Urvoth wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

"We've noticed the players have absolutely ruined Battlegrounds with their own behavior, so we're going to make that same behavior your only option. Have... fun?"

"We've noticed the majority of players don't want to run away from every fight to cap uncontested flags, so we implemented the gamemode that most people want."

By... taking away options from players.

How is *removing content* ever a good idea?

Prior to this change, objective players were arguing for the current system because "the BG pop is too small" when DM players were asking for a DM only queue. Well, this is what you get now. DM is a better mode with more dedicated BG players interested in playing it, so using the same objective player logic, we can't have an objective queue because "the BG pop is too small."

By the way, you don't have any options with the current system anyway. The gamemodes are random, there is no choice.

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

If you would have read my other comments on this thread you would know I am against this DM only thing,but I dont think PvE'ers have to be taken into consideration in this matter because Bgs are PvP and people have tons of options to lvl up alliance war skill line in other ways than Bg's.

jaws343 wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

Ehh, did we have it in a true/fair rotation though?

There was a reason that DM mode came up a lot in the random queue prior to removing the individual mode queues. Because more players would individually queue for DM and the random queue would fill holes. More players did DM which made DM occur more in the random.

Now, there are 5 gamemodes that the random queue chooses from, and only 1 of them is DM. The rest are all objective based.

So they took a player base that apparently prefered DM modes, to the point that they appeared far more often than the 4 other modes, and they forced that player base into a queue that heavily favored non DM modes, with only a 20% chance to get a non objective game.

So no, DM is not in the rotation fairly. Now, if they weighted Deathmatch at 50% and the other game modes at 16 each%, then maybe it would be fair. Giving DM a 50% chance to show and objective a 50% chance to show.

Or just add in 3 new DM variations. Something to even the chances of getting actual DM modes and objective modes.

Because right now, it just isn't working. And the objective modes are mostly nonsense be design.

jaws343 wrote: »

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

jaws343 wrote: »

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

Minarah wrote: »

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

jaws343 wrote: »

Minarah wrote: »

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

People still trying to convince PVP players that capture the flag doesn't take strategy... please stop.

When players actually demonstrate their strategy in capture the flag and it turns out to simply be respawning endlessly.

And deathmatch strategy is just high burst / proc sets that people can't defend against.

Trying to invalidate a game mode due to the met

GuildedLilly wrote: »

I'm finding it rather comical when certain PVPers in this thread are acting like PVErs should have no say in how we're able to level and access skill lines that ZOS chose to lock behind the Alliance War (while allowing BGs to level Alliance war), or that PVErs shouldn't have a say in what happens in PVP zones period--especially considering complaints from the PVP community are CONSTANTLY affecting PVE players in PVE zones.

*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP
*Dragonknight Wings were killed because of PVP
*Breath of Life was nerfed because of PVP
*Proximity Detonation was nerfed because of PVP
*Sorc shield/ward skills were nerfed because of PVP

...and that's just off the top of my head.

PVPers upset with how they died, or upset with NOT causing other players to die fast enough for their egos cause no end of grief for PVE players. Instead of giving sets & skills separate or dampened effects in PVP zones like they do with chain, gate, and healing skills, ZOS took the complaints from a few whiny players and gankblades upset that they got killed with their own reflected arrows, and wreck sets & skills that were fabulous in vet dungeons and trials because a few players or guilds were exploiting them in PVP--or they were too effective at countering PVPers who got used to easy kills with no risk. I LOVED popping DK wings to take out stealthed NBs sniping my team from inaccessible areas.

Stop pretending that what happens in PVP doesn't effect PVE, and is none of our business. The day ZOS brings Warhorn, Barrier, Rapid Maneuvers, Major Gallop, Magicka Detonation, and Caltrops (the only readily accessible aoe CC skill available to Templars) out from behind the Alliance War lock, and the moment they stop screwing with set effects and skills that affect PVE to appease PVPers, is the day I will acknowledge you have a point. Until then--everything that happens in PVP affects us. PVErs have no choice but to participate in PVP to some extent. We should have a voice in it, and your opinion is NOT the only one that matters.

You wanted the DM BG queue back? Congrats, you got it.

There is no reason why Objective BG queues needed to be removed.

There is no reason why ZOS continues to cater to greifers when it comes to PVP events requiring IC (not Cyrodil), or the elimination of all objective BG match queues in favor of forcing all players into DM BG matches only....other that for whatever reason, ZOS has decided it likes feeding trolls.

It's just one more insult in a loooooong line of ways in which a small, toxic fraction of the already small PVP community manages to screw over the majority of players with ZOS's full complicity and support.

I agree there should be two seperate ques. Deathmatch que and then the objective game modes.

If they ever wanted to redesign objective modes to be more PvP focused that'd be great to rope PvPers back in. But I dont think its worth it.

If folks arent aware, the game has steered to supply content for casual gamers since around Morrowind, and its done it very very well. Its a phenomenal game for new players coming in or casual players overall.

A lot of people seem to miss the PvP crowd is not amongst this market. So the Battlegrounds have caused a conflict. Objective game modes are not PvP friendly. If you *really* wanted to win most of the objective modes, you would just make full 100% tank characters. You could have a team of 4 of them, and you'd be widely successful in every game mode. You can do no damage, pay no attention to whats coming, and just tank and heal yourself and walk towards the objective.

This is why it's not really PvP friendly. Real 'tank' players in PvP are generally filling a supportive role in their build. But a bold majority of tanks are just building their builds around staying alive and nothing else. And many still fail to do it.

All in all, this thread is a demonstration of 2 markets. PvP players that are still around and have played the game. The other is a casual market - and I dont say that in a negative tone. But what they want out of their gameplay experience is completely different. 2 ques will be the solution ultimately.

On a side note, I skimmed and saw this: "*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP"

Earthgore was broken by a long shot and it wasnt even close. If you need a 2 piece set that will AOE burst heal your party to full constantly whenever youre slipping youre not even interested in trying in your video game. You actively want every mistake covered. Unfortunately, this is the market thats been put together here.

This test will see a dip on PC marketbase when New World drops. A lot of the PvP community is fed up trying to fight against this mindset.

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