Sorcs Need Nerfs in PVP Same as DK and WW

XVestigeXx · August 21

RedMamba wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

Why can't the refreshed classes be refreshed in a balanced state and not wildly OP like DK was? Why is the starting point Being something thats in the clouds compared to the rest of the classes?

Week 3 PTS is already over and they rarely make changes after that. You just need to move until U52.

I mean thats fine, I wasn't trying to make the PTS. I was just saying what I thought whether its U51, or U52 or U53. They might just let these changes settle and see what live is like over the next few months. I predict a lot of sorcs

XVestigeXx · August 21

Adrastus wrote: »

this guy has to b

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

i thought this was the plan, bc if they constantly nerf without updated/temporary class mastery whats the point of rework other than to have better graphic visuals.... unless the plan was to make sure you cant animation cancel things at all on the low.

op is a rage baiter always asking for nerfs

I ask for nerfs for the outliers. I also want arcanist and templar buffs. Its just currently Dk and sorc are greater outliers at the top then the other classes at the bottom. Im sorry you feel ragebaited at that opinion

RedMamba · August 21

Sorcerer [Feedback]: We are making some adjustments to the Sorcerer class skills, based on feedback from live and the U51 PTS. These changes will be available for testing in PTS Week 4:

Blood Magic now heals for 3|6% of your Max Health, down from 5|10% when activated.
Conservation of Energy now restores 1.5% of your Magicka and Stamina when it activates, down from 2%
Crystal Weapon now has 3 charges, up from 2.
Monolith of Storms is now considered a Sorcerer ability in regards to damage done
Static Reverberation now triggers off Sorcerer ability damage, rather than any damage.

Increased base proc chance to 20%, up from 5%. Reduced cooldown to 100ms, down from 300ms.

CalamityCat · August 21

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Why can't the refreshed classes be refreshed in a balanced state and not wildly OP like DK was? Why is the starting point Being something thats in the clouds compared to the rest of the classes?

Define balance. Matching the existing pure classes so the refreshed DK is still getting overwhelmed by subclassers, or making it stronger so it can actually compete with subclassers and win fights with them? Because if the goal is to have pure classes competitive with subclassers, they need a buff. But we need to accept that the buff will make them stronger than the non-refreshed pure classes until they get updated.

The funny thing is you started this thread wanting sorcs nerfed, when DKs were actually a useful counter to those sorcs. But you wanted them nerfed and now the sorcs are dominating. As I've said before, if you get a nerf to sorcs something else will dominate instead. So what are you gaining at the end of the day here? At some point your main will be the one in the crosshairs and you're not going to enjoy it. Or you finally get your main class refreshed and it's utterly rubbish because the devs are wary of causing yet more PvP drama. Which is why I'll say it again - be careful what you wish for.

XVestigeXx · August 21

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Why can't the refreshed classes be refreshed in a balanced state and not wildly OP like DK was? Why is the starting point Being something thats in the clouds compared to the rest of the classes?

Define balance. Matching the existing pure classes so the refreshed DK is still getting overwhelmed by subclassers, or making it stronger so it can actually compete with subclassers and win fights with them? Because if the goal is to have pure classes competitive with subclassers, they need a buff. But we need to accept that the buff will make them stronger than the non-refreshed pure classes until they get updated.

The funny thing is you started this thread wanting sorcs nerfed, when DKs were actually a useful counter to those sorcs. But you wanted them nerfed and now the sorcs are dominating. As I've said before, if you get a nerf to sorcs something else will dominate instead. So what are you gaining at the end of the day here? At some point your main will be the one in the crosshairs and you're not going to enjoy it. Or you finally get your main class refreshed and it's utterly rubbish because the devs are wary of causing yet more PvP drama. Which is why I'll say it again - be careful what you wish for.

Either we buff all the classes to be outrageous like Dk currently is on live or subclass will reign supreme? Thats not how it has to be. A happy medium is possible without these extremes everyone is so worked up about. Balance is when all classes have strengths and weaknesses that roughly are equal albeit different in how they get to the final destination. Currently Sorc has hardly any weaknesses and way too much strength to be on an equal playing field with the rest of the classes. They should tamp down Sorc while buffing others up.
The class masteries should be enticing enough to keep people on a pure class with subclassing being more for utility while giving up power for it.

Put simply the ceiling is way to high for sorc and dk at the moment while the ceiling is so much lower on every other class. I simply want the the lower classes brought up, and the higher classes brought down. That balance can exist above Subclassing and below the demigod level of broken that is dk and to a lesser extent sorc. Because if it isn't, we will all be traipsing around ESO one shotting everything with infinite sustain and invincibility because we will be drowning in so much cheese it would put the Federal cheese reserve to shame at the height of its volume

Firstmep · August 21

Adrastus wrote: »

this guy has to b

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

CalamityCat wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

We def should buff up other classes like arcanist and templar, Doesn't mean we shouldn't tamp down the over performers too like dk and sorc

Then when warden is refreshed you'll have no strong builds to compete with it. Where we could have had strong DKs, WWs and sorcs with other classes getting upgraded with their buffs too. That makes no sense unless they cancel class refreshes. Each time you get a refreshed class it'll just take over because you literally cleared their path with all these nerfs.

i thought this was the plan, bc if they constantly nerf without updated/temporary class mastery whats the point of rework other than to have better graphic visuals.... unless the plan was to make sure you cant animation cancel things at all on the low.

op is a rage baiter always asking for nerfs

Injecting power wasn't really a main objective of refreshes as least as stated by the devs.
Modernizing visuals, and creating a more sensible toolkit that enables older classes to perform well in all roles, while highlighting class fantasy was.

If you look at dk, their dots got stronger, their overall power was distributed more evenly among skill lines, the inhale/ burst stacking playstyle got more pronounced. They also decoupled their sustain from having to use an ultimate.

I think where the rework kinda failed is that in an effort to push dks to do well in all roles, they kinda just decided to give it a lot of everything.
Which then led to the current state.
I hope they learn from this experience, and realise that it's okay for classes to have more pronounced weaknesses.

I'm also still on the mindset that most people like the 2 refreshed specs mainly beacuse they stand above pretty much everything else.

CalamityCat · August 21

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Either we buff all the classes to be outrageous like Dk currently is on live or subclass will reign supreme? Thats not how it has to be. A happy medium is possible without these extremes everyone is so worked up about. Balance is when all classes have strengths and weaknesses that roughly are equal albeit different in how they get to the final destination. Currently Sorc has hardly any weaknesses and way too much strength to be on an equal playing field with the rest of the classes. They should tamp down Sorc while buffing others up.
The class masteries should be enticing enough to keep people on a pure class with subclassing being more for utility while giving up power for it.

Put simply the ceiling is way to high for sorc and dk at the moment while the ceiling is so much lower on every other class. I simply want the the lower classes brought up, and the higher classes brought down. That balance can exist above Subclassing and below the demigod level of broken that is dk and to a lesser extent sorc. Because if it isn't, we will all be traipsing around ESO one shotting everything with infinite sustain and invincibility because we will be drowning in so much cheese it would put the Federal cheese reserve to shame at the height of its volume

Honestly I fought subclass builds with my pure class builds for the year or so they were dominant. I never subclassed in all that time. The difference between the pure classes and competent subclassers was pretty extreme IMHO. You really cannot bring DKs above subclassers without going "ow, that's a strong build!" because to meet that power level you have a build that's going to be the strongest. Subclass was dominant in PvP, so DK had to go above that and ouchie is inevitable. There isn't really a middle ground option that wouldn't have resulted in complaints. Maybe the complaints would have been less dramatic, but to be stronger than subclassers effectively meant stronger than everything.

I think the real issue is the dev reluctance to give stronger class masteries to say the templar or nightblade in the interim so the strong DKs/sorcs have more competition. I really don't feel we need to whack DKs and sorcs when the devs could just stop holding NBs back and unleash those nerfed masteries. I mean they dangled the better NB masteries in front of us. We're still getting adjusted with stealth changes and I think strife is still getting adjusted? I'm reading it all and just thinking why can't you just let me have my little devil cat assassin at full strength and see what happens?

I don't have much PvP experience on a pure templar as she's my latest noob, but I really can't see why they need held back either. Buff masteries for the weaker classes till other players start saying "ouchie!" would be my suggestion. It's probably a good thing I'm not a dev...

Soarora · August 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

"Nooo dont nerf" is what I would say normally. Now though with yet another nerf thread coming up instead I'm just saying to everyone, I told you so. It never ends.

Its like when you're shaving your beard and you took a little too much off on one side, so you try and even it out on the other, except now that side looks too low, and you keep going until you ruin your beard, or you stop and leave it be.

The forums here always choose to keep cutting.

In my opinion they should undo the dk and werewolf nerfs and just keep sorc strong, and then bring up a class or two with class masteries periodically instead of undoing the very point of the class refreshes which is to undermine and and dismantle the subclass meta.

If they cant do that, sorc being nerfed is pretty much inevitable

The forums have become insufferable lately and this is why. It’s all just the same few people posting the same arguments about wanting PvP nerfs (or attacking those people) targeting the rework classes across a bunch of different threads. Where did the fun and interesting ideas go? Why do there need to be so many combat balance threads?

Faltasë · August 21

Congrats, y'all got your Sorc nerfs. Hope ur happy

Wuuffyy · August 21

“ability to stack high resources with better damage (now) and sustain based on the amount of resources they have; sustain that is equivalent to Wretched Vitality at 10k max resources (~equivalent of about 400 or so recov), 2 wrerched vitalities at 20k max resources (about 800 or so ‘recov’), 3 wretched vitalties at 30k max resources (about 1200 or so ‘recov’), 4 at 40k (1600), 5 at 50k (2000), and continued.”

Even post-nerf, at 50k resources this passive equates to roughly 1600 ‘recov’ (new CoE is a 25% nerf to sustain).

That is still the equivalent of FOUR wretched vitalities from a SINGLE passive. I just kind of wanted to let everyone know there.

Reminder also that core of flame if missing a lowly ‘23k mag’ is still:

23000 x 0.12% (this is the tick value per tick post-CoF nerf) which equals one 2760 mag tick instantly and another 2 ticks over 4 seconds which is up to 8,280 mag (not to mention off-resource, healing, burst damage, and proc’ing Molten).

Outside of werewolf, everyone left very much has ‘incredibly high sustain’ when built appropriately.

aLi3nZ · August 22

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

you mean classes that don’t specifically have any skills or class masteries to assist with regen? Which makes the comparison not really valid?

Besides that I play a night blade and Arcanist in PvP and do just fine on sustain because I have build those kits around pulse ganking. The elesus cost is going to hurt those toons though.

Anyway all the whiners got their way. Zos listened and nerfed the class mastery by 25%

Even though I was already wearing wretched vitality back bar or using rokska on top of coe as it was. As I found it necessary particularly in no cp bg and ic when I put all attributes into health which is pretty much the meta.

UntouchableHunter · August 22

Sorcs are OP right now, imagine when we have WW and Dks nerf on 51.

Nobody will stop the Sorcs.

Zyaneth_Bal · August 22

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorcs are OP right now, imagine when we have WW and Dks nerf on 51.

Nobody will stop the Sorcs.

Dk hasn’t been nerfed much. While nerf to coe is significant and sorc is hard carried by coe currently.

Also sorc is not op but eso players will come up with anything to find an excuse to not learn to play, a lost cause.

UntouchableHunter · August 22

Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »

UntouchableHunter wrote: »

Sorcs are OP right now, imagine when we have WW and Dks nerf on 51.

Nobody will stop the Sorcs.

Dk hasn’t been nerfed much. While nerf to coe is significant and sorc is hard carried by coe currently.

Also sorc is not op but eso players will come up with anything to find an excuse to not learn to play, a lost cause.

The reality says you're wrong.

merevie · August 22

Bro, facts are, no matter what they nerf, an experienced giraffe, in their pyjamas, half-cut and on a phone call with their grandma, is STILL going to kill a less player.

Calling for more nerfs just encourages all the rest of us to 'get creative'. And usually that's just new fresh joy for us.

Better to learn to work with known problems then experience the constant rotation of new joys the community will invent.

And. Vengeance is a thing.

hoangdz · August 22

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

He doesn't need to because most of your claims are hyperbole. For example, you said:

1) "Sorc has the best stun, the best mobility, the best passives and class masteries, some of the most burst damage and pressure, infinite sustain"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc has some of the most burst damage and pressure in the game, more than even NB about the same as dk pre nerf AND it can deal that dmg at range, its tankier than most classes, Its the most mobile class in the game. It has the best unblockable and undodgeable stun in the game. It has infinite sustain, The best passives on par with DK, and the best class masteries Better than DK.

These claims are entirely exaggerated, as explained below:

- Pre U50, NBs could casually hit 15-17k crit Spectral Bows with Incap Debuff against good opponents, and upwards of 20k vs poorly built ones. Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter. All you need is a buff tracker, hold block everytime Curse is applied, and you take zero damage. Against a cleanser, Curse is laughably weak lol. I can't tell the number of occassions where I wanted to remove this skill off my bar because it was constantly being cleansed off by a Templar or a Warden with Netch. Sorc's high pressure is also largely tied to layering multiple burst abilities or wearing several proc sets, both of which are more effective on other classes (pre U50 Templar, NB, and Warden, and pre U49 DK)

- Sorc is indeed very tanky right now, but that's ultimately caused by Conservation of Energy providing nearly permanent 2k-4k HPS. That is a balance oversight that needs to be addressed, but pre U50 Sorc was NOT tankier than most classes. Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well. Most people simply aren't good enough to take advantage of the class' defensive toolkit. As a result, those who swapped to Sorc ended up putting it back in the storage because they kept getting farmed by other classes. An average player would have more success playing a Necro or Templar if they wanted to be tanky, as their defensive rotations are super straightforward and mostly consist of defensive heals.

- Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. Every class has free access to maximum movement speed via class abilities (Falcon, Path) or universal ones (RaT). From my testing, it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits.

- Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch. Sustain is definitely above everything else but CoF, but it's not as good as CoF. Nobody uses Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning during subclassing meta because the passives and abilities weren't good. As for class masteries, Warden and DK both have equally good class masteries too.

2) "Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds which are better than anything on other classes"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

On top of this Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds possible on it that are so much better than anything possible on any of the other 4 classes that its such an outlier it needs hammered back down along with DK and WW. Like the dot sorcs for instance, its just the same old same old thing where you build tanky, let your dot procs do the damage and kill everything and if someone does try to burst you just streak away and hit your new burst heal from scribing that sorc should not have.

It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec.

3) "Sorc having Wield Soul is unfair"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc's whole thing was it was very strong in most aspects but lacked a burst heal unless they went with the pet. Now people just use the wield soul burst heal and i don't think sorc having access to this is fair without a rebalance to the rest of the class or some buffs to the other scribed abilitie

Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much.

ZOS_Icy · August 22

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

The Elder Scrolls Online Team

Daoin · August 22

can you all not just change char when you start feeling too op ?

Panderbander · August 22

Daoin wrote: »

can you all not just change char when you start feeling too op ?

It's not about challenge or anything like that. It's about using the most broken thing at the moment and thinking they're good.

XVestigeXx · August 23

Faltasë wrote: »

Congrats, y'all got your Sorc nerfs. Hope ur happy

I am. I think it might need to go a touch further but we will see

XVestigeXx · August 23

aLi3nZ wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

you mean classes that don’t specifically have any skills or class masteries to assist with regen? Which makes the comparison not really valid?

Besides that I play a night blade and Arcanist in PvP and do just fine on sustain because I have build those kits around pulse ganking. The elesus cost is going to hurt those toons though.

Anyway all the whiners got their way. Zos listened and nerfed the class mastery by 25%

Even though I was already wearing wretched vitality back bar or using rokska on top of coe as it was. As I found it necessary particularly in no cp bg and ic when I put all attributes into health which is pretty much the meta.

Lol I-I don't even know where to start with this hahahaha

XVestigeXx · August 23

merevie wrote: »

Bro, facts are, no matter what they nerf, an experienced giraffe, in their pyjamas, half-cut and on a phone call with their grandma, is STILL going to kill a less player.

Calling for more nerfs just encourages all the rest of us to 'get creative'. And usually that's just new fresh joy for us.

Better to learn to work with known problems then experience the constant rotation of new joys the community will invent.

And. Vengeance is a thing.

Good. I think that incentivizes more healthy play. The whole point of balance is to get people to be creative. I regularly go 20 and 0 in BGs on off meta classes and enjoy cyrodil 1vxing but its gotten to be annoying because people don't have to be creative anymore. They just have to play a dk, a sorc, or a sorc ww.

XVestigeXx · August 23

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

He doesn't need to because most of your claims are hyperbole. For example, you said:

1) "Sorc has the best stun, the best mobility, the best passives and class masteries, some of the most burst damage and pressure, infinite sustain"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc has some of the most burst damage and pressure in the game, more than even NB about the same as dk pre nerf AND it can deal that dmg at range, its tankier than most classes, Its the most mobile class in the game. It has the best unblockable and undodgeable stun in the game. It has infinite sustain, The best passives on par with DK, and the best class masteries Better than DK.

These claims are entirely exaggerated, as explained below:

- Pre U50, NBs could casually hit 15-17k crit Spectral Bows with Incap Debuff against good opponents, and upwards of 20k vs poorly built ones. Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter. All you need is a buff tracker, hold block everytime Curse is applied, and you take zero damage. Against a cleanser, Curse is laughably weak lol. I can't tell the number of occassions where I wanted to remove this skill off my bar because it was constantly being cleansed off by a Templar or a Warden with Netch. Sorc's high pressure is also largely tied to layering multiple burst abilities or wearing several proc sets, both of which are more effective on other classes (pre U50 Templar, NB, and Warden, and pre U49 DK)

- Sorc is indeed very tanky right now, but that's ultimately caused by Conservation of Energy providing nearly permanent 2k-4k HPS. That is a balance oversight that needs to be addressed, but pre U50 Sorc was NOT tankier than most classes. Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well. Most people simply aren't good enough to take advantage of the class' defensive toolkit. As a result, those who swapped to Sorc ended up putting it back in the storage because they kept getting farmed by other classes. An average player would have more success playing a Necro or Templar if they wanted to be tanky, as their defensive rotations are super straightforward and mostly consist of defensive heals.

- Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. Every class has free access to maximum movement speed via class abilities (Falcon, Path) or universal ones (RaT). From my testing, it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits.

- Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch. Sustain is definitely above everything else but CoF, but it's not as good as CoF. Nobody uses Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning during subclassing meta because the passives and abilities weren't good. As for class masteries, Warden and DK both have equally good class masteries too.

2) "Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds which are better than anything on other classes"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

On top of this Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds possible on it that are so much better than anything possible on any of the other 4 classes that its such an outlier it needs hammered back down along with DK and WW. Like the dot sorcs for instance, its just the same old same old thing where you build tanky, let your dot procs do the damage and kill everything and if someone does try to burst you just streak away and hit your new burst heal from scribing that sorc should not have.

It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec.

3) "Sorc having Wield Soul is unfair"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc's whole thing was it was very strong in most aspects but lacked a burst heal unless they went with the pet. Now people just use the wield soul burst heal and i don't think sorc having access to this is fair without a rebalance to the rest of the class or some buffs to the other scribed abilitie

Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much.

Bud, do you know how to play sorc? I don't even play that much sorc and I know you are either being disingenuous for the argument's sake or you don't pvp on sorc.

" Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter"
This example highlights poor rotation. Any Sorc worth their salt is stacking all this into a streak which is unblockable and undodgeable and does about 5k dmg off the top of my head in an aoe. So, much harder to counter than a nb combo which can be both blocked and roll dodged while this sorc combo does the same if not more dmg without an ult. Throw shooting star in there or overload and its even more disgusting and so much more unavoidable.

"Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well"
Not anymore because of calculated defense, CoE, and the fact Sorc has a burst heal in wield soul - something the class was built around not having at all.

"Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits."
This isn't true because every sorc has major expedition and can streak multiple times because the cost increase doesn't really do much. I can streak like 8 times back to back on my sorc. its fine sorc is fast, its just they have everything else too on top of this speed with no downsides or lack of something in another area.

"Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch." Storm calling has some of the best passives in the game, Dark magic is really good for passives you should go read them. Daedric summoning is the weakest imo but still has one or two good ones for non pet sorcs. Sorc just has better passives than most classes. One example is NB magicka flood compared to expert summoner. NB has to slot an ability from that skill line on both bars to gain the effect from that passive while sorc gets it for just putting the skill point in

"It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec."
These meta builds are even worse on a sorc because if they can just dip in and out of combat with streak and the absurd tankiness the class has now. They can literally just streak out, hit thier burst heal they were never intended to have, then dip back in all while stunning everyone on their way in and out with their AOE unblockable, undodgeable stun.

"Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much."
No. Sorc was built around not having a burst heal and had to use things like crit surge and shields and vigor but they were given lots of power and concessions in other areas because of it. Now they have access to wield soul without having those other concessions looked at. This has fundamentally made sorc OP because they now have something they were built around not having. On top of this, wield soul is a better burst heal than some class burst heals like necro's for example. Either sorc should not have access to the heal version of this ability or the whole class needs to be revisited with wield soul in mind. Because it doesn't matter if its good or bad compared to other burst heals, sorc was never intended to have it.

W Zos nerfing sorc this patch! Love the feedback based changes! This is awesome! Lets keep it going!!

Luneca · August 23

XVestigeXx wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

He doesn't need to because most of your claims are hyperbole. For example, you said:

1) "Sorc has the best stun, the best mobility, the best passives and class masteries, some of the most burst damage and pressure, infinite sustain"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc has some of the most burst damage and pressure in the game, more than even NB about the same as dk pre nerf AND it can deal that dmg at range, its tankier than most classes, Its the most mobile class in the game. It has the best unblockable and undodgeable stun in the game. It has infinite sustain, The best passives on par with DK, and the best class masteries Better than DK.

These claims are entirely exaggerated, as explained below:

- Pre U50, NBs could casually hit 15-17k crit Spectral Bows with Incap Debuff against good opponents, and upwards of 20k vs poorly built ones. Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter. All you need is a buff tracker, hold block everytime Curse is applied, and you take zero damage. Against a cleanser, Curse is laughably weak lol. I can't tell the number of occassions where I wanted to remove this skill off my bar because it was constantly being cleansed off by a Templar or a Warden with Netch. Sorc's high pressure is also largely tied to layering multiple burst abilities or wearing several proc sets, both of which are more effective on other classes (pre U50 Templar, NB, and Warden, and pre U49 DK)

- Sorc is indeed very tanky right now, but that's ultimately caused by Conservation of Energy providing nearly permanent 2k-4k HPS. That is a balance oversight that needs to be addressed, but pre U50 Sorc was NOT tankier than most classes. Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well. Most people simply aren't good enough to take advantage of the class' defensive toolkit. As a result, those who swapped to Sorc ended up putting it back in the storage because they kept getting farmed by other classes. An average player would have more success playing a Necro or Templar if they wanted to be tanky, as their defensive rotations are super straightforward and mostly consist of defensive heals.

- Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. Every class has free access to maximum movement speed via class abilities (Falcon, Path) or universal ones (RaT). From my testing, it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits.

- Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch. Sustain is definitely above everything else but CoF, but it's not as good as CoF. Nobody uses Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning during subclassing meta because the passives and abilities weren't good. As for class masteries, Warden and DK both have equally good class masteries too.

2) "Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds which are better than anything on other classes"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

On top of this Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds possible on it that are so much better than anything possible on any of the other 4 classes that its such an outlier it needs hammered back down along with DK and WW. Like the dot sorcs for instance, its just the same old same old thing where you build tanky, let your dot procs do the damage and kill everything and if someone does try to burst you just streak away and hit your new burst heal from scribing that sorc should not have.

It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec.

3) "Sorc having Wield Soul is unfair"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc's whole thing was it was very strong in most aspects but lacked a burst heal unless they went with the pet. Now people just use the wield soul burst heal and i don't think sorc having access to this is fair without a rebalance to the rest of the class or some buffs to the other scribed abilitie

Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much.

Bud, do you know how to play sorc? I don't even play that much sorc and I know you are either being disingenuous for the argument's sake or you don't pvp on sorc.

" Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter"
This example highlights poor rotation. Any Sorc worth their salt is stacking all this into a streak which is unblockable and undodgeable and does about 5k dmg off the top of my head in an aoe. So, much harder to counter than a nb combo which can be both blocked and roll dodged while this sorc combo does the same if not more dmg without an ult. Throw shooting star in there or overload and its even more disgusting and so much more unavoidable.

"Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well"
Not anymore because of calculated defense, CoE, and the fact Sorc has a burst heal in wield soul - something the class was built around not having at all.

"Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits."
This isn't true because every sorc has major expedition and can streak multiple times because the cost increase doesn't really do much. I can streak like 8 times back to back on my sorc. its fine sorc is fast, its just they have everything else too on top of this speed with no downsides or lack of something in another area.

"Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch." Storm calling has some of the best passives in the game, Dark magic is really good for passives you should go read them. Daedric summoning is the weakest imo but still has one or two good ones for non pet sorcs. Sorc just has better passives than most classes. One example is NB magicka flood compared to expert summoner. NB has to slot an ability from that skill line on both bars to gain the effect from that passive while sorc gets it for just putting the skill point in

"It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec."
These meta builds are even worse on a sorc because if they can just dip in and out of combat with streak and the absurd tankiness the class has now. They can literally just streak out, hit thier burst heal they were never intended to have, then dip back in all while stunning everyone on their way in and out with their AOE unblockable, undodgeable stun.

"Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much."
No. Sorc was built around not having a burst heal and had to use things like crit surge and shields and vigor but they were given lots of power and concessions in other areas because of it. Now they have access to wield soul without having those other concessions looked at. This has fundamentally made sorc OP because they now have something they were built around not having. On top of this, wield soul is a better burst heal than some class burst heals like necro's for example. Either sorc should not have access to the heal version of this ability or the whole class needs to be revisited with wield soul in mind. Because it doesn't matter if its good or bad compared to other burst heals, sorc was never intended to have it.

W Zos nerfing sorc this patch! Love the feedback based changes! This is awesome! Lets keep it going!!

ZOS is doing W balancing for once. I don't agree with it all, but it looks like they ARE listening or have actually stepped into PvP to see how ridiculous some things are. I sent feedback about my recursive sorc after killing people in 2 seconds on live with one skill, and ZOS nerfed it the next day.

Wow! How efficient. It may have helped that many players promised to report me for "cheating" after getting destroyed by it.

Haizz, now I'm down another recursive build. Only 2 left. This time on Warden.

Firstmep · August 23

On the whole sorc not having a burst heal, I personally know quite a few high levels sorcs that run vibrant shroud. It costs about the same as honor the dead, albeit heals for less, but it does apply major main to enemies and minor vitality to self and allies, it's guaranteed to heal you and it synergizes very well with calculated defense, since the vitality improves the shield from the mastery and the shield gives a brief protection while you heal yourself.

Roztlin45 · August 23

In 2017 players would die in base game dungeons. Some could not even finish. Now a level 20 new player can almost solo these base game dungeons. Why ? Power creep! Years and years of whatever expansion, DLC, Sets, mythic or other items they(zos) are directed on for sale (new release) gets a major buff. Sometimes this is ridiculously OP, most players warned that this would "break the game" over and over. All to Deft ears. When the sales calmed down, and the whining became loud then the Big nerf (rug pull). The game was just all over the place at times. Recently didn't the night market Mythic ring break PVP? What about the WW. It doesn't take a genius to see all the WW in PVP now. When the sale point is over. Here come the nerfs. LOL expect it.
Here is the answer :
1)Set a metric with software built to compare the new changes against ALL the other factors it would effect. In woodworking or machining it is called a jig. Never allow to number to exceed one over the other. The "best" would then be based on player skill not smash win buttons so the game plays for you.
2) listen to players feedback on the PTS and actually look into changes , yes it may cost playing the contractors again for change but worth it through player satisfaction!
3) Play YOUR(ZOS) game on the live server anonymously or pay people to play it anonymously! Send feedback. Video / Screen shots and cmx logs. You would know what is OP , broken , pain points or not.

I don't blame players asking for nerfs nor do I blame players not wanting them. I blame this system of wild unvetted change based on a marketing strategy that is NOT good for ESO long term. Yes temporary sales number look good but in long term is death by a thousand cuts. As we are today. Thanks for your time.

Luneca · August 23

Roztlin45 wrote: »

In 2017 players would die in base game dungeons. Some could not even finish. Now a level 20 new player can almost solo these base game dungeons. Why ? Power creep! Years and years of whatever expansion, DLC, Sets, mythic or other items they(zos) are directed on for sale (new release) gets a major buff. Sometimes this is ridiculously OP, most players warned that this would "break the game" over and over. All to Deft ears. When the sales calmed down, and the whining became loud then the Big nerf (rug pull). The game was just all over the place at times. Recently didn't the night market Mythic ring break PVP? What about the WW. It doesn't take a genius to see all the WW in PVP now. When the sale point is over. Here come the nerfs. LOL expect it.
Here is the answer :
1)Set a metric with software built to compare the new changes against ALL the other factors it would effect. In woodworking or machining it is called a jig. Never allow to number to exceed one over the other. The "best" would then be based on player skill not smash win buttons so the game plays for you.
2) listen to players feedback on the PTS and actually look into changes , yes it may cost playing the contractors again for change but worth it through player satisfaction!
3) Play YOUR(ZOS) game on the live server anonymously or pay people to play it anonymously! Send feedback. Video / Screen shots and cmx logs. You would know what is OP , broken , pain points or not.

I don't blame players asking for nerfs nor do I blame players not wanting them. I blame this system of wild unvetted change based on a marketing strategy that is NOT good for ESO long term. Yes temporary sales number look good but in long term is death by a thousand cuts. As we are today. Thanks for your time.

They also need to go back to rules-based balancing and stop the "rule-breaker" stuff or at least tone it down. Rule breakers simply mean the balance won't be there for the item being discussed or proposed to be added to the game.

While it's not always a problem...ah, hold on if I start talking too much we are going to get some nerfs. Let's leave it at that for now.

hoangdz · August 23

XVestigeXx wrote: »

hoangdz wrote: »

XVestigeXx wrote: »

aLi3nZ wrote: »

That is a remarkably long balance argument for something that falls apart after about thirty seconds with a calculator.

With 25,000 Max Magicka, Conservation of Energy restores exactly 500 Magicka per activation because it returns 2% of Max Magicka. Assuming one qualifying activation every second, that is 2,000 Magicka over four seconds, equivalent to 1,000 displayed Magicka Recovery.

That is not “infinite sustain.” A 2,700 cost ability still consumes 2,200 Magicka after the refund. Haunting Curse costs 2,970 and still consumes 2,470. Apparently “infinite” now means “still losing thousands of Magicka.”

Now compare that with Heart of Flame.

On live, Heart restores 15% of missing Magicka three times. If a DK remains around 50% missing Magicka, each tick restores 1,875, giving 5,625 gross over four seconds. At 75% missing, it restores 2,812 per tick, giving approximately 8,438 gross.

Even after subtracting its roughly 3,510 casting cost, that is approximately:

50% missing: 2,115 net Magicka

75% missing: 4,928 net Magicka

The Update 51 PTS reduction to 12% still gives:

50% missing: 4,500 gross and approximately 990 net

75% missing: 6,750 gross and approximately 3,240 net

Meanwhile, Conservation gives 2,000 across four ordinary activations at 25,000 Max Magicka. Heart also restores Stamina, heals the DK three times, and ends with area damage. Pretending Conservation exists in some completely different numerical universe requires ignoring what Heart actually does.

Damage comparisons are not helping this argument either. Properly prepared Whips can hit players for more than 15,000 while a typical Crystal Fragments proc lands around 7,000 against the same sort of target. Fragments is single target, depends upon a 33% proc, and its unprocced version has a cast time. Haunting Curse does have a small five metre splash, but only one Curse can be active at once. That is hardly comparable with the broad area pressure available throughout the DK toolkit.

Streak is excellent mobility, but repeated casts rapidly increase its cost. Rune Cage is unblockable, but delayed and immediately breakable. Healing Soul is a universal scribed ability available to every class. If that script is overtuned, then adjust the script. Using a universally available heal as justification for nerfing Sorcerer damage, sustain, defence and mobility simultaneously makes no logical sense.

This reads less like balance analysis and more like a list of everything that annoyed you during the last Battleground. Seeing many Sorcerers is not numerical evidence, and calling a 500 point conditional refund “infinite sustain” does not magically make it true.

DK already has substantially stronger depleted resource recovery, huge Whip burst, extensive area pressure, strong healing and powerful defensive tools. Sorcerer does not need another nerf simply because DK and Werewolf are finally receiving targeted adjustments. There is no convincing numerical case for it here.

Ok now take your calculator, and a non dk non sorc class to pvp and let me know if your calculations match up with your experience actually playing the game. Let me know how it goes.

He doesn't need to because most of your claims are hyperbole. For example, you said:

1) "Sorc has the best stun, the best mobility, the best passives and class masteries, some of the most burst damage and pressure, infinite sustain"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc has some of the most burst damage and pressure in the game, more than even NB about the same as dk pre nerf AND it can deal that dmg at range, its tankier than most classes, Its the most mobile class in the game. It has the best unblockable and undodgeable stun in the game. It has infinite sustain, The best passives on par with DK, and the best class masteries Better than DK.

These claims are entirely exaggerated, as explained below:

- Pre U50, NBs could casually hit 15-17k crit Spectral Bows with Incap Debuff against good opponents, and upwards of 20k vs poorly built ones. Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter. All you need is a buff tracker, hold block everytime Curse is applied, and you take zero damage. Against a cleanser, Curse is laughably weak lol. I can't tell the number of occassions where I wanted to remove this skill off my bar because it was constantly being cleansed off by a Templar or a Warden with Netch. Sorc's high pressure is also largely tied to layering multiple burst abilities or wearing several proc sets, both of which are more effective on other classes (pre U50 Templar, NB, and Warden, and pre U49 DK)

- Sorc is indeed very tanky right now, but that's ultimately caused by Conservation of Energy providing nearly permanent 2k-4k HPS. That is a balance oversight that needs to be addressed, but pre U50 Sorc was NOT tankier than most classes. Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well. Most people simply aren't good enough to take advantage of the class' defensive toolkit. As a result, those who swapped to Sorc ended up putting it back in the storage because they kept getting farmed by other classes. An average player would have more success playing a Necro or Templar if they wanted to be tanky, as their defensive rotations are super straightforward and mostly consist of defensive heals.

- Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. Every class has free access to maximum movement speed via class abilities (Falcon, Path) or universal ones (RaT). From my testing, it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits.

- Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch. Sustain is definitely above everything else but CoF, but it's not as good as CoF. Nobody uses Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning during subclassing meta because the passives and abilities weren't good. As for class masteries, Warden and DK both have equally good class masteries too.

2) "Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds which are better than anything on other classes"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

On top of this Sorc has some of the most cancerous builds possible on it that are so much better than anything possible on any of the other 4 classes that its such an outlier it needs hammered back down along with DK and WW. Like the dot sorcs for instance, its just the same old same old thing where you build tanky, let your dot procs do the damage and kill everything and if someone does try to burst you just streak away and hit your new burst heal from scribing that sorc should not have.

It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec.

3) "Sorc having Wield Soul is unfair"

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Sorc's whole thing was it was very strong in most aspects but lacked a burst heal unless they went with the pet. Now people just use the wield soul burst heal and i don't think sorc having access to this is fair without a rebalance to the rest of the class or some buffs to the other scribed abilitie

Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much.

Bud, do you know how to play sorc? I don't even play that much sorc and I know you are either being disingenuous for the argument's sake or you don't pvp on sorc.

" Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter"
This example highlights poor rotation. Any Sorc worth their salt is stacking all this into a streak which is unblockable and undodgeable and does about 5k dmg off the top of my head in an aoe. So, much harder to counter than a nb combo which can be both blocked and roll dodged while this sorc combo does the same if not more dmg without an ult. Throw shooting star in there or overload and its even more disgusting and so much more unavoidable.

"Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well"
Not anymore because of calculated defense, CoE, and the fact Sorc has a burst heal in wield soul - something the class was built around not having at all.

"Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits."
This isn't true because every sorc has major expedition and can streak multiple times because the cost increase doesn't really do much. I can streak like 8 times back to back on my sorc. its fine sorc is fast, its just they have everything else too on top of this speed with no downsides or lack of something in another area.

"Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch." Storm calling has some of the best passives in the game, Dark magic is really good for passives you should go read them. Daedric summoning is the weakest imo but still has one or two good ones for non pet sorcs. Sorc just has better passives than most classes. One example is NB magicka flood compared to expert summoner. NB has to slot an ability from that skill line on both bars to gain the effect from that passive while sorc gets it for just putting the skill point in

"It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec."
These meta builds are even worse on a sorc because if they can just dip in and out of combat with streak and the absurd tankiness the class has now. They can literally just streak out, hit thier burst heal they were never intended to have, then dip back in all while stunning everyone on their way in and out with their AOE unblockable, undodgeable stun.

"Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much."
No. Sorc was built around not having a burst heal and had to use things like crit surge and shields and vigor but they were given lots of power and concessions in other areas because of it. Now they have access to wield soul without having those other concessions looked at. This has fundamentally made sorc OP because they now have something they were built around not having. On top of this, wield soul is a better burst heal than some class burst heals like necro's for example. Either sorc should not have access to the heal version of this ability or the whole class needs to be revisited with wield soul in mind. Because it doesn't matter if its good or bad compared to other burst heals, sorc was never intended to have it.

W Zos nerfing sorc this patch! Love the feedback based changes! This is awesome! Lets keep it going!!

"Do you know how to play Sorc?"

Yea I do. I'm a top Sorc on PC NA. Do you?

hoangdz · August 23

XVestigeXx wrote: »

Bud, do you know how to play sorc? I don't even play that much sorc and I know you are either being disingenuous for the argument's sake or you don't pvp on sorc.

Yea, I do. I main the class and have several 1vX videos over the years. I've also released a 1vX burst Sorc build at the start of U50:

https://youtu.be/ODPAtReNsWo?si=_IAEfODY467-Oty9

https://youtu.be/R_iDxyTRgpg?si=gwQea7qNb79f8iRh

https://youtu.be/ftPQJpM0RnI?si=5JF2Fpk7eA6JzLuT

https://youtu.be/DLz-kYWvuAw?si=b7Th6jsZ2XYVjy_V

https://youtu.be/7wX_HyvG9Ig?si=3dIzbiqGs7vu5MqD

https://youtu.be/7Rgd_Floni4?si=HN-ilb2103-ap7EF

I am not being disingenuous, nor do I lack experience in my class. If you doubt my level of experience on the class, I am always down to test that with you in game, either on PC NA or on the PTS.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

" Sorc, at best, were only able to deal ~8k crit Curses and 11k crit Crystal Fragments. Since Curse is incredibly telegraphed, blockable, and purgable, it's one of the easiest skills to counter"

This example highlights poor rotation. Any Sorc worth their salt is stacking all this into a streak which is unblockable and undodgeable and does about 5k dmg off the top of my head in an aoe. So, much harder to counter than a nb combo which can be both blocked and roll dodged while this sorc combo does the same if not more dmg without an ult. Throw shooting star in there or overload and its even more disgusting and so much more unavoidable.

LOL. Your entire premise is a Sorc can somehow ideally land everything, and that their opponents, by implication, are not good enough to avoid the combo.

From my 7 years of dueling on Sorc versus players of various skill levels on different classes, that combo only works agains bad ones. Any good Templar/Warden will cleanse off the Curse before you can get your combo off due to Curse's telegraph. Any good DK will have casted Wings to mitigate 50% of Crystal Fragment's damage. Any good NB will have casted Cloak before the Curse goes off to mitigate the incoming Crystal Fragment. A simple block and backstep will also suffice to mitigate the combo.

Your example is nothing but pure theory in an ideal scenario where the Sorc is good and the opponent is bad. Simple as that.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

"Sorc is a high APM class with mostly offensive heals, which requires top tier mechanics to survive well"
Not anymore because of calculated defense, CoE, and the fact Sorc has a burst heal in wield soul - something the class was built around not having at all.

??? Are we playing the same game? Calculated Defense requires casting Sorc abilities and only lasts 0.5s, while CoE demands actively using abilities/core combat abilities to proc the heal. Both class masteries need constant APM to maintain the shield/heal. This is literally the definition of a high APM class lol...

The burst heal is universal, so stop trying to make it like the class is at fault. Going by your logic, everyone should not have access to unnamed movement speed buffs and Minor Expedition because Sorc was thematically the fastest class in the game. You're conveniently leaving that part out and painting Sorc in a bad light lol.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

"Sorc is indeed the most mobile class in the game, but only due to Streak granting access to higher terrain, and even then, Streak loses effectiveness against players stacking movement speed. it is not difficult to chase down a Sorc in Cyrodiil if you invest in Major/Minor Expedition, Celerity, or a couple Swift traits."
This isn't true because every sorc has major expedition and can streak multiple times because the cost increase doesn't really do much. I can streak like 8 times back to back on my sorc. its fine sorc is fast, its just they have everything else too on top of this speed with no downsides or lack of something in another area.

"Every Sorc has Major Expedition"

LOL. From what? Boundless Storm? Nobody runs that morph because Hurricane is better. Or did you mean Race Against Time? Oh, there has not been bar space for that skill up until U50 where CoE finally allowed the class to drop Dark Deal lol.

You can streak 8 times back to back? Sure, at what cost? At a generous 2500 mag cost for Streak, 8 consecutive casts would have exhausted 43100 magicka. Even if I account for 900 magicka return per CoE proc, you would have lost 35900 magicka. A stamsorc with ~25k max mag will never be able to cast Streak 8 times in a row, and a magsorc casting Streak 8 times in a row would be dangerously low in mag unless it stacked ~45k+ max mag AND ran Dark Conversion, which defeats the purpose of using CoE in the first place (due to CoE freeing up an extra slot for a more useful skill).

XVestigeXx wrote: »

"Infinite sustain, best passives, and best class masteries are a stretch." Storm calling has some of the best passives in the game, Dark magic is really good for passives you should go read them. Daedric summoning is the weakest imo but still has one or two good ones for non pet sorcs. Sorc just has better passives than most classes. One example is NB magicka flood compared to expert summoner. NB has to slot an ability from that skill line on both bars to gain the effect from that passive while sorc gets it for just putting the skill point in

Yes, I know how Dark Magic and Storm Calling work. I also know that you are being very disingenuous with your claim that "Sorc just has better passives than most classes".

A simple look into subclassing meta shows Storm Calling as the only line people use for their subclassed builds, and it was often purely chosen for the utility. Nobody picked Dark Magic or Daedric Summoning when Animal Companion, Assassination, Aedric Spear, or Ardent Flame exist.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

"It's not like the game has a plethora of meta builds to choose from lol... The same cancerous builds on Sorc are also used by other classes. DK, WW, Necro, Templar, etc. all use them if they want a pressure spec."
These meta builds are even worse on a sorc because if they can just dip in and out of combat with streak and the absurd tankiness the class has now. They can literally just streak out, hit thier burst heal they were never intended to have, then dip back in all while stunning everyone on their way in and out with their AOE unblockable, undodgeable stun.

Lol. A DK and Templar pre U49 would farm a Sorc in the same build.

XVestigeXx wrote: »

"Wield Soul is a universal heal. Ask for a nerf to it then if you think it elevated Sorc's defense too much."
No. Sorc was built around not having a burst heal and had to use things like crit surge and shields and vigor but they were given lots of power and concessions in other areas because of it. Now they have access to wield soul without having those other concessions looked at. This has fundamentally made sorc OP because they now have something they were built around not having. On top of this, wield soul is a better burst heal than some class burst heals like necro's for example. Either sorc should not have access to the heal version of this ability or the whole class needs to be revisited with wield soul in mind. Because it doesn't matter if its good or bad compared to other burst heals, sorc was never intended to have it.

DK and Templar were built as the stand-your-ground classes yet they can be seen casually moving at the speed cap in Cyrodiil. NB was not built around being tanky yet it was some of the tankiest specs in the game with Major + Minor Cowardice, etc. The list goes on. Again, if I used your logic, every class in the game would need to have something stripped away because their drawbacks were eventually removed.

To be honest, I think you just have a very biased agenda towards Sorc lol. What's annoying is that the information you presented in your arguments is mostly surface level, and most people do not bother to dive deeper nor have enough experience to confirm your analysis.

A lot of people on the forums have seen me in game, like @Turtle_Bot , @React , @Alchimiste1 , etc. and know what I am talking about. Sorc does need adjusments, and I am glad ZOS did not use a sledgehammer to nerf its class masteries. However, with the way you laid out your case like that, it does not feel like a combat balance suggestion, but rather a list of things that did not go your way in game lol.

BardokRedSnow · August 23

Faltasë wrote: »

Congrats, y'all got your Sorc nerfs. Hope ur happy

They’re so minor lol I would barely call them a nerf but besides that these forums are never happy.