Add a ramping cost to blocking while Battle Spirit is active

Erickson9610 · September 1

Roll dodging has a ramping cost so that you cannot infinitely sustain dodging attacks, blink abilities (like Streak or Vault) have a ramping cost so you cannot keep outrunning attacks, but blocking doesn't have a ramping cost to prevent people from infinitely blocking attacks to have all incoming damage reduced to the double or single digits (!!)

The answer is not to pierce the absurd amount of block mitigation that is possible to have in PvP, because there are several healing, shielding, and sustain skills that can be cast without dropping block, but rather a targeted nerf to the sustain of maintaining block. If dodging and outrunning attacks have ramping costs, blocking should also have a ramping cost that increases each time an attack is blocked, but only while Battle Spirit is active.

A ramping cost would ensure that we can sustain block in short bursts, but not block indefinitely. This can have a short cooldown window (like maybe 1-2 seconds) of not blocking for blocking to return to normal cost. Some builds genuinely never drop block, and it's not something the Battle Spirit nerfs to healing over time or damage shield strength can fix on their own.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Abstraqt · September 1

Great idea

Firstmep · September 1

Something should be done about blocking for sure.
The amount of mitigation it provides is simply too much for how long ppl can hold it. Only for pvp ofc.

Gupitoos · September 1

Great idea or reduce the amount of overall mitigation it grants.

Kev_Mate · September 1

This would solve a lot of problems in pvp. Great idea

HunterDawn · September 1

I bet some streamers will start panicking when they see this thread.😅

madmufffin · September 1

I think just halving the amount mitigated by blocking under battle spirit is an easier solution and probably a lot more reasonable to get coded in either. Easily having 90% mitigation on block is just way too much.

Luneca · September 1

"Pro" Sorc chiming in:

Add a ramping cost to blocking? Are you serious? Seriously, this would do nothing besides increase the value of escape tolls like streak, invis, and... Ah, hold up. This is a buff for me and a nerf for everyone else, isn't it?

Yeah, increase the cost of blocking! Right on! I agree, concur, and otherwise support a ramping cost in block. Block si too powerful; too useful in too many cases and quickly becoming the ultimate tool to avoiding damage to the point that you can hold block and never need to roll (No one better bring up the fact that this is true for Streak! Don't do it! Okay?).

Block is literally a 1 button solution to many problems except in the case that you get CC'd. But with enough HP stacked, you can hold block and never be threatened even by multiple people on the right build.

Since DoT damage is a joke, Oblivion damage has been nerfed, etc. there's blocking tanks out there with ZERO counter besides siege and overwhelming them. The game's balance on the defensive end is extremely hyperbolic and poorly balanced with holding block being a major component of that.

And nobody better bring up Bulwark Ruination as a counter -- no, unless that set can stack enough to make block damage reduction to 0, it's a waste of a slot when other mitigation it cannot touch is being stacked on top of block and that effectively cancels out the set's value vs something even as bad as slotting Sloads in 2026.

Yeah, block is a real problem and has been for a long time. And it's part of why DKs are a massive issue too. Nerf block.

...

Wait, hold up. If they nerf block does that mean that I will take more damage over an interval of time when I tap block and sprint or use skills...NO. Wait, hold up! Don't nerf block! Block is fair! Block is fair!

Guys stop! You are going to get fun nerfed at this rate! Stop it! Stop! Please...?

Turtle_Bot · September 1

Definitely needs something done, but idk what would solve it.

There's also the issue of just spam tapping block, letting it go every restore tick for the tick then back to holding/tapping it for essentially full block mitigation (which is absurd amounts of mitigation) without any of the downsides.

I get that tapping block to "parry" a big hit is good skill expression and it should remain in some form, but the 2 second tick rate on the resource restore has made it far too easy to maintain this "parry" for significantly longer than it should since it's much easier to not lose the restore ticks.

Not sure a ramping cost would fix this issue either, maybe some trade-offs for frequent/perma blocking such as damage reduces the longer/more frequently block is held/used (up to a point so it's not a total wipe of damage), something to punish the current over-reliance on block and block casting that is a big contributor to the current tank meta.

Like I said at the start, idk what can be done specifically to balance block in PvP, and it would 100% have to be tied to battle spirit to not affect PvE, but the number of and the sizes of the block mitigation bonuses, and ease of use of it, has gotten very problematic, especially with sustain being buffed lately.

acanca · September 1

The thing most dont get about block and shields is that a big part of what makes them so good is that they automatically make getting critted impossible on top of their defensive traits. So i agree, the block mitigation on block should be reduced in pvp and both shield and block should not immediately make it impossible to be hit by critical hits.

Because continuous applications of both via stuff like calculated defense and perma blocking by dks basically shuts down a big part of offense automatically

VinnyGambini · September 1

Each consecutive second of blocking +50% cost.

Also, it's worth considering adding stamina cost to jumping. Jumping + blocking is another exploit to bypass slower movement while blocking.

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Please check this idea.

Bashev · September 1

The biggest offender is block casting heals. SImple solution while blocking decrease the healing done (not healing recieved) by 75%.

Wuuffyy · September 1

acanca wrote: »

The thing most dont get about block and shields is that a big part of what makes them so good is that they automatically make getting critted impossible on top of their defensive traits. So i agree, the block mitigation on block should be reduced in pvp and both shield and block should not immediately make it impossible to be hit by critical hits.

Because continuous applications of both via stuff like calculated defense and perma blocking by dks basically shuts down a big part of offense automatically

99.9% certain they removed the whole ‘cannot crit’ shields rule when they gave them your armor mitigation a while back. A blocking player can also be crit but more to the overall point, bigger number means mitigation percentages work harder to bring it down especially when you build for it- in another words, it almost doesn’t matter if the player blocking is building appropriately in the slightest.

Bashev · September 1

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

The thing most dont get about block and shields is that a big part of what makes them so good is that they automatically make getting critted impossible on top of their defensive traits. So i agree, the block mitigation on block should be reduced in pvp and both shield and block should not immediately make it impossible to be hit by critical hits.

Because continuous applications of both via stuff like calculated defense and perma blocking by dks basically shuts down a big part of offense automatically

99.9% certain they removed the whole ‘cannot crit’ shields rule when they gave them your armor mitigation a while back. A blocking player can also be crit but more to the overall point, bigger number means mitigation percentages work harder to bring it down especially when you build for it- in another words, it almost doesn’t matter if the player blocking is building appropriately in the slightest.

Any damage that is blocked cannot be critical. Dots cannot be blocked that can cirt on blocking player.

Bushido2513 · September 1

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest offender is block casting heals. SImple solution while blocking decrease the healing done (not healing recieved) by 75%.

I think the ramping might be the simpler solution because it has less potential for workaround or unforseen interactions. There's less calculations as well I'd think since healing has more modifiers to consider. Healing has done, received, powered, mending, vitality, etc. Blocking has reduction, mitigation percentage, and one or two others I maybe can't think of

Blocking in pvp is a mitigation that needs to have reasonable limits to how long you can use it. There should also be a need to really spec into it if you're wanting more of it.

I don't want to eliminate play styles but I do want there to be reasonable limits.

Bashev · September 1

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest offender is block casting heals. SImple solution while blocking decrease the healing done (not healing recieved) by 75%.

I think the ramping might be the simpler solution because it has less potential for workaround or unforseen interactions. There's less calculations as well I'd think since healing has more modifiers to consider. Healing has done, received, powered, mending, vitality, etc. Blocking has reduction, mitigation percentage, and one or two others I maybe can't think of

Blocking in pvp is a mitigation that needs to have reasonable limits to how long you can use it. There should also be a need to really spec into it if you're wanting more of it.

I don't want to eliminate play styles but I do want there to be reasonable limits.

But rmaping cost will not be a problem for block casting heals when you are on low life. So it will not change anything. People who abuse blocking now are good players who anyway do not hold block more than 3 seconds.

Wuuffyy · September 1

Bashev wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

acanca wrote: »

The thing most dont get about block and shields is that a big part of what makes them so good is that they automatically make getting critted impossible on top of their defensive traits. So i agree, the block mitigation on block should be reduced in pvp and both shield and block should not immediately make it impossible to be hit by critical hits.

Because continuous applications of both via stuff like calculated defense and perma blocking by dks basically shuts down a big part of offense automatically

99.9% certain they removed the whole ‘cannot crit’ shields rule when they gave them your armor mitigation a while back. A blocking player can also be crit but more to the overall point, bigger number means mitigation percentages work harder to bring it down especially when you build for it- in another words, it almost doesn’t matter if the player blocking is building appropriately in the slightest.

Any damage that is blocked cannot be critical. Dots cannot be blocked that can cirt on blocking player.

2.33 (50 base + 83) crit damage. Mitigation on this player is the default 20% (1320) crit resists and I believe 6 impen (12% crit resistance) amounting to roughly 32 crit damage reduction. (yes, I know- random Null procs)

2.33 (my crit damage) - roughly 32 crit damage (their reduction)= roughly 2x.

Just spamming surprise attack, numbers are just about 'doubling' at random:

https://www.xbox.com/play/media/pEtkfyjqxR

Bashev · September 1

Intresting. Do you have combat log screenshot? Did ZoS change that?

Wuuffyy · September 1

Bashev wrote: »

Intresting. Do you have combat log screenshot? Did ZoS change that?

I can get you one if you want to hop on PTS with me. Console is unfortunately pretty limited add-on wise.

Bashev · September 1

Now i saw the video, maybe they changed it. Which is nice.

Savagejack · September 1

Give this man a medal. This would be a glorious pvp change.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · September 1

Lets also add ramping cost to being in WW form in PVP too.

Wuuffyy · September 1

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Lets also add ramping cost to being in WW form in PVP too.

~just a wee bit of anger and on-a-tangent~

I recommend visiting any of the many PTS threads to pick up where others have left off.

ceruulean · September 1

This would only work as long as you could control what to block, such as a skill instead of a light attack, and if ESO had clear visual clarity on skills. However, ESO is spammy and a random light attack should not drain as much or more stamina than a hard hitting skill. Ramping block cost is just going to be a bad gameplay experience.

Wuuffyy · September 1

ceruulean wrote: »

This would only work as long as you could control what to block, such as a skill instead of a light attack, and if ESO had clear visual clarity on skills. However, ESO is spammy and a random light attack should not drain as much or more stamina than a hard hitting skill. Ramping block cost is just going to be a bad gameplay experience.

Could somehow make the increased costs translate to theoretical damage taken.

The more damage an attack would have dealt, the higher the cost to block that attack.

Could look like a net gain for blocking basics and other small hits whereas blocking a full damage build/s for an extended period of time would be more punishing.

I see issues with latency (more calculations for anyone blocking) and potential 'exploitation' from a "zergling" with a full damage stacked build and group buffs using this to rapidly drain opponents though as that opens this possibility up.

Just a thought/concept though.

Bushido2513 · September 1

Bashev wrote: »

Bushido2513 wrote: »

Bashev wrote: »

The biggest offender is block casting heals. SImple solution while blocking decrease the healing done (not healing recieved) by 75%.

I think the ramping might be the simpler solution because it has less potential for workaround or unforseen interactions. There's less calculations as well I'd think since healing has more modifiers to consider. Healing has done, received, powered, mending, vitality, etc. Blocking has reduction, mitigation percentage, and one or two others I maybe can't think of

Blocking in pvp is a mitigation that needs to have reasonable limits to how long you can use it. There should also be a need to really spec into it if you're wanting more of it.

I don't want to eliminate play styles but I do want there to be reasonable limits.

But rmaping cost will not be a problem for block casting heals when you are on low life. So it will not change anything. People who abuse blocking now are good players who anyway do not hold block more than 3 seconds.

It's fine to block cast a heal, people roll dodge cancel heaks. They just don't keep doing it because of the cost ramp.

So sure, get a block heal off here and there. I just need you to stop blocking long enough to get off a well timed stun or high damage combo.

The point isn't to stop them from block casting heals just like it isn't to stop roll dodge he's healing. The point is to create more damage opportunities.

Also this works as it scales up because in a 1v1 it makes each player have to think and gives counters. In a battle at scale you can still be a block tank but even when you build into it you hit a ceiling.

Bushido2513 · September 1

ceruulean wrote: »

This would only work as long as you could control what to block, such as a skill instead of a light attack, and if ESO had clear visual clarity on skills. However, ESO is spammy and a random light attack should not drain as much or more stamina than a hard hitting skill. Ramping block cost is just going to be a bad gameplay experience.

Players already control what they want to block. Yes there are lots of big and and small attacks coming at you but just like with roll dodge, you need to decide when to block. If you're holding block you need to be built for it or have another another reason but if you're just holding block without thinking then unless you're a block tank you're asking to be run out of resources.

I've blocked as both a damage dealer and a block tank and they are and should be fairly different block choices.

A ramping cost just means the damage dealer needs to use block wisely for big hits, spec bow, dawn breaker, leap, meteor, block heals, etc. You need to read the environment and your placement. If you're not trying to do all that I get it but block shouldn't be as forgiving if roll dodge and other things aren't.

For a block tank it just means you'll be able to hold block because of your build but still eventually run out if you're not playing carefully.

I'm currently working on a roll dodge build and I appreciate that the game requires me to think a bit and not just go crazy with it

XVestigeXx · September 1

This is a great idea. I think the ramping cost should probably be a bit slow to ramp up at least at first but then start to ramp up fast, still fantastic idea to fix a real annoying problem in pvp

ceruulean · September 1

Lol this is a terrible idea. As long as sorc and NB have access to their escape tools, ramping block cost will punish classes that don't, like necros and templar. DK has stam sustain that bypasses the 0 stam block limitation and shouldn't be considered the standard for permablock. If Core of Flame was changed so that 1) one morph costs stam to reatore mag only, or 2) morph that cost mag to restore stam only 3) same as Vengeance so it increases stam recovery temporarily but still 0 when blocking, then we wouldn't be having problems with permablock DK

Otherwise if you're going to add ramping cost to block, then necros need a skill to nullify 100% AOE damage for 1 second and templars should get a parry that 100% blocks all direct damage for 1 second to improve their survivability. Of course these skills should have ramping costs too.

Abstraqt · September 1

ceruulean wrote: »

Lol this is a terrible idea. As long as sorc and NB have access to their escape tools

*Which also have a ramping cost

ceruulean · September 1

Abstraqt wrote: »

ceruulean wrote: »

Lol this is a terrible idea. As long as sorc and NB have access to their escape tools

*Which also have a ramping cost

So classes that have 2 separate ramping cost, extremely good damage mitigation escape tools that they can alternate between will be superior to classes that only have 1. Try making a better argument next time.