Is this a joke?

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

True story. Anyway, I don't even care about HA, LA, or any of this anymore... lol. But come on... when I read "HA does 0 DPS", I had to ask if this was actually a joke.
At this point, I'm just watching ESO burn and wondering what they're going to come up with next. lol
Anyway, it's always good to see a player like you, with:
"7x IR, 7x GH, 8x TTT, 5x GS, 7x DB, 3x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 2x CB, 1x Unchained"
(My God, I had to copy-paste that list. If I had to type all of that by hand, I'd probably unlock a new achievement.)
telling everyone else: "Just adapt".

Sorry for being good at the game I guess. Totally my bad for knowing how to adapt to play different builds on different classes.

It's all good, no hard feelings. I forgive you!
But what about the HA players who simply love that playstyle? They're not meta players like you. They don't care about chasing the meta like you do. They just want to play the game with the build they enjoy.
And since we're talking about solo dungeons, I believe they're perfectly entitled to enjoy the content too.
Or should we ask them to apologize for not being as “competent” as you? Nah... just screw them, right?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

It is possible for two things to be true.
Fact 1: this is an exclusionary challenge, as everyone on the PTS thread is pointing out. It is not a good challenge. It essentially means that the people who play beam builds have no difference, but heavy attack builds are completely shut out.

Fact 2: there are a lot of Heavy Attack players who refuse to consider playing any other playstyle while using ‘disabilities’ to justify that petulance, who don’t even realize that heavy attack builds are actually not super accessible (because holding down a single button for extended periods can trigger them), and who refuse to consider playing other builds which are more accessible like beam builds (which do not require weaving and can allow for players to cast one skill every 5 seconds with no clicks inbetween).

"there are a lot of Heavy Attack players who refuse to consider playing any other playstyle"
I agree. Just screw them. They don't even deserve to play this game anymore.
(This is just my own opinion. Clearly, ZoS sees things differently, and it seems like ZoS is very happy to have these kinds of players playing their game.) ....apparently they're just supposed to adapt or get out of the way

frogthroat · August 24

YffresTrill wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Has this been tested?

Because for example Pyrebrand does say "light attacks cause..." it doesn't say anything about how much damage the LA must do for it to proc. I would guess it would do 0 direct damage and that ~1k DOT (unbuffed).

If the LA is completely turned off, then it shouldn't increase ulti either. Surely that's not the case. If it does "damage" but the value is 0, then 0! should proc Caluurion.

Pyrebrand does not work. Light attacks do not trigger the set proc. I tested it.

Ulti gain does still work though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8522941#Comment_8522941

(This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.)

Ok, then it's probably a mistake on ZOS end. Might be that when MS fired all the experienced people, the devs who take care of this now have no experience in how things are calculated. I hope the next PTS update will fix this. Because of course proc sets should work, just like they work when using Velothi.

YffresTrill · August 24

frogthroat wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Has this been tested?

Because for example Pyrebrand does say "light attacks cause..." it doesn't say anything about how much damage the LA must do for it to proc. I would guess it would do 0 direct damage and that ~1k DOT (unbuffed).

If the LA is completely turned off, then it shouldn't increase ulti either. Surely that's not the case. If it does "damage" but the value is 0, then 0! should proc Caluurion.

Pyrebrand does not work. Light attacks do not trigger the set proc. I tested it.

Ulti gain does still work though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8522941#Comment_8522941

(This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.)

Ok, then it's probably a mistake on ZOS end. Might be that when MS fired all the experienced people, the devs who take care of this now have no experience in how things are calculated. I hope the next PTS update will fix this. Because of course proc sets should work, just like they work when using Velothi.

I do think this may have been a mistake or at least poorly thought through. Velothi is mechanically different because it reduces damage of light and heavy attacks by 99% rather than removing them entirely. It appears that set procs that trigger off these attacks work off there having been some form of damage done, whereas ult gain triggers simply off the action of firing the attack?

I would like if ZOS would weigh in their intent here so this argument can at least be put to rest.

frogthroat · August 24

YffresTrill wrote: »

This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.

frogthroat wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Has this been tested?

Because for example Pyrebrand does say "light attacks cause..." it doesn't say anything about how much damage the LA must do for it to proc. I would guess it would do 0 direct damage and that ~1k DOT (unbuffed).

If the LA is completely turned off, then it shouldn't increase ulti either. Surely that's not the case. If it does "damage" but the value is 0, then 0! should proc Caluurion.

Pyrebrand does not work. Light attacks do not trigger the set proc. I tested it.

Ulti gain does still work though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8522941#Comment_8522941

(This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.)

Ok, then it's probably a mistake on ZOS end. Might be that when MS fired all the experienced people, the devs who take care of this now have no experience in how things are calculated. I hope the next PTS update will fix this. Because of course proc sets should work, just like they work when using Velothi.

I do think this may have been a mistake or at least poorly thought through. Velothi is mechanically different because it reduces damage of light and heavy attacks by 99% rather than removing them entirely. It appears that set procs that trigger off these attacks work off there having been some form of damage done, whereas ult gain triggers simply off the action of firing the attack?

I would like if ZOS would weigh in their intent here so this argument can at least be put to rest.

Yeah, the 99% reduction would be good enough. Proc sets still work, but the LA damage would be in practice non-existent. When a boss has, say, 2,100,000 health, chipping away 30 points at a time is practically the same as not doing any damage. No one is going to be sitting there light attacking the boss 70,000 times.

YffresTrill · August 24

frogthroat wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.

frogthroat wrote: »

YffresTrill wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Has this been tested?

Because for example Pyrebrand does say "light attacks cause..." it doesn't say anything about how much damage the LA must do for it to proc. I would guess it would do 0 direct damage and that ~1k DOT (unbuffed).

If the LA is completely turned off, then it shouldn't increase ulti either. Surely that's not the case. If it does "damage" but the value is 0, then 0! should proc Caluurion.

Pyrebrand does not work. Light attacks do not trigger the set proc. I tested it.

Ulti gain does still work though.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8522941#Comment_8522941

(This thread is full of bait and ad hominem nonsense on both sides. Maybe let's keep things civil before this gets moderated.)

Ok, then it's probably a mistake on ZOS end. Might be that when MS fired all the experienced people, the devs who take care of this now have no experience in how things are calculated. I hope the next PTS update will fix this. Because of course proc sets should work, just like they work when using Velothi.

I do think this may have been a mistake or at least poorly thought through. Velothi is mechanically different because it reduces damage of light and heavy attacks by 99% rather than removing them entirely. It appears that set procs that trigger off these attacks work off there having been some form of damage done, whereas ult gain triggers simply off the action of firing the attack?

I would like if ZOS would weigh in their intent here so this argument can at least be put to rest.

Yeah, the 99% reduction would be good enough. Proc sets still work, but the LA damage would be in practice non-existent. When a boss has, say, 2,100,000 health, chipping away 30 points at a time is practically the same as not doing any damage. No one is going to be sitting there light attacking the boss 70,000 times.

And if they want to do that, power to them.

AdonisJorge · August 24

So much hate on HA builds lol, some things never change really

HatchetHaro · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

True story. Anyway, I don't even care about HA, LA, or any of this anymore... lol. But come on... when I read "HA does 0 DPS", I had to ask if this was actually a joke.
At this point, I'm just watching ESO burn and wondering what they're going to come up with next. lol
Anyway, it's always good to see a player like you, with:
"7x IR, 7x GH, 8x TTT, 5x GS, 7x DB, 3x PB, 4x SBS, 1x MM, 1x US, 2x CB, 1x Unchained"
(My God, I had to copy-paste that list. If I had to type all of that by hand, I'd probably unlock a new achievement.)
telling everyone else: "Just adapt".

Sorry for being good at the game I guess. Totally my bad for knowing how to adapt to play different builds on different classes.

It's all good, no hard feelings. I forgive you!
But what about the HA players who simply love that playstyle? They're not meta players like you. They don't care about chasing the meta like you do. They just want to play the game with the build they enjoy.
And since we're talking about solo dungeons, I believe they're perfectly entitled to enjoy the content too.
Or should we ask them to apologize for not being as “competent” as you? Nah... just screw them, right?

I never said anything about playing the meta. At the same time, do you expect to be able to get Misery's Master on your Heavy Attack build without being hard carried by others? Some achievements and challenges are already inherently locked-out for certain builds and playstyles, because they are supposed to be very challenging and balanced accordingly to a high skill standard; how are these Solo Dungeon Misfortunes any different?

You can still do the Solo Dungeons! Just don't pick that Misfortune! This is a multiplayer game: you are free to enjoy the content that you can do, but you are not entitled to be able to clear all content at all difficulties without putting the work in.

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

I never said anything about playing the meta. At the same time, do you expect to be able to get Misery's Master on your Heavy Attack build without being hard carried by others? Some achievements and challenges are already inherently locked-out for certain builds and playstyles, because they are supposed to be very challenging and balanced accordingly to a high skill standard; how are these Solo Dungeon Misfortunes any different?

You can still do the Solo Dungeons! Just don't pick that Misfortune! This is a multiplayer game: you are free to enjoy the content that you can do, but you are not entitled to be able to clear all content at all difficulties without putting the work in.

Oh, believe me. I won't even set foot in there, and I'm not going to waste my time with this nonsense (I don't even care about Normal. Why should I?). What the hell?
I'm here to play and enjoy the game. I won't be part of this kind of experience. Or maybe... maybe I'll just buy a carry. Do you sell them? I bet this time, pro players like you are going to sell a lot of them.
Maybe not you, but come on... did you see the opportunity here before everyone else? You've already started talking about "carryings" and all that, so you clearly understand where this is going.
Why put in the effort when I can just pay someone who is "competent" enough to do it for me? But since it's a solo dungeon... oh boy. I can already see what's going to happen to the materials too.
Well... nah. I'll leave this funny little experience to the players who actually enjoy that kind of challenge.

SilverBride · August 24

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

AdonisJorge · August 24

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

Not on all difficulties, most on 1 or 2 misfortunes. Btw i still think that the HA misfortune is an horrible design decision

YffresTrill · August 24

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

I thought it was too, and I'm sure that is part of the motivation, but considering some of the design choices, that's obviously not all there is to it.

For one thing, they did not choose to start with dungeons which aren't already mechanically soloable. MHK and MoS already are both soloable. Then, instead of putting a normal/vet distinction like group dungeons, trials, and arenas have, they decided to add this strange Misfortunes mechanic.

On top of that, they have introduced a new currency that can be gained only from doing solo dungeons. So it's obvious that there is an additional motivation here, namely, creating grind.

SilverBride · August 24

YffresTrill wrote: »

On top of that, they have introduced a new currency that can be gained only from doing solo dungeons. So it's obvious that there is an additional motivation here, namely, creating grind.

Please... not another currency...

LPapirius · August 24

oddarin wrote: »

That's called challenge for a reason, ya know...

That's what I was thinking when I read the OP. Plus, it's an optional mode. Don't like it, don't play it.

Oceanchanter · August 24

oddarin wrote: »

That's called challenge for a reason, ya know...

God forbid you pick a misfortune that challenges you (or, in my case, is not much of a hindrance for that matter) because someone else doesn't like it.

My DoT build: I consent
ESO: I consent
2HA players: I don't!

Valkanos · August 24

SilverBride wrote: »

I thought the whole point of the solo dungeons was so the player could go at their own pace and enjoy the dungeon story.

Well, they can always do the Normal version. I believe the story doesn't change with the difficulty settings anyway.
But if some players actually want to go for the challenge... well, that's almost RIP. They can either adapt and press 10 skills (at least they don't have to deal with HA complicating the entire rotation, so I guess that's a good thing), step aside, or simply buy a carry. Yes, because at this point, that almost seems to be the final objective here. At least that's how it looks to me.
Just imagine the price tag on that HM carry. Oh boy... now that's going to be an interesting economy. lol!

SilverBride · August 24

How can players buy a carry in a solo dungeon? They aren't solo only?

Valkanos · August 24

SilverBride wrote: »

How can players buy a carry in a solo dungeon? They aren't solo only?

And that's the funny part: even if a player specifically wants to play solo, we're basically telling them, "Sure, you can play solo... just don't expect to earn the achievement with the build you enjoy unless you abandon that playstyle or get someone else to carry you".

Did you get it now?

ID + password in Discord, like they do for achievements in Arenas.

Do you really see any other reason for some top players to be so obsessed with HA players playing solo?

oddarin · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

"Sure, you can play solo... just don't expect to earn the achievement with the build you enjoy unless you abandon that playstyle or get someone else to carry you".

So basically you just root for "I want to get challenge achievement but I don't want it to be challenging", right?

Valkanos · August 24

oddarin wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

"Sure, you can play solo... just don't expect to earn the achievement with the build you enjoy unless you abandon that playstyle or get someone else to carry you".

So basically you just root for "I want to get challenge achievement but I don't want it to be challenging", right?

What about... a good challenge for my build...
[....]
[....]
IDK! Just pay. ^^ Easy.

DrMedBorn · August 24

pro tip: dont enable this.

Warhawke_80 · August 24

Maybe it's because I haven't had my Caffeine yet.....but catch me up here.... you don't have to choose a challenge right?

Valkanos · August 24

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves. Hard challenges? Sure. Even harder? Okay. But excluding them? No.

No. I will never understand it.

ceruulean · August 24

Yeah it's a stupid option. For people wearing velothi it's basically the best "fortune" you can get making it a non-choice. It's just too good for people who want the rewards of 3 misfortunes without actually having 3 misfortunes.

HatchetHaro · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves.
No. I will never understand it.

You expect rewards without effort. Once you break out of that mindset, you'll understand it.

And as for respecting opinions, well, let's just say you've given me reason not to believe you.

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves.
No. I will never understand it.

You expect rewards without effort. Once you break out of that mindset, you'll understand it.
And as for respecting opinions, well, let's just say you've given me reason not to believe you.

What I don't really expect anymore is to play Elder Scrolls Online as an actual Elder Scrolls experience. And that's the only thing I'm 100% sure about anymore.

And btw, why do you believe I don't have other builds? Just because I'm defending HA players? Yeah, I'll always do that. Whatever other players only care about is selling carries.

oddarin · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves. Hard challenges? Sure. Even harder? Okay. But excluding them? No.

No. I will never understand it.

Because ZOS doesn't do it. You do it yourself categorically refusing to try something different from your usual. You still can do solo dungeons, you can even do some challenges, but other requires certain flexibility you renounce to accept. Your choice.

Valkanos · August 24

oddarin wrote: »

Because ZOS doesn't do it. You do it yourself categorically refusing to try something different from your usual. You still can do solo dungeons, you can even do some challenges, but other requires certain flexibility you renounce to accept. Your choice.

I'm not an exclusive HA player. Do I have an HA build? Yes. Why not? Maybe you have one too. Is that a criminal act? Should I delete the character because I enjoy playing that build?
There's nothing wrong with asking players to adapt their build to a challenge. That's part of the game. But there's a big difference between adapting a build and being told to abandon the playstyle you enjoy because the content was designed around a completely different type of build.
Why should ZOS force players to change their build just to be allowed to play certain content? Why should I have to abandon something I enjoy just to experience a higher difficulty?

I don't like being forced by ZoS to abandon my build just to play their game. And honestly, that makes absolutely no sense to me. This is wrong!

HatchetHaro · August 24

Valkanos wrote: »

HatchetHaro wrote: »

Valkanos wrote: »

How in the hell do some players even find a reason for ZoS to completely kill off and exclude certain players from the game?

I will respect all your opinions, but to me, this makes absolutely no sense. ZOS should be the first ones trying to include all players in their content, not push them out. Players already do enough of that themselves.
No. I will never understand it.

You expect rewards without effort. Once you break out of that mindset, you'll understand it.
And as for respecting opinions, well, let's just say you've given me reason not to believe you.

What I don't really expect anymore is to play Elder Scrolls Online as an actual Elder Scrolls experience. And that's the only thing I'm 100% sure about anymore.

But you already can play The Elder Scrolls Online as if it is Skyrim Online! You can still clear the Solo Dungeon without that Misfortune, or any Dungeon on Normal.

You just can't clear things on the hardest difficulties, which that Misfortune should represent.

Valkanos wrote: »

And btw, why do you believe I don't have other builds? Just because I'm defending HA players? Yeah, I'll always do that. Whatever other players only care about is selling carries.

If so, those HA-only players can speak for themselves. But hey, you've been feeling so strongly about it.

I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Warhawke_80 · August 24

Okay so were back to ZoS listening to that handful of players who have a those who deserve to see content and those who don't mindset.....this is why so many people are predicting a bleak future for ESO... I mean heck even WoW and FFXIV has solo dungeons where you don't have to jump through hoops.....Zos has to do more to win me back

Valkanos · August 24

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
But hey, you've been feeling so strongly about it..
[....]

Because I believe it's wrong, and I will fight against it. Why not? Is that a criminal act too? Am I not allowed to argue against something I believe is wrong?

HatchetHaro wrote: »

[....]
I genuinely don't know where you got "selling carries" from; being carried does not necessitate payment.

Wanna give me a valid reason why you're so upset about the achievements I get on my build, whatever the build is, while playing solo?
I already understand what's happening here. You’ve made that very clear.

Warhawke_80 wrote: »

Okay so were back to ZoS listening to that handful of players who have a those who deserve to see content and those who don't mindset.....this is why so many people are predicting a bleak future for ESO... I mean heck even WoW and FFXIV has solo dungeons where you don't have to jump through hoops.....Zos has to do more to win me back

Yeap.
I don't like using a 2H on my back bar. I simply don't like it. So I adapt, I use a staff instead. Should I be excluded too?
Yes, I really believe ZoS could exclude me because I adapt my build... but I don't adapt the build... Argggh, there are too many "adapts" for my head. 😅