Non-angry, non-bitter, no-insults, non-nerfing thread about class balance

tinythinker

The idea for this thread is to solicit creative, thoughtful, class-themed solutions to specific issues.

There are plenty of acerbic, aggressive, and antagonistic threads about this topic for those who want to rage over their pet issue or troll the ragers. I am starting this thread for those who want something different.

There are reasons good and bad for people being upset over class balance issues, including:

• Getting destroyed in Alliance War (AvA/PvP) combat, or feeling unable to adequately destroy others.
• Seeing others able to perform better in Alliance Campaign (PvE) content.
• Having broken class abilities or class abilities that don't work well together or with related skill lines.

The gist of forum debates over the issue of class balance tends to boil down to flaming and trolling between the people shouting "nerf this ability/class" and the people shouting "learn to play". I am looking for comments that are insightful and creative enough to avoid this as these forums are filled with such "debates" already.

So here's the challenge.

Rather than hoping to see DKs and Sorcs broken and their players wailing (again, plenty of flame threads already exist for the bitter people and the trolls), how do you see them and other classes being balanced without nerfing content or classes? And also without just simply super-buffing basic values like the damage for certain weapon or class skill lines used by under-performing classes?

I am not a game developer, but I will toss out an opening puzzle and hint at the kind of solutions I am hoping to see others offer. I doubt ZOS reads these forums for solutions to their ESO problems, but good ideas are good ideas so if we can put them out there our suggestions may be considered. And even if not many people I am sure are tired of unproductive threads where the same things get repeated angrily over and over.

So here it is. The point isn't to argue over the premise I am suggesting or the limits in finding a solution, but to accept both and find a way forward anyway.

Puzzle: Dark Talons is very in providing useful crowd control in PvE for groups of mobs and allows a DK to deal some damage while holding foes in place for other point blank area of effect abilities. However, some players feel it is over-powered for AvA/PvP play. Each time you nerf it those who feel it is OP in the Alliance War cheer but those who rely on it for PvE get fed up. Simply changing the radius or magicka costs, while an "easy" fix, doesn't address the fact that what helps a problem in AvA/PvP creates one for PvE. What do you do?

Possible Solution: Examine the other classes based on the logic of what makes them work and adjust their skill lines accordingly. For example, nightblades are supposed to be shadowy figures who use stealth and dark magic to slip in and out of combat and deal massive bursts of damage. If they had an active or passive ability to avoid or break out of lockdowns* (i.e. snares and roots) this would be consistent with their class logic and feel on the one hand and would reduce the effectiveness of Talons in PvP combat on the other.

This capacity for avoiding or breaking lockdowns could take many forms. Here are a couple of them:

1. an active ability which gives a reduced stamina cost for breaking out of lockdowns over a period of time.
2. a passive ability that gives a 30%/50% chance of evading lockdowns.

Note how this helps with our problem. If a nightblade is in Cyrodiil and a DK tries to pop Talons, the former can use #1 and then break free (or because of #2 isn't even caught in the effect half of the time). If the DK pops Talons again, the nightblade can keep breaking it without using up all of her stamina. Thus a DK would have to consider whether burning through all of his magicka to spam talons in a PvP fight is worth it or whether its tactical value is better found in other situations. At the same time, a DK is still able to use Talons in PvE without having it nerfed.

Now someone may complain that this still gives a DK some unfair PvE advantage, but if so, use this same modus operandi to solve it by looking at class-themed ways to balance other classes without nerfing. Nerfs may be necessary at times but again it really is the least creative and most frustrating/divisive way to deal with class balance (and other) issues.

OK, your turn. Share your creative solutions here. For example, how might templars or sorcerers be modified in a class-themed way to make talons less OP in the Alliance War without effecting its utility in PvE? Or perhaps you have an example of this kind of solution for a different issue?

Thanks for reading. Thanks even more for thoughtful responses.


*Edited to add: I've been hearing complaints in Cyrodiil about everything being about who gets the lockdown first in a fight. This kind of solution helps with this issue as well beyond just talons without making lockdown abilities useless. Also, DKs have class-based solutions to another DK using Talons since they can do super intense point blank AoE and cone damage to anyone nearby and heal with Green Dragon Blood. But that still leaves sorcerers and templars.

HorsePhysics

tinythinker wrote: »

Examine the other classes based on the logic of what makes them work and adjust their skill lines accordingly. For example, nightblades are supposed to be shadowy figures who use stealth and dark magic to slip in and out of combat and deal massive bursts of damage.

IMO: The problem with this is that for some reason ZoS thought it would be a good idea to make classes and tell players that no matter what class they choose they can go and fufill any role they want their own way.

This resulted in 4 classes that try to be all around (with only two classes succeeding, but as OP said that's a discussion for another time.)

But then again, lets see what everybody comes up with.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

To me the biggest problem, in terms of balance, is the DK pyro mage build. It can easily pull off 1.2k+ (I've heard even as high as 2k) sustained single target dps and that's just not something that can be matched by the other classes. It's just hard to see a balance when one of the easiest trials groups consists of half DKs.

Devlinne

Give EVERY class a root dot, a teleport, a almost heal you to full skill and a stealth skill.
DONE. Balanced.

tinythinker

Devlinne wrote: »

Give EVERY class a root dot, a teleport, a almost heal you to full skill and a stealth skill.
DONE. Balanced.

Sorry, the idea for this thread is to solicit creative, thoughtful, class-themed solutions to specific issues. Not sure if this was posted in frustration or jest but the suggested solution doesn't fit those criteria. If you have something more in line with the goals of this thread please share.

Teevesnacks

Didn't they give roll an immunity to roots to combat talons spam? Or do you just want to be totally immune to them regardless of rolling.....

Teevesnacks

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

To me the biggest problem, in terms of balance, is the DK pyro mage build. It can easily pull off 1.2k+ (I've heard even as high as 2k) sustained single target dps and that's just not something that can be matched by the other classes. It's just hard to see a balance when one of the easiest trials groups consists of half DKs.

I would like to see actual data to back this up because I've "heard" of nightblades sustain 2k+ single target dps

Teevesnacks

tinythinker wrote: »

Devlinne wrote: »

Give EVERY class a root dot, a teleport, a almost heal you to full skill and a stealth skill.
DONE. Balanced.

Sorry, the idea for this thread is to solicit creative, thoughtful, class-themed solutions to specific issues. Not sure if this was posted in frustration or jest but the suggested solution doesn't fit those criteria. If you have something more in line with the goals of this thread please share.

His idea is called homogenization which is the quick and easy way to balance classes

tinythinker

Teevesnacks wrote: »

Didn't they give roll an immunity to roots to combat talons spam?

I don't know. I picked the Talons debate as an example of form for offering solutions in this thread, not to promote a particular solution.

Teevesnacks wrote: »

Or do you just want to be totally immune to them regardless of rolling.

Again, I picked the Talons debate as an example of form for offering solutions in this thread, not to promote a particular solution. As for my particular example solutions, the ideas are straightforward. One is reducing the cost for breaking out of any lockdown, Talons or otherwise. The other is a chance to evade a lockdown ability. If there is some other fix put in place with dodge to give such evasion then these solutions may not be necessary, but again, they were meant to be instructive in the process of class-themed/non-nerfing solutions to issue the of balance. If they are redundant to an existing fix that is OK.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Grant -move to target- abilities snare breaks. Grant the medium armor active snare break unmorphed and the morph that currently snarebreaks also break all cc.

Give more diverse crafting sets (so many heavily favor magicka use)

Grant heavy armor more innate damage reduction

change bolt escape into a powerful roll dodge (does damage and stuns/reflects missiles on successful dodge)

bring the stamina resource bar into line with health (to account for the huge pull on stamina from rolldodge/block/breakcc/bash)

change blur into a 'glancing blows' skill that is a % DR instead of a %miss

make sunshield restore % cost for each enemy hit

On the PVE side of things - grant mobs more damage reduction from armor and spell resistance - even up to 100% to certain elements (a lot with 100% fire resistance i think) to validate abilities like mark target and elemental weakness - also the sharpened trait on weapons.

Also block breaking moves yellow telegraph (white for power attacks red for spells, yellow for block break) that puts a long duration stun on a person if they're blocking.

Duration ultimates not allowing you to generate ultimate while active (subsequent cost decreases to balance it out)

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

Teevesnacks wrote: »

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

To me the biggest problem, in terms of balance, is the DK pyro mage build. It can easily pull off 1.2k+ (I've heard even as high as 2k) sustained single target dps and that's just not something that can be matched by the other classes. It's just hard to see a balance when one of the easiest trials groups consists of half DKs.

I would like to see actual data to back this up because I've "heard" of nightblades sustain 2k+ single target dps

I don't think I've ever heard that from a nightblade. Although to be honest, I've never even seen more than one or two nightblades in the trials.

Aeaeren

One suggestion, allow Templar Total Dark to also reflect AoE. DK runs in Talons and then goes to work but then the Templar puts Total Dark on him and /sitchair and watches him kill himself until he figures out he is killing himself. Make sure it also works on the I Win Stick, I love Standard of Might and do not want it nerfed just give other classes ways to counter it.

I get the Templar is a way more defensive class it's just it doesn't have enough yet and something that sets us apart to where people WANT Templars in groups.

Teevesnacks

HorsePhysics wrote: »

tinythinker wrote: »

Examine the other classes based on the logic of what makes them work and adjust their skill lines accordingly. For example, nightblades are supposed to be shadowy figures who use stealth and dark magic to slip in and out of combat and deal massive bursts of damage.

IMO: The problem with this is that for some reason ZoS thought it would be a good idea to make classes and tell players that no matter what class they choose they can go and fufill any role they want their own way.

This resulted in 4 classes that try to be all around (with only two classes succeeding, but as OP said that's a discussion for another time.)

But then again, lets see what everybody comes up with.

The idea behind "Play as you want" is that any classes can dps, tank or heal. Has any one person tried to do this to for every class? Because I would love their feedback all that I seem to see is that class x has what I want therefore they are better when in actual fact class y can be just as viable without abilities from class x

KracsNZ

Think Zenimax have made a balance nightmare for themselves. Too many variations, too many possible synergies with some that are incredibly game-breaking (i.e. the DK mage build soloing AA trial content).

Right now stamina builds are so far below magicka builds it's not even the same contest, and light >> medium >>>> heavy. Sadly, I don't have confidence that Zenimax will be able to untangle the mess they've made any time soon.

Sorry, can't really add much to the discussion, in too much of a pessimistic mode as my guild now numbers only about 6 active players. /sigh

tinythinker

Aeaeren wrote: »

One suggestion, allow Templar Total Dark to also reflect AoE. DK runs in Talons and then goes to work but then the Templar puts Total Dark on him and /sitchair and watches him kill himself until he figures out he is killing himself. Make sure it also works on the I Win Stick, I love Standard of Might and do not want it nerfed just give other classes ways to counter it.

I get the Templar is a way more defensive class it's just it doesn't have enough yet and something that sets us apart to where people WANT Templars in groups.

I guess this would have to be play-tested to see if it was unbalanced but an interesting suggestion. Perhaps it could reflect something less than 100% for AoE, maybe 30% or 50%? Thanks for the idea. I have a DK and a Templar so this seems like an interesting direction.

tinythinker

KracsNZ wrote: »

Think Zenimax have made a balance nightmare for themselves. Too many variations, too many possible synergies with some that are incredibly game-breaking (i.e. the DK mage build soloing AA trial content).

Right now stamina builds are so far below magicka builds it's not even the same contest, and light >> medium >>>> heavy. Sadly, I don't have confidence that Zenimax will be able to untangle the mess they've made any time soon.

Sorry, can't really add much to the discussion, in too much of a pessimistic mode as my guild now numbers only about 6 active players. /sigh

Sorry to hear that. But that's why I figured focusing on single-issues might help with an eye toward the larger interlocking elements. That is, to focus on class-themed alterations that focus on glaring issues with little chance of spill-over into the larger balancing web. Maybe there will be some clever ideas posted by people that will help cheer you up.

fredarbonab14_ESO

Here is the 'problem' conceptually speaking; you got a game that offers both PvE and PvP, one leads to the other, the player is on PvE for 50 levels and then starts working on his character to be able to compete effectively in PvP. What worked (class balance) just fine in PvE, or at least is not an issue, usually will not in PvP, when another whole can of worms opens up (class balance!). Class balance has been the single biggest headache for the last 25 years in any MMO that has remotely tried to achieve it. Its probably impossible to achieve, because the talent base among players keeps shifting.

This is not easy to do not only because of the differences among the abilities of the players themselves, but because the inherent nature of those players; PvErs and PvPers, kin their purest forms, are very different animals and have been forever in a power struggle to control MMO games for the last 20 years. PvPers by nature are also a more aggressive animal.

So what ESO is trying to do is A- very daring, B- very difficult and C- NOTHING they ever do will make both types of players happy.

What they must do? Choose which types of player IS their most important customers and the other is the stepchild, an added feature of bonus in the game, BUT not treat both equally important or devote the same amount of resources. As they will do and as you will see.

Teevesnacks

tinythinker wrote: »

Teevesnacks wrote: »

Didn't they give roll an immunity to roots to combat talons spam?

I don't know. I picked the Talons debate as an example of form for offering solutions in this thread, not to promote a particular solution.

Teevesnacks wrote: »

Or do you just want to be totally immune to them regardless of rolling.

Again, I picked the Talons debate as an example of form for offering solutions in this thread, not to promote a particular solution. As for my particular example solutions, the ideas are straightforward. One is reducing the cost for breaking out of any lockdown, Talons or otherwise. The other is a chance to evade a lockdown ability. If there is some other fix put in place with dodge to give such evasion then these solutions may not be necessary, but again, they were meant to be instructive in the process of class-themed/non-nerfing solutions to issue the of balance. If they are redundant to an existing fix that is OK.

Here's a link to the patch notes

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100211/patch-notes-v1-1-2#latest

As a DK myself I find it quite embarrasing that players have been able to create a build that has so much synergy with skills that they essentially become one man armies

ZOS has done some smart fixes like nerfing aoe ulti gain and buffing single target ulti gain which directly counters these builds(but not enough I guess)

I would seriously like to see less syngery from DK abilities with other skills where other classes just cannot reach that potential themselves

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

One thing about balancing that adds to the difficulty is the mixture of pvp and pve. Maybe if they were to add a couple new skill lines, revolving around the trials and further alliance war lines that could only be used in trials and cyrodiil respectively. This could allow for the kind of balancing issues that are unique to each realm.

tinythinker

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

Here is the 'problem' conceptually speaking; you got a game that offers both PvE and PvP, one leads to the other, the player is on PvE for 50 levels and then starts working on his character to be able to compete effectively in PvP. What worked (class balance) just fine in PvE, or at least is not an issue, usually will not in PvP, when another whole can of worms opens up (class balance!). Class balance has been the single biggest headache for the last 25 years in any MMO that has remotely tried to achieve it. Its probably impossible to achieve, because the talent base among players keeps shifting.

This is not easy to do not only because of the differences among the abilities of the players themselves, but because the inherent nature of those players; PvErs and PvPers, kin their purest forms, are very different animals and have been forever in a power struggle to control MMO games for the last 20 years. PvPers by nature are also a more aggressive animal.

So what ESO is trying to do is A- very daring, B- very difficult and C- NOTHING they ever do will make both types of players happy.

What they must do? Choose which types of player IS their most important customers and the other is the stepchild, an added feature of bonus in the game, BUT not treat both equally important or devote the same amount of resources. As they will do and as you will see.

Perhaps, but there are still things that can be done other than simplistic efforts at buffing/nerfing to create a better balance between the AvA/PvP and PvE. There are some major issues that stick out badly. So again, the challenge put forward is how to get closer to balance between classes for these major issues while also looking at the AvA/PvP vs. PvE balance, and how to do so with creative class-themed solutions. It isn't meant to be a cureall for the larger issues of the overall class-balance web, but more like taking some of the really rough or sharp edges off. Any ideas? You seem to have put some thought into the topic and well-though out ideas are very welcome.

tinythinker

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

One thing about balancing that adds to the difficulty is the mixture of pvp and pve. Maybe if they were to add a couple new skill lines, revolving around the trials and further alliance war lines that could only be used in trials and cyrodiil respectively. This could allow for the kind of balancing issues that are unique to each realm.

Yes, exactly, which is why I used Talons as the exemplar for problem-solving the balance issue. I am curious - what kind of extra skill lines do you envision? Is there a theme? And keep in mind, the primary issue here is class imbalance, so these new skills would need to be crafted with this concern in mind.

Zero_Tolerance

There are 4 classes and basic group instance type is 4man dungeon. It's all cool to allow every class do everything, it should stay that way. But for balance and clarity - each class should excel at one area, be better at it than other 3, even though any of the other 3 classes can do it too.

For example:
Templars heal (support?). DKs tank (support?). NBs single target DPS. Sorc AoE DPS.

Roles are important and we should be able to always have the same answer as to what class does what most efficiently. Class skills are there to give that advantage in one field, they only need adjusting. And weapon/armor skills (with some class skills) allow every class to fill in every role when needed.

The rest is in the content. It is already good enough and requires a mix of different roles. And with clear distinction between classes it'd allow for better mix. For time trials it'd be wise to make a 'meta' party, with NB needed for boss DPS, sorc for trash and DK/Temp for the usual battlefield control and heals. For the rest of the content, when you don't need to perform on the highest level, you could just go with 4 NBs, or 4 Sorcs or whatever other combination, knowing that it is not optimal, but it'll do the job anyway.

cjmarsh725b14_ESO

tinythinker wrote: »

cjmarsh725b14_ESO wrote: »

One thing about balancing that adds to the difficulty is the mixture of pvp and pve. Maybe if they were to add a couple new skill lines, revolving around the trials and further alliance war lines that could only be used in trials and cyrodiil respectively. This could allow for the kind of balancing issues that are unique to each realm.

Yes, exactly, which is why I used Talons as the exemplar for problem-solving the balance issue. I am curious - what kind of extra skill lines do you envision? Is there a theme? And keep in mind, the primary issue here is class imbalance, so these new skills would need to be crafted with this concern in mind.

Actually I was thinking of skill lines that were mutually exclusive, forcing you to choose one at the expense of the others. This would provide a series of checks and balances and some of the lines could have counters to the most potent abilities that classes currently have (such as bolt escape and talons). It may not be a good thing to have a direct counter to certain classes abilities but general abilities that could be used in a similar manner or to mitigate them might work.

As a side note, Zenimax has said they're planning on implementing Spellcrafting, so I'm interested to see how that will work.

fredarbonab14_ESO

Totally agree tinythinker; yes keep working on getting closer towards balance, especially starting with those abilities that are obviously 'unbalancing' in nature and easy to tweak. In this way you do not end up in PvP, post level 50, with an army of just two classes, which is the fear now.

Erlindur

I'm a firm believer of that most of PvE class problems come from PvP balancing and vice versa. I also think that the solution is already there.

We now have 3 PvP tree lines. Add more. Add for example role trees, like scout, battle mage, combat healer, tank. Have those new trees filled with active and passive (more passive due to skillbar limitations) traits that counter PvE abilities. Finally have those traits only active in PvP.

That approach may ever lead us into more diversity of classes in PvP and somehow de-zerg the game.

fredarbonab14_ESO

^^^ Bright thinking! Only active in PvP areas, excellent.

tinythinker

Erlindur wrote: »

I'm a firm believer of that most of PvE class problems come from PvP balancing and vice versa. I also think that the solution is already there.

We now have 3 PvP tree lines. Add more. Add for example role trees, like scout, battle mage, combat healer, tank. Have those new trees filled with active and passive (more passive due to skillbar limitations) traits that counter PvE abilities. Finally have those traits only active in PvP.

That approach may ever lead us into more diversity of classes in PvP and somehow de-zerg the game.

I think you and @cjmarsh725b14_ESO‌ are onto a similar idea. It sounds like something really interesting that might get buried in this thread. Would either of you care to start a thread like "New Alliance War Skill Lines to Address PvP/PvE Balance" or something like that? Not that I wouldn't like to see it discussed in this thread, but it seems like it could be a great independent topic as well and might get more attention/traction that way.

tinythinker

fredarbonab14_ESO wrote: »

^^^ Bright thinking! Only active in PvP areas, excellent.

Yeah I initially thought about a vaguely similar idea -- having some class abilities work differently in PvE vs. PvP -- but realized very quickly that it would be confusing to players and a coding nightmare. The general idea of new Alliance War skill lines is sound on the surface, but to get attention or traction it will need to have at least some rough sketch or potential examples of abilities and how they would mitigate some of the imbalance and abuses of class abilities. And it is more of a long range fix as well, so smaller suggested changes are also needed.

TheAmu

The problem with allowing every class to wear every armour and wield every weapon is that you create virtually infinite variables.

The problem with infinite variables is that there will always be the most ideal variables and the least ideal, for any given situation.

The problem with this game is, there is only one given situation:

Fight.

All progress in the game is made through fighting. You can't traverse the land without fighting. If you want to focus on crafting you'd better be good at fighting the things that give you the things you need to craft. You also need to be good at fighting to get the skill points necessary to level those crafting skills.

Basically you can "play how you want" so long as you want to fight while you play.

If you're having trouble following what I'm saying you can look at it this way;

You have access to 100 skills and you can pick 5. There will always, always, always be 5 particular skills that are the best. The best for what? Well, currently, these 5 skills make you the best at fighting. Because that's the only focus of the game.

My solution to this problem is:

Provide more ways to play the game. Isn't that what the game boasted in the first place?

Skyrim offered multiple paths to any goal. There was the stealth option, the fight your way through option, the speech option, the "Sure I'll work with you - just kidding ha ha! *stab*" option...there were just many unique ways to play the game and feel that your character was making progress and developing.

ESO needs to provide more ways for characters to develop and progress.

Crafting quests that award skill points.

A legitimate stealth option to quests which would ordinarily force you to fight. Maybe points into stealth also affect how effective disguises are.

A genuine speech skill tree for those who prefer to fast talk their way out of trouble. Maybe unless you get the jump on mobs, or you storm in there throwing fireballs at everything, mobs capable of understanding speech rush up to you and you activate your "Deadly Wit!" skill, utterly bewildering them into leaving you alone.

In the end, if you provide only one goal, too many variables becomes unmanageable in trying to achieve balance. If you provide three or 4 goals, you dramatically reduce the number of variables without compromising the options we've already enjoyed.

But it would take a bold Game Dev team indeed to produce an MMO that wasn't all about having a hotbar with skills and using those skills to fight things.

belvinopreub18_ESO

As a Templar who PVP and PVE i would be satisfied if they just help melee damage out some that will help everyone. Most of your power player that just *** and killing are staff wielding and kiting and that one of your only few options for getting through content.

Sindala

I remember an old discussion about 'how to balance PvP' from UO days.
We solved it too, much to the distress of the PvP'ers but they couldn't argue with the results.
In PvP every hit by every class....skill....special... ect, does exactly the same damage and takes the same time.
It's all just about looks and style then.

There....PvP problem solved.