The Real Problem With Stamina Based Builds. And a few suggestions on how to fix it.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

So, presuming that one is smart and actually invests SOMETHING into having enough health to survive certain unavoidable big hits, it is somewhat difficult to softcap stamina as the only way to gain additional stamina is to be a redguard or imperial. In addition to stamina being the hardest attribute to build in the game, blocking, roll dodging and cc breaking all cost stamina.

The problem with this, while being thematically correct really hinders resource management for stamina based players. So in pvp, break cc is vital - as it is just about anywhere, however when i use it, that is HALF of my stamina pool gone. I suddenly can't risk using any of my weapon abilities for fear that i may have to block a powerful ability or roll dodge out of an immobilize. Having invested little into magicka all of my class skills are relatively impotent compared to my weapon skills.

So this is clearly a complex issue and from a thematic standpoint is difficult to alter. I have given it a lot of thought however and would like to share my ideas on the matter.

Suggestion 1: A BASE increase to the costs of roll dodging, blocking, breaking cc, bashing and sprinting with cost decreasing dependent on investment into stamina as well as certain skills. To compensate the effect that would have on magicka based classes - give options for magicka based alternatives (blocking/breaking cc/bashing with a staff cost magicka - have the resto staff passive negate 50%/100% the cost of blocking a spell instead of restoring a small amount of magicka), change bolt escape to work like roll dodge but with a POWERFUL effect on successful dodge of attack (instead of just pretending to be agent smith). Doing this would level the playing field as far as everyone would have a similar amount of Resource management to deal with, instead of magicka casters simply spamming abilities without having to spend a drop of stamina on anything other than blocking/breakingcc/rolldodging/bashing

Suggestion 2: sensible magicka based alternatives: have the stealth resistance mage light morph allow you to break cc by double tapping block, or any magicka based break cc alternative. have a passive in the world tree that everyone has access to 'protective ward' - magicka based block that can be bound to a key, and maybe instead of giving more spells the 'interupt' effect, have the stamina cost of bashing restored when knocking down an enemy by exploiting the interrupt. - This would bring stamina investors back into a level playing field of resource management by being able to leave the magicka pool mostly untouched for use in saving themselves.

Suggestion 3
Make the cost of breaking cc in medium armor cheaper, change the roll dodge passive in the medium armor tree to read "Refunds 50/100% stamina cost of roll dodge when successfully avoiding an attack, (i mean you already do a little dance when it happens - so the game knows when you do so) also putting a small cool down on roll-dodge so that one can't simply spam it in pvp to never take damage and never run out of stamina, refund the cost of bashing when exploiting the opening created. This is my favorite suggestion - mainly because of the satisfaction one would have from playing skillfully as well as keeping to the flavor of a leather bound rogue fighting clever and fighting fast.

meghuskoow

I liked suggestion 2 most. Interesting ideas.

madangrypally

Another option:
Create a passive in a skill tree that switches the resource for roll dodging, blocking, breaking cc, bashing and sprinting.

Normal Person A: Blocks attack at the cost of 300 stamina.
Person B with new passive: Blocks attack at the cost of 300 magicka.

Can think of it as a person using there Chi (magicka) to do the above instead of there stamina.

Would even be better if they added an entire new skill line in the world tree for stamina users. Passives that boost stamina builds to be compared to magicka builds and active abilities that supplement that. Can make it a Monk tree and have it be an unarmed tree. (all can get the first passive that switches resource cost as it will be the first one available at rank 1).

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

madangrypally wrote: »

Another option:
Create a passive in a skill tree that switches the resource for roll dodging, blocking, breaking cc, bashing and sprinting.

Normal Person A: Blocks attack at the cost of 300 stamina.
Person B with new passive: Blocks attack at the cost of 300 magicka.

Can think of it as a person using there Chi (magicka) to do the above instead of there stamina.

I considered this, however some people who like to chop and change their build on the fly may want to conserve their magicka for spells sometimes, which would require that passive to be a toggle - which seems like it would have to be an active ability unless it can be changed from the character page or something.

n.englishb14_ESO

Is this problem only in PvP? Most combat in PvE is about burst, and stamina usage reflects that. Maybe just tweak the costs for PvP, and leave PvE alone.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

n.englishb14_ESO wrote: »

Is this problem only in PvP? Most combat in PvE is about burst, and stamina usage reflects that. Maybe just tweak the costs for PvP, and leave PvE alone.

It really depends on the situation, I know DWers have stamina problems and as a 2h user soloquesting can relegate me to only using magicka abilities.

Birfreben_Kinghelred

I don't like the idea of magicka to block/dodge/cc break. I feel like this has the potential to be abused and disrupt current game balance too much. I think they should just increase the amount of stamina gained from points invested, almost in line with health.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

bothnutz wrote: »

I don't like the idea of magicka to block/dodge/cc break. I feel like this has the potential to be abused and disrupt current game balance too much. I think they should just increase the amount of stamina gained from points invested, almost in line with health.

the problem with this is that with correct skill point usage s/s blocking can provide a 1:1 stamina - hp ratio in block mitigation - 2k hp 2k stam would not be hard with what you suggested - hold block and spam magicka abilities >>> have effectively 4k hp while spamming magicka damage

Harakh

Just make Stamina reg cap higher

Shaun98ca2

I think the best idea is to make Stamina based abilities themselves better. Providing more damage.

But at the same time TOO much of an increase in damage will shift the balance regardless of Stamina being required for roll dodging, blocking, breaking cc, bashing and sprinting.

Hilgara

Its stupid that someone with a hard capped stamina pool can dodge/roll etc exactly the same number of times as someone with the minimum stamina.

Drasn

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

Shaun98ca2

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

I would say ALL abilities are there to complement your Light/Heavy Attacks.

Learning when and how to use. Stamina based builds are harder to learn. More rewarding???? Who knows?

Drasn

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Suggestion 4: Realize that stamina based abilities are there to compliment your magicka based abilities and build your character as such.

I would say ALL abilities are there to complement your Light/Heavy Attacks.

Learning when and how to use. Stamina based builds are harder to learn. More rewarding???? Who knows?

I don't know. A well built character has an infinite pool of magicka. I don't think I've used a light/heavy attack since I was VR1. IMO L/H attacks are okay for leveling but that's it.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

thomas, your points actually make me angry, what you're saying is that the only way to build a character well is to focus on a magicka pool and magicka sustain and that that's OKAY. Well I hate to break it to you, but it's not. If I wanted to be a caster I'd stack magicka, wear light armor and use only class abilities. The fact that it's not currently viable to stack stamina, use medium armor and use stamina based abilities (mostly due to having to use so many of one's major resources on basic game mechanics) sucks.

Drasn

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas, your points actually make me angry, what you're saying is that the only way to build a character well is to focus on a magicka pool and magicka sustain and that that's OKAY. Well I hate to break it to you, but it's not. If I wanted to be a caster I'd stack magicka, wear light armor and use only class abilities. The fact that it's not currently viable to stack stamina, use medium armor and use stamina based abilities (mostly due to having to use so many of one's major resources on basic game mechanics) sucks.

You can stack both, you aren't meant to use one and completely ignore the other. My templar is overcharged on both health and magicka and less than 100 points from stamina softcap. I'm overcharged on health and magicka regen and nearly overcharged on stam regen.

You have 2 resource pools that you are meant to take advantage of.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas, your points actually make me angry, what you're saying is that the only way to build a character well is to focus on a magicka pool and magicka sustain and that that's OKAY. Well I hate to break it to you, but it's not. If I wanted to be a caster I'd stack magicka, wear light armor and use only class abilities. The fact that it's not currently viable to stack stamina, use medium armor and use stamina based abilities (mostly due to having to use so many of one's major resources on basic game mechanics) sucks.

You can stack both, you aren't meant to use one and completely ignore the other. My templar is overcharged on both health and magicka and less than 100 points from stamina softcap. I'm overcharged on health and magicka regen and nearly overcharged on stam regen.

You have 2 resource pools that you are meant to take advantage of.

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

Kronz

Do like other games and have sprint bar that is independent of stamina as well as roll dodge. Wild star does this and it works well. You have 2 dodge rolls that regen over a short period of time once you have used one and a sprint bar. You can give medium armor a perk like 20% bigger sprint bar and 3 dodge rolls instead of two.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

Kronz wrote: »

Do like other games and have sprint bar that is independent of stamina as well as roll dodge.

no but other games have a system that allows for some level of compensation for that, like 0 cost abilities for physical damage style moves on a longer cooldown or lower initial damage higher sustained etc. But instead EsO has a system where the drain on one's stamina is at least double for the magicka equivalent build yet offering less damage.

Drasn

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas, your points actually make me angry, what you're saying is that the only way to build a character well is to focus on a magicka pool and magicka sustain and that that's OKAY. Well I hate to break it to you, but it's not. If I wanted to be a caster I'd stack magicka, wear light armor and use only class abilities. The fact that it's not currently viable to stack stamina, use medium armor and use stamina based abilities (mostly due to having to use so many of one's major resources on basic game mechanics) sucks.

You can stack both, you aren't meant to use one and completely ignore the other. My templar is overcharged on both health and magicka and less than 100 points from stamina softcap. I'm overcharged on health and magicka regen and nearly overcharged on stam regen.

You have 2 resource pools that you are meant to take advantage of.

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

Templar
Breton
49 Points into health
Mage Stone
Blue V5 Health/Stam food
Infused on Chest, Pants, Helm, Shield
Divines on Boots, Gloves, Belt, Shoulders
Purple gear: 3 piece Seducer, 3 piece Lamae, 3 piece Hunding's, 3 piece Warlock
Purple/Blue enchants: Magic to overcharge, then health to overcharge, rest stam

This is the setup I use when soloing.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

so, you invest into stamina as your last (least favored) stat then?

Zarkaz

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

White enchantz r gud too

Drasn

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

so, you invest into stamina as your last (least favored) stat then?

For my templar, yes. On my sorc I treat them equally. Two different styles of play.

Drasn

Zarkaz wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

White enchantz r gud too

Nice, the problem is that quite a few people have rather odd specs that leave them with near-base magicka and magicka regen and generously overcharged stamina and stamina regen or vice versa.

I try to tell everyone not to put all their eggs in one basket.

mousekime111rwb17_ESO

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Zarkaz wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

White enchantz r gud too

Nice, the problem is that quite a few people have rather odd specs that leave them with near-base magicka and magicka regen and generously overcharged stamina and stamina regen or vice versa.

I try to tell everyone not to put all their eggs in one basket.

I've invested attribute points fully into stamina and then neglected to add any additional enchants, focused fully on + hp enchants and i'm no where near softcapped on anything

Drasn

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

thomas.k.grayb14_ESO wrote: »

Zarkaz wrote: »

mousekime111rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I would like to know how you manage to nearly overcharge every single one of your stats short of golden quality enchants on all of your armor peices with infused on every piece and eating food whilst using an appropriate standing stone....

White enchantz r gud too

Nice, the problem is that quite a few people have rather odd specs that leave them with near-base magicka and magicka regen and generously overcharged stamina and stamina regen or vice versa.

I try to tell everyone not to put all their eggs in one basket.

I've invested attribute points fully into stamina and then neglected to add any additional enchants, focused fully on + hp enchants and i'm no where near softcapped on anything

Character Level? Gear Level? Gear Quality? Armor Type? Set bonuses? Passives used? Mundus Used? Traits on gear? Food buffs?

All of these things and how they interact with one another can be used to your advantage.

zeuseason

Suggestion: remove stamina as the required resource for these abilities.

Axewaffle

Guys, I wouldn't stress too much about this. I would place a safe bet that when the nightblade buffs and fixes come around next patch stam builds will get a look into, whether directly or indirectly, weapon abilities and some of the core shortcomings of nightblade lie with the broken form of stamina skills. I expect to see the next patch address a lot of balance concerns, the game is at a point where they will be very keen to appease their playerbase, and the general consensus at the moment is that game balance is horrible, this comes ahead of bot complains also.

Just sit back and wait to see what they do, I am confident that the next patch will do something.. If not I and many, MANY other people will be leaving.

Harakh

Sit back in this game costs money dont forget this

Gimick

I would like to see roll dodge and sprinting completely removed from stamina consumption. Each should have their own resource. For example, you get three roll dodges that regenerate over time after use (regeneration rate would probably be tied to stamina regen rate). Everyone gets the same amount, perhaps a passive in light or medium armor might give you a fourth one.

Sprinting would be a separate bar that is consumed and regenerates over time, similar to how the horses work. Again, the regen of this resource could be linked to stamina regen.

That leaves stamina only being used for weapon abilities, blocking and CC breaking.

Additionally, I think most of the weapon abilities need to drop in stamina costs by a good 10-20%. If all that happened, stamina builds would be balanced and more importantly... fun.

subecsanur

The whole attribute points is also messed up, being the novice NB when i started I actually placed more than half of my points into Stamina with the rest split into Magicka and Health.

So strange to find as I lvl up to 50 I still end up having more magicka than I do Stamina, what is the point of investing into it when the benefits are so minuscule.