Enemy players should not be able to live indefinitely inside a captured keep.

Taarente · September 3

I think keeps need a mechanic to deal with players who simply remain inside an enemy-controlled keep indefinitely after it has been captured.

My suggestion:

If an enemy player remains inside a keep for more than 2 minutes after the keep changes ownership, all surviving keep guards are granted Town Guard-style immunity and begin actively hunting that player.

At that point the guards should converge on them rather than standing around waiting to be individually pulled or ignored. The intention isn't necessarily that the guards instantly kill the player, but that they make remaining inside the keep increasingly untenable until the player either escapes or dies.

This would still leave plenty of room for legitimate play:

Players trapped during a keep flip would have time to fight their way out.
A Nightblade could still hide temporarily and attempt an escape.
Players could still disrupt repairs or cause trouble during the immediate aftermath of a siege.
It wouldn't affect normal fighting while the keep is contested.

What it would prevent is the situation where one or several extremely tanky players remain inside an enemy keep for five, ten or fifteen minutes, running around towers and courtyards while half the defending faction wastes its time chasing them.

At some point the keep has been captured. The battle is over. The NPC garrison should actually behave like a garrison and remove hostile troops who refuse to leave.

Two minutes seems generous enough for escape while still putting an end to the endless "chase the unkillable tank around our own keep" minigame.
Call it guards revenge.

Necrotech_Master · September 3

or they could just fix balance issues so people actually die easier lol

one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance is because people cant really do this troll tactic to the level of effectiveness as in grey host/blackreach

Radiate77 · September 3

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

or they could just fix balance issues so people actually die easier lol

one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance is because people cant really do this troll tactic to the level of effectiveness as in grey host/blackreach

I keep reading this, “one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance” yet every time I pop in that campaign on Xbox NA it is completely dead.

If our server has rejected that idea entirely, I can’t imagine it’s any better on other platforms.

Necrotech_Master · September 3

Radiate77 wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

or they could just fix balance issues so people actually die easier lol

one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance is because people cant really do this troll tactic to the level of effectiveness as in grey host/blackreach

I keep reading this, “one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance” yet every time I pop in that campaign on Xbox NA it is completely dead.

If our server has rejected that idea entirely, I can’t imagine it’s any better on other platforms.

i go to vengeance before i go to GH or BR

even since they added BR back thats still basically dead all the time too

vengance always "looks" dead because it has a much higher pop cap for one, and i also believe that too many people prefer playing GH because they WANT the imbalance and being carried by set procs to feel OP

Taarente · September 3

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

or they could just fix balance issues so people actually die easier lol

one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance is because people cant really do this troll tactic to the level of effectiveness as in grey host/blackreach

They have spent the lasty 10 years "fixing" balance issues. Anyway the point is the guards finally get to kick the crap out of zippy mcsorctank.

BaronSamedl · September 3

Taarente wrote: »

I think keeps need a mechanic to deal with players who simply remain inside an enemy-controlled keep indefinitely after it has been captured.

My suggestion:

If an enemy player remains inside a keep for more than 2 minutes after the keep changes ownership, all surviving keep guards are granted Town Guard-style immunity and begin actively hunting that player.

At that point the guards should converge on them rather than standing around waiting to be individually pulled or ignored. The intention isn't necessarily that the guards instantly kill the player, but that they make remaining inside the keep increasingly untenable until the player either escapes or dies.

This would still leave plenty of room for legitimate play:

Players trapped during a keep flip would have time to fight their way out.
A Nightblade could still hide temporarily and attempt an escape.
Players could still disrupt repairs or cause trouble during the immediate aftermath of a siege.
It wouldn't affect normal fighting while the keep is contested.

What it would prevent is the situation where one or several extremely tanky players remain inside an enemy keep for five, ten or fifteen minutes, running around towers and courtyards while half the defending faction wastes its time chasing them.

At some point the keep has been captured. The battle is over. The NPC garrison should actually behave like a garrison and remove hostile troops who refuse to leave.

Two minutes seems generous enough for escape while still putting an end to the endless "chase the unkillable tank around our own keep" minigame.
Call it guards revenge.

Or something easier for the devs.Take the insta kill on enemy players inside when faction gates close, apply it to keeps, and set on a two min delay after the defense reward trigger.

Necrotech_Master · September 3

BaronSamedl wrote: »

Taarente wrote: »

I think keeps need a mechanic to deal with players who simply remain inside an enemy-controlled keep indefinitely after it has been captured.

My suggestion:

If an enemy player remains inside a keep for more than 2 minutes after the keep changes ownership, all surviving keep guards are granted Town Guard-style immunity and begin actively hunting that player.

At that point the guards should converge on them rather than standing around waiting to be individually pulled or ignored. The intention isn't necessarily that the guards instantly kill the player, but that they make remaining inside the keep increasingly untenable until the player either escapes or dies.

This would still leave plenty of room for legitimate play:

Players trapped during a keep flip would have time to fight their way out.
A Nightblade could still hide temporarily and attempt an escape.
Players could still disrupt repairs or cause trouble during the immediate aftermath of a siege.
It wouldn't affect normal fighting while the keep is contested.

What it would prevent is the situation where one or several extremely tanky players remain inside an enemy keep for five, ten or fifteen minutes, running around towers and courtyards while half the defending faction wastes its time chasing them.

At some point the keep has been captured. The battle is over. The NPC garrison should actually behave like a garrison and remove hostile troops who refuse to leave.

Two minutes seems generous enough for escape while still putting an end to the endless "chase the unkillable tank around our own keep" minigame.
Call it guards revenge.

Or something easier for the devs.Take the insta kill on enemy players inside when faction gates close, apply it to keeps, and set on a two min delay after the defense reward trigger.

that wouldnt stop a ball group running around in the upper area of a keep, because there would be constant deaths feeding new ticks

Four_Fingers · September 3

Or, stop rushing off and sweep the keep for enemies before leaving.
If your alliance let a whole ball group hide, it's on them. 😄

CannedChicken · September 3

I'll agree that they shouldn't be survive in an enemy keep, but only if you agree that you shouldn't be able to repair the doors of the keep while there are still enemy players inside it.

bmnoble · September 3

Wouldn't do much, all those difficult to kill players would do, is kite the guards instead of fighting them many already do that as they want player kills not waste time on the guard and drag out the process of you actually needing to fully capture and secure the keep.

Simply having the capture points change hands, isn't truly capturing a location, you need to sweep it and wipe out the enemy forces within the walls only when you have secured it is it truly captured, the way the capture flags work currently just incentive's people to rush off to the next keep or resource instead of finishing securing the current location.

SeaGtGruff · September 3

So, if an enemy player is successfully hiding inside the walls of a keep, how do the guards know someone is there? If they're just searching for anyone who might be hiding, do they stop searching once they have found and killed the player, or do they continue searching whether or not anyone is hiding?

Anyway, enemy players cannot hide indefinitely, because if they log out of the game while inside an unfriendly keep, they will be back at their base when they log back in. So unless they never log out, they cannot hide there indefinitely.

katanagirl1 · September 4

I understand the frustration, when those ball groups just run around the walls and even if you don’t follow them and get killed, you still feel like you are being farmed.

Just the other day this situation worked in my favor when a group quickly took one of our home keeps and I got in the back door just before it flipped. I was able to hide and the group was more concerned with moving on to the next keep, and another player and I were able to siege the inner door until others showed up to siege the outer door. Sometimes you need to wait until things cool down inside or you will be killed by a couple of players who haven’t left yet.

I would not want to be denied the chance to take back the keep.

BardokRedSnow · September 4

two minutes? Nah, maybe do an hour, at best. If at all.

Two minutes is silly, its a war, nightblades are a thing. You should feel unsafe outside of the designated safe zones which are not keeps.

AlnilamE · September 4

Have you considered sweeping the keep properly for enemy players before you move on?

There are not that many places to hide in there.

Zyaneth_Bal · September 4

Taarente wrote: »

I think keeps need a mechanic to deal with players who simply remain inside an enemy-controlled keep indefinitely after it has been captured.

My suggestion:

If an enemy player remains inside a keep for more than 2 minutes after the keep changes ownership, all surviving keep guards are granted Town Guard-style immunity and begin actively hunting that player.

At that point the guards should converge on them rather than standing around waiting to be individually pulled or ignored. The intention isn't necessarily that the guards instantly kill the player, but that they make remaining inside the keep increasingly untenable until the player either escapes or dies.

This would still leave plenty of room for legitimate play:

Players trapped during a keep flip would have time to fight their way out.
A Nightblade could still hide temporarily and attempt an escape.
Players could still disrupt repairs or cause trouble during the immediate aftermath of a siege.
It wouldn't affect normal fighting while the keep is contested.

What it would prevent is the situation where one or several extremely tanky players remain inside an enemy keep for five, ten or fifteen minutes, running around towers and courtyards while half the defending faction wastes its time chasing them.

At some point the keep has been captured. The battle is over. The NPC garrison should actually behave like a garrison and remove hostile troops who refuse to leave.

Two minutes seems generous enough for escape while still putting an end to the endless "chase the unkillable tank around our own keep" minigame.
Call it guards revenge.

Immunity is out of the question but it would be nice if the guards were made more “alive” in some way, like had aggro range inside a keep increased and leash removed. When the gate is being breached and they just stand some 30m away doing nothing just feels off

Oblivion_Protocol · September 4

I don’t think the people suggesting that players properly sweep the keeps after capturing them understand just how many viable hiding spots there are. And that’s without invisibility. With it, no one is catching you unless they get lucky. I once spent a solid ten minutes avoiding people in a recently flipped keep on my NB just to see if I could.

Frankly, at the very least, keep guards should have automatic stealth detection at all times, if not be granted the ability to chase out enemy players after two minutes.

merevie · September 4

People could also learn how to kill other players in Pvp.

Erickson9610 · September 4

When the gates to an enemy scroll temple close, you'll instantly die if you're too close to their scroll. There's already precedent for this suggestion in-game.

Panderbander · September 4

Erickson9610 wrote: »

When the gates to an enemy scroll temple close, you'll instantly die if you're too close to their scroll. There's already precedent for this suggestion in-game.

I have a gorgeous video of this happening to our old Howlpack group up on YouTube. Suddenly, dead. Was amazing lol

SerafinaWaterstar · September 4

Interesting suggestion.

This is not about people hiding (have done this many times; group gets in and hides & waits for most to leave before taking keep from within. This is valid gameplay & should not be affected. Players should learn to check the keeps before heading off.)

This is about how a few players, usually either a ‘zippy mcsorctank’ 🤣 or dksuperbad, who just run around a tower to troll players. They have no interest in taking the keep, and if you ignore them they will get bored & go elsewhere to troll.

They are annoying, and extremely hard to kill, but players have to learn that if they are not able to kill them within, say, 5 minutes, they need to walk away.,

But if there are a couple of them, they can be problematic and actually take the keep.

I would not suggest the guards actively hunt them down, as that would affect other game play. I would suggest that the guards are given equal shields, healing & skills, and be able to hit harder?

I would also suggest that the damage done to players by siege needs to be increased significantly. Cold fire ballistas used to be deadly, now most players can take multiple hits without a dent in their health. That should not be.

SerafinaWaterstar · September 4

merevie wrote: »

People could also learn how to kill other players in Pvp.

Have you tried fighting a zippy mcsorctank or a dktankboi by yourself? The ones with the huge health, mega shield & seemingly endless resources plus do damage? If you have, please post evidence & guidance for the rest of us to use. Most would be extremely grateful, as shown by the many posts on here about these type of players.

Chrlynsch · September 4

Once a keep's walls have been fully repaired and the keep is unlit, Ritual Ward objectives become available in the keep's towers.

Defenders can interact with and complete the wards to restore the keep's protective magic.

* 3 Ritual Wards must be completed to activate the effect.
* Each ward is a short channel/interaction that can be interrupted by enemies.
* Once all three are completed, the keep becomes warded.
* Enemy players remaining inside the keep's walls begin taking Oblivion damage every second.
* The damage starts relatively low and scales the longer an enemy remains inside, similar in concept to how slaughterfish punish players for staying in the water.
* Leaving the keep's walls stops the damage.
* The effect could either reset after the keep is recaptured or require the wards to be completed again.

The goal isn't necessarily to instantly kill attackers, but to make holding the interior of a repaired keep increasingly dangerous unless the attacking force commits to taking the keep or retreats.

It would create an additional defensive gameplay loop:

Repair the walls → complete the wards → establish the keep's defenses → force attackers to fight on your terms.

It also gives the towers an actual strategic purpose beyond being places to stand and shoot from.

The key balance lever I'd use is scaling damage rather than a flat damage-over-time. That creates a grace period for attackers to fight, revive, reposition, etc., while making prolonged occupation increasingly untenable.

BardokRedSnow · September 4

Erickson9610 wrote: »

When the gates to an enemy scroll temple close, you'll instantly die if you're too close to their scroll. There's already precedent for this suggestion in-game.

This involves a whole elder scroll though. Although the temple still closes without one, the barrier is special and intended for its protection. Which reminds me of why this shouldn't be a thing; Being able to successfully hide in a keep and steal a scroll is part of the game, it gives clever and more sneaky players a way to contribute.

SneaK · September 4

Why do yall constantly ask to remove layers from PvP????

We don’t need a new mechanic to deal with this, there are skills, potions, etc to detect hidden players.

They have to flag the keep to flip it. The mechanic is already there to make them siege.

As annoying as it can be, I wouldn’t want to see nerfs to actual tactics.

Sidewaves89 · September 4

My suggestion:

You kill enemy players so they won't stay inside your keep. If the only thing you can fight is keep doors, well, that's on you.

Ingenon · September 4

I don't think that ZOS should modify ESO to kill your opponents in PvP for you.

If you want the enemy player in your keep dead, then I think you should kill them.

If you can't kill them, then I guess they will stay there until they log out.

ketsparrowhawk · September 4

If you can't get the enemies out it's not your keep

Personofsecrets · September 4

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

or they could just fix balance issues so people actually die easier lol

one of the reasons i prefer playing in vengeance is because people cant really do this troll tactic to the level of effectiveness as in grey host/blackreach

Also targeting. If targeting is going to constantly becoming blocked by terrain and line of site, then that just pointlessly extends survival times. Bad targeting is one of the worst parts about pvp

SeaGtGruff · September 5

Erickson9610 wrote: »

When the gates to an enemy scroll temple close, you'll instantly die if you're too close to their scroll. There's already precedent for this suggestion in-game.

But the fact that enemy players who are inside the base gates do NOT get instantly killed if they are NOT too close to the scroll is also a precedent for NOT preventing players from hiding "indefinitely" inside of a keep.

Reginald_leBlem · September 5

You want the NPCs to fight players for you so you don't have to? That’s not in the spirit of the game.

No one is forcing you to chase a few tower trolls around. Just leave them and go somewhere else. If you can't kill them just let them have it.
Or, bring more pressure next time.

Oblivion_Protocol · September 5

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

You want the NPCs to fight players for you so you don't have to? That’s not in the spirit of the game.

No one is forcing you to chase a few tower trolls around. Just leave them and go somewhere else. If you can't kill them just let them have it.
Or, bring more pressure next time.

If it’s not in the spirit of the game, why are the NPC guards there to begin with? I’ve seen players get killed by guards with no input from other players whatsoever. Should they get do-overs because it’s not in the spirit of the game?

At the very least, guards should have stealth detection. The problem isn’t about tower trolls who are there to run. It’s about the people who hide in a corner for 20 minutes, then come out to harass defenders and burn siege when their alliance attacks the keep. Or steal the scroll and zoom away when no one is anywhere near it to get it back.