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Since when is Questing...
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Ragekniv✭✭✭Any tiered leveling system requires the laborious task of grinding regardless of method.
If you enjoy it or if you don't, it doesn't change the mechanics of MMOs or the definition of grinding.Edited by Ragekniv on 10 June 2014 20:250 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »
ESO questing and veteran questing is NOT a grind. If you prefer generic quest models, then this just not your game. (Though it makes me wonder if anyone would complain if they completely removed quests from other MMOs - my guess? Probably not.Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
On contrary if you prefer engaging story and a quest model that makes you put quite an effort in it, then this is just the game you're looking for.
There are some things that need to be improved. At least more options for others to level up faster. Overally this department of the game is still incredibly well designed and could use just more content. On the other hand what really needs some fixes is - class balance and skills.
ESO questing is a grind. Other games' questing is also a grind. To the OP, questing has ALWAYS been able to be considered a grind. I'm... not sure what rock you've been playing under.
ESO quests are more enjoyable, yes, but they still become a grind very very easily to most people. Not everyone can play Mass Effect 8 times, you know, which is the number of character slots we have in ESO.
You are very wrong, quests were never considered a grind, until MMOs invented it. Go play an RPG game like The Witcher or Skyrim and then tell me that questing is grind. Cause you know ESO is pretty much on that level, some quests even above it.
I dont know what does that have to do with Mass Effect, for me it has the best RPG story I've ever played, and I still completed it only once.
Edited by Bloodfang on 10 June 2014 20:254 -
Azzuria✭✭✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »ESO questing is a grind. Other games' questing is also a grind. To the OP, questing has ALWAYS been able to be considered a grind. I'm... not sure what rock you've been playing under.
That 'rock' was every MMO ( and a few RPGs ) of any note for the past 11 years. Some were more grindy than others ( Aion ), some less ( TSW ) but I never considered questing to be a grind if the quests were well designed and interesting. Replaying quests over and over and over can feel like a grind, like for every new character created in Age of Conan going to the pirate island. But once out in the world at large quests stopped being grindy and starting being interesting stories again.
To my mind, 'grind' has a connotation of tons of effort, tons to time with little to no interest and little to no reward. I can say, for myself at least, that ESO quests are among the least grindy I've ever experienced in an MMO. I can't tell you the number of times I've happened upon an NPC and been drawn into an epic story-line that provides an hour or two of entertainment and a skill point. To me, that ability to draw me in and make me -want- to do a quest for the sake of the story alone is the very antithesis of 'grind'.
Brunhilda Icehammer - Nord Dragonknight, 'Smith & Enchantress 'What is 'ranged? I need to hit something!!'
Laehl Direthorn - Bosmer Nightblade, Purveyor of fine Clothes, Bows and Staves
Reeza gra-Zuni - Orc Templar 'War Shaman' and Apothecary
Noemi Snowpaw - Kajiit Dragon Knight - I laugh... or I'd have to kill you.
Kitera Dreamon - Breton of The Dominion: Because those Daggers don't appreciate a great Mage.
Lysara Shadowcroft - Dunmer Bloodmage: This will only hurt a lot.2 -
Crisscross✭✭✭Crisscross wrote: »
ESO questing and veteran questing is NOT a grind. If you prefer generic quest models, then this just not your game. (Though it makes me wonder if anyone would complain if they completely removed quests from other MMOs - my guess? Probably not.Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
On contrary if you prefer engaging story and a quest model that makes you put quite an effort in it, then this is just the game you're looking for.
There are some things that need to be improved. At least more options for others to level up faster. Overally this department of the game is still incredibly well designed and could use just more content. On the other hand what really needs some fixes is - class balance and skills.
ESO questing is a grind. Other games' questing is also a grind. To the OP, questing has ALWAYS been able to be considered a grind. I'm... not sure what rock you've been playing under.
ESO quests are more enjoyable, yes, but they still become a grind very very easily to most people. Not everyone can play Mass Effect 8 times, you know, which is the number of character slots we have in ESO.
You are very wrong, quests were never considered a grind, until MMOs invented it. Go play an RPG game like The Witcher or Skyrim and then tell me that questing is grind. Cause you know ESO is pretty much on that level, some quests even above it.
I dont know what does that have to do with Mass Effect, for me it has the best RPG story I've ever played, and I still completed it only once.
Yeah, I was just talking about MMOs, because you don't "quest" in single player games... You kind of just play.
Regarding Mass Effect, no matter how good a story is, it gets old after a while.Edited by Crisscross on 10 June 2014 20:570 -
Kenthros✭✭Although I enjoy this game quite a bit, What questing in a role playing game to me is getting a quest in old morrowind, or EQ, you got no icon to tell you were to go. You got some instructions on how to get to the general area and the rest you had to figure out, that to me is questing, getting lost with some friends trying to find a area and figuring out what to do.But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.3 -
Sandmanninja✭✭✭✭Let's compare (because it begs comparison) WoW end content with ESO end content.
In WoW, (for a lot of people) the goal in life was to hit level cap so you can begin heroic dungeons, LFR then normal raids. The purpose being to get good/better/best gear.
In ESO, that end goal is NOT that. Yes, there are timed trials which are the closest ESO has to raids, but it's not the same.
The reason you 'grind' that same Heroic Boss every week in WoW is hoping that shield or bow or sword drops.
In ESO, you can CRAFT Legendary gear. I'm not opposed to this - in fact it's one of the things that draws me to ESO (as I love crafting).
I think people should realise the end goals are NOT the same and the big rush to VR12 is going to end in suffering, pain and disappointment.Edited by Sandmanninja on 10 June 2014 21:12[Hard Mode Dungeoneers] is recruiting all players of all levels for this new Guild.
THIS IS A NEW-BUT-GROWING GUILD. We are focused on doing vet pledges, vet dungeons, getting achieves, & doing hard mode bosses.
Most active GMT+10 (Australia time zone) in the afternoon Mon-Fri and all day Sat/Sun.
Pst/email for info/invites.2 -
steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭Sandmanninja wrote: »I think people should realise the end goals are NOT the same and the big rush to VR12 is going to end in suffering, pain and disappointment.
The suffering, pain and disappointment starts at VR1 unfortunately.4 -
Paladin_echo1✭✭✭While the previous comment remains true, the quest exp at the moment sucks terribly. They need to reward quests a bit higher than what they are now because it is terrible.0
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kaosodin✭✭✭✭In EVERY mmo there are only a few ways to advance..... mobs.....quest..... bonuses ( discoveries etc)
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steveb16_ESO46✭✭✭✭✭In EVERY mmo there are only a few ways to advance..... mobs.....quest..... bonuses ( discoveries etc)
Yes. The question is - fun or boring? The answer is subjective. No-one gets to argue with a person's answer. The only question after that is when you add all the answers up and look at what this means in practice for income, what does this mean for the future of the game?
Does anyone seriously want to bet that the current VR is a net positive? I wouldn't.
But I sure hope i'm wrong because none of us will like what an FTP version of ESO will look like.0 -
Honestly, I think people would complain less about VR content if VR levels went up to like 30. Don't have to change the stats or anything, just the number of VR levels. Part of the problem with VR content is psychological... It's a lot of work for what appears to be very little gain. When you giveyourself a migraine trying to complete a quest only to see your XP bar nudge less than a pixel... That's a tough pill to swallow. The same amount of points diviNox_Aeterna wrote: »First let me say i kind of enjoy the game in the same way you do OP , i did not mind doing all quests up to the vr9 zone and now i only have left the vr10 zone.
My problem is when they intend to toss me into craglorn to quest in groups , which i dont want to do at all , and thus would rather grind/farm the exp in a zerg.
With that said , any action can be grindy , like said above , to grind , it is to just keep repeating the same thing over and over.
It does not need to be annoying at all to the person , i used to spend hours grinding for mats/gold... In other RPGs , could be just killing a few mobs in an area over and over again , not always it was boring or got me annoyed , for the most part i do enjoy grinding.
If we go back to GW2 , the MMO i believe i grinded the most of them all , each set of lvls there was a place where it would keep spamming tons of mobs in an event , you usually would see a LOT of players there to keep doing that same event over and over again. Then again , one of the few MMOs i ever lvled 3 chars to max lvl also.
Yes, but this one goes to 11, for when you need that one louder.....
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Mablung✭✭✭✭✭FrauPerchta wrote: »If you don't want to quest for XP and you don't want to grind mobs for XP what do you want to do to get XP to level? Just log on to character?
This quote should be carved in stone and put on every logon screen.
In other games pvp, crafting, achievement completion were all viable ways to gain xp and level. I am not saying that these should be implemented. I am just giving you a better answer than simply logging in to the game.1 -
Veteran content was badly designed imho. I said it in also different topic. If they gave you an option to see the other alliance quests as optional feature. It would be better. Level 50 should have been top level and veteran ranks should have been only some kind of prestigue. No more stat imorovements for vet level and everything would be fine.
People who wanted to PvP only, would have had their top level and could tune their equipment and skills. Raiders would be raiding.
Anyone who would like to see other alliances would be allowed and as a reward for that are skill points and lore... I would do vet content for sure, but I would focus more on PvP and do PvE when I needed a break.
Current system forces you grind to top vet level which is not right.Edited by sevcik.miroslaveb17_ESO on 10 June 2014 21:520 -
wrlifeboil✭✭✭✭✭Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
The consensus is that ZOS succeeded in turning questing that would have been enjoyable as alts into an unbearable grind for VR.2 -
TicToc✭✭✭Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
Because it is an MMO, and many MMO players will tell you that the end-game is what is important. Many people want to raid. That is what an MMO is to them. Others want to PvP competitively. That doesn't make them "maladjusted".
"Epic" is a bit of a stretch. It is big, but much of the questing is rather mundane, and often redundant, so it is no wonder that people, even those that like questing, begin to find it tedious, after a while.
I think it was a great idea to make visiting the other realms an option, once you hit 50. It would give players that only play one character an option to see everything. The fact that it is forced on you as part of the main content was a horrible idea. People picked a faction they wanted now they are forced to run the ones that they didn't.
It is even worse for alt-aholic type players as there is no different content to run. Every character will run all the same content. What could have been a highly praised option, became an obvious attempt to reuse existing content, and drag out the leveling process to keep people subscribing longer...something that is not going to work.
On top of that many other aspects of the game seem specifically designed to be cumbersome or time consuming to slow progress further.
To answer the question, questing becomes a grind when it is a barrier to the content that people want to play. It becomes more of a grind when its progress is deliberately slowed.
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Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭wrlifeboil wrote: »Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
The consensus is that ZOS succeeded in turning questing that would have been enjoyable as alts into an unbearable grind for VR.
I already wrote this on some other topic - not all hate veteran rank content and questing (including me).
You might question yourself why. It's easy really:- Some don't like alts idea, they like to achieve everything with just 1 character (usually on other MMOs you have skills, professions etc. very limited)
However I do agree on some things:- It's really not cool that we have to quest in other faction zones. I believe if they would had made at least 10 zones per every faction we wouldn't be facing this problem (Questing would last the same except that you'd face only your faction problems, and players could create alts to experience other faction story).
- It's not cool either that we can't choose which veteran faction we want first.
- Questing in ESO is one of the ENDGAME. Why not make more World Events like Rift Invasions, or anything fun really to keep us entertained while questing?
- And the last thing I really feel they should add option if you want veteran content to be normal/hard difficulty etc (some achievements associated with it too), right now many are struggling. And everyone hates to struggle while questing.
Edited by Bloodfang on 10 June 2014 22:070 -
Falmer✭✭✭✭I guess I kind of understand the "quest grinding" term.
For me, its being kind of forced to replay content you have already seen with your other characters. Replaying the same content over and over again is 'grinding'.1 -
Cimos✭✭✭After about 7 days of playtime, even well written quests with great audio become boring.
You have to be a true hardcore RPGer (or have ALOT of drugs) to play/ listen/read/engage in every single quest in all 3 factions.
Usually around that 100-150 hours of playtime, players are tired of questing/leveling and are looking for more end game stuff: PvP, group PVE, end game gearing, etc.
ESO strength as an MMO comes in the first 100-150 hours of gameplay because the quests are so good. After that, its a sharp decline because of the lack of end game options.1 -
ZeroInspiration✭✭✭After about 7 days of playtime, even well written quests with great audio become boring.
You have to be a true hardcore RPGer (or have ALOT of drugs) to play/ listen/read/engage in every single quest in all 3 factions.
Usually around that 100-150 hours of playtime, players are tired of questing/leveling and are looking for more end game stuff: PvP, group PVE, end game gearing, etc.
ESO strength as an MMO comes in the first 100-150 hours of gameplay because the quests are so good. After that, its a sharp decline because of the lack of end game options.
Has it ocurred to you that maybe it isn't supposed to have endgame? The experience is the entire game itself, I dunno why MMO players can't wrap their heads around the idea of having most of the game's content available before the lvl cap.7 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭@op, it's not but good luck getting some of these individuals to admit it. Grinding is killing the same mobs over and over again, like the trains in craglorn. Just because some of you hate questing or are bored with it does not make it grinding.Edited by Arsenic_Touch on 10 June 2014 23:12☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB1 -
Kililin✭✭✭✭Grinding is any repetitive task.
Quests are repetitive at the latest repetition starts at 50+ content.
So grinding is questing.
If you are really challenged and entertained by the quests have fun, there are also people challenged by moving around in a mmo which is about the same difficulty...0 -
Darastix✭✭✭I hate questing, i never even bother to read the dialog since its nothing but dribble. I would rather just got out and wonder around killing what ever was in my path as i explore the areas.
Questing often destroys exploration since i'm searching for specific things, many times placed in a hard to reach areas. This causes tunnel vision where i ignore the surroundings in search of the quest carrot.
Unfortunately questing is becoming the mandatory form of XP and mob killing is frowned upon. Bring back Mob XP and have fewer, but longer quests, and the story's for them will improve making them more appealing.1 -
Kililin✭✭✭✭I hate questing, i never even bother to read the dialog since its nothing but dribble. I would rather just got out and wonder around killing what ever was in my path as i explore the areas.
I sometimes wonder if the difference between people loving the quests and people hating them is a reading habit.
If you love and read books and literature you probably dont think that quest texts are especially good.
If you never read anything otoh...1 -
Arsenic_Touch✭✭✭✭✭
✭I hate questing, i never even bother to read the dialog since its nothing but dribble. I would rather just got out and wonder around killing what ever was in my path as i explore the areas.
I sometimes wonder if the difference between people loving the quests and people hating them is a reading habit.
If you love and read books and literature you probably dont think that quest texts are especially good.
If you never read anything otoh...
It's amazing how many people claim to hate reading in an RPG. The people whining about grinding have clearly never played a Korean mmorpg.☠ Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured? ☠
╔═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╗
"Hope can drown lost in thunderous sound."
"Fear can claim what little faith remains."
"Death will take those who fight alone."
"But united we can break a fate once set in stone."
╚═════════════ ೋღ☃ღೋ ══════════════╝
NA // Ebonheart Pact // Leader of CORE Legion // Namira Beta Tester // VR11 NB0 -
Cimos✭✭✭ZeroInspiration wrote: »After about 7 days of playtime, even well written quests with great audio become boring.
You have to be a true hardcore RPGer (or have ALOT of drugs) to play/ listen/read/engage in every single quest in all 3 factions.
Usually around that 100-150 hours of playtime, players are tired of questing/leveling and are looking for more end game stuff: PvP, group PVE, end game gearing, etc.
ESO strength as an MMO comes in the first 100-150 hours of gameplay because the quests are so good. After that, its a sharp decline because of the lack of end game options.
Has it ocurred to you that maybe it isn't supposed to have endgame? The experience is the entire game itself, I dunno why MMO players can't wrap their heads around the idea of having most of the game's content available before the lvl cap.
LOL! MMO without an endgame? You know what that means right? End game is there so after you beat the game, its not over because you can replay end game content.
No end game = you can beat the game. What do you do once you beat a game? Trade it in for the next game. How is that a sustainable monthly subscription strategy?
I have a friend that took alot of time leveling up, played the whole game solo. He finished every quest (and was immersed in them) in the game leading up to Craglorn. Are you saying that when he is done with group questing in Craglorn, that he beat the game? He should no longer play? So he should un-sub because he beat the game?
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brandon✭✭✭✭Considered 'grinding'?
I see a lot of people complaining that they have to 'grind quests' in VR content.
Here I thought questing was the -point- of an epic fantasy game!
The same people who call questing 'grinding' also tend to complain about the lack of XP in dungeons and whine about not being able to level in PvP or by just slaughtering pack after pack after pack of mobs in the world.
Am I missing something or am I just to well-adjusted to understand that mindset?
Exactly how is killing mobs not grinding but questing is? It makes no sense to me.Edited by brandon on 10 June 2014 23:210 -
Shiroro✭✭✭The quests are great and I love the voice acting. Sure, some stuff could be better or less repetitive. You could say the same for any game. When you have 1000 quests they can't all be unique and fun. I thought I was running out of steam but then the Coldharbour quests were a fantastic change of pace and I had a lot of fun.
The VR zones are completely unbalanced-->unfun and there is no customization after lvl50. Zenimax has promised additional VR customization in July so all we can do is hope for the best.0 -
wafcatb14_ESO✭✭✭My first MMO was Everquest back in 1999 , i played that game for 6 years . played wow about 2 and quit a few times in that 2 years , as i was bored of the hand holding quest leveling treadmill .
But even tho i didn`t really care for WoW , atleast it had options you could do , as far as places to lvl up, for each level range per faction they had 3 to 4 different zones you could go to , too exp, quest or just grind mobs so it had a better replay value , this game really has none .
All it has is 1 zone desgined for every 10 lvls , no other option to go to , so if you reroll a alt on the same faction you have the same silly quest to grind all over again , in the same zones you already grinded in , or you can reroll on a different faction . However the Mage guild, Fighters guild and personal story is the same no matter what faction lol .
Sadly the trend the last 5 years in MMO`s is the lame personal story , where you are the Chosen one and half of the game`s content is wasted on a personal story instead of content . b Personal story driven games are great for a single player RPG , but in a MMO they are kinda stupid , yes I am the Chosen one ! and so are the other 10 k players running around on my server , yawn
Game would have been way better had they just created the World and dropped us into it as no one special , just another average joe smo Farmers kid out to find his fourtune in the game world . and give us the world add quest , events etc to make it seem alive and let us create our own Adventure .
Instead of this linear , hand holding quest driven game on rails .
I don`t think they have a clue wtf they are doing to be honest, it`s like they created a single player game , where class balance, and replay value is not inportant , but then decided to call it a MMO and charge a sub , but didn`t change anything from the Single player RPG .
crappy User interface, crappy , guild section, guild store that looks like someones kid worked on it durning Xmas break, with almost no functional to it
No endgame so they added oooo you can now grind through the other factions quest at endgame haha wtf .
Class ablities half don`t work and the best builds all use light armor and 2 staffs lol .
Maybe they can use the money from the box sales and subs to hire people to fix their game before it goes free to play .,Edited by wafcatb14_ESO on 10 June 2014 23:504 -
Mercurio✭✭✭[/quote]
Yeah, I was just talking about MMOs, because you don't "quest" in single player games... You kind of just play.
[/quote]
And here we are. THIS is the root philosophy that we're identifying as erroneous. Have you ever played a single player RPG? Have you ever done 'missions' in GTA or the hundreds of similar games that have quest/mission mechanics? What pojnt are you making here? Only MMO(RPG)s have quests that advance the story/progression?
What the issue is here - we have so many MMO'ers that aren't RPG fans at all. They have no history with genre. I always wonder why so many people that hate RPG mechanics attempt to play MMORPGs? They flood forums demanding that things like levels, gear, and stats be removed. That everything be perfectly balanced into a 2D fighter model. That all forms of progression are a 'grind'. You can find these topics in every MMO message board.
They dont want a world but a lobby so they can "grind" their game for the rewards while playing LoL or minecraft on the side for fun.
They don't want to play the games or achieve anything at all. It's all a means to the end. They just want to flex their e-peens before moving on the next FotM game.
RPGs have quests. they have levels. they have stats. and they have gear. whether it's a clever relabeling or not these are staples of the genre. ok I went a little off the reservation there
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