Upcoming Changes to Battleground Queues

Franchise408 · September 2021

Urvoth wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

Urvoth wrote: »

MasterSpatula wrote: »

"We've noticed the players have absolutely ruined Battlegrounds with their own behavior, so we're going to make that same behavior your only option. Have... fun?"

"We've noticed the majority of players don't want to run away from every fight to cap uncontested flags, so we implemented the gamemode that most people want."

By... taking away options from players.

How is *removing content* ever a good idea?

Prior to this change, objective players were arguing for the current system because "the BG pop is too small" when DM players were asking for a DM only queue. Well, this is what you get now. DM is a better mode with more dedicated BG players interested in playing it, so using the same objective player logic, we can't have an objective queue because "the BG pop is too small."

By the way, you don't have any options with the current system anyway. The gamemodes are random, there is no choice.

So no other reason other than vengeance?

Doesn't seem like a good reason for a change to me.

P.S.: This isn't what "I get now"... I never asked for queues to be taken away.

The queues never should have changed from what they were in the first place, which was separate queues for each match type (deathmatch, flag games, capture games), and a random that includes any of them.

There is 0 data to collect. Simply go back to what it was and let people queue for whatever BG they want. If the queue is slightly longer, so be it. I'll do some solo questing while I am waiting. The queues were never even as bad as a DPS dungeon queue, so it's a very small price to pay to allow players to choose which battleground they want to play.

VaranisArano · September 2021

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Sorry, draft quote.

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I haven't been playing much lately, but this pretty much guarantees I won't be back any time soon.

As others have said: You're basically rewarding the petulant children for throwing tantrums (i.e. treating objective modes as deathmatch and ruining them for everyone else).

Also, the main reason avoiding combat is a winning strategy in objective modes is because the childish deathmatchers aren't playing the objectives. If they actually captured and held objectives instead of spawn camping or gathering in the middle of the map, they might actually win.

Strange how much toxicity there is here by players who are against this change toward players who prefer Deathmatch.

Not surprising at all, when you consider that ZOS effectively said they are making the change because "we’ve now seen an uptick in players choosing to treat any game mode as Deathmatch."

I'd guess that nearly every regular BG player has dealt with the players who treat any game mode as a Deathmatch, when it's not. We've won games because someone on the other team decided to not play the objectives and go for kills instead. We've lost games when someone on our team decided to ignore the objectives and go for kills instead.

Now, folks can justify that however they like. Deathmatch is "real" PVP! Yay! Playing the objective is avoiding PVP! Boo!

But what it comes down to is that teammates who treat objective-based modes like a Deathmatch are frequently a detriment to the team's chances of winning. Why on earth wouldn't you expect that to create resentment from your teammates who are playing the mode properly?

If you prefer Deathmatch, but you played the objective modes properly, then I don't think folks are complaining about you.

If you prefer deathmatch and played objective modes like it was deathmatch, and thus were a detriment to your team's chances of victory...yeah, folks don't like that behavior. It's not toxic to tell you so.

(As an aside, I am strongly reminded of the PVE debate over Fake Tanks and Fake Healers, and how defensive some people are over their right to queue as a role they do not intend to fulfill even when it's been explained that by doing so, they place a greater burden on their random teammates.)

The reality is, the folks who prefer death match have had to deal with months of being able to play their preferred game mode 20% of the time at best. (And based on some data gathered by a few players, perhaps it has somehow worked out to significantly less than 20%). ZOS is throwing death match players of bone, and letting them play their preferred mode for awhile. Short of a complete rework of the queue system, I think this is a fair, quick, and temporary solution for a significant portion of the battlegrounds population that has been seriously underserved for an extended period of time.

I don't even mind that ZOS is temporarily trying Deathmatch-only, so long as they acknowledge the achievements and style pages they are putting "on hold" for the time being. Battlegrounds has struggled for population really since launch (for a lot of reasons) and this is far from the first test ZOS has done to try to revive it. By all means, ZOS should test this idea.

But I'm not surprised by the criticism I see here. Not when ZOS acknowledged that a fair portion of why they are doing it is because a certain segment of Deathmatch fans would rather kill than focus on the objectives, even when it makes for a worse experience for their team as a whole.

Now their teammates are doubly losing to those folks: first by having to put up with an uptick in teammates who were refusing to play the objectives, and now by losing their ability to play objective modes at all.

That can't feel good. So no, I'm not surprised to see some backlash to ZOS deciding that because some players chose to treat every game like it was Deathmatch, the correct answer is to make every game a Deathmatch.

Again, there's nothing wrong with preferring Deathmatch. If you were a player who prefers Deathmatch but played the objective modes as designed, I don't think people are complaining about those players.

jaws343 · September 2021

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

Ehh, did we have it in a true/fair rotation though?

There was a reason that DM mode came up a lot in the random queue prior to removing the individual mode queues. Because more players would individually queue for DM and the random queue would fill holes. More players did DM which made DM occur more in the random.

Now, there are 5 gamemodes that the random queue chooses from, and only 1 of them is DM. The rest are all objective based.

So they took a player base that apparently prefered DM modes, to the point that they appeared far more often than the 4 other modes, and they forced that player base into a queue that heavily favored non DM modes, with only a 20% chance to get a non objective game.

So no, DM is not in the rotation fairly. Now, if they weighted Deathmatch at 50% and the other game modes at 16 each%, then maybe it would be fair. Giving DM a 50% chance to show and objective a 50% chance to show.

Or just add in 3 new DM variations. Something to even the chances of getting actual DM modes and objective modes.

Because right now, it just isn't working. And the objective modes are mostly nonsense be design.

Lauranae · September 2021

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

If you would have read my other comments on this thread you would know I am against this DM only thing,but I dont think PvE'ers have to be taken into consideration in this matter because Bgs are PvP and people have tons of options to lvl up alliance war skill line in other ways than Bg's.

If pvers have no word to say concerning BG, then WHY does PVP rules everything happening in PVE ?
Pvp are not happy so they are deciding that we pvers have nothing to do in BG

No one can even imagine that some of us pvers simply enjoy doing those little match pvp ? Its different from cyro and IC. Its the place where i can learn way more than in cyro. I dont need to be number one to enjoy it. And yes i was loving Chaos, relics as i already said.
I also did enjoy DM, a lot, i could progress, BUT only when i was not facing those bulldozer killers in a premade team. When facing those i could only progress my number of deaths.

Now, they closed the door. Reading the comments here, i feel more like Elitist killers will be now deciding all.

And actually, near to my 70, i am raging against that decision. ESO is creating a wall between the eso community, allowing elitist from all side to reign on the game, be in PVE or PVP. i just wonder if ESO is still ESO

wolfie1.0. · September 2021

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

If you would have read my other comments on this thread you would know I am against this DM only thing,but I dont think PvE'ers have to be taken into consideration in this matter because Bgs are PvP and people have tons of options to lvl up alliance war skill line in other ways than Bg's.

I did read and understand your other comments regarding Deathmatch. I am sorry if my point was missed. The one i take issue with is the one about PVE'rs and how they choose to level Alliance skills. Yes, there are other options for leveling the skill. I was just pointing out that there ARE other options for people that just love to get kills in Deathmatch mode BG's. that really was my point.

The reasons a player consumes content doesn't invalidate their opinion or feedback on the matter. whether its just to try out said content, complete an endeavor, transmute stones, style pages, to be the king of BG's, to own other players, or just to have fun. Feedback from ALL players should be had, even players that DON'T currently run BG's, because the underlying reasons why they don't matter as well.

i think a better test of the system would be to just allow people the option to queue for Deathmatch BG's alone, and then remove DM from the random rotation.

Dragonlord573 · September 2021

This is an awful idea. Not only are you making it impossible to get 2 entire styles for an undetermined amount of time, you're also pushing away a large portion of the BG community. I absolutely hate Team Deathmatch because if my opponents have higher damage there is no way to recover from it. In Capture The Relic, Crazy King, Domination, and Chaos Ball I can turn a sour match around with proper coordination and a little luck. But when faced with people with a combination of high damage and defense that are stomping everyone else there is no way to recover from it. Just because the silent majority didn't open their mouths doesn't mean that the actual majority likes Team Deathmatch. And with Dark Convergence spam what is left of the playerbase is going to die out even quicker bar a few masochists.

wolfie1.0. · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

Ehh, did we have it in a true/fair rotation though?

There was a reason that DM mode came up a lot in the random queue prior to removing the individual mode queues. Because more players would individually queue for DM and the random queue would fill holes. More players did DM which made DM occur more in the random.

Now, there are 5 gamemodes that the random queue chooses from, and only 1 of them is DM. The rest are all objective based.

So they took a player base that apparently prefered DM modes, to the point that they appeared far more often than the 4 other modes, and they forced that player base into a queue that heavily favored non DM modes, with only a 20% chance to get a non objective game.

So no, DM is not in the rotation fairly. Now, if they weighted Deathmatch at 50% and the other game modes at 16 each%, then maybe it would be fair. Giving DM a 50% chance to show and objective a 50% chance to show.

Or just add in 3 new DM variations. Something to even the chances of getting actual DM modes and objective modes.

Because right now, it just isn't working. And the objective modes are mostly nonsense be design.

You have a good point, in that it was a change. I understand it. But removing everything BUT DM goes too far in the opposite way. I got into BG's more because of the rotation of the objective based matches and I disagree that they were nonsense. I enjoy them more than DM rounds. so while I get the point that DM wasn't showing up as often as people wanted, how exactly is it fair in ANY way that my preferred play mode goes from likely to none for an unknown period of time? I would be OK if there was an end date for this test, but that wasn't included which means that my preferred format is now completely dead.

So what do i DO instead? what are my options here? I have no recourse here. Like i said in previous post. they should have just allowed players to queue for DM's and let the randoms roll with either DM removed, or as the status qou.

jaws343 · September 2021

Lauranae wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

wtlonewolf20 wrote: »

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

GuildedLilly wrote: »

One aspect I think hasn't been discussed yet on this thread is PVErs who want to tank or heal MUST do PVP to unlock Warhorn, Barrier, and to a lesser extent caltrops for additional tank CC (I don't hate dark convergence for this reason. Tanks have been begging for an aoe taunt for YEARS-- and not everyone wants to play as a perma-WW tank with tormentor. DC isn't a taunt, but it's an amazing CC without the massive resource drain of silver leashing & chaining everything, or running around stabbing everything with pierce armor/ ransack--it also helps us stack mobs nice and neat for our groups in dungeons and trials to melt them down)

The most efficient way to level Alliance skills lines is the daily bonus BGs--specifically, objective based BGs where we stand a chance of our teams placing 1st or 2nd.

I've noticed a lot of comments from PVPers who are happy DM queue is returning and mocking PVErs with the equivalent of 'git gud', or, if you're not a real PVPer, and don't want to PVP, GTFO. The fact is: many PVErs DON'T want to be in PVP areas to begin with-- We HAVE to be for 2 out of 3 battle roles, and during events, because otherwise needed skills are locked away, and we can't get event rewards--which AREN'T just for PVP events-- they're quarterly. We could be collecting fragments for MONTHS, only to get screwed on the final piece we need because yet again, ZOS is forcing us into IC instead of letting us go to Cyrodil, or converting all BGs to DM.

--BTW ZOS-- don't think I didn't notice the dates of the open ended BG experiment will most likely coicide with the next event and possibly the one after. If tickets are PVP, and tied to IC or BGs, you've effectively given your PVE players no way to avoid feeding trolls.

Look: I get PVP DM fans are happy the DM Queue is returning. Honestly, I'm happy for you. You deserve to have your DM queue back. I know this was something the death squads have been wanting for quite a while. There's just no good reason why ZOS chose to REMOVE the other battle modes as well.

Getting trolled by DM fans teabagging dead PVErs who just want to get Warhorn/Barrier, or event tickets doesn't encourage us to play PVP. It reminds us of all the reasons we HATE IT. Being taunted to 'git gud' at a game mode we despise and are FORCED to play to be effective in PVE as tanks and healers doesn't encourage us either.

I expect to die in PVP. Not all my characters are geared for it, and I hate it, so why bother wasting materials golding out new sets when I'm just there for Warhonr/Barrier, and event tickets? Why bother with the expense of re-speccing my entire character's attribute points, skill points, and CP just so that the 15min I spend in PVP that day won't suck *quite* as badly-- while I've effectively gimped myself for the play-style I actually enjoy and spend the most time with? I'm okay with dying--I try not to, and I go down swinging as best I can--but if someone good at & geared for PVP turns me into little gibblets, so be it.

What I can't stand is the constant teabagging from some BG teams, and the troll behavior. If it wasn't for the teababbing trolls and the teams who treat every BG like DM, PVP in BGs is actually kinda fun. My preference is the objective games, but even DM isn't too awful if no one's being a trolling, teabagging, toxic bully. Those players spoil it for the rest of us-- and now ZOS has effectively given them open season.

I won't be playing BGs for the duration of their experiment. When at all possible, I prefer not to feed the trolls.

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

And PVPers that like Deathmatch game mode had it in a rotation of game modes that they could play. they ALSO could go run around in Cryo and IC looking for fights to get their kills.

If you would have read my other comments on this thread you would know I am against this DM only thing,but I dont think PvE'ers have to be taken into consideration in this matter because Bgs are PvP and people have tons of options to lvl up alliance war skill line in other ways than Bg's.

If pvers have no word to say concerning BG, then WHY does PVP rules everything happening in PVE ?
Pvp are not happy so they are deciding that we pvers have nothing to do in BG

No one can even imagine that some of us pvers simply enjoy doing those little match pvp ? Its different from cyro and IC. Its the place where i can learn way more than in cyro. I dont need to be number one to enjoy it. And yes i was loving Chaos, relics as i already said.
I also did enjoy DM, a lot, i could progress, BUT only when i was not facing those bulldozer killers in a premade team. When facing those i could only progress my number of deaths.

Now, they closed the door. Reading the comments here, i feel more like Elitist killers will be now deciding all.

And actually, near to my 70, i am raging against that decision. ESO is creating a wall between the eso community, allowing elitist from all side to reign on the game, be in PVE or PVP. i just wonder if ESO is still ESO

Joining the queue against Pre-made teams was a choice. The solo queue is right there and will pit you against non pre-made teams.

But I also agree that PVE centered complaints/feedback regarding BGs is mostly irrelevant. This is a PVP mode. Not a mode to use as a stepping stone for a skill line. And it should not be designed to cater to players who have no interest in PVP fights.

Franchise408 · September 2021

People love saying that "Team Deathmatch takes skill and coordination and strategy because X, Y, Z" but are neglecting the fact that Captures and Flag games take coordination and strategy as well.

While it may be disliked, tanking flag locations is a strategy. Having heavy burst that can't be recovered from or defended against is a valid strategy, but tanking up to defend against that... isn't? Absolutely false. If high burst and proc setups are valid gameplay, then so are high health, high resistance tanky setups to defend against it.

PVP simply means "player versus player". It does not mean "killing". PVP is any capacity where you are going against other people, so saying that "capture games discourage PVP because you aren't fighting as frequently" is a false statement. It is *encouraging* a different form of PVP. One that takes tactics and coordination over brute strength. One is not better than the other, they are different equals.

Killing other players is not required for PVP. The only thing that is required is playing against human opponents.

Battlegrounds are like the sports of the ESO world, and as there are different sports in real life, there will be different battleground sports in ESO as well. Some will require brute strength (deathmatch), others will require a different set of skills and tactics, like flag and capture games.

The fact remains, content is being removed to placate the griefers who were not playing the game as intended. A large motivation for people not playing the game as intended was due to the fact that their *option* to join the game they wanted specifically was removed, when it never should have been.

The solution was to re-add the queues for the individual games. If it creates a slightly longer queue wait time, so be it. BG queues were never so bad as to even equal the wait times of DPS dungeon queues, so the split queues in this instance are not a valid argument against the return of the individual game style queues.

Instead, they went the route of actually removing content.

While DM gamers cite their 20% chance at getting a DM game, there is now a 0% chance for non-DM gamers to get their preferred game. So this is not an equal circumstance. Removing content is never the solution. Never never never.

The fix is simple. Return the separate game mode queues and call it a day. I don't know why ZOS is over-complicating this. There is literally only 1 correct answer.

Minarah · September 2021

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

FENGRUSH · September 2021

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

jaws343 · September 2021

Minarah wrote: »

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

WolfStar07 · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

Unfortunately, it cannot take into account the people who were already turned away by players treating every game like DM. That is valid data as well.

WolfStar07 · September 2021

Lady_Galadhiel wrote: »

Oh comon PvE'ers have 2 Midyear Mayhem with double ap plus war torte to level up the skill line very quickly.They dont really need Bg's for it.

So people should only try to level those skill lines twice a year and just let the needed skills remain locked until then? If bg's weren't intended to allow people another way to level alliance skills outside Cyrodiil, ZOS could've very well excluded it.

Füßchen · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

OR they could do two queues. One for DM only and one for the other game modes and see what happens then.
So the players who don't play Battlegrounds atm because they're only interested in DMs would probably queue again and the players who don't do them because everything gets treated as DM could return too.
If they do it like they've done the dungeons where you can chose several specific ones and get one of them at random, it would work for people who don't care at all too.

I know that I won't do battlegrounds while there is DM only. It can be fun occasionally, but mostly I'm glad when it's one of the other game modes.

Franchise408 · September 2021

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

People still trying to convince PVP players that capture the flag doesn't take strategy... please stop.

VaranisArano · September 2021

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

Just because the strategies are not particularly interesting to players who just want "good fights" does not mean that there isn't strategy to objective-based games.

I see the same tension in Cyrodiil whenever PvDoor comes up. When one is playing for the objectives of Cyrodiil, PvDoor makes sense because it's an efficient way to capture an objective and get points for one's faction. Of course, for the "I just want good fights" crowd, PvDoor is bad because it's deliberately avoiding a "good fight" in favor of efficiently racking up the score.

At the end of the 15 minutes, BGs determines who won or lost based on the team score. In objective matches, that's about who efficiently did the objectives. And when one or more players ditches the effective strategies for the objectives in favor of using much less effective strategies - treating the game like its a deathmatch - the team suffers for it on the scoreboard.

And so I see that element of "avoiding a "good fight" in favor of the objective or maximizing score is bad" reflected in this BG conversation as well as in Cyrodiil. Likewise, I see the converse that "focusing on "good fights" to the detriment of the team and the ultimate objective is bad" argued in both BGs and Cyrodiil.

It's remarkably subjective depending on how you like to play PVP. Cyrodiil has room for both types of players pursuing both types of strategies. It remains to be seen if Battlegrounds does.

jaws343 · September 2021

WolfStar07 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

Unfortunately, it cannot take into account the people who were already turned away by players treating every game like DM. That is valid data as well.

Is it though?

In each gamemode:

Relic: Players Deathmatching this mode would have to do it either at an enemy relic, at their own relic, or in between relics. So technically, they are playing the game mode by defending their relic, preventing another team from getting to their relic, or preventing another team from taking an opponents relic. They just aren't capturing relics themselves. But neither is that 50K health tank sitting on the relic for 15 minutes preventing everyone from taking it.

Chaos Ball: The objective is to kill other players. So DM players DMing here is the point. The problem with this mode, imo, is that it is horribly balanced in favor of unkillable builds, and one team will often hold for the entire match with almost no chance of actually getting the ball from them.

Domination/Crazy king: If DM players are fighting on flags, they are doing the game mode properly, or at least they are preventing teams from taking those flags with no resistance, as well as tying up a team in a fight, preventing them from capturing flags. Which is also kind of the point.

So players who left the game modes because other players were going for kills speaks volumes already. These are pvp zones and the intention is that things are contested and players kill each other. That isn't for everyone, and that is fine.

Franchise408 · September 2021

Minarah wrote: »

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

Unfortunately, I've noticed a widespread, long running trend of the player base being treated poorly by ZOS, in many different avenues.

It goes hand in hand with many of the complaints that followed Fallout 76.

It's a shame, because I love their products (Elder Scrolls series, Fallout series, ESO), and in some ways, I actually even commend ZOS' business model, but some of the ways they treat their player base is very disheartening.

FENGRUSH · September 2021

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

People still trying to convince PVP players that capture the flag doesn't take strategy... please stop.

When players actually demonstrate their strategy in capture the flag and it turns out to simply be respawning endlessly.

colossalvoids · September 2021

jaws343 wrote: »

Minarah wrote: »

So the issue is people playing deathmatch in other game modes?
And the solution is just to remove all other game modes?

If people treat other game modes as death match, the ones that DO play objectives win the game.
I really don't see how this is an issue.
And even if it is, this is the worst possible solution.
You guys are rewarding bad behaviour and punishing those of us who like to play objectives, even though we did no wrong in this scenario.

Just feels so bad to be treated like this.

It's fairly easy to see what this test is intending to do.

Zos is seeing that a lot of players are ignoring objectives and playing DM in every mode. Which leads to the hypothesis that more players want DM than they want the objective modes. So they are removing all objective modes to determine if the player loss with the removal of the modes is significant.

So likely, this test provides one of three scenarios:

1) A small amount of players stop playing the game mode, but nothing significant for concern.
This would likely lead them to just permantently removing the objective modes because the effort to improve them or maintain them just wouldn't be worth it.

2) An increase in players, due to players returning to play DM who disliked the frequency of objective modes, or objective modes altogether.
Likely would result in the same as 1.

3) A substantial decrease in player count.
This would likely lead them to adding back in the game modes but adjusting the queues in some way to provide non objective players a better avenue than a 20% chance at getting the only game mode they want.

There's actually no chances of them removing any modes at all, at the very best for the deathmatch community would be a rework of sorts but still nothing huge. There's achievements and collectibles related to specific modes, it's not in zos nature to just outright delete player achievements and stuff.

Franchise408 · September 2021

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

People still trying to convince PVP players that capture the flag doesn't take strategy... please stop.

When players actually demonstrate their strategy in capture the flag and it turns out to simply be respawning endlessly.

And deathmatch strategy is just high burst / proc sets that people can't defend against.

GuildedLilly · September 2021

I'm finding it rather comical when certain PVPers in this thread are acting like PVErs should have no say in how we're able to level and access skill lines that ZOS chose to lock behind the Alliance War (while allowing BGs to level Alliance war), or that PVErs shouldn't have a say in what happens in PVP zones period--especially considering complaints from the PVP community are CONSTANTLY affecting PVE players in PVE zones.

*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP
*Dragonknight Wings were killed because of PVP
*Breath of Life was nerfed because of PVP
*Proximity Detonation was nerfed because of PVP
*Sorc shield/ward skills were nerfed because of PVP

...and that's just off the top of my head.

PVPers upset with how they died, or upset with NOT causing other players to die fast enough for their egos cause no end of grief for PVE players. Instead of giving sets & skills separate or dampened effects in PVP zones like they do with chain, gate, and healing skills, ZOS took the complaints from a few whiny players and gankblades upset that they got killed with their own reflected arrows, and wreck sets & skills that were fabulous in vet dungeons and trials because a few players or guilds were exploiting them in PVP--or they were too effective at countering PVPers who got used to easy kills with no risk. I LOVED popping DK wings to take out stealthed NBs sniping my team from inaccessible areas.

Stop pretending that what happens in PVP doesn't effect PVE, and is none of our business. The day ZOS brings Warhorn, Barrier, Rapid Maneuvers, Major Gallop, Magicka Detonation, and Caltrops (the only readily accessible aoe CC skill available to Templars) out from behind the Alliance War lock, and the moment they stop screwing with set effects and skills that affect PVE to appease PVPers, is the day I will acknowledge you have a point. Until then--everything that happens in PVP affects us. PVErs have no choice but to participate in PVP to some extent. We should have a voice in it, and your opinion is NOT the only one that matters.

You wanted the DM BG queue back? Congrats, you got it.

There is no reason why Objective BG queues needed to be removed.

There is no reason why ZOS continues to cater to greifers when it comes to PVP events requiring IC (not Cyrodil), or the elimination of all objective BG match queues in favor of forcing all players into DM BG matches only....other that for whatever reason, ZOS has decided it likes feeding trolls.

It's just one more insult in a loooooong line of ways in which a small, toxic fraction of the already small PVP community manages to screw over the majority of players with ZOS's full complicity and support.

FENGRUSH · September 2021

GuildedLilly wrote: »

I'm finding it rather comical when certain PVPers in this thread are acting like PVErs should have no say in how we're able to level and access skill lines that ZOS chose to lock behind the Alliance War (while allowing BGs to level Alliance war), or that PVErs shouldn't have a say in what happens in PVP zones period--especially considering complaints from the PVP community are CONSTANTLY affecting PVE players in PVE zones.

*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP
*Dragonknight Wings were killed because of PVP
*Breath of Life was nerfed because of PVP
*Proximity Detonation was nerfed because of PVP
*Sorc shield/ward skills were nerfed because of PVP

...and that's just off the top of my head.

PVPers upset with how they died, or upset with NOT causing other players to die fast enough for their egos cause no end of grief for PVE players. Instead of giving sets & skills separate or dampened effects in PVP zones like they do with chain, gate, and healing skills, ZOS took the complaints from a few whiny players and gankblades upset that they got killed with their own reflected arrows, and wreck sets & skills that were fabulous in vet dungeons and trials because a few players or guilds were exploiting them in PVP--or they were too effective at countering PVPers who got used to easy kills with no risk. I LOVED popping DK wings to take out stealthed NBs sniping my team from inaccessible areas.

Stop pretending that what happens in PVP doesn't effect PVE, and is none of our business. The day ZOS brings Warhorn, Barrier, Rapid Maneuvers, Major Gallop, Magicka Detonation, and Caltrops (the only readily accessible aoe CC skill available to Templars) out from behind the Alliance War lock, and the moment they stop screwing with set effects and skills that affect PVE to appease PVPers, is the day I will acknowledge you have a point. Until then--everything that happens in PVP affects us. PVErs have no choice but to participate in PVP to some extent. We should have a voice in it, and your opinion is NOT the only one that matters.

You wanted the DM BG queue back? Congrats, you got it.

There is no reason why Objective BG queues needed to be removed.

There is no reason why ZOS continues to cater to greifers when it comes to PVP events requiring IC (not Cyrodil), or the elimination of all objective BG match queues in favor of forcing all players into DM BG matches only....other that for whatever reason, ZOS has decided it likes feeding trolls.

It's just one more insult in a loooooong line of ways in which a small, toxic fraction of the already small PVP community manages to screw over the majority of players with ZOS's full complicity and support.

I agree there should be two seperate ques. Deathmatch que and then the objective game modes.

If they ever wanted to redesign objective modes to be more PvP focused that'd be great to rope PvPers back in. But I dont think its worth it.

If folks arent aware, the game has steered to supply content for casual gamers since around Morrowind, and its done it very very well. Its a phenomenal game for new players coming in or casual players overall.

A lot of people seem to miss the PvP crowd is not amongst this market. So the Battlegrounds have caused a conflict. Objective game modes are not PvP friendly. If you *really* wanted to win most of the objective modes, you would just make full 100% tank characters. You could have a team of 4 of them, and you'd be widely successful in every game mode. You can do no damage, pay no attention to whats coming, and just tank and heal yourself and walk towards the objective.

This is why it's not really PvP friendly. Real 'tank' players in PvP are generally filling a supportive role in their build. But a bold majority of tanks are just building their builds around staying alive and nothing else. And many still fail to do it.

All in all, this thread is a demonstration of 2 markets. PvP players that are still around and have played the game. The other is a casual market - and I dont say that in a negative tone. But what they want out of their gameplay experience is completely different. 2 ques will be the solution ultimately.

On a side note, I skimmed and saw this: "*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP"

Earthgore was broken by a long shot and it wasnt even close. If you need a 2 piece set that will AOE burst heal your party to full constantly whenever youre slipping youre not even interested in trying in your video game. You actively want every mistake covered. Unfortunately, this is the market thats been put together here.

This test will see a dip on PC marketbase when New World drops. A lot of the PvP community is fed up trying to fight against this mindset.

Franchise408 · September 2021

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

Franchise408 wrote: »

FENGRUSH wrote: »

People still trying to convince PvP players that capture the flag takes strategy... please stop.

People still trying to convince PVP players that capture the flag doesn't take strategy... please stop.

When players actually demonstrate their strategy in capture the flag and it turns out to simply be respawning endlessly.

And deathmatch strategy is just high burst / proc sets that people can't defend against.

Trying to invalidate a game mode due to the met

GuildedLilly wrote: »

I'm finding it rather comical when certain PVPers in this thread are acting like PVErs should have no say in how we're able to level and access skill lines that ZOS chose to lock behind the Alliance War (while allowing BGs to level Alliance war), or that PVErs shouldn't have a say in what happens in PVP zones period--especially considering complaints from the PVP community are CONSTANTLY affecting PVE players in PVE zones.

*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP
*Dragonknight Wings were killed because of PVP
*Breath of Life was nerfed because of PVP
*Proximity Detonation was nerfed because of PVP
*Sorc shield/ward skills were nerfed because of PVP

...and that's just off the top of my head.

PVPers upset with how they died, or upset with NOT causing other players to die fast enough for their egos cause no end of grief for PVE players. Instead of giving sets & skills separate or dampened effects in PVP zones like they do with chain, gate, and healing skills, ZOS took the complaints from a few whiny players and gankblades upset that they got killed with their own reflected arrows, and wreck sets & skills that were fabulous in vet dungeons and trials because a few players or guilds were exploiting them in PVP--or they were too effective at countering PVPers who got used to easy kills with no risk. I LOVED popping DK wings to take out stealthed NBs sniping my team from inaccessible areas.

Stop pretending that what happens in PVP doesn't effect PVE, and is none of our business. The day ZOS brings Warhorn, Barrier, Rapid Maneuvers, Major Gallop, Magicka Detonation, and Caltrops (the only readily accessible aoe CC skill available to Templars) out from behind the Alliance War lock, and the moment they stop screwing with set effects and skills that affect PVE to appease PVPers, is the day I will acknowledge you have a point. Until then--everything that happens in PVP affects us. PVErs have no choice but to participate in PVP to some extent. We should have a voice in it, and your opinion is NOT the only one that matters.

You wanted the DM BG queue back? Congrats, you got it.

There is no reason why Objective BG queues needed to be removed.

There is no reason why ZOS continues to cater to greifers when it comes to PVP events requiring IC (not Cyrodil), or the elimination of all objective BG match queues in favor of forcing all players into DM BG matches only....other that for whatever reason, ZOS has decided it likes feeding trolls.

It's just one more insult in a loooooong line of ways in which a small, toxic fraction of the already small PVP community manages to screw over the majority of players with ZOS's full complicity and support.

I agree there should be two seperate ques. Deathmatch que and then the objective game modes.

If they ever wanted to redesign objective modes to be more PvP focused that'd be great to rope PvPers back in. But I dont think its worth it.

If folks arent aware, the game has steered to supply content for casual gamers since around Morrowind, and its done it very very well. Its a phenomenal game for new players coming in or casual players overall.

A lot of people seem to miss the PvP crowd is not amongst this market. So the Battlegrounds have caused a conflict. Objective game modes are not PvP friendly. If you *really* wanted to win most of the objective modes, you would just make full 100% tank characters. You could have a team of 4 of them, and you'd be widely successful in every game mode. You can do no damage, pay no attention to whats coming, and just tank and heal yourself and walk towards the objective.

This is why it's not really PvP friendly. Real 'tank' players in PvP are generally filling a supportive role in their build. But a bold majority of tanks are just building their builds around staying alive and nothing else. And many still fail to do it.

All in all, this thread is a demonstration of 2 markets. PvP players that are still around and have played the game. The other is a casual market - and I dont say that in a negative tone. But what they want out of their gameplay experience is completely different. 2 ques will be the solution ultimately.

On a side note, I skimmed and saw this: "*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP"

Earthgore was broken by a long shot and it wasnt even close. If you need a 2 piece set that will AOE burst heal your party to full constantly whenever youre slipping youre not even interested in trying in your video game. You actively want every mistake covered. Unfortunately, this is the market thats been put together here.

This test will see a dip on PC marketbase when New World drops. A lot of the PvP community is fed up trying to fight against this mindset.

To bolded: But that's exactly what is happening when people say that objective games take no strategy.

Deathmatch either has strategy or it doesn't, but it doesn't have any more or less strategy than capture games, it just has different strategy.

Aldoss · September 2021

So much incredible toxicity coming from people who clearly only participate in BGs because of the rewards and not because of the actual content. The BG community literally doesn't care at all about the rewards or the titles or the styles. We just like the content.

Yesterday I was booted from a NORMAL random dungeon because I was only my 23k hp stamplar as a tank from a dungeon that I can SOLO almost as fast as when I'm in a group or not to mention that I PvE main tank and have nearly every trifecta title. Talk about elitism, it goes both ways.

I guess I'm just flabbergasted at the people completely disregarding the unbelievable skill of BGers as if it were a bad thing. Calling them "griefers" because they can knock out people in one burst combo (that they spent years honing and refining) and also are difficult to kill (something they also spent years perfecting/finding a balance for and literally have to update EVERY PATCH to conform to the new meta). Is your argument seriously, "How dare you be so good at theory crafting a build AND executing it well!"?

PvP without people dying is not PvP, it's co-op.

If your build is designed around avoiding that concept, then you are just as much as guilty of griefing as someone who camps a spawn point (something most BG players actively avoid doing). Imagine a random BG of 12 BG tanks...

I should have screencapped it but last night one of my guildies was literally asking for someone to duo queue with his new toon TO AVOID GETTING LOW MMR PLAYERS. He said "I guess it was fun for the first two matches, but now it's just boring..."

I'll say it again, your quarrel is not with us BGers. Your quarrel is with ZOS. ZOS has the control to turn this content into something better and continues to prove that it values its casual PvE community more. How tragic that the one time they make a change that suits us, we get targeted and insulted for it.

Psiion · September 2021

Greetings all,

After removing a few non-constructive and Baiting posts, we would like to remind everyone to keep discussion within the ESO Forum's Community Rules. Baiting is against the Community Rules and generally not in the spirit of ESO or the Forums:

Trolling or Baiting: The act of trolling is defined as something that is created for the intent to provoke conflict, shock others, or to elicit a strong negative or emotional reaction. It’s okay and very normal to disagree with others, and even to debate, but provoking conflict, baiting, inciting, mocking, etc. is never acceptable in the official The Elder Scrolls Online community. If you do not have something constructive or meaningful to add to a discussion, we strongly recommend you refrain from posting in that thread, and find another discussion to participate in instead. It is also not constructive or helpful to publicly call out others and accuse them of trolling, or call them a troll—please refrain from doing so. If you genuinely believe someone is trolling, please report the post or thread to the ESO Team, and leave it at that.

Moving forward, please discussion respectful and keep the Community Rules in mind as well.

Alchimiste1 · September 2021

GuildedLilly wrote: »

I'm finding it rather comical when certain PVPers in this thread are acting like PVErs should have no say in how we're able to level and access skill lines that ZOS chose to lock behind the Alliance War (while allowing BGs to level Alliance war), or that PVErs shouldn't have a say in what happens in PVP zones period--especially considering complaints from the PVP community are CONSTANTLY affecting PVE players in PVE zones.

*Earthgore was nerfed into the ground because of PVP
*Dragonknight Wings were killed because of PVP
*Breath of Life was nerfed because of PVP
*Proximity Detonation was nerfed because of PVP
*Sorc shield/ward skills were nerfed because of PVP

...and that's just off the top of my head.

PVPers upset with how they died, or upset with NOT causing other players to die fast enough for their egos cause no end of grief for PVE players. Instead of giving sets & skills separate or dampened effects in PVP zones like they do with chain, gate, and healing skills, ZOS took the complaints from a few whiny players and gankblades upset that they got killed with their own reflected arrows, and wreck sets & skills that were fabulous in vet dungeons and trials because a few players or guilds were exploiting them in PVP--or they were too effective at countering PVPers who got used to easy kills with no risk. I LOVED popping DK wings to take out stealthed NBs sniping my team from inaccessible areas.

Stop pretending that what happens in PVP doesn't effect PVE, and is none of our business. The day ZOS brings Warhorn, Barrier, Rapid Maneuvers, Major Gallop, Magicka Detonation, and Caltrops (the only readily accessible aoe CC skill available to Templars) out from behind the Alliance War lock, and the moment they stop screwing with set effects and skills that affect PVE to appease PVPers, is the day I will acknowledge you have a point. Until then--everything that happens in PVP affects us. PVErs have no choice but to participate in PVP to some extent. We should have a voice in it, and your opinion is NOT the only one that matters.

You wanted the DM BG queue back? Congrats, you got it.

There is no reason why Objective BG queues needed to be removed.

There is no reason why ZOS continues to cater to greifers when it comes to PVP events requiring IC (not Cyrodil), or the elimination of all objective BG match queues in favor of forcing all players into DM BG matches only....other that for whatever reason, ZOS has decided it likes feeding trolls.

It's just one more insult in a loooooong line of ways in which a small, toxic fraction of the already small PVP community manages to screw over the majority of players with ZOS's full complicity and support.

* Earthgore was rightfully nerfed, it was broken in pvp and pve
* Wings ...well it was a class defining skill and fun to use yes but can't deny that it was broken
* Breath of life is still good
* Proxy det was rightfully nerfed, honestly unless you are in an end game pve guild it won't affect you, and if you are I'm sure chances are you can compensate.
* Sorc shields were uncritable which actually didnt help in pve, now at least you get resistances.

I play both pvp and pve, I haven't really seen any big changes that hindered pve gameplay because of pvp.

Decimus · September 2021

Baitless version:

The more PvE oriented players worried about now having to do PvP to earn the skills locked behind PvP might want to look at it from the PvPer perspective: we have had to farm dungeons for 7 years now to get BiS gear for PvP builds, and there is no end in sight.

I would also look at the fact that no new PvP content has been added in years (no, a trebuchet emote doesn't count), while PvErs get 4 dungeons and 1-2 trials/arenas each year.

This is the PvPer point of view.

Having a bit more PvP when queueing for a PvP game mode is a very welcome change, with this point of view in mind.

They can add back the objective game modes when PvP isn't actively discouraged in those.

Franchise408 · September 2021

Decimus wrote: »

Baitless version:

The more PvE oriented players worried about now having to do PvP to earn the skills locked behind PvP might want to look at it from the PvPer perspective: we have had to farm dungeons for 7 years now to get BiS gear for PvP builds, and there is no end in sight.

I would also look at the fact that no new PvP content has been added in years (no, a trebuchet emote doesn't count), while PvErs get 4 dungeons and 1-2 trials/arenas each year.

This is the PvPer point of view.

Having a bit more PvP when queueing for a PvP game mode is a very welcome change, with this point of view in mind.

They can add back the objective game modes when PvP isn't actively discouraged in those.

As a reminder, PVP =/= "killing". It simply means "player versus player". What that "versus" is, can entail many things.

This is also a PVE centric game, in a PVE centric IP, with a PVE centric audience, so it only makes sense that PVP'ers would have more of a PVE load to carry than vice versa. It's not outside the norm in the genre either.

You also have your pure killing modes of PVP with Cyrodiil and Imperial City, so removing the only element of PVP diversity in this game remains an invalid decision to make.

I will concede tho that more PVP content would be a positive.

But then you have to think, if the game continues to push 4 dungeons and a trial + the numerous overland content year in and year out, with 0 PVP content to match up with it, it's probably due to the fact that this is a PVE centered game where PVE is what is most in demand. This is not Call Of Duty: Tamriel