I like my idea of making one version of Negate (Negate Magic) that deals damage and heals while negating magicka used skills, and the other more of a debuff zone (Negate Armor/Power) that puts Major Brittle and Minor Maim on the enemy, somewhat negating the enemies overall power level.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Negate should be buffed not nerfed. It should remove shields + HoTs to mimic how it used to work when healing was majority 'ground' based (with stacked healing springs).

Negate is an expensive denial ultimate which should require groups to 'counter' or move.

I can't even with the nerf sorc nonsense anymore. One of the other threads (not by this OP) was even starting on Rune Cage of all abilities.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Aren't Stamina based abilities the counter to Negate?

Shhh, you can't present facts based ways to counter Sorc abilities, that goes against the #nerfsorc mantra the forums has carefully curated over the decade of this games lifespan. /s


On to a more serious and informative comment in regards to OPs original complaint:
Negate spam is a direct result of ZOS doing almost nothing for a decade to curb the exponentially growing power ceiling that ball groups have enjoyed for far too long now. If ball groups weren't left to become such a massive issue, Negate would have remained the same rarely used ability it has always been because on it's own, it's not a good ability.

As was mentioned above, Stamina abilities (such as Vigor for healing) still work under negate, as do over time effects already on you when the negate was cast. Core combat also still works under negate, so dodge rolling is a very easy way to move around and reduce the impact of Negate.

Lets also be perfectly honest with ourselves here, ANY ability being cast 40+ times will feel oppressive and overpowered, even 40 light attacks will still feel like significant pressure to be on the receiving end of, and that is supposed to happen because it's simple numbers, and for those sorts of numbers to not feel oppressive, would mean whatever individual thing is being hit by those numbers is clearly completely imbalanced in some shape or form.

Yea it's insane lol. Ppl be asking for nerfs to things that never been a problem 😂

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Negate should be buffed not nerfed. It should remove shields + HoTs to mimic how it used to work when healing was majority 'ground' based (with stacked healing springs).

Negate is an expensive denial ultimate which should require groups to 'counter' or move.

I can't even with the nerf sorc nonsense anymore. One of the other threads (not by this OP) was even starting on Rune Cage of all abilities.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Aren't Stamina based abilities the counter to Negate?

Shhh, you can't present facts based ways to counter Sorc abilities, that goes against the #nerfsorc mantra the forums has carefully curated over the decade of this games lifespan. /s


On to a more serious and informative comment in regards to OPs original complaint:
Negate spam is a direct result of ZOS doing almost nothing for a decade to curb the exponentially growing power ceiling that ball groups have enjoyed for far too long now. If ball groups weren't left to become such a massive issue, Negate would have remained the same rarely used ability it has always been because on it's own, it's not a good ability.

As was mentioned above, Stamina abilities (such as Vigor for healing) still work under negate, as do over time effects already on you when the negate was cast. Core combat also still works under negate, so dodge rolling is a very easy way to move around and reduce the impact of Negate.

Lets also be perfectly honest with ourselves here, ANY ability being cast 40+ times will feel oppressive and overpowered, even 40 light attacks will still feel like significant pressure to be on the receiving end of, and that is supposed to happen because it's simple numbers, and for those sorts of numbers to not feel oppressive, would mean whatever individual thing is being hit by those numbers is clearly completely imbalanced in some shape or form.

Yea it's insane lol. Ppl be asking for nerfs to things that never been a problem 😂

Yeah... I've bit my tongue, so to speak, on that other thread since I could theoretically understand a nerf to Streak IF (and only IF) there were huge buffs across the entirety of the rest of the class kit to compensate for it.

Such changes were something that I actually proposed a few years ago in U36/37 to try and bring the rest of sorcs kit up since it was crafting bench tier back then despite having streak at its current power (the rest of the kit was just that bad and no sub-classing back then to swap out everything for actually good lines), but I learned quickly from the responses to that thread back then, that it didn't matter what changes to Streak were proposed/made, nothing was going to please the nerf sorc crowd, especially since the sheer amount of buffs, reworks and additions required to make up for big nerfs to streak was something that definitely would have caused these commenters brains to break, and those buffs would have only been to give Sorc in-class access to current non-class skills it already relies on/builds around, not actually giving Sorc anything unique or special to separate it from every other standardized brawler class/build that existed at that time.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Negate should be buffed not nerfed. It should remove shields + HoTs to mimic how it used to work when healing was majority 'ground' based (with stacked healing springs).

Negate is an expensive denial ultimate which should require groups to 'counter' or move.

I can't even with the nerf sorc nonsense anymore. One of the other threads (not by this OP) was even starting on Rune Cage of all abilities.

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Aren't Stamina based abilities the counter to Negate?

Shhh, you can't present facts based ways to counter Sorc abilities, that goes against the #nerfsorc mantra the forums has carefully curated over the decade of this games lifespan. /s


On to a more serious and informative comment in regards to OPs original complaint:
Negate spam is a direct result of ZOS doing almost nothing for a decade to curb the exponentially growing power ceiling that ball groups have enjoyed for far too long now. If ball groups weren't left to become such a massive issue, Negate would have remained the same rarely used ability it has always been because on it's own, it's not a good ability.

As was mentioned above, Stamina abilities (such as Vigor for healing) still work under negate, as do over time effects already on you when the negate was cast. Core combat also still works under negate, so dodge rolling is a very easy way to move around and reduce the impact of Negate.

Lets also be perfectly honest with ourselves here, ANY ability being cast 40+ times will feel oppressive and overpowered, even 40 light attacks will still feel like significant pressure to be on the receiving end of, and that is supposed to happen because it's simple numbers, and for those sorts of numbers to not feel oppressive, would mean whatever individual thing is being hit by those numbers is clearly completely imbalanced in some shape or form.

Yea it's insane lol. Ppl be asking for nerfs to things that never been a problem 😂

Yeah... I've bit my tongue, so to speak, on that other thread since I could theoretically understand a nerf to Streak IF (and only IF) there were huge buffs across the entirety of the rest of the class kit to compensate for it.

Such changes were something that I actually proposed a few years ago in U36/37 to try and bring the rest of sorcs kit up since it was crafting bench tier back then despite having streak at its current power (the rest of the kit was just that bad and no sub-classing back then to swap out everything for actually good lines), but I learned quickly from the responses to that thread back then, that it didn't matter what changes to Streak were proposed/made, nothing was going to please the nerf sorc crowd, especially since the sheer amount of buffs, reworks and additions required to make up for big nerfs to streak was something that definitely would have caused these commenters brains to break, and those buffs would have only been to give Sorc in-class access to current non-class skills it already relies on/builds around, not actually giving Sorc anything unique or special to separate it from every other standardized brawler class/build that existed at that time.

Yea, it was a wild thread. They looked at Streak in isolation and claimed that it is too strong of a CC, but conveniently ignored the reason why Streak was that stacked in the first place. Sorc has always had weaker defensive heals and poor bar space, so Streak acting as a 3-in-1 ability was actually an intended design by ZOS. Imagine having to slot a CC and an escape tool on a class that already has bar space issues lol.

Whenever something overperforming comes about, Streak always catches strays. Remember Hardened Ward buff? I saw a couple Streak nerf threads pop up for no reason during that time, when the main offender was Ward lol. After Ward got dumpstered, nobody complained about Streak anymore. Like, U50 is literally no different. Without CoE's healing mechanic removing the only drawback that kept Sorc in check, Streak would just be another strong signature ability, similar to how Wings/Extended Ritual/Cloak/etc. are on other classes. Streak is an amplifier, while CoE is the real culprit, but people love to nerf the entire class for literally no apparent reason.

Perhaps what's funniest is how they framed Streak as this ideal ability that has no drawbacks. It is laughable because Streak's main advantage is also its own limitation. Having a 15m built in gap closer/escape tool means you have to position very well so as to not ruin your own follow-up combo after Streaking. Like, I have seen many players incorrectly space themselves before casting Streak, so they end up creating too much distance to properly follow-up with their combo afterwards. Not to mention it is a skill shot (with a big hitbox, but still a skillshot nonetheless) that requires some aim and becomes unreliable vs fast targets.

Some of them even demanded me to provide an equivalence, which is an absurd request framed to ignore the mechanical link between Streak's advantages and limitations. Like, I could just as easily frame it this way:

"What analogous CC requires the caster to position correctly before using it, forcibly displaces the caster by 7–15m, potentially makes the follow-up burst unreliable, and becomes progressively more expensive with subsequent casts?"

and Streak would sound pretty bad to use compared to other CCs like Fossilize/Javelin, which have an auto-aim function, demand easier positioning, do not displace your character or make the follow-up combo unreliable, nor become progressively more expensive with subsequent casts.

A few of them suggested making Streak blockable with a delay before activation. Like...what? Lol. Their reasoning is that it "provides equivalent counterplay as other CCs", which sounds good in theory to an untrained ear but completely falls apart when we consider the class as a whole. Sorc's burst combo, consisting of Curse and Crystal Fragment/BA proc, is entirely blockable, with Curse also cleansable and mitigated further by Major Evasion. Streak's CC being instant and unblockable is arguably the only reason why Sorc has any real killing power at all, so adding any sort of delay or making it blockable would render it useless against good players who frequently position well and have good blocking habits. I tried to explain to them that their suggestion would instantly kill the ability for Sorc users by turning Streak into another useless skill (since the CC functionality is no longer reliable, and BoL is a better escape tool). Ball of Lightning would likely be the new chosen morph while they source an unblockable CC elsewhere, exacerbating the bar space problem. But, they did not seem to understand that lol.

Yeah, we really should do something about it, starting with a bigger radius, so a ballgroup doesn't run through in less than 1 GCD, not giving a damn about it.

Negate is fine as is IMO. If anything the bubble should be a bit bigger to help with ball groups.

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Its funny how one skill can be "overperforming" in pvp but bc complete trash in pve. Negate is probably the least used ultimate in pve, as the negate doesnt work on bosses, and enemies usually either die too quickly, or they run out of it.

Or
Just
Idk
Move out of the circle in PvP

I use both morphs of Negate on different characters
Stun + damage to trash mobs feels nice to me. The boss cannot be silence/stunned, but its still taking damage.
And it's a nice-looking AoE heal on another morph.

I'm hoping the skill survives the class refresh, and we'll get a water-themed skill style for it (like a big bubble).

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Oceanchanter wrote: »

SilverIce58 wrote: »

Its funny how one skill can be "overperforming" in pvp but bc complete trash in pve. Negate is probably the least used ultimate in pve, as the negate doesnt work on bosses, and enemies usually either die too quickly, or they run out of it.

Or
Just
Idk
Move out of the circle in PvP

I use both morphs of Negate on different characters
Stun + damage to trash mobs feels nice to me. The boss cannot be silence/stunned, but its still taking damage.
And it's a nice-looking AoE heal on another morph.

I'm hoping the skill survives the class refresh, and we'll get a water-themed skill style for it (like a big bubble).

A water bubble would be so cool! And i agree. Its easy as hell to avoid in pvp, just dodge roll out of it. I do enjoy the passive damage it gives in pve, I just wish it did more damage for not being able to silence bosses.

ZOS has the technology to make such skill styles, skills, or even entire skill lines.
Dreadsail Reef enemies and bosses, fish-people in Summerset, and that mage's guild dude trapped in a bubble come to mind.

But as with any MMO RPG, this is the case:


Also, yeah, people just roll out of the bubble when I drop it down.
Not to mention the silence effect works only on - from what I noticed - magica-based abilities. Stamina ones are unaffected.
If memory serves me well, Negate's damage ticks can also trigger Static Reverberation Class Mastery effect, so its a small damage boost agaisnt bosses too.

I'd say Negate performs allright as it is now. It needs some love and polishing (or rather sorc as it is), true, but OP was probably subjected to someone using it skillfully so they think it's overpowered.
It also doesn't block attacks and spells coming outside of the bubble, so I'm not sure what the problem really is.

If any ultimate is currently overpowered, is DK's Dragon's Flight or whatever, but it might just be that DK got refreshed first and everything in DK now bonked in terms of balance compared to the rest.

Some of the people in the streak needs a CC nerf thread said "shattering rocks is an equivalent CC to streak in all aspects" so I don't really know how serious to take this thread, but I sure do hope the discourse is logically sound!

LadyGP wrote: »

NovelliESO wrote: »

Some of the people in the streak needs a CC nerf thread said "shattering rocks is an equivalent CC to streak in all aspects" so I don't really know how serious to take this thread, but I sure do hope the discourse is logically sound!

I honestly can't tell if this thread is filled with trolls or people who are being serious.

-xactguy

Well, it was started by a ball group player who even said in this thread that NPC negates should be nerfed...take that as you will I suppose

Negate absolutely does not need a buff. It's already the strongest CC ultimate in the game because CC immunity doesn't even protect you from its silence. You can be completely CC immune and still be unable to cast while standing in it.

That's exactly why large groups like DIG can stack a huge number of Negates and carpet an area with them, effectively shutting down anyone caught inside.

And outside of ultimates, Streak is the strongest CC in the game. The combination of massive AoE, no target cap, unblockable and undodgeable CC, damage, range, and mobility is in a league of its own.

The same class has the two strongest CCs in the game: Negate as the strongest ultimate CC and Streak as the strongest non-ultimate CC.

That's a pretty ridiculous amount of CC power concentrated into one class, especially when Streak also happens to be one of the strongest mobility skills in the game.