Conservation of Energy

Aces-High-82 · August 19

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

aLi3nZ · August 19

IncultaWolf wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.

There was not a single sorc skill line used for pve when Subclassing was a thing before class masteries.

But yes hurricane is best source of major resolve and minor expedition snd streak and crit surge are great abilities. Plus good passives on that skill line.

aLi3nZ · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

pure sorc was not good before masteries.

As a sorc main I was subclassing assasination skill line like everyone else and also liked to subclass aedric spear because 6% spell damage and armour on that skill line plus crit damage and major protection is just as good as calculated defense class mastery basically.

Firstmep · August 19

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

I've posted it multiple times already but my melee sorc with coe and font of power sitting at around 38-39k stam depending ddf stacks basically never runs out of resources.
No sustain food, no tripots(double resist pots is what I run), no sustain mundus.

Also font of power has breakpoints, so you can easily optimize to only lose a couple % weapon damage while still gaining a large amount of sustain from other sources.

Now, I will say, it is very much due to me running bfb which is basically free with coe, ele sus, which returns resources in its current state due to coe.
I also run maarselok and disdain which both have stam lines that would be a downside on any other class but sorc.
You see the pattern here?
A magsorc spamming ward every other global may not be able to infinite sustain with coe, but then I don't think that should be the benchmark.
Infinite sustain should come with serious drawbacks to tankiness or damage.

I'd love it if zos could buff for example single stat sustain sets, as wretched has been the go to for far too long.
And buff other sources of sustain as well, to make them more viable choices, but at the same time easy infinite sustain also shouldn't exist.

Luneca · August 19

No. Not until we get a patch where an entire faction stack of sorcs streaks down the hill at Nikel and terrifies AD again. Only then can you claim it's Elder Sorcs Online.

... Too bad no one wants to do fun things like that anymore.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

VinnyGambini wrote: »

If sorc kit is so bad, why everone plays sorc? My last 2 BGs:

"everyone is on Sorc"

that first image showing that there's almost the same number of Nightblades (5) as there are Sorcs (6) and both images showing significantly more NBs than even DKs (5 vs 1 and 3 vs 1 respectively).

by this logic, NB is also giga overpowered and everywhere in BGs just like Sorc and needs more massive nerfs as well.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

IncultaWolf wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.

Ahh yes "the whole sorc kit is soo good" that every single pvper was lining up out the door to not sub-class Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning.

Also, the sub-classing meta has been taking advantage of different lines since U46, with the most common builds being:

U46-48: Assassination + Animal Companions + X (X being storm calling, restoring light or aedric spear) OR

U49-Now: Ardent + X + Y (X/Y being a mix of Aedric, Assassination, Storm Calling, Animal Companions, Gravelord, or Draconic power if DK base)

Storm Calling has been a popular/common line, but it has not been "literally every single pvper subclassed into it" with it frequently being the optional 3rd picked line to round out the main 2 skill lines because it is the only line (pre DK refresh) to have the armor buff on a line with damage passives. This also doesn't change the fact that the other 2 lines are so bad that not a single pvper sub-classed into them.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

Firstmep wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

I've posted it multiple times already but my melee sorc with coe and font of power sitting at around 38-39k stam depending ddf stacks basically never runs out of resources.
No sustain food, no tripots(double resist pots is what I run), no sustain mundus.

Also font of power has breakpoints, so you can easily optimize to only lose a couple % weapon damage while still gaining a large amount of sustain from other sources.

Now, I will say, it is very much due to me running bfb which is basically free with coe, ele sus, which returns resources in its current state due to coe.
I also run maarselok and disdain which both have stam lines that would be a downside on any other class but sorc.
You see the pattern here?
A magsorc spamming ward every other global may not be able to infinite sustain with coe, but then I don't think that should be the benchmark.
Infinite sustain should come with serious drawbacks to tankiness or damage.

I'd love it if zos could buff for example single stat sustain sets, as wretched has been the go to for far too long.
And buff other sources of sustain as well, to make them more viable choices, but at the same time easy infinite sustain also shouldn't exist.

I'm curious how infinite your sustain will be next patch, especially if ZOS were to remove health cost abilities as a way to proc CoE (can simulate this by running dizzy or flurry instead I guess). I'm betting it will be quite a bit reduced, especially with the cost added to ele sus.
I bet it would feel borderline mediocre if it was also changed to not give the healing/sustain on core combat too, basically where magsorcs are with the current CoE since they don't have/use those specific interactions.

VinnyGambini · August 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

If sorc kit is so bad, why everone plays sorc? My last 2 BGs:

"everyone is on Sorc"

that first image showing that there's almost the same number of Nightblades (5) as there are Sorcs (6) and both images showing significantly more NBs than even DKs (5 vs 1 and 3 vs 1 respectively).

by this logic, NB is also giga overpowered and everywhere in BGs just like Sorc and needs more massive nerfs as well.

Oh and what about 2nd bg? 9 sorcs out of 16 players? Why you pretend you dont see second screenshot?

Seriously stop manipulating facts. Even blind man can see that in current state there are only 2,5 pvp classes. DK, sorc and sorc WW. Not even WW itself, sorc WW specifically.

Stop manipulating facts, its insulting.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

Stamsorcs were in a good spot prior to the masteries, but they have always been in a good spot because they rely much more on non-class skills as their bread and butter abilities (B4B, weapon skills, scribing, etc.), proc sets (often the latest OP proc set that was left OP to sell X latest DLC) and (post U46) sub-classing to fill out their build, often only really commonly using streak, surge (if not running animal companions for netch) and hurricane from the sorc kit unless they remained pure (i.e. a dedicated purist stamsorc main) where they would include armaments, dark deal and maybe weapon or curse.

Magsorcs however have always fluctuated between strong and mid-at-best depending on if ZOS over-buffs an abilities tooltip or not, because magsorcs are much more dependent on the class kit as a whole (which means using dark magic and daedric summoning skills) and DM/DS are where the majority of Sorcs inherent issues as a class kit lies.

This is why I proposed the changes to CoE that I did (no longer interacting with health cost, core combat and WW/cheap abilities) because those changes directly target the consistently stronger and more problematic stamsorc variants and also the problematic areas of those variants instead of just being blanket hits to builds that don't need any nerfs and could even use some small buffs to some things.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

VinnyGambini wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

VinnyGambini wrote: »

If sorc kit is so bad, why everone plays sorc? My last 2 BGs:

"everyone is on Sorc"

that first image showing that there's almost the same number of Nightblades (5) as there are Sorcs (6) and both images showing significantly more NBs than even DKs (5 vs 1 and 3 vs 1 respectively).

by this logic, NB is also giga overpowered and everywhere in BGs just like Sorc and needs more massive nerfs as well.

Oh and what about 2nd bg? 9 sorcs out of 16 players? Why you pretend you dont see second screenshot?

Seriously stop manipulating facts. Even blind man can see that in current state there are only 2,5 pvp classes. DK, sorc and sorc WW. Not even WW itself, sorc WW specifically.

Stop manipulating facts, its insulting.

Oh and what about my comment directly commenting about the second screenshot regarding NB showing that I did see and acknowledge it?

Stop manipulating facts yourself, it is insulting, and to accuse others of doing it is projecting and hypocritical.

ItsNotLiving · August 19

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/691905/we-rise-sorc-mains#latest

AdonisJorge · August 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

Stamsorcs were in a good spot prior to the masteries, but they have always been in a good spot because they rely much more on non-class skills as their bread and butter abilities (B4B, weapon skills, scribing, etc.), proc sets (often the latest OP proc set that was left OP to sell X latest DLC) and (post U46) sub-classing to fill out their build, often only really commonly using streak, surge (if not running animal companions for netch) and hurricane from the sorc kit unless they remained pure (i.e. a dedicated purist stamsorc main) where they would include armaments, dark deal and maybe weapon or curse.

Magsorcs however have always fluctuated between strong and mid-at-best depending on if ZOS over-buffs an abilities tooltip or not, because magsorcs are much more dependent on the class kit as a whole (which means using dark magic and daedric summoning skills) and DM/DS are where the majority of Sorcs inherent issues as a class kit lies.

This is why I proposed the changes to CoE that I did (no longer interacting with health cost, core combat and WW/cheap abilities) because those changes directly target the consistently stronger and more problematic stamsorc variants and also the problematic areas of those variants instead of just being blanket hits to builds that don't need any nerfs and could even use some small buffs to some things.

Why are stam sorcs so much better? What do they build into? I know that shield sorc is not meta anymore

ItsNotLiving · August 19

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

Stamsorcs were in a good spot prior to the masteries, but they have always been in a good spot because they rely much more on non-class skills as their bread and butter abilities (B4B, weapon skills, scribing, etc.), proc sets (often the latest OP proc set that was left OP to sell X latest DLC) and (post U46) sub-classing to fill out their build, often only really commonly using streak, surge (if not running animal companions for netch) and hurricane from the sorc kit unless they remained pure (i.e. a dedicated purist stamsorc main) where they would include armaments, dark deal and maybe weapon or curse.

Magsorcs however have always fluctuated between strong and mid-at-best depending on if ZOS over-buffs an abilities tooltip or not, because magsorcs are much more dependent on the class kit as a whole (which means using dark magic and daedric summoning skills) and DM/DS are where the majority of Sorcs inherent issues as a class kit lies.

This is why I proposed the changes to CoE that I did (no longer interacting with health cost, core combat and WW/cheap abilities) because those changes directly target the consistently stronger and more problematic stamsorc variants and also the problematic areas of those variants instead of just being blanket hits to builds that don't need any nerfs and could even use some small buffs to some things.

Why are stam sorcs so much better? What do they build into? I know that shield sorc is not meta anymore

Note that sorcerer is the only class with multiple viable builds post hybridization.

RedMamba · August 19

Stop asking for nerfs and buff other classes

Bushido2513 · August 19

I enjoy the sustain on sorc and I think if they reign in other classes that coe could use adjustments.

Firstmep wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

I've posted it multiple times already but my melee sorc with coe and font of power sitting at around 38-39k stam depending ddf stacks basically never runs out of resources.
No sustain food, no tripots(double resist pots is what I run), no sustain mundus.

Also font of power has breakpoints, so you can easily optimize to only lose a couple % weapon damage while still gaining a large amount of sustain from other sources.

Now, I will say, it is very much due to me running bfb which is basically free with coe, ele sus, which returns resources in its current state due to coe.
I also run maarselok and disdain which both have stam lines that would be a downside on any other class but sorc.
You see the pattern here?
A magsorc spamming ward every other global may not be able to infinite sustain with coe, but then I don't think that should be the benchmark.
Infinite sustain should come with serious drawbacks to tankiness or damage.

I'd love it if zos could buff for example single stat sustain sets, as wretched has been the go to for far too long.
And buff other sources of sustain as well, to make them more viable choices, but at the same time easy infinite sustain also shouldn't exist.

I think the heal or proc condition could use careful tweaks but you're kind of pointing out build diversity issues if the passive is overly nerfed or removed.

Bfb and ddf is a good part of why that particular build works but it's nice to be able to sustain with tripots on other types of builds. That's in part due to coe and sugar skulls somewhat working together. If that synergy is cut too harshly then build diversity could suffer for sorc.

Also people should understand that choosing coe is strong but you do actually give up another choice so there is some trade-off.

Coe definitely shouldn't offer such a strong heal or any help at all for just any action you take. That's a bit busted in my opinion. I don't mind sustain but players absolutely need to be responsible for their own healing.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

AdonisJorge wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

ItsNotLiving wrote: »

The issue with CoE is the fact it’s proc condition is literally clicking any button on your keyboard

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Sorc kit is the best for PvP. Even better than DK imo.

Sorc has a few solid abilities, but also a lot of really bad and redundant abilities, so overall (whole kit) DKs kit is much stronger than sorcs

This is true, but the same can be said for other classes when compared to Sorcs. Because of this passive. Sorcs were in a solid spot prior to masteries, right? I think the passive nudges them into slightly problematic territory, not quite DK, but when looking at every kit from every class as a whole.

Sorcs, aside from this passive, are fine and I’m even okay with incremental buffs in other parts of the kit. Some folks have disdain for other classes and want them bottom of the totem pole. That shouldn’t be the case for any class. I dont main a sorc. Anecdotally, I’m a mid sorc player. And when testing it out with this mastery, even being super rusty at the class, it really felt unfair. It felt like cheating. Now I wasn’t always vs potatoes, some yes. But an even array of opponents. Dying only to DKs basically. But jump on other classes and then on a sorc, or DK for that matter. Both kits are skewed. And the common theme: juiced up sustain/healing in one passive or ability.

Stamsorcs were in a good spot prior to the masteries, but they have always been in a good spot because they rely much more on non-class skills as their bread and butter abilities (B4B, weapon skills, scribing, etc.), proc sets (often the latest OP proc set that was left OP to sell X latest DLC) and (post U46) sub-classing to fill out their build, often only really commonly using streak, surge (if not running animal companions for netch) and hurricane from the sorc kit unless they remained pure (i.e. a dedicated purist stamsorc main) where they would include armaments, dark deal and maybe weapon or curse.

Magsorcs however have always fluctuated between strong and mid-at-best depending on if ZOS over-buffs an abilities tooltip or not, because magsorcs are much more dependent on the class kit as a whole (which means using dark magic and daedric summoning skills) and DM/DS are where the majority of Sorcs inherent issues as a class kit lies.

This is why I proposed the changes to CoE that I did (no longer interacting with health cost, core combat and WW/cheap abilities) because those changes directly target the consistently stronger and more problematic stamsorc variants and also the problematic areas of those variants instead of just being blanket hits to builds that don't need any nerfs and could even use some small buffs to some things.

Why are stam sorcs so much better? What do they build into? I know that shield sorc is not meta anymore

Stamsorcs are much stronger because they get a lot of build flexibility and better synergize with weapon damage that magsorcs don't really get the chance to explore without just becoming "inferior stamsorc"

To make shields work, which is magsorcs primary defensive tool since it doesn't have the speed, or ease of use of core combat, that stamsorcs have, magsorcs need to build heavily into max mag via sets and that doesn't leave room on the build to run any sets that aren't dedicated to max mag, to try and fill out the build such as wretched for sustain, proc sets for damage, mara's for cleanse/healing, etc. It also doesn't help that proc sets all scale off weapon/spell damage and not max mag/stam so magsorc can't build half way into max mag for their shields and then try to make a proc set work alongside it.

Stamsorc however doesn't really have these limitations because the Sorc abilities it interacts with (especially the defensive tools) all scale off weapon/spell damage allowing it to easily build into weapon/spell damage and health same as the other classes, but also to build into max stam if desired (basically stamsorcs get the option to choose from the best of both worlds without any of the drawbacks of either one).

Another issue has typically been the weapon passives as well. Lightning staves have somewhat been buffed for damage with the increases a few patches ago to the percent modifiers, but the raw stats (weapon damage, pen, crit damage, crit chance) from the stam weapons are significantly stronger since they also buff healing as well as damage (buffing both offense and defense where staff just buffs offense only). This is why magsorcs that try to go weapon damage routes/builds always end up just being "inferior stamsorcs".

TL//DR:
magsorcs got left behind at a design level due to underlying class mechanics, changes to the way proc sets scale and the game itself just moving on from how magsorcs function/were designed.

acanca · August 19

aLi3nZ wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

Ah yes sorc kit so bad that literally every single pvper subclassed into storm calling last patch.

There was not a single sorc skill line used for pve when Subclassing was a thing before class masteries.

But yes hurricane is best source of major resolve and minor expedition snd streak and crit surge are great abilities. Plus good passives on that skill line.

I would argue current best major resolve for pve is shatterspike but yeah thats not really as amazing in pvp ^^

twing1_ · August 19

The biggest problem with Conservation of Energy is its interaction with Werewolf form.

Conservation of Energy is a Class Mastery Skill that has been careful designed and balanced around weaknesses of the Sorcerer toolkit.

Prior to this mastery, Sorcerers were always dependent on building large resource pools for shield strength, which left them weak on healing and sustain.

Stam Sorcs didn't ever really have to build a large resource pool for shield stacking, but were similarly left with the weaker heals of the Sorcerer toolkit.

When Conservation of Energy is played on the class it was intended for, its definitely a very potent class mastery skill but IMO not overpowered. It balances out the weaknesses of the class it is intended for, and nothing more.

The issue is that every Werewolf playing on a Sorcerer character also has access to Conservation of Energy, and Werewolves do not share the same inherent weaknesses that Sorcerer characters do. In fact, healing and sustain are already strong suits of the Werewolf playstyle. The free healing and sustain that Conservation of Energy provides, on top of the very potent healing and sustain that is already allotted to Werewolf form, only enhances what are already strengths of the Werewolf playstyle and creates a huge opportunity for overpowered Sorcerer Werewolf builds.

Before class masteries were added, Werewolf form already synergized well enough with Sorcerer class passive skills (ult cost reduction, 5% physical damage increase, reverse execute scaling, 5% max resource pools, health/stam/mag skill cost reduction, health/mag/stam recoveries) that almost every Werewolf was already operating on a Sorcerer character. The introduction of class masteries, particularly Conservation of Energy and Static Reverberation, both of which for whatever reason are not restricted to Sorcerer skills and can be utilized to their full effect in Werewolf form, only further strengthened Sorcerer as the meta class for Werewolf and flooded the game with overpowered Sorcerer Werewolf builds.

Now, instead of addressing the issue at hand, ZOS has pushed out a blanket nerf to Werewolf sustain across the board instead of targeting the change at the problematic interaction between Werewolf form and these Class Mastery skills.

Werewolf form is already excluded from benefitting from most of the Class Mastery Skills of other classes, and rightfully so. Class Mastery Skills were implemented as a system to synergize with class toolkits that would allow pure-class styles of play to compete and keep up with sub-classed alternatives. They are specifically designed for and balanced around their respective class toolkit, and as such, should be a system whose function is entirely dependent on pure-class style of play.

Werewolf form is a system that is entirely independent from the class system. In Werewolf form, you have access to class passive skills which serve as little more than flavor to Werewolf play of different classes, but other than that, Werewolves are completely restricted from class active skills and playstyles through their transformation. More importantly, Werewolves have completely different strengths and weaknesses than the pure-class builds they transformed from. As such, there is absolutely no reason that Werewolf form should benefit from the Class Mastery system, which was specifically designed to iron out the weaknesses of each class.

Because Werewolf form and Class Mastery Skills are entirely independent systems and balanced completely separately from one another, any interaction between the two systems is sure to cause problems in game balance. Werewolf and pure-class playstyles of every class have different strengths and weaknesses, and because of this fact there is no feasible way to balance Class Mastery skills with Werewolf form, nor should this be the goal. Werewolf form should be entirely excluded from interacting with Class Mastery Skills, especially Sorc's Conservation of Energy, in any way, shape, or form.

Zallion · August 19

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”

And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.

I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.

I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.

But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.

I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.

hoangdz · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

Cutting the values in half wouldn't change anything

hoangdz · August 19

Prior to U50, magsorcs had to use Wretched Vitality + Sugar Skulls and stamsorcs either ran Orzoga + a damage set or Essence Thief + Sugarskulls. Stamsorc specifically didn't even need Orzoga anyway because Essence Thief + Sugarskulls was just too stat dense, so stamsorcs could afford to play with <1k recovery. The catch was that both specs were pretty much locked into a recovery set and/or specific bar layouts, so build diversity was rather non-existent.

Conservation of Energy is indeed a busted passive, and I've actually advocated for it to be nerfed throughout U50 PTS cycles and on the live server. However, I just don't think the sustain is the actual issue of the passive, especially for a top tier Sorc. While Sorc has always been pretty strong in offensive healing, it's rather lackling in defensive heals, which contributes to its higher skill-ceiling compared to other classes. To survive and brawl effectively on a Sorc, a player needs to have nearly perfect mechanics and be aggressive. Not a lot of people can consistently play aggressive and maintain high APM against high pressure specs.

Conservation of Energy changed that by providing nearly permanent 2-4k HPS. This is the crux of the problem that enables average Sorcs to survive so well, and top tier Sorcs to be nearly unkillable. The sustain is also a crutch for them, but it's not nearly as problematic as the heal. When you remove the heal, you will automatically cut sustain by at least 50% because players will now lose 2-4k HPS, forcing them to spam active healing abilities more and drain their resources faster. This still lets them keep their build diversity, while also addressing the tankiness and sustain imbalance directly as well.

Firstmep · August 19

I implore any sorc that thinks coe is okay to go play arcanist for a day and come back and claim it again.
You can wear multiple sustain sets on that class and still run out of resources super fast when pressured. Now again, don't think Arca sustain should be the benchmark for every class, but I also don't think coe should be it.

Turtle_Bot · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”

And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.

I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.

I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.

But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.

I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.

Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.

Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).

I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.

Zallion · August 19

hoangdz wrote: »

Prior to U50, magsorcs had to use Wretched Vitality + Sugar Skulls and stamsorcs either ran Orzoga + a damage set or Essence Thief + Sugarskulls. Stamsorc specifically didn't even need Orzoga anyway because Essence Thief + Sugarskulls was just too stat dense, so stamsorcs could afford to play with <1k recovery. The catch was that both specs were pretty much locked into a recovery set and/or specific bar layouts, so build diversity was rather non-existent.

Conservation of Energy is indeed a busted passive, and I've actually advocated for it to be nerfed throughout U50 PTS cycles and on the live server. However, I just don't think the sustain is the actual issue of the passive, especially for a top tier Sorc. While Sorc has always been pretty strong in offensive healing, it's rather lackling in defensive heals, which contributes to its higher skill-ceiling compared to other classes. To survive and brawl effectively on a Sorc, a player needs to have nearly perfect mechanics and be aggressive. Not a lot of people can consistently play aggressive and maintain high APM against high pressure specs.

Conservation of Energy changed that by providing nearly permanent 2-4k HPS. This is the crux of the problem that enables average Sorcs to survive so well, and top tier Sorcs to be nearly unkillable. The sustain is also a crutch for them, but it's not nearly as problematic as the heal. When you remove the heal, you will automatically cut sustain by at least 50% because players will now lose 2-4k HPS, forcing them to spam active healing abilities more and drain their resources faster. This still lets them keep their build diversity, while also addressing the tankiness and sustain imbalance directly as well.

A perfect solution, honestly.

Zyaneth_Bal · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Halve it.

If we want to break up the meta, in wake of the whip nerfs, fixing this class mastery will bring Sorcs, as well as the problematic WWs closer in line too which will be a very healthy thing for the current state of the meta and balance. Not a cure-all solution, but leveling the playing field a little bit.

Cut its values in half - it procs off every skill and it simply carrying the specs sustain and healing allowing room for abnormal offensive pressure and survivability.

I love Sorcs, love playing one. But from an objective standpoint, this class mastery is too strong.

It’s not “abnormal offensive pressure” every class is capable of decent levels of damage, if you are not it’s solely a you issue, literally nothing more to that and no need to say otherwise.
Sorc class kit is garbage and it’s hard carried by conservation of energy, allowing it to build glass cannon to at least have competitive damage. If sorc had to run a sustain set again, it would still remain the squishiest class but with low damage too and would go right back to the trash bin. It’s not even fully carrying sustain despite what you want to think and unlike core of flames, you still need sustain cp, traits, skills and watch skill costs at the very least. It already has an internal cd btw.

I think the game is healthiest when a more even spread of classes are viable. I don’t want to see sorc nerfed into the ground here, they spent years at the bottom a while back. I just think with that even spread, all the times we’ve been closest to that are when all classes are more or less playing by the same rules - balancing damage, sustain, and survivability. It’s obvious why DK, sorc, and WWs by extension of sorc are all you see these days. They ignore one of the three pillars almost all together and people like to win. Seriously, playing anything other than those 3 is almost like playing a different game sometimes. An alternative is to give every class the same capabilities with sustain and see what comes of it. But yeah they’re hard carried by it. DK is hardcarried by HoF as well.

You always see ppl play sorc whenever it’s not completely unplayable because streak is fun. Even when it’s dead there are some ppl playing it just for the sake of it. It has nothing to do with sorc being strong or not.

Zallion · August 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”

And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.

I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.

I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.

But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.

I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.

Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.

Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).

I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.

Funny, Ive actually been running plar too lately for the last week or so - and much of the same experiences vs Sorcs. Templars do well defending against the popular dot sorc spec, with cleanse, gap close to chase etc. Templar’s damage just isn’t enough to catch them off guard with enough burst and, PotL is too telegraphed for any relatively experienced player to begin with. Either they run or stalemate (more often stalemate but that could just be me sucking) when on the Plar, if plar actually had the damage in its kit it would be the obvious class counter and you’d see more people run it just to counter the sorc population.

I do think DK is above sorc in literally all areas, but with whip nerfs we may see damage wise a tighter gap - corro and onslaught meta withstanding.

NovelliESO · August 19

VinnyGambini wrote: »

TheGodlyImage wrote: »

Eh... sorc kit is already bad, why would we nerf the class into oblivion? lol

If sorc kit is so bad, why everone plays sorc? My last 2 BGs:

In 1v1 Dk may be stronger, but in group play I dont think so. When DK is fighting 3v1, he will most probably lose. Sorc will just streak away. In those specific bgs 1 sorc streaked 3 times in a row, then dodge rolled 2 times in a row, then he streaked again 2 times. Absolutely uncatchable.

To the topic, both DK sustain and sorc sutain MUST be reduced in PVP.

In group play sorc is next to worthless, aside from having 1 of them. Maybe for uncoordinated "group play" where everyone is just ranged and spamming damage to apply pressure against another group that isn't coordinated or good. DK is better in 1v1 if you slot wings and is essential to group play. With that being said CoF is still too strong, and CoE is in a strong place now but it's not anywhere near as bad as CoF was, so much so that even after the nerfs CoF is STILL stronger than CoE AND it's not tied to a class mastery.

Zyaneth_Bal · August 19

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”

And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.

I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.

I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.

But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.

I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.

Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.

Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).

I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.

Rare objective post based on relevant experience🤝

Turtle_Bot · August 19

Zallion wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Zallion wrote: »

Aces-High-82 wrote: »

If CoE gets nerfed build options will get very limited esp with the upcoming loss of minor prophecy.
Whats the options?
Slot wretched? Not really as you are funneled into sloting Disdain to get any use out of surge.
Running sustain food? Font of Power becomes pretty garbo.
Best Option either subclass Ardent for HoF or just play DK anyways.
Also dunno where the myth CoE providing infinite sustain comes even from. If you stack HP the stat return isnt enough to not chug tripots on CD. Going the 30k HP route still make tripots mandatory when pressured.

Respectfully, kinda reads like: “What do you expect us to do, spec into sustain?!?!”

And yeah. That’s what nearly all classes need to do to have viable builds. The loss of minor prophecy sucks, but the pen is going to be very nice to have in PvP too, and it does atleast open up some options to bridge that survivability gap, (1 precise, more heavy, etc). Less than ideal, but not an impossible work around.

I see a lot of sorc mains really ticked off at this conversation in a general sense, nobody wants their class nerfed, I get that.

I don’t want Sorcs obliterated here - I don’t think CoE should be deleted but definitely dialed in, significantly. At least on the heal aspect.

But really, play multiple classes and think of what is a healthy meta for the game. Not what makes your favorite class the most juiced. Sorc is carried by this, propping them up just under DK - a class that also needs its CoF brought in line too, reduced probably to 8-10% but that’s another conversation.

I mean this genuinely, people need to play a non DK or non sorc for a couple weeks for some perspective if they truly think the state of things is in a good spot. It’s some of the worst imbalance we’ve seen in recent times.

Just for some added context, I have been playing other classes (include pure stamplar) and majority of Sorcs (especially magsorcs that are using majority class skills/intended designs) don't give me much trouble, unlike DKs that are just a complete nightmare on my plar.

Sure it's not an easy kill against a sorc and most of the time they shield up and streak away (because they are forced to or they will die), but they rarely threaten me back in a way that I cannot play around (even though I'm built squishy for damage and not just a block heal bot).

I cannot say that if this experience is because I am a sorc main and know/run abilities/tactics that are effective against Sorc or if it just isn't that big of an issue, but the difference between fighting a Sorc and fighting a DK on my plar is night at day, which is why those trying to claim that sorc is "stronger than DK" is just nonsense to me, as I have fought both classes on most classes in the game and DK is just that far above sorc, especially considering the overall kit and not just a few abilities that are doing the heavy lifting.

Funny, Ive actually been running plar too lately for the last week or so - and much of the same experiences vs Sorcs. Templars do well defending against the popular dot sorc spec, with cleanse, gap close to chase etc. Templar’s damage just isn’t enough to catch them off guard with enough burst and, PotL is too telegraphed for any relatively experienced player to begin with. Either they run or stalemate (more often stalemate but that could just be me sucking) when on the Plar, if plar actually had the damage in its kit it would be the obvious class counter and you’d see more people run it just to counter the sorc population.

I do think DK is above sorc in literally all areas, but with whip nerfs we may see damage wise a tighter gap - corro and onslaught meta withstanding.

I think that if Plar actually had some burst damage in their class kit (even if when built for it) or signet wasn't deleted from PvP so that pressure from jabs or wardens chilled would actually work again, plar/den would be very up there as anti-meta specs, the same way DoT sorc has been anti-meta for DK/WW.

Would have created an interesting triangle meta. Play Plar and lose to DK/WW but beat sorcs, play sorc to beat DK/WW but lose to plar, play DK/WW to beat plar but lose to sorc.

Not a perfect meta by any means, but a much more interesting one than what we currently have (and similar to the old school metas we used to have in the first few years of the game prior to warden releasing where you could do amazing or completely flop depending on what you faced in a given evening).