Just stop with this 'Hold RMB' = skillful playing ZOS

alexj4596b14_ESO · June 2014

c0rp wrote: »

Holding block should DISABLE all actions and abilities as far as Im concerned. When i discovered that instants could be casted while blocking I was shocked, truthfully. Its even more hilarious when two players are fighting 1v1 at range and both are just strafing in a circle holding block the ENTIRE time. This really needs looked at imo.

This would effect pve way too much, that would mean we could not taunt while blocking. Not a good plan

Najarati · June 2014

Frankly, I’d love for blocking to be more conditional if it led to heavy armor mitigating significantly more damage. As a (Nightblade) tank, blocking is pretty much required for me to stand up against more than a couple opponents in the battlefield; plus, some set bonuses (like the Hist Tree set) require the wearer blocks in order to gain its bonus (I’m probably one of five people who tries to stack this with Blur/Mirage).

Let’s say heavy armor mitigation was drastically increased. If so, then I’d like to see the following changes to block:

Total blocking radius reduced from 360 degrees to 180 degrees (front of player).
Of the total blocking radius the fully effective radius encompasses a 145-degree cone in front of the player and provides 100% mitigation while the partially effective radius encompasses the remaining 17.5 degrees on either side of the player and provides 75% mitigation.
Note: These percentages would likely need to be tuned downwards when blocking with weapons.
Cost of blocking reduced by x% of maximum stamina.
Adjust block mitigation bonuses to either improve partial effective radius or provide blocking cost reduction
I’m not entirely sure if this is the case already, but blocking with shields should work against AoE effects (think classic knight deflecting a dragon’s breath).

As some have mentioned before, I think this would both strengthen and weaken blocking. It becomes more effective against a frontal assault, but weaker against opponents who gain better positioning over you (flanking/backstabbing). However, this does hinge on heavy armor (and possibly medium) providing its wearers better protection.

Edited for clarity.

Nandred · June 2014

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

But now this is about magicka builds vs stamina builds again. back and forth back and forth...

While that is another BIG problem with the game, I really don't think that it can be fixed in a meaningful way anytime soon. Block on the other hand can be isolated to a single game mechanic and can be tweaked separately from messing up all class skills.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Blocking is fine as it is. In fact, blocking should use MORE stamina by default, and the heavy armor buff and 1h/sh buffs should reduce block cost more. Insert more cries and cover stories if you will.

You should also note that the skill is called "Brace" for a reason. Bracing for attacks isn't limited by direction.

(I put a line through the one sentence in your statement that I did not agree with)

Now block in of itself is ok if it was only 360 block + high dmg mitigation. But currently what we have is that you get the added bonus of using instant cast spells while blocking.

I really like that idea that makes heavy armour the 'blocker's choice'. It makes so much sense it hurts. The current bonuses for using heavy armour while blocking are weak compared to how well a person in light armour can block.

Now

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Really, because I hear more crying about nerfing blocking overall than making blocking fall off while using a spell. That is what happens when spells are insta cast. You want this to stop, all spells will need a cast time. Everything will need a cast time. The things you can't use while blocking either have a cast time or are a targeted ground effect. This is not so much a problem with blocking as it is with a problem with insta cast skills where others are not insta cast. Not to mention some of them aren't blockable, as I mentioned. Block and heal with a dress, I know all about that. Templars know all about that too, meanwhile they call dragon blood Op.

I would so love if impulse, talons, mages fury, etc had a cast time on them too. I don't expect that to happen any time soon and "nerfing blocking" won't give the same effect.

And what is this about stamina builds. there are other threads for about how they suck compared to magica builds.

And cut it with the exceeds mental capacity crap. Overused line is overused.

What we can do, is just do like all the other copy/paste goobers and make staff/light armor builds with unblockable attacks because ZoS is going to take their sweet time changing any of this.

I never stated to nerf block. I stated to fix its laughably *** mechanic. Now if the term fixing has been replaced with nerfing in my absence of mmo's over the past 5 years, then 'Mon Dieu!'

However, to make all abilities have a cast time is interesting but it would be a cross class fix with a crap ton of tweaking on what spells should have 0.X cast times. It is an idea however and a new one.

Perhaps the best idea i have read so far is that block should use the stealth mechanic of stamina drain while having it activated. If you couple that with stam loss per hit, you would have a mechanic that would require cognitive thinking and appropriate reaction time to take full advantage of. Now you don't need to remind me that this change *** on stam builds, but believe me, as a stam build myself, we are busy dying while attacking or out of stam, we rarely have the stam pool to block after using abilities/breaking cc.

demonlkojipub19_ESO · June 2014

I would be fine if the act of holding block reduced stamina regen to 0, just like moving while sneaking and sprinting does. Drained while blocking would go too far as long as taking hits also drained stamina, and still damaged you.

and as posted before by other as long as CC Breaking/blocking/sneaking/sprinting/bashing uses stamina it will still hurts stamina builds and do little to magicka builds. They need from a different resource in order for stamina builds to work as well as magicka builds.

Kiljaz · June 2014

alexj4596b14_ESO wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

Holding block should DISABLE all actions and abilities as far as Im concerned. When i discovered that instants could be casted while blocking I was shocked, truthfully. Its even more hilarious when two players are fighting 1v1 at range and both are just strafing in a circle holding block the ENTIRE time. This really needs looked at imo.

This would effect pve way too much, that would mean we could not taunt while blocking. Not a good plan

That is really easy to prevent... make it applicable to cyrodill only.

Kiljaz · June 2014

Najarati wrote: »

Frankly, I’d love for blocking to be more conditional if it led to heavy armor mitigating significantly more damage. As a (Nightblade) tank, blocking is pretty much required for me to stand up against more than a couple opponents in the battlefield; plus, some set bonuses (like the Hist Tree set) require the wearer blocks in order to gain its bonus (I’m probably one of five people who tries to stack this with Blur/Mirage).

Let’s say heavy armor mitigation was drastically increased. If so, then I’d like to see the following changes to block:
Total blocking radius reduced from 360 degrees to 180 degrees (front of player).

Of the total blocking radius the fully effective radius encompasses a 145-degree cone in front of the player and provides 100% mitigation while the partially effective radius encompasses the remaining 17.5 degrees on either side of the player and provides 75% mitigation.
Note: These percentages would likely need to be tuned downwards when blocking with weapons.

Cost of blocking reduced by x% of maximum stamina.

Adjust block mitigation bonuses to either improve partial effective radius or provide blocking cost reduction

I’m not entirely sure if this is the case already, but blocking with shields should work against AoE effects (think classic knight deflecting a dragon’s breath).

As some have mentioned before, I think this would both strengthen and weaken blocking. It becomes more effective against a frontal assault, but weaker against opponents who gain better positioning over you (flanking/backstabbing). However, this does hinge on heavy armor (and possibly medium) providing its wearers better protection.

Edited for clarity.

The 100% damage mitigation would not work in pvp. It would be way too powerful against rage users.

Xnemesis · June 2014

Just make it that for every 3 seconds you hold down RMB you lose 10% of your mitigation. So when you would normally block say 100 you would only block 90 and so forth down to a cap of -60% mitigation. Make it a Debuff called fatigue or something. This will lead to a more reactionary type combat system versus hold this button down and spam abilities. also Remove the 360 degrees. Make it like 180 degrees.

Ragnar_Lodbrok · June 2014

Nandred wrote: »

I'm a sorc and I know know that BE is getting the biggest nerf spanking in this games short history soon. However, this is nothing compared to the hold block and win. This is absolutely mind boggling of a mechanic. It makes DK's gods with their class abilities and sorc's pretty tanky too when they hold down the button spec for inst cast/procs with a 1200 stam pool for break/block.

I use a stam build with a two-hander with my sorc because i thought the flexibility of playing your own way was true. Now I know that is absolutely sub optimal thanks to leather being **** in passives save the first one, but I AM PUNISHED using a two-hander. I have to leave my self open to attack while I swing or use my abilities. Players with instant cast class spells that just hold the RMB exhume this aura of being the difference between a good player and being bad (obviously cookie cutting is a factor too).

Stop nerfing DK's, stop nerfing Sorcs.

Get these mechanics changed, I bet that if you changed the game to be unable to cast while blocking, A vast majority of your 'OMG DK'S OP' will be over. Its a flawed mechanic, we know it, you know it. When the mechanics of the game are changed to be less hilariously bad, then focus on appeasing the nerf mob.

Keep fixing NB's, and for the love of god help the Templars.

LOLOLOLOL. You know blocking with 1h & s is totally broken? What you are saying simply is not happening, other than needless nerfs

Wolfahm · June 2014

bump so ZOS reads this...

people defending blocks current state
1. don't understand how it works.
or
2. never let go of block and think they are in some way "skilled" in combat.

dahl.lucas_ESO · June 2014

That would explain a lot when I hit some one while they are in the middle of an attack and all of them do little to no damage. If that's the case then blocking should really be looked at again and while they are at it, make stamina builds more useful and giving a stronger perspective of why to go heavy armor. A lot of things just don't seem to be right yet.

I'd have the effects of blocking only effective in its animation and no other effects ( except for pve aspects) and give it a delay to animation when leaving to block, like a 1 or .5 sec, I would not want to ruin blocking so a small change here and there and test it sounds safe.

Just my take on it. Some of thoughts posted here sound good to think on.

NerfEverything · June 2014

Nandred wrote: »

Keep fixing NB's, and for the love of god help the Templars.

This, please for the love of god, this.

Najarati · June 2014

Kiljaz wrote: »

The 100% damage mitigation would not work in pvp. It would be way too powerful against rage users.

Rage users? You'll have to explain that one to me.

Xnemesis · June 2014

Najarati wrote: »

Kiljaz wrote: »

The 100% damage mitigation would not work in pvp. It would be way too powerful against rage users.

Rage users? You'll have to explain that one to me.

Sure he means range

Najarati · June 2014

Xnemesis wrote: »

Sure he means range

Ah! In that case I disagree. It's not terribly difficult to sneak behind someone and shoot them; particularly, for Nightblades. In fact, most archers tend to shoot me in the back anyways, despite it not making any difference currently.

Also, in the proposed system, there's nothing to say your buddy couldn't circle around said blocker and get a stun off, allowing said ranged characters to cast/plink away at the stunned target. Would this mean ranged characters would have to do more than just hammer away at a person's shield? Yes it would, but the whole idea is to make positioning more important.

Kiljaz · June 2014

Najarati wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

Sure he means range

Ah! In that case I disagree. It's not terribly difficult to sneak behind someone and shoot them; particularly, for Nightblades. In fact, most archers tend to shoot me in the back anyways, despite it not making any difference currently.

Also, in the proposed system, there's nothing to say your buddy couldn't circle around said blocker and get a stun off, allowing said ranged characters to cast/plink away at the stunned target. Would this mean ranged characters would have to do more than just hammer away at a person's shield? Yes it would, but the whole idea is to make positioning more important.

Yes that was a typo sorry... Range. And no, not easy.

Example:

You're ranged and sneak up behind me and start attacking. You get one, maybe two hits in before I'm facing you and holding block. Now I use a potion that increases weapon damage, movement speed, and restores stamina and then gap close and CC you.

Now you're dead.

james_vestbergb16_ESO · June 2014

Censorious wrote: »

There's nothing wrong with block.

1/ It doesn't stop damage, just mitigates it.
2/ Each attack blocked uses a chunk of stamina so the block only holds a few strikes.
3/ You can only move very slowly while blocking.

If someone blocks - you just throw light attacks until they stop blocking - easy.

Of course, if you just want to stun-lock-and-burst you're out of luck. This isn't WoW and Nightblades are not Rogues.

Exactly, stand there with ur RMB firmly pressed and u'll find urself out of stamina quite fast.

Also think of formation fighting, you can strike with a weapon and block with ur shield at the same time in real life you know,spartans and romans perfected it, not much too it. However blocking with ur axe and swinging it at the same time, just not possible.

Anyone can block, so there needs to be benefits in using the shield. hence extra mitigation etc etc.

Najarati · June 2014

Kiljaz wrote: »

Yes that was a typo sorry... Range. And no, not easy.

Example:

You're ranged and sneak up behind me and start attacking. You get one, maybe two hits in before I'm facing you and holding block. Now I use a potion that increases weapon damage, movement speed, and restores stamina and then gap close and CC you.

Now you're dead.

Well, in a Nightblade archer's case: They could Dark Cloak, hide, and take a new position and attack you; or, they could instead choose to engage you (nothing to say the archer doesn't melee as well), wait until you get close, walk through you (no collision detection and no blocking from behind), hit fear, and attack you from behind while you run; or, the most likely case, just tag-team you with another archer (you can only face one of them at a time if they're on opposite sides).

Be realistic: one-on-ones are very rare in Cyrodiil and in the chaos of most battles someone is going to get you from behind; probably multliple someones. There's a reason the changes to block would also necessitate an improvement in heavy armor; tanks are going to need that protection with people getting past their blocks.

Edited for clarity.

Kiljaz · June 2014

I have 1on1's all the time... There are a lot of gankers and counter-gankers I guess you never see.

Najarati · June 2014

Kiljaz wrote: »

I have 1on1's all the time... There are a lot of gankers and counter-gankers I guess you never see.

So, that's it? No counterargument other than some anecdotal bit about seeing one-on-ones "all the time?" The thinly veiled insult is humorous, too. You have no idea what I see and do not see. Also, I could easily say "I see group battles all the time." Well, how much is that?

Anyone else have anything to add?

Kiljaz · June 2014

I wasn't insulting you at all. There are different play styles. You could be a large group player and therefore not notice the small scale pvp.

As for guise... Detection potion? I'm sorry, but personally, I view NBs as a virtual free kill when you're an alchlemist.

Anyhow, this is theorycrafting. If you're EP or AD and would like to try it out even without block, PM me. We'll test it.

Najarati · June 2014

Kiljaz wrote: »

...
As for guise... Detection potion? I'm sorry, but personally, I view NBs as a virtual free kill when you're an alchlemist.

Anyhow, this is theorycrafting. If you're EP or AD and would like to try it out even without block, PM me. We'll test it.

If you're drinking a detection potion then you aren't drinking one to increase your movement, stamina, or health. Also, if block isn't 360 you're likely going to eat a Reaper's/Piercing Mark'd shot since you'll have to know where it's coming from (can't just block like you can now).

And you're right, it is just theory crafting, which is why I was aiming my changes towards the likeliest scenarios--small and large group combat. And ranged doesn't have to be from a Nightblade, I'm just the most familiar with that class.

Sadly, as for testing, I'm not set up to burst with a bow. I'm a tank who happens to have a bow as an alternate weapon. I do travel with some archers set up for burst. They might be interested.

EDIT: Actually, it seems we're all DC by the sound of things so testing won't be possible unless a duel option is added sometime soon.

Wolfahm · June 2014

Najarati wrote: »

If you're drinking a detection potion then you aren't drinking one to increase your movement, stamina, or health. Also, if block isn't 360 you're likely going to eat a Reaper's/Piercing Mark'd shot since you'll have to know where it's coming from (can't just block like you can now).

Detect with crit or damage+mana on the same potion (30sec cool down big deal ) .. pop it see stealther > attack them out of stealth taking away most of the NBs damage(assassin builds) > hold block > NB cant CC you 0 chance to recover > you win. As for your 2nd part your more or less saying positioning should mean nothing in a fight because its not fair you lack the skills to face a target? Logic.. never take up fighting in any form as a hobby/sport.

Nandred · June 2014

james_vestbergb16_ESO wrote: »

Exactly, stand there with ur RMB firmly pressed and u'll find urself out of stamina quite fast.

Also think of formation fighting, you can strike with a weapon and block with ur shield at the same time in real life you know,spartans and romans perfected it, not much too it. However blocking with ur axe and swinging it at the same time, just not possible.

Anyone can block, so there needs to be benefits in using the shield. hence extra mitigation etc etc.

My gripe is blocking while casting your instant spells. Its having your cake and eating it. Blocking should be totally dedicated. The stam loss on block is another issue for another time.

The IRL is not applicable here.

Wolfahm · June 2014

@james_vestbergb16_ESO

IRL as stated when you block and attack.. your left open in some way after said attack... please pick up a shield and sword IRL and attack with force behind it well not leaving yourself open in some way... also if you want to go the IRL route .. why cant I use foot work and attack you from the flank or rear.. your IRL point is not valid at all

SBR_QuorTek · June 2014

bugulu wrote: »

Blocking in a 360 degree arc should be changed. You should only be able to block things when you are actively facing it.

That would make sense maybe so it only work like 170 degrees or something... getting flanked or backstabbed should always penetrate it since behind hit from either the side or in the back.

Najarati · June 2014

Wolfahm wrote: »

Detect with crit or damage+mana on the same potion (30sec cool down big deal ) .. pop it see stealther > attack them out of stealth taking away most of the NBs damage(assassin builds) > hold block > NB cant CC you 0 chance to recover > you win.

Just so you don't get too far off the original topic: The original point was that 100% mitigation while blocking with a shield (not 100% stamina-free mind you) in a 145-degree cone in front of the player would somehow be too strong against ranged damage (not Nightblade specific, was just used as an example).

And I still disagree despite the highly idealized scenario put forward.
Apparently, there's no elevation in terrain and/or the target automatically knows he's being stalked. Every target will also react the same way, like clockwork it seems, and have the same potions available.

But honestly, it doesn't matter. Again, these are one-on-one battles and with very specific parameters being set. But, I can tell you what's far more likely: more than two people being involved in a fight; then, the whole dynamic changes. One stun/knockdown from behind by another player (ranged or otherwise) and the guy blocking is open for attack from any source; doesn't matter how much damage blocking with a shield mitigates.

But I'll humor your point. Let's say it's not entirely fair in a one-on-one situation. Should a few sour grapes mean you throw out the entire bushel? I'd still argue small group, large group, and flat-out zerging are far more common battle scenarios then the example given earlier. Things should be adjusted for those situations, in my opinion.

And frankly, it doesn't necessarily have to be 100% mitigation when blocking from the front with a shield, but with the entire 180-degrees of your posterior open to attack, I think tanks will need it (which is why heavy armor would certainly need some improvement as well).

Wolfahm wrote: »

As for your 2nd part your more or less saying positioning should mean nothing in a fight because its not fair you lack the skills to face a target? Logic.. never take up fighting in any form as a hobby/sport.

Cute, but I would love to know how you reached that conclusion. Please explain how 180-degree blocking (as opposed to 360-degree blocking) makes positioning less important. It seems you glommed onto the one-on-one theory craft and didn't actually think anything else out beyond putting words in my mouth and making some vain attempt to insult me.