Automatic "pseudo-guilds," to let antisocial players interact

spinality · May 2014

Many players are reluctant to find and join a guild, or to trade randomly within a zone; these both have risks/problems and can be immersion-breaking. I don't like choosing guilds either from random invites or generic web searches. Yet it would be so useful if we could conduct limited commercial interaction with willing strangers -- in the same way that we can jump in and help somebody who is getting slagged by a monster.

I suggest creating automatic pseudo-guilds open to all, like these: 1) a "chamber of commerce" in each major city, and/or 2) a "market" of nearby players within some small radius, and/or 3) a "graduating class" for all characters who became their current level within a particular zone. Other mechanisms could be designed. The goal is to have between a few dozen and a few hundred applicable members. They would be like open-membership clubs, with a store available to members. These stores might only offer a limited number of sales slots per character, so that normal guilds would keep an advantage. But something like this would seem a good compromise between the current guild structure, which seems to be 95% economic and only 5% social, and the single-auction-house model (the problems of which have been discussed at length and are a different issue). I would be much more likely to trade with nearby players who just helped me beat some nasty boss than with a random group of guild members who I found due to a random invite.

I expect these ideas have been talked out before but I'm interested to hear what others might think.

Catflinger · May 2014

This makes me think of the corporation system in EVE Online. Any player not in a player-run corporation is automatically placed in an NPC-run corp. There aren't any benefits to these corps such as a bank, just a small social component. But the idea is similar.

spinality · May 2014

A related idea: When you form a group for a dungeon or whatever, make it easy/natural to do some commerce within the group. Also, provide an easy/natural way for the members to stay in touch. A "group history" might do the job here. Let me keep track of who's grouped with me and provide a way to send messages to and dialogue with people in my history. Really, just revamping the messaging, chat, and history mechanisms would go a long way to making social interaction more natural. As opposed to the current situation, where we can't even reply to a message without using an add-on.

Moonclaw · May 2014

Agreed . I dont like being forced to join a guild to be able to trade effectively and there is no way to even tell which guilds are active in my time zone etc since you cant even switch guild tags on

someuser · May 2014

For all the guys/gals who may feel timid joining a guild:

I'm not criticizing but the guilds in ESO are super impersonal. No one cares if you log on, log off, join, leave, talk, not talk... You don't need to go about it from the perspective that you are trying to find that "perfect" fit. They are just miniature seller's clubs.

You want to find the ones with as many active members as possible so you increase your chances of having a semi-useful guild store. You get to pick from FIVE guilds and none of them are tired to a fraction OR character.

You can also set-up chat filters so if you don't want guild spam, you can create chat boxes that filter all that out.

Take my advise and don't over-think it

spinality · May 2014

someuser wrote: »

I'm not criticizing but the guilds in ESO are super impersonal. No one cares if you log on, log off, join, leave, talk, not talk... Take my advise and don't over-think it

Thanks and good points. However, a) there are (must be) lots of timid newish users, and we really need for them to get maximum fun from their TESO experience, and keep paying their subscriptions. So anything to lower the bar for them is a good thing -- not nerfing the game, but perhaps nerfing the economic/social side; and b) just because there's little penalty in signing up with unknown guilds, there's also little obvious benefit from any given unknown guild, and I see zero benefit from spending my time cruising around trying to check them out. I've been in a number of guilds so far: One or two are pretty good, but most of them are worthless.

So...I'm not trying to over-think it, but rather asking "Can't we do a better job at this?" Analogy: A few add-ons are so useful that we say "How did I manage before?" I expect that, eventually, we will have either the right social/economic tools, or the right way to find good guilds, and then we'll say "How did I manage before?" I'd like for that to happen soon.

KerinKor · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

Automatic "pseudo-guilds," to let antisocial players interact

Either antisocial doesn't mean what you think it means or else you're being deliberately derogatory about those not wishing to deal with guild drama in the way you seem to be content with.

spinality · May 2014

KerinKor wrote: »

Either antisocial doesn't mean what you think it means or else you're being deliberately derogatory about those not wishing to deal with guild drama in the way you seem to be content with.

Ah. Well I wasn't being derogatory, just tongue-in-cheek. I myself am rather antisocial and proud of it. I do believe I understand what it means.

I am NOT content with guild drama (not sure what gave you that idea), and so I would prefer to have other mechanisms that would allow me to enjoy the game experience more completely without being forced to tackle the current guild social scaffolding.

wrlifeboil · May 2014

I don't think it's a matter of catering to "anti-social" players as it is to players who don't think guilds are necessary to do what is mostly soloable content.

People don't want to be forced into guilds. It creates resentment. This is a game, not a homework assignment or a job. If it's fun to join a guild, people will join guilds.

Nox_Aeterna · May 2014

Haha , that does seem quite interesting , i support this , it would be really nice.
I never had much trouble finding a guild , and the one i actually take part in (i dont really consider my 4 trade centers , guilds , i dont even talk or care about more than their AHs) is far from impersonal , people talk all the time and form groups for tons of different stuff.

While true i dont usually take part in said groups :P , im enjoying playing ESO alone , even if i prefer to talk with other in the guild chat.

Loxy37 · May 2014

You already have one, its called Zone Chat

I think its a good idea and well they are at it, they should create a dedicated help chat and WTB/WTS. It would be a simple thing that prolly wouldn't take 5 minutes for a programmer to code in as most the code is there already.

clocksstoppe · May 2014

why the *** is this needed? if they are antisocial it means it is their choice to not be part of guilds or communities. there is nothing to fix

Aeradon · May 2014

I can see a lot of flaws, such as what if I don't stay in the zone for too long and I'm still charged a listing fee?

Don't worry, ESO solution is open guild stores. Solo players are free to buy from these stores later on. You will still sell stuff at near 0 gold to NPC, unless you choose to participate. I can't picture lone wolf haggling, so yeah, play it like the ES series then, don't sell.

rowdog · May 2014

No thank you. I know your intentions are good but pushing truly anti-social players into guilds is the quickest way to get us to unsub.

"Timid newbies" are a whole other population and I agree that it would nice to find a way for established guilds to reach out to them, but I'm still against forcing anyone into a social or trade guild.

spinality · May 2014

clocksstoppe wrote: »

why the *** is this needed? if they are antisocial it means it is their choice to not be part of guilds or communities. there is nothing to fix

Well in my case I am antisocial because I'm not enjoying the current economic and social interfaces enough. (Well, that, and the fact that I'm mostly a solo PvE explorer.) As an earlier poster said, "If it's fun to join a guild, people will join guilds" -- and if it's too much work or not enough fun, then people won't. But I think modest infrastructure improvements would let more people interact in a casual way for commerce and communication.

Again, here's my analogy: It's very easy, natural, and fun to jump into a melee and help out folks who are getting their butts whipped. It should be just as easy to find (say) a flea market, and use it to buy/sell/trade in a way that is more satisfying and immersive that dealing with an NPC vendor.

Naturally, there would have to be a different approach to membership and listing fees. Like: You're a member of the flea market for 6 hours, there's just a small listing fee, and if your stuff doesn't sell you get it right back. Kind of like putting a painting into a co-op gallery show. The show ends quickly, and if your stuff didn't sell. then too bad. This would encourage people to list things at low prices for quick sale. It might encourage guilds to start having little bake sales every night at 9PM or whatever. where you can show up and look for bargains.

That's just one approach of course and not deeply thought out. But it seems to me that our virtual economy should have the same diversity of markets. social encounter contexts, and valid marketing strategies that we find in the real world.

spinality · May 2014

rowdog wrote: »

No thank you. I know your intentions are good but pushing truly anti-social players into guilds is the quickest way to get us to unsub.

"Timid newbies" are a whole other population and I agree that it would nice to find a way for established guilds to reach out to them, but I'm still against forcing anyone into a social or trade guild.

You must be misunderstanding me. because I am in complete agreement with your statement. We absolutely do not want to push people into guilds. I am a good example of an anti-social player. I don't want my Elder Scrolls time to turn into a glorified Facebook visit.

Right now, economic factors make some level of guild involvement hard to avoid. So I think we should be trying to make the guild universe more useful and interesting. Instead of being part of "the grind." i.e. an annoying and non-immersive mechanical requirement, guild interaction and other economic activity should be a positive aspect of the environment. We shouldn't compel people to use it, but there's no reason it has to be a headache.

daneyulebub17_ESO · May 2014

At first, I LOVED this idea. Sounded like a great option. For those who ask why would it be needed?--- uh, because Guilds are necessary in this game if you want to partake of trading via any other means than direct transactions--which is kind of the point of the non-social or shy players dilemma. Duh.

It wouldn't have to be pushed on you either--just an optional guild that you can join on your own, without an invite from a player. Just like the Fighter's guild, etc. Give us an NPC market representative in each big town that lets you join it. Done. Completely optional, and you don't have to go through the process of dealing with invites, wondering if people are watching what you're contributing, etc to get the commerce benefits of a guild.

The problem I realized, is if it was truly global--pretty much a guild that almost everyone was a part of--it would decimate all the other market guilds, and basically be very close to a global AH (OK, a global store) that the devs of this game are obviously trying to get away from.

As much as I like the idea as a means of players who aren't "joiners" or are shy or whatever to take part in the guild commerce perks without having to interact, I'm afraid, in the end, it would make the game more anti-social for everyone by providing the very world-wide, anonymous market the makers are trying to avoid in this game (which I agree with!).

So, sadly, I can't endorse it as a good idea as its getting to close to what amounts to an end-run around the "no AH" philosophy.

spinality · May 2014

daneyulebub17_ESO wrote: »

The problem I realized, is if it was truly global--pretty much a guild that almost everyone was a part of--it would decimate all the other market guilds, and basically be very close to a global AH (OK, a global store) that the devs of this game are obviously trying to get away from.

Right, right, that's why for this to work it would have to be self-localizing. It wouldn't be a market representative shared by everybody with an account. It would have to be a whole series of little marketing clubs, each with a small bulletin board of sales items. Grouping could be by player level, game geography, real world geography, character race/class/etc. -- heck, by the first three letters of the player name. As long as each little community is kept small enough, it should be free of the global auction house problem. And it could be complementary to the guild sales system, by using different sales mechanics. For example, instead of 30-day listings, we get 5-day listings.

I agree that it would need some thought and analysis. But there has to be some middle ground between a GAH and a bazillion independent guilds.

Sakiri · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

KerinKor wrote: »

Either antisocial doesn't mean what you think it means or else you're being deliberately derogatory about those not wishing to deal with guild drama in the way you seem to be content with.

Ah. Well I wasn't being derogatory, just tongue-in-cheek. I myself am rather antisocial and proud of it. I do believe I understand what it means.

I am NOT content with guild drama (not sure what gave you that idea), and so I would prefer to have other mechanisms that would allow me to enjoy the game experience more completely without being forced to tackle the current guild social scaffolding.

The word you are loking for is *asocial*.

Antisocial means youre intentionally disruptive to society.

Asocial folks just dont want to deal with it.

And I havent joined other guilds nor have I a need for player to player commerce.

spinality · May 2014

Sakiri wrote: »

The word you are loking for is *asocial*.

Thank you for the pedagogy (though I thought "tongue-in-cheek" would have explained matters). Glad to hear that you haven't found a need for interplayer commerce, but that has not been everybody's experience.

Sakiri · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

Sakiri wrote: »

The word you are loking for is *asocial*.

Thank you for the pedagogy (though I thought "tongue-in-cheek" would have explained matters). Glad to hear that you haven't found a need for interplayer commerce, but that has not been everybody's experience.

Referring to people that dont want to put up with other players' bullshiz as "antissocial" is another sign of hatred of nonconformist behavior. As if not wanting to be all butterfly with everyone is inherently bad or destructive.

You have commerce channels. Join a trade guild and shut gchat off/list yourself offline or spam /zone. Theres even third party sites thatll do it for you.

This thread's suggestion is unnecessary.

Jeremy · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

Many players are reluctant to find and join a guild, or to trade randomly within a zone; these both have risks/problems and can be immersion-breaking. I don't like choosing guilds either from random invites or generic web searches. Yet it would be so useful if we could conduct limited commercial interaction with willing strangers -- in the same way that we can jump in and help somebody who is getting slagged by a monster.
.

I don't believe the problem has anything to do with antisocial behavior.

When people are in the mood to be social they rather do something that's actually fun with others. Commercial interaction as you so delicately put it is rarely if ever a form of real socializing. It's something that is done more out of necessity to acquire what is needed.

So that's the true problem here - and why so many people dislike this game's economic system. It's not a lack of socializing. It's just that most people simply have better things to do with their time than haggle over prices for make-believe items or jump from guild to guild on some hopeless quest to find a store that sells them what they need.

There are just way better ways to socialize than this. And most of us have discovered them. So I think it's time we moved past this narrative that an unwillingness to be social has anything to do with why this game's economic system doesn't suit a lot of us. Because I don't believe it does.

Sakiri · May 2014

Jeremy wrote: »

spinality wrote: »

Many players are reluctant to find and join a guild, or to trade randomly within a zone; these both have risks/problems and can be immersion-breaking. I don't like choosing guilds either from random invites or generic web searches. Yet it would be so useful if we could conduct limited commercial interaction with willing strangers -- in the same way that we can jump in and help somebody who is getting slagged by a monster.
.

I don't believe the problem has anything to do with antisocial behavior.

When people are in the mood to be social they rather do something that's actually fun with others. Commercial interaction as you so delicately put it is rarely if ever a form of real socializing. It's something that is done more out of necessity to acquire what is needed.

So that's the true problem here - and why so many people dislike this game's economic system. It's not a lack of socializing. It's just that most people simply have better things to do with their time than haggle over prices for make-believe items or jump from guild to guild on some hopeless quest to find a store that sells them what they need.

There are just way better ways to socialize than this. And most of us have discovered them. So I think it's time we moved past this narrative that an unwillingness to be social has anything to do with why this game's economic system doesn't suit a lot of us. Because I don't believe it does.

If anything the haggling would *be* immersion.

But I agree with you. Even irl I can sell crap via consignment. Have someone else sell for me. In EQ2 the broker system is acutally called "consignment system". Drop off, let the npc list/sell for you. Its how I sell goods here too out of game. I have 0 desire for a personal business relationship with people. Id rather pay an npc to.

rotiferuk · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

Yet it would be so useful if we could conduct limited commercial interaction with willing strangers

The only type of "commercial interaction" I am interested in is killing things, looting their mutilated, burning bodies and selling said loot to the nearest NPC vendor.

rotiferuk · May 2014

spinality wrote: »

A related idea: When you form a group for a dungeon or whatever, make it easy/natural to do some commerce within the group. Also, provide an easy/natural way for the members to stay in touch. A "group history" might do the job here. Let me keep track of who's grouped with me and provide a way to send messages to and dialogue with people in my history. Really, just revamping the messaging, chat, and history mechanisms would go a long way to making social interaction more natural. As opposed to the current situation, where we can't even reply to a message without using an add-on.

Better still, why not turn the option on just as the group starts doing battle with the dungeon boss? I'm sure all group members would be more than happy to get wiped just so they could trade tat with each other.

spinality · May 2014

Thanks to everybody who has commented here. I really wasn't sure how I felt about it all. and so I thought a little discussion might clarify things. I'm enjoying many aspects of the game a lot...but the guild/guild-store aspect has been underwhelming, and I've found it helpful to discuss it. I am basically of the asocial/antisocial/explore-kill-sell mindset; but I've been surprised to find that crafting doesn't suck as much as I expected, and so I have been trying to visualize how noncombat interaction might also be more satisfying.

Here's one thing that struck me during this exchange: The basic concept of the in-game guilds is OK, but since EVERYBODY belongs to the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild, they don't really function like the unions/federations/clubs they are supposed to represent. It's not really a private club if world+dog is a member. If we were in a realistic universe, then these guilds would have meaningful LOCAL chapters; and moreover our in-game interactions would NOT be with the Guildmaster, who would be far too busy to talk with every new recruit, but with some VIP NPC at the local guild hall.

So following this idea: I would enjoy a Fighters Guild with realistic local chapters that have swap meets, consignment desks, field trips, etc. -- where dropping in would put me into a room with a handful of people, on the same numerical scale that I find in random dungeons etc. Somebody might say "anybody feel like a trip to Spindleclutch?" or "Who has glphys?" Yes, I know we can do this with LFG and WTB chats, but I would be far more likely to participate if I'm standing next to the person saying it. Some kind of local chapter / local bank queue / swap meet / beer hall mechanism would be more like an enhanced zone chat with a visual component. I find today's zone chat amusing to watch at times, but I have little interest in participating in this spammy medium.

A local chapter/room/etc. would need to be scaled down from the universe of actual players...in the same way other in-game experiences are scaled down, so we don't meet 500 others in the same place. (Along similar lines, suppose we had this option when talking to a bank clerk: "Trade with other bank customers in line." Everybody standing there at the teller's desk could have the option of trading items with each other.)

Again, thanks for all the constructive thoughts, which have helped me figure out more about what I'd like to find in the commerce side of the game.

Darrett · May 2014

I'm currently in no guilds. There is no reason to be in one. The social aspect of this game is so minor as to make it unnecessary to join. In past games, I've joined guilds once I get to know groups of players, rather than forcing the issue by joining the first random guild I see in /zone and hoping they turn out to be more than terrible.

If there was more grouping content, more interaction between players, etc., then I probably would spend enough time in contact with the same people to develop a relationship to the point where joining a guild would make sense.

As it is, I'm probably never going to see the same player twice, let alone interact with them enough that I would want to join their guild.

Shillen · May 2014

Darrett wrote: »

I'm currently in no guilds. There is no reason to be in one. The social aspect of this game is so minor as to make it unnecessary to join. In past games, I've joined guilds once I get to know groups of players, rather than forcing the issue by joining the first random guild I see in /zone and hoping they turn out to be more than terrible.

If there was more grouping content, more interaction between players, etc., then I probably would spend enough time in contact with the same people to develop a relationship to the point where joining a guild would make sense.

As it is, I'm probably never going to see the same player twice, let alone interact with them enough that I would want to join their guild.

You'll find in VR levels that having friends is very helpful. But I agree with you for levels 1-50.

LIQUID741 · May 2014

zone chat is like going to the mall on saturday during free Monster drink give-a-way.