Maintenance for the week of August 24:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – August 24
The maintenance is complete, and the PTS is now back online and patch 12.1.3 is available.
Conservation of Energy
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Zallion✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Aces-High-82 wrote: »If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.
Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”
And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.
I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.
I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.
But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.
I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.
Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.
Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).
I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.
Funny, Ive actually been running plar too lately for the last week or so - and much of the same experiences vs Sorcs. Templars do well defending against the popular dot sorc spec, with cleanse, gap close to chase etc. Templar’s damage just isn’t enough to catch them off guard with enough burst and, PotL is too telegraphed for any relatively experienced player to begin with. Either they run or stalemate (more often stalemate but that could just be me sucking) when on the Plar, if plar actually had the damage in its kit it would be the obvious class counter and you’d see more people run it just to counter the sorc population.
I do think DK is above sorc in literally all areas, but with whip nerfs we may see damage wise a tighter gap - corro and onslaught meta withstanding.
I think that if Plar actually had some burst damage in their class kit (even if when built for it) or signet wasn't deleted from PvP so that pressure from jabs or wardens chilled would actually work again, plar/den would be very up there as anti-meta specs, the same way DoT sorc has been anti-meta for DK/WW.
Would have created an interesting triangle meta. Play Plar and lose to DK/WW but beat sorcs, play sorc to beat DK/WW but lose to plar, play DK/WW to beat plar but lose to sorc.
Not a perfect meta by any means, but a much more interesting one than what we currently have (and similar to the old school metas we used to have in the first few years of the game prior to warden releasing where you could do amazing or completely flop depending on what you faced in a given evening).
It’s just so much healthier when there are hard class counters like that though in the meta, ideally more than 3 and extended to each class where each class serves its purpose. Closest to balanced we could get. My dream is that the refreshes bring that back.1 -
Firstmep✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Aces-High-82 wrote: »If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.
Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”
And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.
I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.
I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.
But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.
I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.
Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.
Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).
I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.
Funny, Ive actually been running plar too lately for the last week or so - and much of the same experiences vs Sorcs. Templars do well defending against the popular dot sorc spec, with cleanse, gap close to chase etc. Templar’s damage just isn’t enough to catch them off guard with enough burst and, PotL is too telegraphed for any relatively experienced player to begin with. Either they run or stalemate (more often stalemate but that could just be me sucking) when on the Plar, if plar actually had the damage in its kit it would be the obvious class counter and you’d see more people run it just to counter the sorc population.
I do think DK is above sorc in literally all areas, but with whip nerfs we may see damage wise a tighter gap - corro and onslaught meta withstanding.
I think that if Plar actually had some burst damage in their class kit (even if when built for it) or signet wasn't deleted from PvP so that pressure from jabs or wardens chilled would actually work again, plar/den would be very up there as anti-meta specs, the same way DoT sorc has been anti-meta for DK/WW.
Would have created an interesting triangle meta. Play Plar and lose to DK/WW but beat sorcs, play sorc to beat DK/WW but lose to plar, play DK/WW to beat plar but lose to sorc.
Not a perfect meta by any means, but a much more interesting one than what we currently have (and similar to the old school metas we used to have in the first few years of the game prior to warden releasing where you could do amazing or completely flop depending on what you faced in a given evening).
Signet plar with double charged was Hella fun, felt like old jabs with real pressure, but tbh it was 1 item carrying an otherwise very poor offensive kit.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »Aces-High-82 wrote: »If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.
Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”
And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.
I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.
I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.
But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.
I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.
Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.
Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).
I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.
Funny, Ive actually been running plar too lately for the last week or so - and much of the same experiences vs Sorcs. Templars do well defending against the popular dot sorc spec, with cleanse, gap close to chase etc. Templar’s damage just isn’t enough to catch them off guard with enough burst and, PotL is too telegraphed for any relatively experienced player to begin with. Either they run or stalemate (more often stalemate but that could just be me sucking) when on the Plar, if plar actually had the damage in its kit it would be the obvious class counter and you’d see more people run it just to counter the sorc population.
I do think DK is above sorc in literally all areas, but with whip nerfs we may see damage wise a tighter gap - corro and onslaught meta withstanding.
I think that if Plar actually had some burst damage in their class kit (even if when built for it) or signet wasn't deleted from PvP so that pressure from jabs or wardens chilled would actually work again, plar/den would be very up there as anti-meta specs, the same way DoT sorc has been anti-meta for DK/WW.
Would have created an interesting triangle meta. Play Plar and lose to DK/WW but beat sorcs, play sorc to beat DK/WW but lose to plar, play DK/WW to beat plar but lose to sorc.
Not a perfect meta by any means, but a much more interesting one than what we currently have (and similar to the old school metas we used to have in the first few years of the game prior to warden releasing where you could do amazing or completely flop depending on what you faced in a given evening).
Signet plar with double charged was Hella fun, felt like old jabs with real pressure, but tbh it was 1 item carrying an otherwise very poor offensive kit.
Sounds similar to how I had my shocksorc build setup. Thankfully reverb does still work with it so it's not completely dead (yet), but the signet nerf was a big hit to it.0 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes
Yeah, super tiring at this point. I'd rather see every class be free of boring sustain minigame and this is coming from someone who can play with 600-800 recovery. Like, everyone tweaked when Morrowind first nuked sustain, saying things like, 'ZOS just wants us to light and heavy attack, and fire sieges'. Now, it is somehow 'integral part of the game where every class needs to build for sustain with at least 1 set'. This is basically the path back to complaining about 'infinitely sustaining tank' meta all over again.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel1 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭IncultaWolf wrote: »TheGodlyImage wrote: »Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol
Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.
Because of streak being absurdly valuable in PVP. It's one single skill that made the line worthwhile. Let's not pretend the class has top to bottom viability. It just has one big outlier of a skill.2 -
Panderbander✭✭✭✭✭
✭madmufffin wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »TheGodlyImage wrote: »Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol
Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.
Because of streak being absurdly valuable in PVP. It's one single skill that made the line worthwhile. Let's not pretend the class has top to bottom viability. It just has one big outlier of a skill.
The skill line has some of the best universal passives in the game, bar none. There's a good reason sorcerer was the best choice for werewolves prior to subclassing and the failed rework, and that reason was largely the sorcerer passives, largely in the storm caller line, as they mostly applied to everything without checks for certain class skills.Leader of Lycan Syndicate, PC NA's tri-faction werewolf guild.~~~Played since the beta, got the monkey.~~~"The blood of the pack is now yours. They are your only family, your only allegiance!"3 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭A thread dedicated to nerfing coe > coe nerfed by 25%, blood magic by 40% > now it’s a nerf streak thread.
It’s hilarious how ppl posting this don’t see how obviously silly this is. The crowd keeps dying but everyone’s the best player, so ofc they always come up with literally any excuse. Nerfs hit but they don’t do any better, moving on to the next target. It’s endless.
You should realize that whichever class you play you will inevitably hit yourselves with the nerfs too eventually.
Honestly, zos should get rid of their habit of making changes through nerfs, it’s not how things are done. Nerfs are usually reserved for only extreme outliers and happen gradually and carefully, not nuking a certain set’s value by half and making it completely useless and such.Edited by Zyaneth_Bal on 23 August 2026 13:270 -
madmufffin✭✭✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »A thread dedicated to nerfing coe > coe nerfed by 25%, blood magic by 40% > now it’s a nerf streak thread.
It’s hilarious how ppl posting this don’t see how obviously silly this is. The crowd keeps dying but everyone’s the best player, so ofc they always come up with literally any excuse. Nerfs hit but they don’t do any better, moving on to the next target. It’s endless.
You should realize that whichever class you play you will inevitably hit yourselves with the nerfs too eventually.
Honestly, zos should get rid of their habit of making changes through nerfs, it’s not how things are done. Nerfs are usually reserved for only extreme outliers and happen gradually and carefully, not nuking a certain set’s value by half and making it completely useless and such.
Better game design has always been to raise the floor rather than lower the ceiling (yet somehow always leaving things on top of the chimney), but ZOS has never done things that way. Instead of addressing why Arc, Necro, and NB are unplayable in PVP and Templar and Warden are just so meh next to Sorc and DK, we are just getting random unplanned nerfs being decided by a wheel spin.0 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes
Yeah, super tiring at this point. I'd rather see every class be free of boring sustain minigame and this is coming from someone who can play with 600-800 recovery. Like, everyone tweaked when Morrowind first nuked sustain, saying things like, 'ZOS just wants us to light and heavy attack, and fire sieges'. Now, it is somehow 'integral part of the game where every class needs to build for sustain with at least 1 set'. This is basically the path back to complaining about 'infinitely sustaining tank' meta all over again.
Even if it's not totally free, but the minigame being made less drastic would be a good starting point.
Having sustain allows exploring into different build options and playstyles, too much (like CoF) just allows too much, but too little just hinders the ability to try things out.0 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes
Yeah, super tiring at this point. I'd rather see every class be free of boring sustain minigame and this is coming from someone who can play with 600-800 recovery. Like, everyone tweaked when Morrowind first nuked sustain, saying things like, 'ZOS just wants us to light and heavy attack, and fire sieges'. Now, it is somehow 'integral part of the game where every class needs to build for sustain with at least 1 set'. This is basically the path back to complaining about 'infinitely sustaining tank' meta all over again.
Buffing everything leads to more power creep, which is already a problem in this game. It’s a quicker and simpler solution to tune down whats over performing. Otherwise yeah I’d say yeah buff other classes up, but that isn’t how ZOS operates with balancing usually.
Infinite/high sustain is boring though. Thats what perpetrates a tank meta. It just makes TTK high, for everyone. That’s not fun. Stalemates aren’t fun. Tuning sustain fixes all of that, or heavily addresses it. The level of sustain that is currently achievable should be obtained in group play maybe, but you can get it solo and still have the damage etc. Most notably and prominently with little investment (1 skill, 1 mastery) on the top two classes. Sustain should be an important factor and limiter. Where casting a skill, performing an action etc, all have consequences and you cannot go full offense to defense seamlessly and endlessly. That’s a healthier state of the game than what we have.1 -
Turtle_Bot✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes
Yeah, super tiring at this point. I'd rather see every class be free of boring sustain minigame and this is coming from someone who can play with 600-800 recovery. Like, everyone tweaked when Morrowind first nuked sustain, saying things like, 'ZOS just wants us to light and heavy attack, and fire sieges'. Now, it is somehow 'integral part of the game where every class needs to build for sustain with at least 1 set'. This is basically the path back to complaining about 'infinitely sustaining tank' meta all over again.
Buffing everything leads to more power creep, which is already a problem in this game. It’s a quicker and simpler solution to tune down whats over performing. Otherwise yeah I’d say yeah buff other classes up, but that isn’t how ZOS operates with balancing usually.
Infinite/high sustain is boring though. Thats what perpetrates a tank meta. It just makes TTK high, for everyone. That’s not fun. Stalemates aren’t fun. Tuning sustain fixes all of that, or heavily addresses it. The level of sustain that is currently achievable should be obtained in group play maybe, but you can get it solo and still have the damage etc. Most notably and prominently with little investment (1 skill, 1 mastery) on the top two classes. Sustain should be an important factor and limiter. Where casting a skill, performing an action etc, all have consequences and you cannot go full offense to defense seamlessly and endlessly. That’s a healthier state of the game than what we have.
Agreed that too much sustain is an issue, but so is too little. There needs to be a middle ground.1 -
Zallion✭✭✭✭Turtle_Bot wrote: »IZZEFlameLash wrote: »Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes
Yeah, super tiring at this point. I'd rather see every class be free of boring sustain minigame and this is coming from someone who can play with 600-800 recovery. Like, everyone tweaked when Morrowind first nuked sustain, saying things like, 'ZOS just wants us to light and heavy attack, and fire sieges'. Now, it is somehow 'integral part of the game where every class needs to build for sustain with at least 1 set'. This is basically the path back to complaining about 'infinitely sustaining tank' meta all over again.
Buffing everything leads to more power creep, which is already a problem in this game. It’s a quicker and simpler solution to tune down whats over performing. Otherwise yeah I’d say yeah buff other classes up, but that isn’t how ZOS operates with balancing usually.
Infinite/high sustain is boring though. Thats what perpetrates a tank meta. It just makes TTK high, for everyone. That’s not fun. Stalemates aren’t fun. Tuning sustain fixes all of that, or heavily addresses it. The level of sustain that is currently achievable should be obtained in group play maybe, but you can get it solo and still have the damage etc. Most notably and prominently with little investment (1 skill, 1 mastery) on the top two classes. Sustain should be an important factor and limiter. Where casting a skill, performing an action etc, all have consequences and you cannot go full offense to defense seamlessly and endlessly. That’s a healthier state of the game than what we have.
Agreed that too much sustain is an issue, but so is too little. There needs to be a middle ground.
Couldn’t agree more.
I think the changes are a step in the right direction for that. You mentioned health costs and core combat should be omitted as what you see as the primary issue, I think that change would leave CoE in an okay place.
At the end of the day yeah, the middle ground is the goal, which sometimes means the reeling in of the outliers.2 -
IncultaWolf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭madmufffin wrote: »IncultaWolf wrote: »TheGodlyImage wrote: »Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol
Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.
Because of streak being absurdly valuable in PVP. It's one single skill that made the line worthwhile. Let's not pretend the class has top to bottom viability. It just has one big outlier of a skill.
Not just streak, the passives in storm calling are very strong on any pvp build and you have crit surge which gave anyone easy access to major brutality and healing + hurricane which was so overloaded of an ability zos actually tried to remove the major resolve from it during one pts cycle.
As Pander mentioned, most werewolves during the subclassing patch were using storm calling even though they couldn't use streak.1