Maintenance for the week of August 24:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.1.3 is available.
ZOS, why is werewolf balancing ‘unchanging’?
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AdonisJorge✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Tested WW today again with @Wuuffyy and:
1 - Damage on Werewolf Berserker is very strong.
2 - Sustain is a major issue. Outside of Sorcerer, you simply won’t last in high-pressure situations. Even if you build full sustain — aiming for 2k stamina regen and full feat cost reduction glyphs while using Pack Leader, with Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Evasion, and the 15% damage reduction from Torc of the Last Ayleid King — you still get nearly one‑shot.
3 - Defensive builds burn through resources absurdly fast. Within about 10 seconds, both stamina and magicka are gone. Magicka is especially critical since you need it not only for healing but also to restore stamina. As a result, your pressure collapses completely.
I’m not even a top PvP player and was playing with high latency (200–300 ms), yet Wuuffy’s resources were still pushed to the edge while dueling me.
In any real high‑end/pressure PvP scenario, Werewolf runs out of fuel, and there’s very little that can be done to prevent it.
You are supposed to have to run some sort of sustain unlike currently on live with WW. That's why ZOS adjusted it and has ignored all suggestions so far. That's also why they nerfed DK and Sorc sustain. All 3 have been adjusted for next patch and is a good thing. You just have to learn how to adapt like the rest of us and change your build.
I don’t know how you think that’s a good answer, honestly. Even when building for sustain, you run out of fuel extremely fast — unlike any other class I’ve seen. The lack of access to HoTs means you’re forced to keep pressuring constantly while also being pressured yourself. On top of that, Werewolf doesn’t have access to some of the classic sustain sets, so even with defensive builds where I stacked as much sustain as possible, it still wasn’t enough.
I think I’ll focus more on people who actually want to have a good-faith conversation about Werewolf balance, rather than those who just hate on it 24/7.3 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 14:17Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily the last 5-ish years or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is representative of the consistent lows unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ (it’s rework) before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 18:22Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class0 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though. What you say about sorc clearly shows that you don’t play the class other than as ww and neither have any idea of what you are talking about in general. Yet keep calling out for unreasonable nerfs over and over again and trying to ruin the fun other players might have because you only care about 6 skills in the whole game which is ww.
Stam sorc was at least playable back then but magsorc had been dead for years on years until the recent buffs that only lasted a single update because of ppl like you. You can ask literally anyone with even a smidge of game knowledge and they will tell you the same. The “best players” you keep talking about could not make it work, some of then left the game because they could not play their favorite class.
CoE never granted “infinite sustain” even before nerfs. Other sources of sustain are still necessary, if resources are not managed properly you run out. Anyone who plays the class knows this.
At the very least don’t present your subjective opinion without actual knowledge pr experience as arguments.Edited by Zyaneth_Bal on 24 August 2026 18:110 -
gammelscroll✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »Tested WW today again with @Wuuffyy and:
1 - Damage on Werewolf Berserker is very strong.
2 - Sustain is a major issue. Outside of Sorcerer, you simply won’t last in high-pressure situations. Even if you build full sustain — aiming for 2k stamina regen and full feat cost reduction glyphs while using Pack Leader, with Major Protection, Minor Protection, Major Evasion, and the 15% damage reduction from Torc of the Last Ayleid King — you still get nearly one‑shot.
3 - Defensive builds burn through resources absurdly fast. Within about 10 seconds, both stamina and magicka are gone. Magicka is especially critical since you need it not only for healing but also to restore stamina. As a result, your pressure collapses completely.
I’m not even a top PvP player and was playing with high latency (200–300 ms), yet Wuuffy’s resources were still pushed to the edge while dueling me.
In any real high‑end/pressure PvP scenario, Werewolf runs out of fuel, and there’s very little that can be done to prevent it.
You are supposed to have to run some sort of sustain unlike currently on live with WW. That's why ZOS adjusted it and has ignored all suggestions so far. That's also why they nerfed DK and Sorc sustain. All 3 have been adjusted for next patch and is a good thing. You just have to learn how to adapt like the rest of us and change your build.
Run sustain set? While DK dont have to do it? Good balance1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
“Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.”
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
*Wolfhunter which saw nuking werewolf in 2018 or so within about 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lost unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around about a year or so ago, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know that this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 19:01Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!2 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and by previous interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 18:21Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!3 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.
And people who actively use the transformation make intentional concessions to their build to make the most of it, and while using it are restricted heavily from using anything else. Nothing else in the game is that restrictive when used.3 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.
And people who actively use the transformation make intentional concessions to their build to make the most of it, and while using it are restricted heavily from using anything else. Nothing else in the game is that restrictive when used.
That still doesn't make it a class0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.
And people who actively use the transformation make intentional concessions to their build to make the most of it, and while using it are restricted heavily from using anything else. Nothing else in the game is that restrictive when used.
That still doesn't make it a class
You’re arguing semantics, but even if you weren’t-
Can you please move on? You are consistently repeating the same point and I speak for most in this camp when I say ‘we get it’.Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!3 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭That doesn't matter in the slightest. It is a playstyle supported by the game, one that restricts you from using any other skills while providing a skill line of its own, and if it isn't viable to bring into content when compared to playstyles that aren't restricted, then it's a meme.3 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.
And people who actively use the transformation make intentional concessions to their build to make the most of it, and while using it are restricted heavily from using anything else. Nothing else in the game is that restrictive when used.
That still doesn't make it a class
You’re arguing semantics, but even if you weren’t-
Can you please move on? You are consistently repeating the same point and I speak for most in this camp when I say ‘we get it’.
Just because a rep got assigned doesn't make it a class. It's a single skill line under World like fighters guild. Plenty of reps have been assigned to that and Mages guild... Sorry you are in denial from reality.0 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some skills line are multiple per skill line alone) just like a ‘reworked class’ (like DK).
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
None of this is true though
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5ish yesrs or so especially like wolf is.
-DK has/had whip into whatever ult
-NB has bow into whatever ult (like incap)
-Sorc has SO many burst moves to choose from (Curse, Frag/Crystal Wep, Bound Arnaments, anything following Mages Wrath, technically a scribable that does roughly 20-30% more than a ranged spammable) into an ult (can combo meter into streak, can dawny, stam sorc can Onslaught)
-Warden has Beetles which apply both Breeches into an ult
-Necro has Blastbones with both defiles, skull into an ult
-Arcanist I believe potentially has a morph of tentacle for burst along with Tome-bearer’s into any ult
…
Wolf had a howl (spammable) with longer dots and now has a bite (spammable) into shorter dots.
…
I’m sure you all knew this as you and your friends likely had a part in this however wolf had Wolfhunter which saw nuking within 6 months, was given the ability to tank where it lose unique buffs even on the ‘PvP morphs’ as things were shifted around, and reigned a short 3 months this patch before immediately being told everyone else can keep their sustain while wolf (the one ‘no burst, pressure’) class was stripped of it and told to fight as normal.Bushido2513 wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »madmufffin wrote: »Well maybe there will be a miraculous u-turn with the every looked forward to week 3 updates. Given the lack of updates regarding WW (and Templar) from Jessica, I'm gonna just assume that nothing is changing and our always brilliant combat team is pooping on the counter again because of some arbitrary spreadsheet that no one that plays the game agrees with.
To be fair they did listen to feedback and make adjustments. Neither CoE change or CoF change were in the plans at the start of this pts cycle. So i remain somewhat hopeful that they will readjust the costs to accomodate the CoE change.
Because we told them this was going to happen. That werewolf was currently crutching on CoE to function. And with CoE adjusted, ww now needs some number changes to actually be useable again.
I would say if the original costs were 1x and the new costs are at 3x, a fair number for the costs for ww would be at 2x or so. 3k+ for the cc for example, is incredibly punishing even with sustain sets.
They've been responsive to net new stuff being provided through regular feedback. They've been pretty uncompromising on things that were part of the initial rollout.
Please don't have my thread locked through derailing. If you believe you've 'won' then you're indeed right. We are both in agreement that these changes are likely to make it to live and they will have dire consequences for werewolf; this as opposed to DK who maintains 2,700 main resource 'recov' with 23k resources missing (23,000 x 0.12) and mag sorc with 50k mag who maintains the equivalent of 1,500 'mag recov' through CoE (300 'recov' per 10k resources x 5) along with the ability to streak and 'Dark Exchange' whenever the pool begins to dwindle.
Sorc and DK will be meta, despite the changes. Wolf which is a no burst/pressure playstyle will likely and inevitably fall back into near-unviability outside of some health-based builds against worse players, the occasional 'good player' that can make anything work, and groups where they can off-set costs and continue to be 'health monsters' (which will inevitably see the last and significant remaining portion of their kit brought-in from the rework, the HPS while attacking, drastically reduced meaning they will be in a worse state than they every have after that occurs thanks to damage losses, utility losses, and unique mitigation losses).
All of this which of course affects PvE like the complete denial of static reverb and anything aside from a 'support wolf' while using pure sorc there.
It's funny because a lot of what you described is where sorc was not too long ago. Great players that could make anything work. Having to face worse players in order to get anything done. High health builds and running in groups or looking for favorable flights.
Sucks because ww seems like it's so close to usable but whenever it gets lifted they go too far then everyone gets on it and it gets nerfed into oblivion it's also a skill line and not a class so I feel it gets less priority by far.
I don't really think much about ww one way or the other at the end of the day but I think if they put dev time and money in that they just go ahead and complete the project in a meaningful way for those that enjoy it.
That being said, I realize zos doesn't have as many resources so bandaids and rubbing alcohol might be all that's on the menu.
Not a single class in this game other than wolf and Arcanist (wonder why it’s so terrible??) has been ‘no burst’ of any kind in easily in the last 5 years or so like wolf especially is.
Sorc is meta because it simply has ‘infinite sustain’ tools like DK, has overloaded skills (like streak), and already had multiple burst moves (some per skill line) just like a reworked class.
Sorc has been rough, sure. But Sorc has never met the lows wolf has. Let alone the fact that wolf being reworked meant losing so much to gain the sustain we were given just for the sustain to be stripped away in the matter of 3 months and nothing returned. That is consistent low unlike anything else in this game where you aren’t allowed to shine for even a few moments during ‘the time to shine’ before being brought to yet an all-new low.
Thankfully it’s usable in PvE this time, but honestly for how long I wonder.
WW is not a class
You’ve had this discussion with many others and they always say the same:
Wolf cannot slot weapons skills, guild skills, other world skills, class skills, etc. - wolf is actually more of a ‘class’ than any subclass ever was. I’d like to have you know they this was the initial reason I purchased my first copy of the game over a decade back and why I continue to be interested in ESO today even despite the massive class imbalance (as it is with many others).
It's listed under World for a reason. It's no different than Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Vampire and etc.. .Just a single skill line
Just like many others, I will not engage with you as I’m ascertained by those others and bybprevious interactions that you do not wish to continue a conversation ‘in good faith’.
I kindly ask you to ‘move on’ and please do not derail my thread. If you choose to ‘move on’- thank you in advance!
People slot WW ult all the time for the passive stamina recovery just like any other skill line under World.
And people who actively use the transformation make intentional concessions to their build to make the most of it, and while using it are restricted heavily from using anything else. Nothing else in the game is that restrictive when used.
That still doesn't make it a class
You’re arguing semantics, but even if you weren’t-
Can you please move on? You are consistently repeating the same point and I speak for most in this camp when I say ‘we get it’.
Just because a rep got assigned doesn't make it a class. It's a single skill line under World like fighters guild. Plenty of reps have been assigned to that and Mages guild... Sorry you are in denial from reality.
Can you please stop attempting to derail my thread, kindly. I am asking from the bottom of my heart as a gamer. Surely there is something more worth your time at this moment.
I am not trying to 'be mean' but rather I am attempting to appeal to reason.
ZOS, the portion I was trying to relay earlier that has already been buried>>>@ZOS_Kevin * @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (please pass through to combat team) - I don't know what else I can do or say to prove that you are making a mistake. I provide what I can, where I can aimlessly trying to pass the grander point along.
Everytime werewolf 'dies', it is when the sustain is adjusted too heavily or the healing is adjusted too heavily. When you remove damage options like static reverb and leave CoE, you aren't encouraging 'a way out', you're relegating werewolves to yet another subpar option that still lacks the damage with sustain of traditional options like Shapeshifter's chain + Imperial (or in a sense like Oakensoul before). The adjustments to CoE were appropriate, encouraging a choice IS the right path, however the sustain changes are now overkill.
I have attempted to build in a variety of ways where my damage is 'sufficient', which must be consistent and high to outpace rampant healing and sustain (especially CoE mastery Sorc users and CoF skill Dragonknight users), I maintain a certain level of health 35k+, and maintain a certain level of sustain (even if it requires dedicating my race, mythic, and even food) to do so.
In every test I had, Smoked Bear Haunch in ESO and Artaeum Takeaway Broth (shown earlier in this thread via CMX) while seemingly a valid option caused me to lose far too many resources in stam and/or mag to the point that having 2k+ stamina recovery was still a detriment that caused me to burn out within around 15 seconds with essentially no break frees, no rolls, and no blocks (meaning in combat, just like demonstrated before also- I would likely 'burn out' within 4-5 seconds at most).
Building 5 med (22k resistance being nearly unviable in actual content i.e. 'glass cannon' for cost reduction), health where possible for healing, running Shapeshifter's Chain (unique resources and 15% cost reduction), Imperial (Highest Health and Stamina combo with 6% reduction)- I was able to last no more than 20 seconds EVEN with the break free CP (which would not be active in NO-CP BGs) and minimizing rolls (which some snares, immobilizes, and certain skills would force out) before bottoming-out stamina in a very dangerous way:
For an added benefit, with the same reduction gear (which would be abnormal for a mag build), and after stacking 35k+ mag (which caused my health to fall below 30k), I would still burn out within seconds in a dangerous way however only this time it didn't stabilize:
Meanwhile, post nerf-courtesy of our own @Arcana - this is DK on PTS blocking over 100 attacks (holding block) maintaining resource stability the entire time on what is arguably a combination pressure and burst class:
There are many on these forums that will debate this topic in logical fallacies, provide no evidence to back otherwise baseless claims, and are likely here to overwhelm and 'drown out' counter-arguments, however valid-
I know at the end of the day I'm "just a werewolf player" but I implore the team to see the data and logical reasoning along with the promises made by the members who worked so hard to revitalize werewolf in a big way. I have no doubt this PTS patch will make it to live as-is now for werewolf. I ask that over the next 3 months you investigate and determine better solutions for this 'pressure, no burst, low sustain' playstyle you've created and try to understand the changes that made it objectively unviable in the first place.Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 18:49Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »Are consipracy theories even allowed here💀
What friends? I’m an eso player
Can you please stay on topic? I have adjusted what you've requested. I'm really asking kindly for you not to derail my thread with items not relevant to the topic- thank you!
If you need me to change anything else, feel free to DM me!Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 19:06Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!1 -
CP5✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
[snip]
Why does that distinction matter?
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:091 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks and it only might be a minor buff for pve and is prob a nerf for pvp, cw is an attempt to account for the change somewhat by adding an extra instance of class damage per cast.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:070 -
AdonisJorge✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
They had collateral buffs, it is a objective fact, DK and Sorcs, not only on their skills but on their class sets
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:141 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1): https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697154/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-0
(Small 'Heal Whip' nerf given that most use this morph for the 5-whips and the healing is just an 'added bonus'; Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697523/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-1
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/697817/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-2
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag + off resource sustain + healing + burst i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/698518/pts-patch-notes-v12-1-3
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov + off resource post-CoE nerf which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:14Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!3 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:170 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:18Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »[snip]
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 25 August 2026 11:200 -
Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?Edited by Wuuffyy on 24 August 2026 20:06Wuuffyy,
'end-game' PvE and PvP player
ESO player since 2014 (Xbox and PC for PTS)
-new players, feel free to DM for guidance!0 -
RedMamba✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
That was with tri-pots, 5 medium, Shapeshifter's, and Imperial. That's pretty sustainy.
Both with that being said, I actually did run with "Orzo food" (remember, I told you this already?), and I had even attempted with Takeaway Broth and pretty quickly and obviously determined that decreasing your max resources makes the sustain worse and not better. Running 2,000+ stam recov after a tri-pot resulted in no meaning increases over the above build:Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »AdonisJorge wrote: »Every class/skill line more often the reworked ones had some kind of compensation from the sustain nerfs. Sorcerers got Crystal Weapon and Static reverb changes, DK got landslide and monster damage to not nuke it from PVE. Werewolves got a high five from ZOS and that is it, incredible the double standard here
Landslide has been the hot topic amongst pvers ever since rework because it was absolutely not fit for current realities. It has to do with other dk changes but not with core of flames sustain nerf which is only on paper basically.
Sorc got no “compensation” for cut sustain either. Static was changed because it was way too potent with ww’s huge number of bleed ticks, cw is an attempt to account for that somewhat.
DK nerfs+ compensation (week 1):
(Pyrebrand was also given landslide stacks as an 'invisible change' cited later in week 2)
---
Wolf nerfs week 1:
(on all but Claw Fury that sees a 2k per second heal with 20k health in PvE or a 2k per second heal with over 40k in PvP for context; this is NOT skill you see in the majority of PvE or PvP; massives sustain nerfs with double and tripling costs... outside of CoE we never had 'infinite bi-sustain' through mag... we become like everyone else except health-based healing for the trade-off of no substantial damage-based healing to be found)
Sorc 'changes' in week 1"
(they get a 'unique buff' of their own while in groups; one that previously overlapped with a single NB in group; yes I understand it's a controversial change along with Templar's)
~~~
DK buff/compensation (official) week 2:
(Pyrebrand buff)
Wolf changes:
None.
Sorc changes:
None.
~~~
DK changes+compensation week 3:
(They took the 'edge' off whip by 25% of total max, took the flat damage off Earthen for PvP, buffed Landslide uptime and stack maximum, and reduced core of flame from 15% to 12% which is still the equivalent of 2,700 'mag recov' when missing 23,000 mag i.e. a non-substantial nerfs in terms of what this skill does in PvP)
Wolf Changes:
Bloody Gnash (bite; not the 'PvP morph') bug fix
Sorc Changes:
None
~~~
DK changes week 4:
None
Wolf Changes
Indirect but significant- COMPLETELY lose access to static reverb while in PvP AND PvE and additionally cannot 'crutch on CoE' as this is now a weaker passives and pure sorc becomes a much more significant damage loss due to lack of static reverb.
Sorc Changes:
(CoE rightfully nerfed but the same situation as CoF... 50k mag equates to '1,500' mag recov which is just 'off the top, doesn't change much'; Blood Magic nerfed by about 40% but was just 'free healing', and then a sidegrade change were you can no longer proc Static on non-sorc abilities but the chance and 'MS' cadence is MUCH better as a result)
~~~
Wolf (again) had its cost doubled and tripled in Week 1 along with the burst heal (only on-demand heal) reduced by another 10% and increased as well. Quick note: wolf NEVER had 'infinite mag sustain' outside of 'CoE' potentially and making it to 'Rampage'.
Week 3 hit wolf REALLY hard indirectly making Pure Sorc almost completely unviable (Static Reverb only procs with 'sorc abilities; the only way to recoup damage when running a pure sorc over another class or subclassing was static reverb while using CoE for sustain) in both PvP AND PvE.
And here we are where parse after parse I am running out of stamina in 15-20 seconds while building the best I can for reduction to 'make it to Rampage' and it still falling woefully short even when I'm not pressured. Again, the worst part being it ALL affects PvE.
WW, Sorc and DK all got sustain nerfed. Adapt like the rest of us. We all know they are all 3 broken and now have been adjusted.
This is CoF post-nerf.
Over 100 blocks not letting go of RMB with sustain holding perfectly strong>>>
(courtesy of @Arcana ; unrelated to me but sorry for the extra tag annoyance- haha!)
Compared to an examples of wolf Sustain now building Imperial, Shapeshifter's (15%), 5 med/1 heavy/1 light (burning out usually in sub 20 seconds for stam):
That's because you refuse to run a sustain set and Orzo food
This is a way to build it that is MAXIMIZING reduction, using tri-pots, and gaining sustain. That doesn't work.
Running Orzo food was worse, in-fact (as your resource pools are already very low and they have reduced healing which requires more health and not less to remediate reductions... with that being said):HalensShade wrote: »[snip]
[snip]
Imperial, swap from bewitched to orzo food, sorc CoE class mastery. Done and WW is still OP
Haha! You tried this on the other thread too xD-madmufffin wrote: »
It's still fine on sorc with Orzo food nice try
No, sorry. This is me on the 6m dummy with "Orzo Food", 6 medium, all tri-glyphs on my sorcwolf without CoE (subclassed to get more power given no more static reverb):
I lasted 15 seconds... I made it less than half of my bar for Rampage.
See, that's the beauty of it. Even dropping down to 35k health (trying to keep a decent level of healing even though I'll fall over with 35k health, no minor resolve, in 6 medium in an actual PvP environment)... "Orzo food" causes me to lose far too much max resource so despite higher recov... I still burn out nearly instantly.
This is on an Imperial btw... which makes this EVEN WORSE as my max resources are higher and my costs are 6% cheaper across the board.
CoE is a MAJOR plummet in damage, additionally, picking sorc masteries without reverb now causes you to lose HEAPS of damage over other classes and their masteries/subclassing, and the sustain decrease nerf for CoE (along with the sustain decrease of less max resources for CoE-scaling with something like "Orzo" food) causes even the sustain gained to be woefully less impactful as well over running sustain in other ways for other classes/subclassing.
[edited to remove quote]
Do you have any data of your own to support your claims?
Sustain set, serpent and Orzo solves the issue. Sorry you struggle to adapt.0