The Real Problem With Stamina Based Builds. And a few suggestions on how to fix it.

Crisscross · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

I agree fully, and I would like ZoS to fix it, I mean they don't really have a choice in the matter if they actually want their game to turn out as they imagined.

CombatBeard · May 2014

The problem is that all class abilities use magicka. Unless they create a class that uses stamina, balance its use in sprinting and increase the power of melee weapons etc, there will never be a real viable option to create a pure warrior or archer.

I would love to create a Conan like character that could carve a wizard in half, but it will never work.

temjiu · May 2014

Gimick wrote: »

I would like to see roll dodge and sprinting completely removed from stamina consumption. Each should have their own resource. For example, you get three roll dodges that regenerate over time after use (regeneration rate would probably be tied to stamina regen rate). Everyone gets the same amount, perhaps a passive in light or medium armor might give you a fourth one.

Sprinting would be a separate bar that is consumed and regenerates over time, similar to how the horses work. Again, the regen of this resource could be linked to stamina regen.

That leaves stamina only being used for weapon abilities, blocking and CC breaking.

Additionally, I think most of the weapon abilities need to drop in stamina costs by a good 10-20%. If all that happened, stamina builds would be balanced and more importantly... fun.

Bingo. And we have a winner. simplest solution. call it energy, call it rev meter, whatever. dodge, block, sprint, all use this resource. Stamina has an impact on it (very similar to how it impacts stamina based skills), but does not control it. As an Isolated resource, every class has access to it, stamina based builds will excell more with it, but stamina based skillsets will not be punished because they chose stamina over magicka. This is truly the best and easiest solution.

the other option i think that would be easy is to take ALL skills that involved damage, and make them magick based. save stamina ONLY for action based items. so nothing uses stamina but dodge, block, interrupt, run. then its not an issue. Balance would be easier with this as they all would have the same standard. no one would suffer by having to choose to buff one over the other just because they like some of the weapon skills over the class skills.

Drasn · May 2014

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

There are 4 classes. If there weren't supposed to be 4 classes we would all have access to every ability there was. Just because people pigeonholed themselves into a pure stamina build for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that the weapon skills are there to compliment your class skills.

There is more magicka/magicka regen/ magicka cost redux abilities/passives/set bonuses than their stamina counterparts because every class's core abilities are based in magicka.

I will agree that the stamina skills need a lesser cost because of so many things drawing from the stamina resource.

Boosting damage, removing cooldowns, or whatever else the stamina theorists can come up with is not going to change the fact that someone who wisely invested in both stamina and magicka is going to have a huge advantage.

This is like Burger King, "have it your way" does not mean you are going to enjoy the burger.

Crisscross · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

There are 4 classes. If there weren't supposed to be 4 classes we would all have access to every ability there was. Just because people pigeonholed themselves into a pure stamina build for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that the weapon skills are there to compliment your class skills.

Still wrong, and it's mentalities like this that are going to damage this game in the long run. They promised diversity, and we get less classes than a game from 1999? That cannot be working as intended.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should build towards both stamina and magicka, but the resource pools are not the issue here. The issue are the skills that you use them for. Right now you can build 100% class skills if you want, or you can build for class skills for dps + weapon skills for utility. But you cannot build for 100% weapon skills, and you cannot build for weapon skill dps + class skill utility. It's simply not viable due to both the weakness of the skills in general and the over-reliance on stamina for breaking CCs. This is a blatant imbalance and just because you can still work around it to clear content doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Instead they have been nerfing every viable stamina based DPS skill (deadly bash and hidden blade) and it's frankly bringing the game in the WRONG direction.

There would be absolutely no downside to bringing stamina builds up to par with magicka skills. People like you that are fine with their magicka builds would and should not be affected at all. The only result would be that people that want to use weapon skills as their mainstay would no longer be left out in the mud.

jelliedsoup · May 2014

The game has really been designed for Min-Maxxers in mind, it's a shame that combat design has been an afterthought and even then still not a priority when NBs complain constantly.

Quaesivi · May 2014

Looking at the other TES games, you know, the actual ones, Stamina (which was named correctly as Fatigue before, Stamina came later on) was used for 3 things, Heavy Attacks, Sprinting and Blocking, which makes actually sense, couse you know, swinging your weapon harder, blocking and running faster eats away at your fatigue, and everything else was based off of Magicka, granted there were no weapon skills but, you get the point. However now we got these, so-called skills that also eats away at our Fatigue (yes, I refuse Stamina), making it practically useless.

What to do here?

-Make Fatigue only for Heavy Attacks, Sprinting and Blocking (also Dodge Roll and CC break in this game), just those.

-Make every other skill cost Magicka, yes, even the weapon skills.

-Either remove the skill points completely and let stats raise on their own depending on the skills you have leveled (a person with heavy armor & 1H/S would get more hp/level than a mage in light armor/staff, for example) but I honestly doubt you can implement that system so an easier choice would be making the Fatigue Consumers remove a fixed amount, not a %, actually, that choice would make more sense even at the system you have at the moment, seriously, how high are you people to make this world "Mage Only"?

-Make 1 single Power stat, you know, the one you have at the moment, and remove both weapon & spell damage from the game (make your damage depend on the weapon/skill you are using and the level you have on the same skill line, I mean like Impulse would be better at Staff level 50, better Flurry at Dual Wield level 50 and son on), and for the love of god, make the time spent in the weapon/class skills worth something. Why a master (level 50) Dual Wielder, for example, has the same damage of any skill as a level 1 Dual Wielder (given the same rank at skills), thats just preposterous.

Yea, thats all I got for now.

Oh and also, not sure if any Developers, Staff Members or the "Upper Management" cares, but by ruining this game, you are kinda ruining the future of the "The Elder Scrolls" title for good. Main reason this people could get players was not because it is a MMO, because it is a "TES" MMO, and you are kinda ruining it at every step.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

Aenthel wrote: »

Looking at the other TES games, you know, the actual ones, Stamina (which was named correctly as Fatigue before, Stamina came later on) was used for 3 things, Heavy Attacks, Sprinting and Blocking, which makes actually sense, couse you know, swinging your weapon harder, blocking and running faster eats away at your fatigue, and everything else was based off of Magicka, granted there were no weapon skills but, you get the point. However now we got these, so-called skills that also eats away at our Fatigue (yes, I refuse Stamina), making it practically useless.

What to do here?

-Make Fatigue only for Heavy Attacks, Sprinting and Blocking (also Dodge Roll and CC break in this game), just those.

-Make every other skill cost Magicka, yes, even the weapon skills.

-Either remove the skill points completely and let stats raise on their own depending on the skills you have leveled (a person with heavy armor & 1H/S would get more hp/level than a mage in light armor/staff, for example) but I honestly doubt you can implement that system so an easier choice would be making the Fatigue Consumers remove a fixed amount, not a %, actually, that choice would make more sense even at the system you have at the moment, seriously, how high are you people to make this world "Mage Only"?

-Make 1 single Power stat, you know, the one you have at the moment, and remove both weapon & spell damage from the game (make your damage depend on the weapon/skill you are using and the level you have on the same skill line, I mean like Impulse would be better at Staff level 50, better Flurry at Dual Wield level 50 and son on), and for the love of god, make the time spent in the weapon/class skills worth something. Why a master (level 50) Dual Wielder, for example, has the same damage of any skill as a level 1 Dual Wielder (given the same rank at skills), thats just preposterous.

Yea, thats all I got for now.

Oh and also, not sure if any Developers, Staff Members or the "Upper Management" cares, but by ruining this game, you are kinda ruining the future of the "The Elder Scrolls" title for good. Main reason this people could get players was not because it is a MMO, because it is a "TES" MMO, and you are kinda ruining it at every step.

A lot of what you said in your post is rather insightful, however a few things - I (and a lot of other people probably) love the fact that buidling for damage is split across two mediums (especially during leveling when it's hard to cap everything) and that your stamina pool affects the damage of one set of abilities, while your magicka pool affects the other set. The same goes for spell damage -> weapon damage, it's fun to be able to invest into spell damage and spell crit and blow things up with magick, or to invest in weapon damage and weapon crit and blow things up with more, physical things (less possible currently)

Quaesivi · May 2014

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Aenthel wrote: »

...

A lot of what you said in your post is rather insightful, however a few things - I (and a lot of other people probably) love the fact that buidling for damage is split across two mediums (especially during leveling when it's hard to cap everything) and that your stamina pool affects the damage of one set of abilities, while your magicka pool affects the other set. The same goes for spell damage -> weapon damage, it's fun to be able to invest into spell damage and spell crit and blow things up with magick, or to invest in weapon damage and weapon crit and blow things up with more, physical things (less possible currently)

Honestly, I'd prefer if that is the way it works as well, but as it seems, all they do is favoring magicka, so I was just giving them a way to buff weapon skills and still keep favoring magicka >_>

Drasn · May 2014

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

There are 4 classes. If there weren't supposed to be 4 classes we would all have access to every ability there was. Just because people pigeonholed themselves into a pure stamina build for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that the weapon skills are there to compliment your class skills.

Still wrong, and it's mentalities like this that are going to damage this game in the long run. They promised diversity, and we get less classes than a game from 1999? That cannot be working as intended.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should build towards both stamina and magicka, but the resource pools are not the issue here. The issue are the skills that you use them for. Right now you can build 100% class skills if you want, or you can build for class skills for dps + weapon skills for utility. But you cannot build for 100% weapon skills, and you cannot build for weapon skill dps + class skill utility. It's simply not viable due to both the weakness of the skills in general and the over-reliance on stamina for breaking CCs. This is a blatant imbalance and just because you can still work around it to clear content doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Instead they have been nerfing every viable stamina based DPS skill (deadly bash and hidden blade) and it's frankly bringing the game in the WRONG direction.

There would be absolutely no downside to bringing stamina builds up to par with magicka skills. People like you that are fine with their magicka builds would and should not be affected at all. The only result would be that people that want to use weapon skills as their mainstay would no longer be left out in the mud.

Again, there are 4 classes. Those 4 classes core abilities are bound to magicka. All other skills(magicka or stamina) are meant as complimentary skills to those core skills for each class. This is the way it was designed, there is no way around that.

Stating that I'm wrong over and over does not make me wrong, I see the game the way it was designed and build/play my toons accordingly. You see the game the way you want it designed and complain when it doesn't meet your expectations.

Is it ideal at the moment? Of course not, but it takes time to create an acceptable balance once an MMO is open pushed out. People are going to abuse things, take advantage of things, create flavor of the month builds, and then those things will get balanced/patched/fixed and the cycle begins again.

There will never be true balance in an MMO, not going to happen. The pendulum will swing in time and stamina heavy builds will become all the rage.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

There are 4 classes. If there weren't supposed to be 4 classes we would all have access to every ability there was. Just because people pigeonholed themselves into a pure stamina build for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that the weapon skills are there to compliment your class skills.

Still wrong, and it's mentalities like this that are going to damage this game in the long run. They promised diversity, and we get less classes than a game from 1999? That cannot be working as intended.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should build towards both stamina and magicka, but the resource pools are not the issue here. The issue are the skills that you use them for. Right now you can build 100% class skills if you want, or you can build for class skills for dps + weapon skills for utility. But you cannot build for 100% weapon skills, and you cannot build for weapon skill dps + class skill utility. It's simply not viable due to both the weakness of the skills in general and the over-reliance on stamina for breaking CCs. This is a blatant imbalance and just because you can still work around it to clear content doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Instead they have been nerfing every viable stamina based DPS skill (deadly bash and hidden blade) and it's frankly bringing the game in the WRONG direction.

There would be absolutely no downside to bringing stamina builds up to par with magicka skills. People like you that are fine with their magicka builds would and should not be affected at all. The only result would be that people that want to use weapon skills as their mainstay would no longer be left out in the mud.

Again, there are 4 classes. Those 4 classes core abilities are bound to magicka. All other skills(magicka or stamina) are meant as complimentary skills to those core skills for each class. This is the way it was designed, there is no way around that.

Stating that I'm wrong over and over does not make me wrong, I see the game the way it was designed and build/play my toons accordingly. You see the game the way you want it designed and complain when it doesn't meet your expectations.

Is it ideal at the moment? Of course not, but it takes time to create an acceptable balance once an MMO is open pushed out. People are going to abuse things, take advantage of things, create flavor of the month builds, and then those things will get balanced/patched/fixed and the cycle begins again.

There will never be true balance in an MMO, not going to happen. The pendulum will swing in time and stamina heavy builds will become all the rage.

specifically with you talking about there being only 4 classes irritates me, there are 4 classes (12 class skill trees) 6 weapon trees, 3 world trees 2 pvp trees 3 guild trees and 3 armor trees that can all be used in combat. A full character consists of the following: The Armor, the weapon(s), the passives and the slotted abilities. Any single character has access to 15 class skills, 30 weapon skills, 13 guild skills, 3 armor skills, 4 pvp skills and up to 3 active world skills (discounting ultimates) - only 5 of these can be slotted at any given time. 68 potential slotted abilities, 30 being weapon skills, 30 of these use stamina.

That's a pretty even mix of spells/weapon abilities and stamina/magicka abilities. To then say weapon abilities and stamina abilities are there to support and supplement your skill abilities (of which you only have fifteen) is to say that of your pool of 53 non class abilities (more than 4 times as many non class abilities than class) you should only take, 1, or 2? I can't be the only one who thinks that's stupid.

It should be viable to roll a character as duel wielder and only roll as a nightblade for the powerful ranged sneak attack engage (teleport strike) and the cheap single target execute, or roll a templar 2h for the AOE damage charge and solar barrage and have it work. Yes you can make a duel wielder nightblade work by relying on teleport strike, killers blade, ember explosion, mirage and the medium armor active dodge, with a ~80% chance for enemies to miss their attacks and then be set off balance for 6 seconds you're quite durable and can repeatedly do high damage power attacks to the off balance opponents to sustain a high dps with an obsurdly high crit chance, 21% in full medium armor, 6%ish from 2 purple crit chance weapons, 10% from duel daggers, 10% from thief stone and 12% from pressure points passive (presuming soulharvest is active ult) is 59% critical strike chance - probably hiting for about 7-800 damage per heavy crit on an of balance opponent - soul harvest and killers blade scaling off of weapon crit to dealing ~ 1k for the execute crit and 1.5k for the ult crit with standard weapon attacks doing 200/crit blah blah blah, but that's only using ONE weapon ability, it hardly feels right to someone who goes into the game wanting to play a duelwielding dervish hacking and slashing his way to victory

Crisscross · May 2014

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Crisscross wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

No. Flurry, cleave, snipe, momentum, whirlwind, volley, poison arrow, twin slashes, reverse slash, silver bolts, and arguably even deadly bash are not meant as complimentary skills. Clearly weapon skillsets were intended to be just as self sufficient as class skill sets with the generous distribution of pure DPS skills throughout as well as utility, so there is a very blatant imbalance going on here.

Yes, you can work around the imbalance to get by, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't also work towards fixing it. Ignoring this completely would effectively leave us with only 4 classes, since everyone would just stick to class skills and staves, and rob us of the myriad of build possibilities we were promised before launch. "Build your own character!" was such a tired mantra pre-launch and they have fallen flat on their face in delivering that promise and it's not okay to just ignore that. Remember, pidgeonholing builds to end up with only 4 real classes would mean ESO is left with even LESS diversity than WoW. Or Everquest ffs.

There are 4 classes. If there weren't supposed to be 4 classes we would all have access to every ability there was. Just because people pigeonholed themselves into a pure stamina build for whatever reason doesn't change the fact that the weapon skills are there to compliment your class skills.

Still wrong, and it's mentalities like this that are going to damage this game in the long run. They promised diversity, and we get less classes than a game from 1999? That cannot be working as intended.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that you should build towards both stamina and magicka, but the resource pools are not the issue here. The issue are the skills that you use them for. Right now you can build 100% class skills if you want, or you can build for class skills for dps + weapon skills for utility. But you cannot build for 100% weapon skills, and you cannot build for weapon skill dps + class skill utility. It's simply not viable due to both the weakness of the skills in general and the over-reliance on stamina for breaking CCs. This is a blatant imbalance and just because you can still work around it to clear content doesn't mean it shouldn't be fixed. Instead they have been nerfing every viable stamina based DPS skill (deadly bash and hidden blade) and it's frankly bringing the game in the WRONG direction.

There would be absolutely no downside to bringing stamina builds up to par with magicka skills. People like you that are fine with their magicka builds would and should not be affected at all. The only result would be that people that want to use weapon skills as their mainstay would no longer be left out in the mud.

Again, there are 4 classes. Those 4 classes core abilities are bound to magicka. All other skills(magicka or stamina) are meant as complimentary skills to those core skills for each class. This is the way it was designed, there is no way around that.

Stating that I'm wrong over and over does not make me wrong, I see the game the way it was designed and build/play my toons accordingly. You see the game the way you want it designed and complain when it doesn't meet your expectations.

Is it ideal at the moment? Of course not, but it takes time to create an acceptable balance once an MMO is open pushed out. People are going to abuse things, take advantage of things, create flavor of the month builds, and then those things will get balanced/patched/fixed and the cycle begins again.

There will never be true balance in an MMO, not going to happen. The pendulum will swing in time and stamina heavy builds will become all the rage.

You're just seeing the game how it IS, not how it was designed. Just saying that this is how the game was intended, over and over, does not make you right.

Sorry, but I've already listed a plethora of weapon skills that are there purely for DPS. Must I list the passives as well? They do not match class dps skills, and they aren't complimentary either. A few of them are situational at best. The system is simply broken, and yet so far they've been pushing the "pendulum" in the wrong direction.