magicka or stamina or should depend equally on both so that no matter where you invest attribute points and no matter what enchants you have -- your numbers won't be worse, than numbers of others. Then we won't be forced to play mages .

Xsorus

I'm of the opinion every skill should of been designed in regards to a Single Target Version of the Ability and an AoE version of the ability.

It would of made things a lot more interesting.

Shaun98ca2

Kuse wrote: »

1 of stamina builds problems is that there are no passive skills or bonus from sets or any ability morphs that can give you stamina itself - ONLY STAMINA REGEN! and I don't even mention about those miserable numbers of useful set bonuses what we have for weapon/stamina builds

It seems like to me they are getting rid of most of the Magicka gain in this game as well. Took away Templars . Making NB's "worthless". DKs never really had much of one to begin with but after Templar "fix" DKs only became 2nd worst in the game.

If ANY class had "infinite Stamina" that would be one hard to kill class.

No I have a good feeling ZOS is getting rid of most the Resource Management and the Resource Management that's left will be "flavor" and less than useless.

After they do that Magicka and Stamina will finally be balanced.

I HOPE ZOS doesn't make a stupid mistake and go and change HA passives.

All 3 armors have balanced passives its just that Magicka and Stamina aren't balanced.

Drachdhar

PvE is far easier balanced... Just balance the Environment to match the players. Balanced classes is important for PvP on the other hand, as is balanced choices...

Everyone running around in Light Armor with Staffs, for BOTH PvE and PvP and spamming Pulsar or Elemental Ring is a far cry from balanced.
I already think there are way to much "magic" in this game, by far outstripping the presence it had in the single player games.

But then again, the way this game is currently going I doubt I will be playing it in about a months time. Shame, been following it eagerly since announcement, signed up to beta test the first day. Been wanting an online TES game since the 90s... maybe it will be better off in a years time.

Kuse

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

If ANY class had "infinite Stamina" that would be one hard to kill class.

I understand this but it's not our fault that they made stamina used for block, roll dodge, bash, stun/cast/ability interrupt, weapon abilities damage, weapon abilities cost, sprint, sneak

and after all of this I have less dps if I make pure stamina build, so to speak

why do I deserve it? WHY??? just joking)))

khele23eb17_ESO

Mephos wrote: »

.. Ok, just to explain to you how the system works:

you want to use mainly stamina spells (weapons spells) then you are almost forced to go medium/heavy armor..

you want to use mainly class spells/magicka spells then go light armor for magicka regeneration.

but don´t expect to go "I have max magicka/stamina" so I should use everything to its full potential.

also its dumb to go medium armor and expect magicka spells to work properly.
its like going light armor and only using stamina skills.

it just makes no sense, serious.

Its dumb to go medium armor and expect magicka spells to work properly? Well, *** me! Most of my magicka spells scaling off weapon crit (which I get from medium armor) makes perfect sense now!

Drachdhar wrote: »

On the other hand, on topic...
NBs getting buffed? What are you smoking? They have not gotten buffed yet, the only thing that has ever been viable for NBs is a magicka build.

Not the melee magicka build, thats for sure.

trimsic_ESO

I totally agree with the OP.

Most DK I know of have a strong magicka build. They can leverage on the great defensive skills of the DK class while taking advantage of the incredible DPS a strong magicka build can provide, leading to a situation where they are simply over powered.

Nerfing the DK is not the solution. Nerfing the magicka build is.

Most NB I know of have tried a strong stamina build, to no avail. There is no viable stamina build, may be with the exception of the bow, and therefore the general feeling about the NB is that the class is broken. Some of their abilities are broken, I agree, and had to be fixed. But the entire class is not.

Buffing the NB is not the solution. Buffing the stamina build is. Especially the dual wield and 2 handed weapons skills.

If the nerfs made to DK are too important, and if the buffs made to the NB are too high, then the risk is high that:
1) DK with a stamina build will be horrible to play
2) NB with a magicka build will be way too strong

c0rp

The fact that they are trying to balance this game with only ONE attribute build being effective is so asinine to me....I just dont understand some of the decisions this company makes.

alexj4596b14_ESO

I must be the only person in this game that can build a class based on both stats...

I have always build it based on main stats.


If I want too use magic abilities with melee weapon that means my weapon offers my utility and my class skills do damage, so that means in in light amour. If my weapon are doing the damage I'm in midium amour and my class skills are utility and buffing my weapons why can no on understand this?

alexj4596b14_ESO

I must be the only person in this game that can build a class based on both stats...

I have always build it based on main stats.


If I want too use magic abilities with melee weapon that means my weapon offers my utility and my class skills do damage, so that means in in light amour. If my weapon are doing the damage I'm in midium amour and my class skills are utility and buffing my weapons why can no on understand this?

khele23eb17_ESO

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

If I want too use magic abilities with melee weapon that means my weapon offers my utility and my class skills do damage, so that means in in light amour. If my weapon are doing the damage I'm in midium amour and my class skills are utility and buffing my weapons why can no on understand this?

If you want to use magic abilities with cloth/melee weapon your output will be significantly inferior to using cloth/staff just as it will be inferior if you go medium armor and focus on weapon dmg. Can you understand this?

trimsic_ESO

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

I must be the only person in this game that can build a class based on both stats...

I have always build it based on main stats.


If I want too use magic abilities with melee weapon that means my weapon offers my utility and my class skills do damage, so that means in in light amour. If my weapon are doing the damage I'm in midium amour and my class skills are utility and buffing my weapons why can no on understand this?

Everybody does understand what you mean. What you don't understand is that playing a strong magicka build is way more efficient.

Shaun98ca2

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

If I want too use magic abilities with melee weapon that means my weapon offers my utility and my class skills do damage, so that means in in light amour. If my weapon are doing the damage I'm in midium amour and my class skills are utility and buffing my weapons why can no on understand this?

If you want to use magic abilities with cloth/melee weapon your output will be significantly inferior to using cloth/staff just as it will be inferior if you go medium armor and focus on weapon dmg. Can you understand this?

But should everybody sacrifice fun or enjoyment at the cost of efficiency.

I roll Templar 2 hander Heavy Armor with a Restro Staff healing build for groups.

Sure a Magicka build with Light Armor WOULD be more efficient but why get used to efficient when one day that MIGHT change. So I play what I enjoy efficiency be damned cause no matter how balanced the game becomes there will always be a SLIGHTLY more efficient build than what you MIGHT wanna use.

So at what point do you just decide to have fun. You CAN find like minded people in the game that don't require efficiency every step of the way even for trials. Some people just wanna go and experience it. Why not try to use a terrible group and see what the fastest time you can get is?

khele23eb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Why not try to use a terrible group and see what the fastest time you can get is?

I shouldnt have to do that to have fun. And tbh... doesnt sound like something youd want to do more than once.

Shaun98ca2

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Why not try to use a terrible group and see what the fastest time you can get is?

I shouldnt have to do that to have fun. And tbh... doesnt sound like something youd want to do more than once.

Shouldn't have to do WHAT to have fun play the game the way you like? 1 of 2 things was going to happen the other classes were gonna get weaker to make the content harder

or

The classes would all get buffed up making the content easier then the content would be buffed to make it harder.

Sooner or later there is gonna be a balance might as well just get ready for it. Melee builds currently suck...maybe Magicka gets weaker and now you gotta relearn how to use a Magicka build, but having been Melee you didn't have to relearn anything you were always good at the game. If Melee gets buffed you will be ahead of the curve having been playing a melee build to begin with.

khele23eb17_ESO

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Sooner or later there is gonna be a balance

Perhaps... but if so, itll be at the extreme end of 'later'. Perhaps in the vicinity of 'too late' for a lot of people.

Shaun98ca2

khele23eb17_ESO wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

Sooner or later there is gonna be a balance

Perhaps... but if so, itll be at the extreme end of 'later'. Perhaps in the vicinity of 'too late' for a lot of people.

Well the have a while to really balance the game. The console version isn't even out yet so working on this game is actually working on that game with they have quite a few potential sales for.

Plus they have made some great progress in fixing issues with the game in just the last 2 months.

I understand they didn't fix EVERY issue but theres only so much you can do in so little time. So they are working on it. Fixing class balances then I imagine Stamina/Magicka balance next.

rotatorkuf

c0rp wrote: »

The fact that they are trying to balance this game with only ONE attribute build being effective is so asinine to me....I just dont understand some of the decisions this company makes.

this....a million times this

something i want to point out....look at all the gear sets and how they all recover magicka or are mostly magicka based....it's like zenimax has a cloth/magicka loving dev that keeps sneaking in all these changes while every other dev is 'oblivious'

edit: and ANOTHER imbalance toward magicka....of all the crafted sets, only 1 has weapon crit.....compared to 3 with spell crit

wtf zenimax, wake up

what set recovers stamina or buffs stamina? (no, i'm not talking about +14 stamina recovery, which is also worthless)