Overpowered, Unbalanced and Unrewarding - Solo Public Dungeon (Delve)?
Bloodfang
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Now that the Server is down I thought I'd share another really weird example of an Solo Public Dungeon (Delve).
I've had a bit of a vacation from the game (personal life issues), so I just logged on today and decided to have a gaming night.
As I was questing in Rivenspire (VR3) I've had my fair share of fun (quests are truly amazingly designed, and you feel more immersed than in the most of the RPG singleplayer games). But then my Templar Tank S&B just felt like marching into new direction, and I stumbled upon the solo Public Dungeon.
That was the Crestshade Mine. In my horror I realized this mine is infested with the trolls.
As I was slashing through the hordes of them I slowly realized, my god surely the boss will be another troll and probably nearly impossible to kill? Well, to both my dissapointment and relieve, but mostly dissapointment, that was not the case.
I'll explain that with some statistics. Regular troll in there has 7,3k hp, to make it even worse they are nearly healing 1% per sec no matter if they're stunned or attacking. And well Grimtooth has 6,6k hp and basically the same abilities, so thats one of the things that I just simply don't get at all.
But that is not even the only thing that bothers me, the whole Public Dungeon concept is extremely unrewarding. I've had to kill at least 10 trolls on my way to the pick-up-quest and to the final boss. To kill just one troll you MUST have a skill that stuns, potions and well patience. If you thought 7,3k hp is a lot, well so it happens due to it's healing that you have to do a total of 10k damage to put it in the grave. And I forgot to mention that auto attack is hitting me for 450 in full heavy armor
Anyways even the public dungeons could be improved, though this was a brutal but amazing experience. I have some ideas for it:
I've had a bit of a vacation from the game (personal life issues), so I just logged on today and decided to have a gaming night.
As I was questing in Rivenspire (VR3) I've had my fair share of fun (quests are truly amazingly designed, and you feel more immersed than in the most of the RPG singleplayer games). But then my Templar Tank S&B just felt like marching into new direction, and I stumbled upon the solo Public Dungeon.
That was the Crestshade Mine. In my horror I realized this mine is infested with the trolls.
As I was slashing through the hordes of them I slowly realized, my god surely the boss will be another troll and probably nearly impossible to kill? Well, to both my dissapointment and relieve, but mostly dissapointment, that was not the case.I'll explain that with some statistics. Regular troll in there has 7,3k hp, to make it even worse they are nearly healing 1% per sec no matter if they're stunned or attacking. And well Grimtooth has 6,6k hp and basically the same abilities, so thats one of the things that I just simply don't get at all.
But that is not even the only thing that bothers me, the whole Public Dungeon concept is extremely unrewarding. I've had to kill at least 10 trolls on my way to the pick-up-quest and to the final boss. To kill just one troll you MUST have a skill that stuns, potions and well patience. If you thought 7,3k hp is a lot, well so it happens due to it's healing that you have to do a total of 10k damage to put it in the grave. And I forgot to mention that auto attack is hitting me for 450 in full heavy armor
Anyways even the public dungeons could be improved, though this was a brutal but amazing experience. I have some ideas for it:
- First at least make a Final Boss harder than the mobs.
- Reward for killing a troll dammit! (or any other public dungeons that have a similar difficult encounters) I doubt bots would be able to kill them anyway, especially not in VR content (I'm yet to see a bot in Veteran Public Dungeons).
- I'd say this Delve felt harder than the normal one, but obviously not as hard as those Group Public Dungeons. As it is meant to be a Solo Public Dungeon, why not make another concept and add 1 harder Delve in every zone, (or rehash one of the existing ones), perhaps name it differently and with a boss dropping unique epic loot.
- And the last thing is the most important, it concerns all Public Dungeons. Since Zenimax has put a timer on the boss loot we are lucky if we get that blue shiny. Even more lucky if we get the item we need. Making 100% drop chance is a MUST, however in the first place to battle bots you could've made the item unique anyway, so you couldn't loot more than one. But what I feel is the most disappointing is the thing that I'm 90% of the time getting the item I don't need. Make a system that recognizes what are you wearing and drops the appropriate item?
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Ohioastro✭✭✭✭There are three tiers: the group dungeons (4-man crew basically required); the delves (solo-friendly, usually quick), and the public dungeons (more complex delves, typically packs of 4-6 mobs, best with a duo or group.) The third group have a different icon than the regular delves. They're looking to upgrade the delves in the road ahead, I think.
FYI there is a special challenge in the public dungeons, usually triggered in an out of the way place. It definitely requires a group (or being grossly over-leveled), and gives you a skill point.0 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭There are three tiers: the group dungeons (4-man crew basically required); the delves (solo-friendly, usually quick), and the public dungeons (more complex delves, typically packs of 4-6 mobs, best with a duo or group.) The third group have a different icon than the regular delves. They're looking to upgrade the delves in the road ahead, I think.
FYI there is a special challenge in the public dungeons, usually triggered in an out of the way place. It definitely requires a group (or being grossly over-leveled), and gives you a skill point.
Yeah I know all that, what I was saying is that this Solo Public Dungeon (Delve) is a bit harder than all other Delves. I mean it's kinda logical that trolls are harder to kill than bandits (just example).
As for the other thing I don't think adding a unique epic item as a reward for clearing harder delves would be that much of a deal.
Normal Delve -> 100% blue unique loot drop chance on boss
Harder Delve -> 100% epic unique loot drop chance on boss, 10% blue loot drop chance on mobs (just idea)
Public Dungeon -> 100% blue unique loot chance on bosses, 100% epic unique loot on group event boss (Better than what you would get in the Harder Delve but worse than Group Dungeons), and 5% blue loot drop on mobs (due to their numbers).
Wouldn't be that bad eh? Also at least Delves could get new better icons, and Public dungeons could keep that torch along with the group dungeons.
Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 04:090 -
Thunderknuckles✭✭✭✭I may be a fool, but aren't trolls one of the beasties that fire harms particularly badly? Maybe even slow or stop their regen? I use flame enchanted weapons often and it seems to jack their world pretty nicely.1 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭Thunderknuckles wrote: »I may be a fool, but aren't trolls one of the beasties that fire harms particularly badly? Maybe even slow or stop their regen? I use flame enchanted weapons often and it seems to jack their world pretty nicely.
No idea haven't tried that, but if it's true I guess it's a pretty nice design (same with the vampires). Though I doubt everyone is using fire spells and enchantments.
Still I'd rather fight 3 bandits than 1 troll (I'm looking at it as a more elite creature, like giants etc.) Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 04:130 -
Ninnghizhidda✭✭✭✭Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.Edited by Ninnghizhidda on 6 June 2014 04:542 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.
You are partly correct on that, however no matter what class / spec you are, you still have to deal that much damage before your resources get drained. But I'm still pretty sure anyone in Light Armor would get 2-shot by a troll if they let them get close enough.
As a Templar S&B Tank I can't really rely on spamming my highest aoe skills and hoping the troll will be dead before it manages to attack me. I havent wiped on them once in that cave, but I can't deny they are damn tough. Resources get drained way before I can kill them, so I just keep stunning them throughout the fight hoping my resources will get regenerated a bit while they can't attack me.
So yeah I did a test and I actually did 11,5k total damage to the troll before I managed to kill it, also received 3k damage in that time..So yeah I can imagine many players won't be able to solo them at all..
Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 05:250 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭Just did another testing:
3 Skeevers
-> Damage Done - 3,5k
-> Damage Received - 400
-> Duration - 7sec
3 Bandits
(1 healer)
-> Damage Done - 6,9k
-> Damage Received - 700
-> Duration - 21sec
1 Cave Troll
-> Damage Done - 11,8k
-> Damage Received - 2,5k
->Duration - 75sec
It's fair to say that the difficulty gap seems to be pretty big.
EDIT: Magdelena (World Boss)
-> Damage Done - 19,7k
-> Damage Received - 8,9k
-> Duration 189sec
I wondered if it's possible to solo a world boss in VR content, it seems it really is xD
I used the same tactics as against the Troll and it actually worked! I guess this game really doesn't disappoint to impress.
EDIT2: Just did it again, even downed the damage received. I'm sure you can't solo all things like this lol, but at least seems like stun and wait increases survivability against quest bosses by a big margin (or any other single target mob that is tough). I guess that's the lesson you get for entering troll cave. Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 08:001 -
Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
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As a "mage"(please don't hit me, I just chose sorcerer for the conjuring skills!), I can say trolls are MUCH easier for me - I do see how many trouble melee players have with them. Destruction staff can awesomely knock them back(flying trolls also look hilarious), after which you use the highest damage attack you get, they come back, you knock them back again, repeat til done, doesn't take very long.Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.
You are partly correct on that, however no matter what class / spec you are, you still have to deal that much damage before your resources get drained. But I'm still pretty sure anyone in Light Armor would get 2-shot by a troll if they let them get close enough.
As a Templar S&B Tank I can't really rely on spamming my highest aoe skills and hoping the troll will be dead before it manages to attack me. I havent wiped on them once in that cave, but I can't deny they are damn tough. Resources get drained way before I can kill them, so I just keep stunning them throughout the fight hoping my resources will get regenerated a bit while they can't attack me.
So yeah I did a test and I actually did 11,5k total damage to the troll before I managed to kill it, also received 3k damage in that time..So yeah I can imagine many players won't be able to solo them at all..
So in short - melee and mages are horribly unbalanced right now, yes.
And far as drop goes, I think each boss only drops one special item, so not sure what you mean by "get the drop you need". But yeah, would be cool if we could ever actually get the drop now...certainly not the case>.>
Loot timer also works on ALL bosses. So if you come out of the cave and decide to do that skull nearby...well, better not forget to stand still for 10 mins before that if you want any reward at all>_>Edited by Magdalina on 6 June 2014 09:421 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭magdalina157eb17_ESO wrote: »
And far as drop goes, I think each boss only drops one special item, so not sure what you mean by "get the drop you need". But yeah, would be cool if we could ever actually get the drop now...certainly not the case>.>Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.
You are partly correct on that, however no matter what class / spec you are, you still have to deal that much damage before your resources get drained. But I'm still pretty sure anyone in Light Armor would get 2-shot by a troll if they let them get close enough.
As a Templar S&B Tank I can't really rely on spamming my highest aoe skills and hoping the troll will be dead before it manages to attack me. I havent wiped on them once in that cave, but I can't deny they are damn tough. Resources get drained way before I can kill them, so I just keep stunning them throughout the fight hoping my resources will get regenerated a bit while they can't attack me.
So yeah I did a test and I actually did 11,5k total damage to the troll before I managed to kill it, also received 3k damage in that time..So yeah I can imagine many players won't be able to solo them at all..
Loot timer also works on ALL bosses. So if you come out of the cave and decide to do that skull nearby...well, better not forget to stand still for 10 mins before that if you want any reward at all>_>
What I meant was that even if it drops, it's 90% of chance something I won't use for sure (light armor, staffs etc). It wouldn't hurt to add more items to the loot table, but not in the way so you can just farm whole blue set. It should be based on your class -> spec, so it drops that unique item only for you and the people that use same class and spec. It's at least something to begin with, but I'd make it as more complicated process, to make a system recognize what you wear, cause we all know how people in ESO like to play the way they want.0 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're a Templar. You're borked. Learn to Volcanic Rune.
I would if it wasn't spending magicka, I prefer to have my CC using stamina, and my aoe magicka.
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Magdalina✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭magdalina157eb17_ESO wrote: »
And far as drop goes, I think each boss only drops one special item, so not sure what you mean by "get the drop you need". But yeah, would be cool if we could ever actually get the drop now...certainly not the case>.>Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.
You are partly correct on that, however no matter what class / spec you are, you still have to deal that much damage before your resources get drained. But I'm still pretty sure anyone in Light Armor would get 2-shot by a troll if they let them get close enough.
As a Templar S&B Tank I can't really rely on spamming my highest aoe skills and hoping the troll will be dead before it manages to attack me. I havent wiped on them once in that cave, but I can't deny they are damn tough. Resources get drained way before I can kill them, so I just keep stunning them throughout the fight hoping my resources will get regenerated a bit while they can't attack me.
So yeah I did a test and I actually did 11,5k total damage to the troll before I managed to kill it, also received 3k damage in that time..So yeah I can imagine many players won't be able to solo them at all..
Loot timer also works on ALL bosses. So if you come out of the cave and decide to do that skull nearby...well, better not forget to stand still for 10 mins before that if you want any reward at all>_>
What I meant was that even if it drops, it's 90% of chance something I won't use for sure (light armor, staffs etc). It wouldn't hurt to add more items to the loot table, but not in the way so you can just farm whole blue set. It should be based on your class -> spec, so it drops that unique item only for you and the people that use same class and spec. It's at least something to begin with, but I'd make it as more complicated process, to make a system recognize what you wear, cause we all know how people in ESO like to play the way they want.
Hm. I get the idea and why you want that, but dunno how viable it would be. A lot of people switch weapons or maybe even armor around, making it a lot more complicated for the game to analyze. Besides, I have yet to see a dropped loot(veteran group dungeons included) that'd be better than stuff I can craft, so I just deconstruct the drops I get usually...well, it's not a problem lately since I hardy ever get any drops at all with the loot timer.
Far as soloing world bosses goes, it really depends on a boss. Some of them are perfectly soloable if you're careful enough, others are plain impossible even for two, let alone one.0 -
Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭magdalina157eb17_ESO wrote: »magdalina157eb17_ESO wrote: »
And far as drop goes, I think each boss only drops one special item, so not sure what you mean by "get the drop you need". But yeah, would be cool if we could ever actually get the drop now...certainly not the case>.>Ninnghizhidda wrote: »Maybe, just maybe, the "increased difficulty" is primarily due to particular builds rather than the mobs themselves. Like, perhaps the "S&B Templar tank" is absolutely no match for the "pajama & stick fire mage" spewing out uber dps and toasting the "big bad troll" in a few seconds.
In general, as is well documented now, characters relying on melee / weapons / stamina are much weaker than said "mages", especially so in VR zones.
As for rewards, I will certainly agree that most public dungeons are almost a joke, usually you run in, look for the skyshard, perhaps pick up some quest if there is one there, locate the boss, and get the achievement. If you are lucky to score a hit or two on it.
Perhaps the whole thing was "fine tuned" this way to combat the bots, and perhaps it has kinda worked to a degree. On the other hand it has screwed up the normal "legit" player, to the point that it is a complete waste of time to stay in those dungeons for more than a few minutes, or at least until you get the boss kill.
From one extreme to the other, something seems to be a bit rotten with delves these days. Fairly disappointing, they could and should offer a much better experience.
You are partly correct on that, however no matter what class / spec you are, you still have to deal that much damage before your resources get drained. But I'm still pretty sure anyone in Light Armor would get 2-shot by a troll if they let them get close enough.
As a Templar S&B Tank I can't really rely on spamming my highest aoe skills and hoping the troll will be dead before it manages to attack me. I havent wiped on them once in that cave, but I can't deny they are damn tough. Resources get drained way before I can kill them, so I just keep stunning them throughout the fight hoping my resources will get regenerated a bit while they can't attack me.
So yeah I did a test and I actually did 11,5k total damage to the troll before I managed to kill it, also received 3k damage in that time..So yeah I can imagine many players won't be able to solo them at all..
Loot timer also works on ALL bosses. So if you come out of the cave and decide to do that skull nearby...well, better not forget to stand still for 10 mins before that if you want any reward at all>_>
What I meant was that even if it drops, it's 90% of chance something I won't use for sure (light armor, staffs etc). It wouldn't hurt to add more items to the loot table, but not in the way so you can just farm whole blue set. It should be based on your class -> spec, so it drops that unique item only for you and the people that use same class and spec. It's at least something to begin with, but I'd make it as more complicated process, to make a system recognize what you wear, cause we all know how people in ESO like to play the way they want.
Hm. I get the idea and why you want that, but dunno how viable it would be. A lot of people switch weapons or maybe even armor around, making it a lot more complicated for the game to analyze. Besides, I have yet to see a dropped loot(veteran group dungeons included) that'd be better than stuff I can craft, so I just deconstruct the drops I get usually...well, it's not a problem lately since I hardy ever get any drops at all with the loot timer.
Far as soloing world bosses goes, it really depends on a boss. Some of them are perfectly soloable if you're careful enough, others are plain impossible even for two, let alone one.
Well right now Delves are something pointless, you just rush through, kill the boss and get the skyshard. It can do better than that. I'm saving my epic and legendary stuff with which I could craft, mostly I just upgrade gear to blue - though world bosses tend to drop the best blue items in the zone.
As for the world bosses, I've soloed plenty of them in non-veteran zones, actually there was rarely any that couldn't be soloed. But I'm actually surprised you can even solo them in veteran content, when there are some struggling with even skeevers and such.
Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 09:570 -
williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're a Templar. You're borked. Learn to Volcanic Rune.
I would if it wasn't spending magicka, I prefer to have my CC using stamina, and my aoe magicka.
It ain't about what you prefer, it's about what gets the job done. You want to kill trolls and stay alive, you slot Volcanic Rune. You're a Templar, your CC sucks, VR is the solution.
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Bloodfang✭✭✭✭✭williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »williamburr2001b14_ESO wrote: »You're a Templar. You're borked. Learn to Volcanic Rune.
I would if it wasn't spending magicka, I prefer to have my CC using stamina, and my aoe magicka.
It ain't about what you prefer, it's about what gets the job done. You want to kill trolls and stay alive, you slot Volcanic Rune. You're a Templar, your CC sucks, VR is the solution.
I am staying alive lol, with my build I even managed to down a World Boss alone, surely I'm not doing that bad right?
Besides this topic wasn't about builds, but that some Delves are not balanced at all, trolls delve > any other delve
Edited by Bloodfang on 6 June 2014 10:590 -
leandro.800ub17_ESO✭✭✭✭I am VR 4 and cloud solo some word bosses before the DK nerf.
Now looks more real and a bit more balanced but even so bosses look easy in comparison to VR4 zone mobs0 -
sigsergv✭✭✭✭Trolls are easily (but slowly) kited by Javelin (templar ability) and resto staff. Javelin is amazingly good ability that must be learned and actively used. Just throw javelin and restore magicka by heavy attack while troll is stunned, repeat until it's dead. It works for some world bosses too.0